Where's the beef
by Pat Wilson · 07/03/2005 (9:43 am) · 113 comments
I was reading Penny Arcade today, and they mentioned a new game called Eets, from Klei Entertainment. I downloaded this game and said, "Wow this is awesome," at first, then I said, "You could totally do this in Torque2D in about a month." So I got to thinking...Torque2D has been out for only few months now and if you look in the "Show Off" forum there is already a ton of stuff there. In contrast, Torque has been out for how many years and we have: RocketBowl, Think Tanks, Lore, Orbz and Marble Blast. In the timespan since Torque has been released, games like Gish have been started and finished. Torque has gone from...well, the mess that was Tribes 2 source to a well-documented and usable engine. Indies have gotten Torque games on the Xbox, handhelds, PCs everywhere, bundle deals with Apple, the content packs from BraveTree, Spencer and Tim added instant content, the RTS pack added instant gameplay, TSE is now next-gen console ready...so where's the beef, people? There are a lot of projects that are in progress, but it seems like nothing ever comes of them. It's not that it's easy to finish a game, it's tough, but it's like a trenches charge. Send a bunch of guys over the trenches and some of them will make it to the next one. They may not be the best, but they were the ones who made it. It seems like there is a machine-gun somewhere in this community, though. So maybe the title of this should be, "Where's the machine-gun."
There are a lot of Torque licenses out there, so I must assume that there are enough licensees out there to make a few games, lack of developers is not the issue.
So maybe it's documentation. When Torque was first released, there was next to no documentation. Every year adds a large amount of resources, content packs, and documentation. Each year there is no increase in games produced, so I must assume that lack of documentation is not the issue.
GarageGames went heads-down on tech after Marble Blast, in an attempt to mature the technology after offering the proof-of-concept game so that the tech would always be ready for people to follow. Torque has improved by leaps and bounds, we now offer next-generation technology, the best 2d technology on the market, and the best tech licence on the market for all our products. Inadequate technology must not be the issue.
So what is it, people? What exactly do we need to do to get more indy games out there?
There are a lot of Torque licenses out there, so I must assume that there are enough licensees out there to make a few games, lack of developers is not the issue.
So maybe it's documentation. When Torque was first released, there was next to no documentation. Every year adds a large amount of resources, content packs, and documentation. Each year there is no increase in games produced, so I must assume that lack of documentation is not the issue.
GarageGames went heads-down on tech after Marble Blast, in an attempt to mature the technology after offering the proof-of-concept game so that the tech would always be ready for people to follow. Torque has improved by leaps and bounds, we now offer next-generation technology, the best 2d technology on the market, and the best tech licence on the market for all our products. Inadequate technology must not be the issue.
So what is it, people? What exactly do we need to do to get more indy games out there?
About the author
#102
I haven't had a problem with docs or art pipeline at all.
The only reason I haven't put out a game is because of my own complete lack of programming and MilkShape skills. Plus this is just a hobby for me so I only spend a very small amount of time on it and I spend more time playing my prototypes than actually working on them, I love it, making games is a game for me I started with no skills but have had great fun learning. Thanks GG.
07/12/2005 (10:46 am)
Wow, Great thread, allot of interesting comments, some depressing others inspirational and amusing.Quote:Is it just a waste of time and resources to continue to keep our primary focus on the indy community?When I read this my heart skipped a beat then stoped.
Quote:Jeff said : you can rest assured that as long as the founders of GG are still in control of the company we will be supporting indies, hobbiests, personal and educational markets.?My heart restarts.
Quote:Ben said : We will improve the quality of our products, documentation, community, etc. until every developer here has no choice but to successfully make a game. ;)Great comment:) this put a smile on my face for the rest of the thread, keep up the good work:)
I haven't had a problem with docs or art pipeline at all.
The only reason I haven't put out a game is because of my own complete lack of programming and MilkShape skills. Plus this is just a hobby for me so I only spend a very small amount of time on it and I spend more time playing my prototypes than actually working on them, I love it, making games is a game for me I started with no skills but have had great fun learning. Thanks GG.
#103
07/16/2005 (3:32 am)
I think the majority of people in this community don't do this as a job but more of a hobby. Real life commitments take most time and hit development time hard
#104
So now I am in a Game Prototyping course for the summer. We use Virtools. Myself and three other students managed to build a section of a stylized medievil city with over 40 buildings, a cathedral, streets, and a few furnished interiors within a month, without having any Virtools experience. I am talking fully textured with texture baked global illumination, shadow maps, and normal maps. Adding animation is also a breeze.
What made it so easy? Despite the fact that we use different 3D apps like Max, Maya, and XSI (me), all we have to do is build the models and interiors then texture and animate them in our app and export it. After that it loads right up in Virtools where it can be placed. It is going just as well for the character modellers/animators too.
I am not trying to make this a Torque vs. Virtools reply. But maybe you should check out what other engines are doing. Also, I should mention that the quality of the Virtools documention is amazing. I am not just talking about the manual either, but I mean the way it is implemented into the application. Of course Virtools costs a lot more too, unless you get the educational version like I did, which is perfectly fine to prototype with.
07/20/2005 (10:51 am)
The last time I played with Torque my main issue was with the Art Pipeline. I kept thinking the problem was me, because if you mention that you have issues with the Art Pipeline people will say it's you, not Torque. But there really needs to be some focus on this area because the amount of art that goes into a 3D game is immense and game artists want to be able to create, not learn new clunky tools and constantly troubleshoot.So now I am in a Game Prototyping course for the summer. We use Virtools. Myself and three other students managed to build a section of a stylized medievil city with over 40 buildings, a cathedral, streets, and a few furnished interiors within a month, without having any Virtools experience. I am talking fully textured with texture baked global illumination, shadow maps, and normal maps. Adding animation is also a breeze.
What made it so easy? Despite the fact that we use different 3D apps like Max, Maya, and XSI (me), all we have to do is build the models and interiors then texture and animate them in our app and export it. After that it loads right up in Virtools where it can be placed. It is going just as well for the character modellers/animators too.
I am not trying to make this a Torque vs. Virtools reply. But maybe you should check out what other engines are doing. Also, I should mention that the quality of the Virtools documention is amazing. I am not just talking about the manual either, but I mean the way it is implemented into the application. Of course Virtools costs a lot more too, unless you get the educational version like I did, which is perfectly fine to prototype with.
#105
http://www.devmaster.net/engines/list.php?search_id=5b54a28d275b49ee7c8e9a760c90b40d
Too expensive, don't you think?
07/21/2005 (1:42 am)
Virtools costs: $9500 !!!!http://www.devmaster.net/engines/list.php?search_id=5b54a28d275b49ee7c8e9a760c90b40d
Too expensive, don't you think?
#106
(See what faith I have in you GG guys!)
07/21/2005 (4:38 am)
That doesn't mean that you can't study the tools, and the GUI, and the Art pipeline and then duplicate the ease of use... It only means that Virtools is going to lose a LOT of business when GG comes out with a solution that is as easy to use, has almost the same power and sells for a fraction of the cost.(See what faith I have in you GG guys!)
#107
I have noticed that Indie developers are small groups of people working in their spare time. I hope GG looks into ways to increase productivity for these developers. Improving the Art Pipeline will help. Add up the number of assets artists have to create, import, then debug in a modern 3D game. Decreasing the time to get an asset into Torque by even a small percentage will save a ton of time over the course of a project. I think decreasing the man-hours required to create games will give a big boost to the small developer with limited man-power.
I think GG got so involved with engine technology that they forgot that the purpose of a game engine is to empower artists and designers to make good games. In fact that reminds me of a quote from a 2003 Game Developer article 'Beautiful, Yet Friendly Part 1: Stop Hitting the Bottleneck' by Guillaume Provost, "in the end, a programmer's job isn't to make a good-looking game, it's to empower the artists to make a good-looking game."
07/25/2005 (11:05 am)
I agree David. I own TGE and T2D. I only own the educational version of Virtools and do not expect to be able to afford the full priced version anytime soon. As soon as I am out of school I will be working back in TGE and look forward to purchasing TSE. I hope by then the Art pipeline will be more friendly and that perhaps more productivity enhancing additions will have been implemented. I have noticed that Indie developers are small groups of people working in their spare time. I hope GG looks into ways to increase productivity for these developers. Improving the Art Pipeline will help. Add up the number of assets artists have to create, import, then debug in a modern 3D game. Decreasing the time to get an asset into Torque by even a small percentage will save a ton of time over the course of a project. I think decreasing the man-hours required to create games will give a big boost to the small developer with limited man-power.
I think GG got so involved with engine technology that they forgot that the purpose of a game engine is to empower artists and designers to make good games. In fact that reminds me of a quote from a 2003 Game Developer article 'Beautiful, Yet Friendly Part 1: Stop Hitting the Bottleneck' by Guillaume Provost, "in the end, a programmer's job isn't to make a good-looking game, it's to empower the artists to make a good-looking game."
#108
They need to be hoseted here, not externialy. Thoes that i have manged to find, were from 2002, or linkdead.
07/27/2005 (9:06 pm)
Documentation, Speficaly, Tutorials.They need to be hoseted here, not externialy. Thoes that i have manged to find, were from 2002, or linkdead.
#109
07/27/2005 (10:43 pm)
;)...
#110
GG has a doc about iterating here.
07/29/2005 (1:46 pm)
I think that what keeps most Torque projects from getting completed is that they lack a reasonable development process. I'm sure that most people here, with some effort, can and do make simple demos or prototypes with Torque, but afterwards, if they forget to iterate and try to make a whole game in one shot, they eventually reach a rough patch that stops the whole project.GG has a doc about iterating here.
#111
07/31/2005 (9:00 am)
;)...
#112
The problem is the DOCUMENTATION - there is none. A bunch of user-produced blogs, half-done wiki entries and random sample "resources" is a poor excuse for documentation. If torque wants professional programmers to make the transition to 3d game production, they need to throw us a bone. If I was billing a client for the time I've wasted looking for docs I'd have to bill $1200 for the last week's worth of wasted time!
With any other programming system, I'm able to complete a reasonalble starter application after a week's worth of time - here I've got a bunch of links to a social network and still am not sure how to properly instantiate the correct classes :-(
They should up the price by $30 and ship it with an electronic version of GPGT - or write their own book!
Now that I've let this be known, I'm back to searching for some sort of COMPLETE docs for the gamebase object while I wait for reference materials by mail (...pooopie).
07/30/2007 (6:59 am)
Art is no problem ... milkshape, QUARK, and Constructor seem to do the trick pretty well, I've heard good things about blender also. 3d rendering sucks and takes forever, but it appears that any tools you like to use will work (you may need a converter - milkshape rocks for making .DTS files). Like anything else, professional art tools run $900+ but then that's why professionals charge for their time - and spend less time to produce more.The problem is the DOCUMENTATION - there is none. A bunch of user-produced blogs, half-done wiki entries and random sample "resources" is a poor excuse for documentation. If torque wants professional programmers to make the transition to 3d game production, they need to throw us a bone. If I was billing a client for the time I've wasted looking for docs I'd have to bill $1200 for the last week's worth of wasted time!
With any other programming system, I'm able to complete a reasonalble starter application after a week's worth of time - here I've got a bunch of links to a social network and still am not sure how to properly instantiate the correct classes :-(
They should up the price by $30 and ship it with an electronic version of GPGT - or write their own book!
Now that I've let this be known, I'm back to searching for some sort of COMPLETE docs for the gamebase object while I wait for reference materials by mail (...pooopie).
#113
However, if you want to actually make a game from start to finish and you are going to use the Torque engine as a base to avoid having to write an engine yourself then there is more than enough documentation around. There are docs to be found for every exporter, there are docs on how to do all kinds of cool modifications.
If you want detail you can buy the Torque Game Programmers Guide which has a lot more info than you might expect. Finally, if you really want to understand the engine plan to give up the 1GB + and use dOxygen to break down the entire engine - along with a running commentary on what is being done and why.
There are the forums where you can find answers to most problems, there is the is the wiki which has a lot more information than people might expect.
There is also a Torque School starting to teach various aspects of the engine, tools and game development processes. You can also go to one of the courses being taught directly by GarageGames. If all else fails you can simply trace and read the code.
Could more be done? You bet. Could it be organized better? No I don't think so - it could be organized differently - that is not the same thing. Any organization would please some and frustrate others. It is loosely organized now and is available across a spectrum of venues. It could be strictly organized and narrowly available. Would that be better? Not for me, it would just be different. Is it all free? Nope. But many people worked on it and they are entitled to recompense.
So, does the engine lack documentation? Not really. That was an old complaint and IMHO is really no longer valid.
07/30/2007 (8:22 am)
I used to think there were incomplete docs for this engine. That was back when I initially thought that it was a glorified mod making kit and not a tool. However, if you want to actually make a game from start to finish and you are going to use the Torque engine as a base to avoid having to write an engine yourself then there is more than enough documentation around. There are docs to be found for every exporter, there are docs on how to do all kinds of cool modifications.
If you want detail you can buy the Torque Game Programmers Guide which has a lot more info than you might expect. Finally, if you really want to understand the engine plan to give up the 1GB + and use dOxygen to break down the entire engine - along with a running commentary on what is being done and why.
There are the forums where you can find answers to most problems, there is the is the wiki which has a lot more information than people might expect.
There is also a Torque School starting to teach various aspects of the engine, tools and game development processes. You can also go to one of the courses being taught directly by GarageGames. If all else fails you can simply trace and read the code.
Could more be done? You bet. Could it be organized better? No I don't think so - it could be organized differently - that is not the same thing. Any organization would please some and frustrate others. It is loosely organized now and is available across a spectrum of venues. It could be strictly organized and narrowly available. Would that be better? Not for me, it would just be different. Is it all free? Nope. But many people worked on it and they are entitled to recompense.
So, does the engine lack documentation? Not really. That was an old complaint and IMHO is really no longer valid.
Torque Owner Mike Nelson
A lot of the fun at the beginning of a project for me is the opportunity to prove that I can do something in the game, which for me is always some technical challenge (I'm a programmer). I'd like to do something that I (or maybe others) haven't done before. I have a strong tendency to want to do something new or different or whatnot. Write or re-write a bunch of engine code for some reason or another. I may feel, incorrectly, that I can do something cool in a reasonable amount of time. Or I may want to do it in order to prove something to myself. It is sort of indulgent for me to start to tackle a big challenging project. There is a lot of excitement behind it. But when I start to see how unreasonable it is to do for me it can be very frustrating perhaps because of all that excitement behind it at the beginning.
Every project will have its difficult challenges but you may encounter less big challenges if you don't go looking for them. The big challenges will find you, and when they do it may be more appropriate to tackle them when they don't come solely from you.