Plan for Pat Wilson

#61 I don't want to add to any rant here, I have gladly spent my money on products from the garage and will continue to do so knowing I'm getting away with a steal.
But I do feel like I need to react;
@Sthephen Zepp:
No flame here but I do believe you put it a bit harsh by saying:

Quote:I'm -really- not trying to attack you directly, please don't take it that way, but your use of the community for such a long time without contributing back yourself is in many ways similar to those that want all of the new Torque products to be available for free as well

(bold formatting added to emphasise the point)

A very wise (probably chinese) man once said, if you don't have anything important to add, keep quiet.
If I had followed that advise (me and my big mouth) I'd probably only posted somewhere around 20 post, ie. beeing totally improductive to this community.

Stephen, as I said I don't want a big fight over this, you seem like a great guy and I've seen alot of intelligent post you've made.
The above comment on the other hand could be conscidered a bit alienating to forum users that really try but don't know where to start.

Cheerioo

#62 Lovely Post Pat !!

Edit:
Deleted comment to Stephen was Not worth it !

-Billy

#63 Rick Overman said:

Quote:but we grin and beer it

I think that was not a typo but a nice way of saying that trying to make everyone happy can drive you to drink. :)

- Melv.

#64 Here is what I say:

Less Lip Flapping...More Game Dev

Let's ship some damn games


'nuff said

#65 I've had TGE for all of 3 days now (so I'm a super "Newbie"), and have been browsing through these forums, and honestly, seeing posts like pats doesn't alienate me in the slightest, on the contrary, I thought it was hilarious and spot on.

Neither do I feel it is an attack on noobs when GG gets upset over some of those posts, like that guy who wanted just a set of libraries. I'm sorry, his first post was totally aggro, he implied TGE was a waste of money, and that it was GGs fault that he didn't understand the concept of a game engine. Like they'd cheated him! I mean come on, people don't pay $250000 for the Unreal Engine say just to get a set of wrapper libraries for DirectX and whatnot. It clearly says "Game Engine" on the description page. And I totally understand why they'd get upset, him saying something they put their blood and sweat into is a waste of money.

I find this community fantastic, the GG guys awesome and helpful. Browsing through the forums and resources, all I see is highly skilled and friendly people going out of their way to help those with problems out, free of charge! From this noobs point of view, this community is solid gold.

There is a huge difference between noobs having a different point of view, and those launching attacks. There are plenty of examples in the forums of newbies in trouble who are polite and genuinlly asking for help, and who get it promptly.

Some wise fellow once said : "You can please some people all the time, and all people some of the time, but you can't please all people all the time"


Anytime one of you guys wants to blow off steam with a post like Pats, go for it, I enjoy a good laugh.

#66 Isn't the quote about FOOLING people not PLEASING people?

And it's been attributed to ABE LINCOLN and P. T. BARNUM.

Sound's more like Barnum to me. :-)

#67 I could be mistaken about the quote ... I suppose.

*Hmmm, google agrees with you. Oops!*

Still, it seems to fit quite well with "pleasing" anyway, eh? ;-)


Heck, that makes me the first one to say it then. Just replace "some wise fellow once said" with "I said , just this very moment" in my previous post.

#68 I don't want to add fuel to the fire, just add some of my own perspective so that people may understand why some of us are a little prickly and sensitive to this topic.

Without fail, with every product that was released on GarageGames, there had been a backlash against it. When we first released our content packs, there was quite an uproar. No longer would everything released on GG be free of charge.. no longer would everything offered here be an extenstion of the engine that one payed for. Now, to develop a game, one would need to spend more money..

No one took the time to look at what we had done, to take into consideration the hundreds of hours I spent helping people. No one noticed that we contributed the unmessdts utility, no one recognized the contributions we made back to the engine, silently, when we were developing our product (we did not make any noise about it).

Even now, when someone has a character animation question, and I recommend the Girl Pack, I am looked upon as some greedy capitalist out to get their money instead of trying to help them.

And I think to myself.. we spend more on phone bills, internet, and server hosting every month then it cost us to get the engine that was the enabling factor that allowed us to make ThinkTanks.. and now, ThinkTanks for Xbox Live Arcade. It blows my mind that people want more than what they are already getting for $100

For years (going to repeat it so that people get it... YEARS), there have been individuals giving to this community expecting very little in return. When one of these individuals attempts to make some money by releasing a product, they become a pariah as often as a hero. When John released the Lighting Pack, there was a big uproar against both John and GarageGames..

From our perspective, with the content packs, my own personal view on it is 'can we do this and break even on it'. My goal is about making a living making games and enabling others to make games.

To me, it is a calling. The industry is broken, and I am putting my life on the line to be one of those working to make positive change, and not just bitching about it in a post GDC blog. I will not speak for others, but I know how they feel as well. The goal is not to just be successful, the goal is to be successful while changing the way games are made.

GarageGames has done a wonderful thing by providing something that can enable anyone to make their mark on the world. The technology is there. If you have the skills, the tools are here that will allow you to make your millions.

When one has given so much.. sacrificed so much, worked so hard, and someone stands up and asks for 'more, more, more..;, it feels like a kick in the crotch.

Seriously, there have been a lot of people, experienced and inexperienced, who feel it is their god given right to create games, and that my time is their time, and they can abuse me with nasty emails and IMs about how since I can do something, and that they cannot, that I should do something for them.

In the past, I was usually one of the first ones to jump in and help the n00bs. Now many of those newbies are the ones helping others with their problems.

It is very difficult to help someone and answer the same exact question to the same exact problem that has been covered in many threads and it is the documentation. It is difficult not to get upset when someone emails me to answer a question, and I don't have time and I advise them to check the FAQs, the docs, and scan all the forum posts I have posted to,, it hurts when I am really trying to help someone, and they respond with an email that says, quote:

'thanks for nothing, fucker'

does it excuse me and allow me to act unprofessional? no.. I try my hardest to brush it off, and keep on plugging away, but it still hurts.

It hurts me when people jump in and defend the 'feelings' of somebody new to the community, and berates the experienced individuals who have spent years, who have poured their lives into this.. people who are walking the walk.. for not being professional enough, for not being strong enough to take pummeling after pummeling...

what about us? what about our feelings? is anyone concerned about my warm and fuzzies? or is it only the newbies who need to get the warm and fuzzies?

We talk a lot about how to help people, about how to make things better; about how to enable people to make games.. and I'd imagine every one of the old timers has, on occasion, openly decided to just say 'fuck you' to the entire community, and take our ball and go play our own game.

I don't want it to become this way. I want to see the veterans continuing to share, continuing to contribute, and continue to work toward better things. Discussions like this one will fade, and in six months, it will be the same people, the committed ones, doing the work, helping the newbs, putting in the often thankless effort to help you to achieve your dreams.

now, I don't want a medal for what I have done.. all I ask is that people new to this community have a little more respect for people in general. My time is my time. No one has the right to demand that I spend my time helping them. If I can, it is a gift.. I expect nothing in return. All I ask is that people don't treat this gift as something that is owed to them.

and that is what I think is the root of the frustration demonstrated in this thread. We are all human. We are not bottomless pits of giving. Many of us have given much.. and it hurts when we are asked to give more and then cursed when we cannot.

So what is the correct thing to do? do we perpetuate this attitude of entitlement? Or do we do what we can to set it straight? I have no answers to this question. I try my best to have a professional attitude and demeanor on the forums, but it is sometimes very very hard to do so.

I may not have added anything to the discussion, but my hope is that some of you at least understand my perspective. My actions might not always be the best ones, but I am trying, and my heart is in the right place, as I truly want to see all of your achieve your dreams, and feel very lucky that I am able to be living mine.

#69 I hear ya Joe, well said.

Nick

#70 Well said Joe, you definately hit the nail on the head there and I feel that you summed up the thoughts and feelings from many of us here in the community as well.

Be kind to your peers, treat them well, and respect the fact that they have bills to pay and want to ensure that their families and especially their children can grow up healthy and happy. Support their efforts and in turn you will be supporting yourself, its all recipricol.

#71 @ Joe and L Foster:

exactly what I love about the GG community... so many free resources, fixes, and help that its insane that a lot of that was offered for free...

Everyone should be rewarded for their efforts (unfortunately it doesn't always happen) but I love the content packs, the extra work, the assistance, as well as the games (I'm ready to buy DH: Lore Invasion tomorrow!)... the prices asked for these are so insanely low that if those complaining were to do some industry research would find that you all are selling your high quality products in a bargain bin, its very impressive that you do and that you keep the perspective of breaking even and sustaining yourself vs. getting rich... guess thats the difference of an indie :)

#72 Matt: Too true about the prices.

On the one hand, I can understand why some people don't like the way things look, you have Torque for $100, but then you need to buy a whole bunch of other things too.

On the other hand, the only way you can think this way is to ignore the obvious: You don't have to buy anything else. You can do the RTS Pack work yourself, you can model your own female character, you can use an editor other than the new Constructor. You can even add shaders to the engine!

But here's the catch. Take your hourly rate of pay at your day job, now divide the cost of, say, TSE (the most expensive item), by that. Now you have the number of hours you'd have to work to buy TSE. I'll guarantee it's going to be a fraction of the hours it would require to implement it from scratch yourself.

Still don't like how expensive some things like TSE are? Then wait a few years. Eventually, GG will have to fold TSE into TGE once shaders are standard fare. Of course, you could probably write it yourself in that amount of time, but that brings us back to the last point.

So really, the only people I can see bitching are the really young ones without a day job. But then, if they spent less time bitching, and more time getting a game completed, even the slowest sellers I'm sure bring in enough to purchase a couple packs, which can be used to sell a better game, and pick up TSE and some more packs, and so on and so forth.

Which leaves no good reason to complain... not that it'll make any difference :)

#73 Actually, I'm surprised that this turned into a professionalism discussion at all. Perhaps it's because I deal with this mentality every day and therefore Pat was preaching to the choir with me. I see this in all walks of life. I see it in the attitudes of undergraduates at the university where I work. I see it in the shiny bright eyes of the film group I work with (especially since Napoleon Dynamite came out and was filmed just down the road from us). I work hard and I buy a lot of equipment. And people filter in and out of our film group because they realize that it's often a lot more fun to watch movies than to make them. Just like game development. When it comes to sitting down and doing the work necessary to build a game, it's sometimes a lot more fun to play them (and less of a time commitment) than to make them. Especially if your dream game is to make Grand Theft Final Fantasy Otogi Zelda for the XBox 3 but with MMORPG elements.

One thing that often leads to problems (not just in this community but all online communities) is that people take communication technology for granted. The IRC and IM generation has propogated the "speak before you think" mentality. It has always been a problem with e-mail and forums and usenet, but the influx of large numbers of people utilizing the internet (regardless of age) has created a virtual flood. People rarely read, research, or search before asking questions. They don't take time to understand the flow of the community. Then they become caustic when the community reacts to them. And yes, sometimes there are knee-jerk reactionaries. I know I've been guilty of it at times. But I usually try to help new people as long as they seem to be trying to understand the engine (there's a HUGE learning curve to TGE, and a lot of new people don't realize that).

But I'm also not a Torque expert. I use it every day, but I also have interests that fall well outside of what other people want to make. I rarely use terrain and even more rarely care about multiplayer. Both are two of TGE's strengths. But I still try to help. I just usually avoid both topics like the plague since they're not within my knowledge base. Which is why I often answer extremely basic questions. And it makes me tired. I can't imagine what Joe and Jeff and their respective companies go through in e-mail every day. Actually, I can. I just don't want to imagine it.

#74 While I don't get hate mail much, I do find it interesting to see the cross-over between what recently happened in a couple of forum threads and this .plan (and it's feedback).

I've been an "internet geek" for almost as long as the concept of internet communication has been around--way back even when there were no web forums, and people payed per post on CompuServe to discuss topics. I've been in every community type from the ones where if you can't flame and counter-flame, you can't survive, to gems like the GG community where the concept of a "flame" is completely verboten, and avoided at all costs. Personally, while I truly believe in "freedom of speech" as a general right, I do not believe it has a position in forums such as this. As Joe has mentioned, and I've posted about as well, the most valuable members of this community are only here and contribute because they want to, not because they are required--and when the forums no longer are worth their time--don't give them a sense of well being by helping others, they have absolutely no reason to even read them any longer, much less contribute.

I personally think it's the responsibility of each and every member of the community to self-regulate posting styles, tones, and content, and diligently monitor and teach the newer members about the generally accepted standards here to ensure the prolonged contributions of the most valuable members--otherwise, we lose those valuable members, and the community becomes less than what it was. That hurts all of us, and my personal belief is that no matter what it requires, if we don't manage the community, it will no longer be worth what it could be--a source of feedback, assistance, and mutual support for everyone.

Look at it this way: if the forum standards have dropped enough so that this .plan needed to be posted in the first place, then each and every one of us has failed to do our jobs in forum self-management. By it's very nature, we should recognize that key members of the community are already lost to us by the actions of a very small majority--and my question is, who is more important to the community: those who can't or won't play nice with others, or those that have the experience and knowledge that makes the community a better place?

#75 I see a lot of posts about problems but I don't see any real relevant posts about solving the problem.

GG does there job and they do it good. They release stuff totally under priced and that

#76 Heh, first of all -- brilliant post.

Back when I was 17 . . . in 2001 . . . I wrote a .plan with a similar bent. Well, perhaps a little cruder.

http://www.garagegames.com/blogs/1223/891

#77 Hmmm. I was expecting Charlie to be an asshole for making that point, but his is the first post I've read that makes me see the issue for exactly what it is.

You know -- I think that he explains it VERY well.

But, really, there IS no answer. Except that, you know, if they're complete newbs and piss and moan -- you know what?

We don't HAVE to be fucking nice to them.

This is where I think that the harsh, off-putting juvenile attitude of TribalWar.com gives a man an edge. I see literally no downside to flaming these ass-clowns off the face of the earth.

The one thing that this entire discussion is lacking is a cogent reason for anyone to GIVE A SHIT about what these people think, or what they say. That's where Charlie's argument breaks down -- yeah, I see how this whole situation is set up to INVITE whining from ass-clowns -- but that doesn't make them NOT ass-clowns! I can see how having a cheap engine means that it puts it in the reach of people who, statistically, are less likely to appreciate it for what it is, or judge their purchase more carefully. That doesn't mean it's not 10000% their fault, doesn't mean that THEY'RE somehow not the fuckwits if they buy Torque when they wanted OGRE. Ignorance can make someone an assclown too. If they ever stop being an ass-clown, they'll probably realize how right we all were to flame them, and they'll come to Torque if they're at a point where they really need it.

Basically -- yeah, by doing this GG reaps the whirlwind of assclownery.

My advice? Spend some time on TribalWar.com, and I guarantee that by the third time someone threatens to rape your pets to death in front of you, you will have become reacquainted with your sense of loathing for your fellow man, and you will be able to laugh it all off and have absolutely no desire to sugar-coat anything. You will put a big red "press this if you are angry that you got a great deal on something you had absolutely need for" flash button on the GG logo, and it will redirect to TubGirl or Goatse.

In REAL LIFE, my friends and I will openly voice a hope that everyone in each others' families dies of cancer, regardless of whether or not a family member actually HAS died of cancer (some have, including mine! :D). I constantly tell my best friend that his mother is really hot, and suggest that his younger brother is a male prostitute on weekends. ("Well, do you watch him all of the time?")

As a consequence of my being a numbed -- well, that or just incredibly well-adjusted, regardless of what it looks like ;) -- I really fail to see what the problem here is. GG has a setup where people are going to be assclowns to them -- a lot. But these are TO A MAN, and BY DEFINITION, people who can do nothing to hurt them, either by damaging their reputations or by injuring their person or by having the monetary resources to upgrade to a Super-Size much less file a tort.

People dislike you, but they don't matter and can't hurt you.

In other words, you have a constant stream of resourceless idiots with no way to retaliate when you mock them . . .

I don't know about you guys, but to ME, that seems like a win-win situation. Shit, I can take over the idiot-baiting FOR you, but I'd posit that a steady, fresh stream of helpless morons is actually a perk of the job. Most of the time, you have to bash the same idiots over and over again, but not GG! You can pick and choose, selecting at length the ripest plum to grind beneath your big brainy heels.

I wrote most of that after being up for a couple of days. :)

#78 @Luc: while your idea sounds cool and all, the only thing it will do is to cause the problem to grow and grow as more people get into the flame concept, turning these forums into an absolutely worthless place for anyone.

We lose experienced people weekly that refuse to dig through the chaff to answer quality questions, do you really think that adding layers and layers more flames will make the forum any better?

I already have to dig through three other forums that use the style you seem to want to find nuggets of market research information (what players want, what they don't like in current games, etc), and if there were ANY other way to do so without spending tens of thousands of dollars (for contracted market studies), I would in a heartbeat--but there isn't.

We can't make the problem better by fighting fire with fire--when a disease starts, you burn it out before it takes hold, not try to fight it with another (or the same) disease.

Nothing personal, but I myself feel that the very thing you state--that the internet anonymity and the inter-personal relations it causes has begun to bring these attitudes about other people into real life--is one of the saddest observations of society as a whole I've ever seen. It's a pretty small step from verbal hate to physical, and the world has slipped down that path before.

#79 See, once again I feel like it's being approached from the wrong end.

"...that the internet anonymity and the inter-personal relations it causes has begun to bring these attitudes about other people into real life..."

These are not attitudes about other people. These are attitudes about the power of words. :) It's incredibly hard for me to be hurt verbally, although I concede that it may still be possible.

But I don't see this as being such a bad thing.

As to GG's scenario, I agree that I'm not offering much of a solution for anyone! In point of fact, I'm saying that things should keep going just like they're going -- but that the rest of GG might be able to follow Pat's lead and grind the lemons into lemonade.

Personally, I would love to see the creation of a forum just for flames, and all threads that turn into flames could be relocated there by a moderator. This would let people "take it outside", and provide a healthy outlet, without corrupting the spirit of the rest of the forums. I believe that Penny-Arcade has had great success by separating their forums into Ordered and Chaotic forums (Catsby and Twisp, respectively), so specific-topic forums like The Artist's Corner can be phenomenally successful (as measured by how many people are developing The Mad Skillz thanks primarily to the effect of collaboration within TAC).

#80 @Luc:

Quote:
Personally, I would love to see the creation of a forum just for flames, and all threads that turn into flames could be relocated there by a moderator.

One of the forums I am a member of did exactly this--and in my personal opinion, it just made matters worse. "Signal" posts, as soon as they become flames (and they do, often) get dumped to the "flame forum", and wind up losing all of the content they originally had (at least for me). Now, instead of spending my time being able to find good information and discussions, I expect that a lot of what could have been good posts get dumped to that area--and I simply don't have time to sift through that area with the extremely low signal to noise ratio the posts have (as intended by the move).

The forum loses in general content, especially to new members to the forum that are researching past information. As a discussion community, it works out pretty well I guess, but for an information resource community like GG, it further dilutes the ability to find useful information. Again, just my opinion, but I spend almost 40% of my time in forum communities as part of my project role, doing research, so it's very important to me personally.