Plan for Pat Wilson

#41 @Tom:

Actually, Void War was done "from scratch" (well, from DirectX). Though it took a little more than a week :)

Still, this would be a good challenge. I'm game. I'll see if I can catch you on IRC. Might be a good thing to try out and create some kind of write-up about.

#42 One thing does bug me and that's this:

For every one thing that people get upset about because it costs extra money, there is at least one free alternative out there.

If there is one thing that I ever noticed in the years that I have been doing software, it's that the easier you make it for people the more people you have. The more people you have, the growth spurt of the lazy or the 'get rich quick' people becomes higher.

And to be honest, I really can't think of anyway to ever change that.

#43 ROFL, freakin awesome!

You guys should put that at the begining of the "getting started" page.

#44 What I think is a big ol' hairy "RULE #1: MAKING GAMES IS HARD."

From there, you've got tools to make it easier. But unless you are using some sort of "click & play" style toy that is incredibly limited, it's never gonna be EASY.

#45 Oooh I see. It was an analogy, darn.
Pat forget my comment about the Gibson then.. ;)

#46 Ya, that is funny but I definitely see where Jmac is coming from.

#47 No matter how funny and on the ball this is, its still unprofessional.

#48 So what if it is "unprofessional"? ;) Its just a fun post, and it's certainly not like it was vitriolic. And if we gotta worry about being professional to the point where we can't *once in a while* make fun of ourselves or others, then I don't know what the point is. We are not a buttoned-down business, far from it. And luckily so, otherwise we'd be concerned solely with "maximizing revenue" and "quarter-on-quarter earnings growth", etc, etc. Bleh.

99.99% of the people in this community *rock*, and all of us here are very impressed and happy with it. <3 you all. But once in a while a silly situation arises, and it doesn't hurt to poke a little fun at it.

And besides, it's not like this is all that bad at all. If Pat's post were like "%*&(# ALL YOU #%$Q*!!!!", etc, then it'd be out of line, very unprofessional, and very unfair. But it's not. :)

#49 Well it's way easier to dismiss the message if you can apply the "unprofessional" label to the delivery.

I get a great deal of amusement at who exactly raises the unprofessional flag versus who doesn't.

#50 @Eric: I agree! that would be the perfect start page!! It would also help to set the proper tone for future complaints.

Even better yet, the purchase page should contain a warning label similar to the ones on a pack of cigarettes. It should say "GG Warning: This product will not magically endow you with programming skills, Artwork talent, or Common sense. Pregnant mothers, people with little time working with professional grade source code, and children should use caution when considering purchasing or attempting to use this product."

Just my 2 (non-politically correct) cents worth! :)

BTW: @GG: You guys are top notch. Thanks for all your hard work and great products. I know you don't hear as much from those of us who figure things out ourselves and don't complain, so Thank you, thank you! I have had your engine since Jan05 and have been impressed with your source code, design, and object oriented approach along with the consistent class implementation. Great work! Awesome professional grade programming. Don't let the wanna be indies get ya down! You guys have and keep creating great tools that really help those of us who are not affraid to do some work, and don't expect your tools to do all the work for us.

B--

#51 Seems like the place to post of few long time thoughts on the subject.

Having been on the business side of computers for a long time as an independent consultant/analyst, I have the luxury of telling certain prospective clients that they should look elsewhere for help. If I can see up front that a prospect is going to be a PITA, I will often do that. Not worth the trouble. People in sales, such as GG, don't usually have that option, so they take on clients by virtue of a sale. Not knowing till afterward they'd really have rather not made that particular sale.

I've never minded people who don't know asking (seemingly) dumb questions if they're seriously interested in an answer. I'm bothered in these forums sometimes, though, when a total newbie innocent is flamed and rocked because they double posted / cross posted / posted out of thread context / or a dozen other forum "no-no's" when all they wanted was a little help and the infraction was innocently made. If it doesn't appear to be malicious, give the poor person the benefit of the doubt before nailing them to the wall and alienating them from the community. We were all there once.

On the other hand, you do have those people who come in with guns blazing. Demanding more for their $100 or slamming GG for not giving them what they thought they should be getting. To them I say that 3D GameStudio is a complete (though limited) game development system with all the tools and they can get the low-end version for $50. Go there. I didn't know much about game engines when I bought Torque, but I knew enough to do some homework before I purchased. And I know you're not just investing in just an engine, but in the company and the people behind it.

Which brings me to the $100 price tag. As has been mentioned, a 12 year old can earn that in two weeks. We adults spend that on junk in a week or a weekend. It's peanuts for a piece of software like this, and I can't imagine anyone not being able to figure that out. The entire product line here at GG is extremely well priced for what it is, whether they have all the built in toys yet or not. I'm not a GG fanatic, hell I've only been around a few months, but it doesn't take rocket science to figure out that Torque is still the best game engine around under $250,000. If you're pissed about TGE not having ALL the bells and whistles yet, all you have to do is spend the other $249,900 (minimum).

As for Pat's analogy, I've been a professional in business a long time and I've often used the same types of analogies. It's not that we're not being professional, it's just that sometimes you get a little irritated at those people who seem to complain for the sake of complaining, or just don't really want to understand, so you try to figure out ways to make them understand. There are no magic buttons for making games, business apps, or anything else. People have to expect to study hard and work hard to produce software of any quality, no matter what the application. Personally, I'm amazed that the GG guys can get any work done with the number of answers to posts they make out here on a daily basis. They're everywhere answering everything. Try to get that kind of support from most other software manufacturers out there.

Sometimes I get the feeling from some posts that just because this is a game engine it's considered a computer toy. It's not. It's a serious software product geared toward a particular type of computer application. Games. Hopefully people will read these posts and figure out they're not going to spend $100 for Torque, press a button, and make HalfLife 3. Conversely, I would hope that more knowledgable forum users can understand the periodic frustration of some of the new users who just honestly need help when they ask questions. Even when they post them in the wrong place. To be honest, this is the best forum (GG) I've seen for that kind of support.

I suppose this post opens me up to some feedback because it's too long, not appropriate here, doesn't apply, or I spelled something wrong. And BTW, I enjoyed Pat's post. Oh well...

#52

Quote:Well it's way easier to dismiss the message if you can apply the "unprofessional" label to the delivery.

I get a great deal of amusement at who exactly raises the unprofessional flag versus who doesn't.

Hmm, I said I wouldn't post again. Guess this makes me a liar.

Anyway, I'm not dismissing the message - the message is true. I agree with the whole concept -- "you get what you pay/work for", "No such thing as a free lunch" etc. Personally, I think it would be great if you made an editor, and then we could buy it for 50 bucks or so. Save me a ton of time and work.

But I'm not sure why you would get a great deal of amusement that I raised it. Am I supposed to be greedy, stupid, whiney, or something like that? I am none of these. I can afford to buy the things I want, and I'm smart enough to know that you get what you pay for. Nor do I think I sound like I'm whining. (but I suppose I don't really know for sure how I sound to others).

#53 OMG, that is sofa king funny. It would be unprofessional if Pat was bitching about such requests, but he's not, he is just sharing some of the humor that we get in our inboxs EVERY single day. ...ok, it does get a little annoying when asked for the 100,000th time, but we grin and beer it. Here's some more fun we see every day, no kidding!

Quote:Can I have an evaluation version of the Source Code?
I cannot afford the Torque can I pay you when I finish my game?

#54 @Josh, talking of being unprofessional... what was it you said to that waitresses?

:)

#55 This community has become too much of a 'if you don't like it you can go away, and good riddance' type of thing. You have to realize that people will come in with certain preconceived notions. Look at the Unreal Engine - license it and you get a plethora of content development tools. Yes, it's quite a fortune, and I'm not trying to compare Torque to Unreal. But I think it's pretty obvious that some people might draw the conclusion that any new/improved tools developed on top of Torque by GG will be included in with the original license. But it doesn't matter where the notions come from. Ridiculing people who draw those conclusions, perhaps resulting in them leaving the community is just wrong.

Considering how many people license the engine with misconceptions ('I thought I it was a set of libraries I could link to and use as needed - I didn't know I would have to modify the whole game!') it seems obvious to me that something needs to be added to the product page to dispel that sort of thing. It's absurd to think that just because some people understand the definition of game engine to be one thing that others will understand it to be the same. There's just no consistency for that sort of thing in the hobby community - from which Torque attracts a lot of people because of its low price, and from whom these misconceptions usually arise. How hard is it to add something like this to the product page:

'TGE includes basic editors for creating your world, designing the user interface, and sculpting the terrian. More advanced tools are available to license separately at additional cost.'

'TGE is not a set of libraries that plug in to your application, but a complete application framework. It's the starting the point for your game.'

Something like that won't eliminate all of the questions (too many people don't RTFM), but it should go a long way to reducing them. Derisive comments like the ones in this thread and others do nothing but discourage. Who knows, you might be driving away a potential community contributor just because he had a different opinion.

I've been lurking in this community for 4+ years now. I've recently begun to consider upgrading to TSE and picking up T2D, but sometimes I wonder if it's worth it. This used to be an etremely helpful, upbeat community. It still is to a lesser degree. More and more it's become filled with rudeness, elitism, and mockery. Even the GG staff throw out some snide remarks from time to time. I see the community participation as a very important benefit to owning a license. There's a wealth of knowledge to be shared. But if I just licensed TGE today, I probably wouldn't come back after reading comments like the above.

#56 @Mike: With all due respect, I have to take exception to your comments compared to your own personal posting history. You state basically that the community is very important to you, and that it "used to be etremely (sic) helpful"--and that you've been a member for 4+ years.

What I don't understand however is that instead of contributing for those 4+ years, you've made less than 20 posts. This community is what we, yes, that's each and every one of us, makes of it. Take one quick look at the number of recent posts (and I mean last 6 months) of the most experienced Torque owners--people like Matt Fairfax, Joe M., Ed Gardner, Anthony Rosenbaum, Stefan "Beffy" (can't remember his last name, sorry), the list goes on.

Heard from them lately? There is a reason for that--and that reason is the ratio of experienced posters (or lack thereof), and the endless cycle of people that simply refuse to accept a set of community standards, not to mention realize just how much sacrifice so many people make here in the community, only to get burned out by endless "that should be free", or "why do you charge for that", or "I should get everything with my single license".

It's a catch-22 for GG as it is...their goal is to make AAA technology available to the masses, but the problem is, at the price point they target, they really do get the masses--and especially the ones that can cause a community to slide from being a mutually supportive, mutually beneficial one for all Torque developers, to a few sacrifical lambs that repeat the same answer to the same question 3 times in 2 days, and see the same cycle of questions each and every month. There honestly isn't much to keep highly experienced torque users active in the community (or any community, this isn't just a problem with Torque) except for the enjoyment of helping others out--and when that enjoyment is drained by just a few posters, or endless repetitions of the same complaints, they simply don't come back for more abuse.

Quite honestly, why haven't you (and many others like you) spent the time to contribute back to the community the things that you say make it so valuable? GG staff has been doing it for what probably seems to be 5+ endless years, and they continue to get the negativity that probably makes most of them literally dread reading the boards. I'm -really- not trying to attack you directly, please don't take it that way, but your use of the community for such a long time without contributing back yourself is in many ways similar to those that want all of the new Torque products to be available for free as well--maybe because they think it is their right due to purchasing the initial product, I just don't know.

But turn it around for just a second--if after 4 years you haven't been interested in posting more than 20 or so times, why should the rest of the community feel responsible for keeping the community "helpful and upbeat"...especially when confronted with the negativity that comes from those that feel everything is due to them automatically?

#57 actually I think the community is better than ever... right now theres a lot of new products, with new products comes new people, with new people come the same people that come to any new product, the ones wanting more for nothing, along with those come many that dont - those that simply have questions, thats not who they're directing this at, its towards those that have not done their research and think this is a get a game out quick and get rich type of thing, where they don't have to learn or pay for anything extra... unfortunately they will realize that does not exist... not even close to it in Unreal... I quite honestly like the Torque toolset, even as is now, much better than Unreal... thats a personal preference though....

The community is great, just presently a lot of new people are comming, eventually those that want stuff for free will whither off and those that learn that Torque is an amazing value will stay and the community will be a bit more united again :)

btw Torque 2D is great ! You will not be dissapointed with it!

#58 @Stephen: The number of contributions I, or anyone else, have made is not the issuet. I'm not going on about how much, or how often, people contribute. I've visited the forums regularly, I follow the .plans of a few particular people, and I always catch the latest news and announcements and progress, so I have seen this community evolve. I have seen many, many cases of people helping each other by answering questions in the forums and posting resources. It's still there, it's still going on, it's what makes this a great community for indies, and that's all good.

What I am on about is that newcomers to this community with opinions contrary to the norm are instantly assumed to be whiners with little better to do than demand things for free, or that they are too incompetent to tie their shoelaces. That attitude is very prevelant now where it did not exist before at all. And while it's a vocal minority that rant, rave and flame in cases like that, it has a negative impact on the community as a whole. And I am proposing that, instead of attacking these people right off the bat, steps be taken to prevent these misconceptions in the first place by including the information plainly and clearly on the product page. Then, when people still come in with these outrageous ideas, other members can direct them to that page in case they missed it and maybe even attempt to explain the situation without attacking them. Scroll back up through this thread and imagine you were coming here for the first time. What would be your opinion of the community after reading some of the remarks? IMO it's the equivalent of talking crap behind someone's back. All I'm saying is that instead of attacking these people from the get go, we should consider attempting to rectify the problem at it's root. If fewer people have these misconceptions, and more people tried to set them straight rather than flame them, it would be a win-win situation would it not? Flame away on those who just don't get it, but at least try to explain things first.

#59 I understand what your saying Mike... though I think the Torque FAQ and product descriptions are quite adequate... the people that are the ones asking for free stuff tend to pull misconceptions out of the air... the ones asking questions are just curious... there just has been so many of both lately that oftentimes someone is responding to someone falsely complaining about Torque (or making outrageous statements towards free tool) in the same thread a curious new person is...

I dont know how well you've followed the community, but I know within the past 1 1/2 years things have got insanely better... Back a 1 1/2 years ago when I came I turned away for a while (until I met the GG guys at last years GDC).... now things are so much better, keep in mind its much easier to see the bad thread, the loud and obnoxious ones rather than the multitudes of productive ones... (if you got T2D you could see the T2D private boards, they are amazingly productive among many of the other boards)...

I really don't see what your pointing out, I see quite the opposite, though I could see how the surge lately could make it seem so (if you haven't followed the community very closely)

#60 @Mike: We undersell the Torque in nearly all cases. Our FAQ states that you should be a competent C++ programmer or be prepared to spend a lot of time learning.

A lot of the time, running this community is like being pecked to death by ducks. It is very difficult to tell from a forum post if the poster is 13 years old or a past professional. Our only clues come from small things like, did the poster take the time to read the getting started emails, read a few links and post in the appropriate forums, read any of the documentation, etc. Additional cues come from things like IM abbreviations. If u cn rd ths, then I dun wanna work with u.

If all of the cues are adding to something negative, and then the same user starts ranting about WTF?, now I have to buy a F@Ckin complier??? It is natural to become somewhat agitated. Our EULA states that the $100 you spend does not guarantee access to the forums or to future updates, but we have not revoked access to anybody in spite of some terrible actions.

Sometimes it is better to get rid of a customer or tell them not to buy in the first place. Most business books will tell you this. $100 does not give anybody the right to make GG their "bitch" or indentured servant. Some people will complain about this, but when we try to head off bad customers or calm others down, we feel it is in the best interests of the community. If we allow GG to become just another wild west kiddie forum, everybody will lose.

If you feel this is being too harsh, I don't know what to tell you. GG provides the best game making technology for the best price. We practically give away our software, we run this community, we lose money to run Indie Games Con, we provide a non-evil publishing channel if you have a good game, etc. If you don't like us and that causes you to not purchase our products, that is your option, but if you really want to make a game, it seems like you are looking at the wrong issues.