From the depths of Hell... a MACK T3D update
by Jondo · 04/15/2011 (12:49 pm) · 43 comments
This is a long overdue blog regarding the status of our Advanced Character Kit port to Torque3D.
We've had a ton of hurdles to overcome with this port. So much has changed since we originally planned for a simple ACK port to T3D. Its been a rough year or two for most of us here, so I will spare you the sad-stories from the B.A.G. camp and keep this blog about the positive points.
We truly apologize for not having better communication over the past many months. But we are "back" and really excited about the new direction at GG! We're glad to be a part of it and look forward to a big 2011 with the rest of the community.
The Main function of the ACK system has always been to demonstrate the possibilities with character functionality in the Torque engines, and to serve as the "end-all placeholder art" for your human-based game characters until AAA assets can be added to final projects. Its also a viable "final" character model for some game projects, depending on your graphic needs. Once adopted, the system can be used on other characters (with bvh named skeletons), as well.
This update is more than a port of the ACK system to T3D, we've also done a full overhaul of the functionality. More like a Modernization Kit for ACK. The final scope of features definitely affected our production time, but we feel it was worth it. There are still some issues to be worked out, but we are going to move into packaging the build and get the community involved in sorting out any tweaks needed. Now that the engine is nearing its first release build, its finally time to unleash ACKT3D on you. We are planning to package MACK and FACK T3D and submit it to GG by next week. If this is delayed, I will update you here.
I'm most excited to reveal some of the new features previously not included in the ACK system:
Over 60 new clothing meshes added to stack
More LODs
8 way added for movement
4 way melee attacks added
sprinting added
many new animations: ambient roots, movements, crouch/prone, swim
Full swinging arms/weapon arm toggling functionality
melee improvements
Doublejump/flip added
Mantling improved
Advanced skin swapping
Multitexture layers for decal style overlays such as tatoos, damage marks, etc.
Gender selection GUI example
That's where we're at, folks. More soon, and thanks for the continued patience!
Jondo
P.S.
Of course there's a video!
We've had a ton of hurdles to overcome with this port. So much has changed since we originally planned for a simple ACK port to T3D. Its been a rough year or two for most of us here, so I will spare you the sad-stories from the B.A.G. camp and keep this blog about the positive points.
We truly apologize for not having better communication over the past many months. But we are "back" and really excited about the new direction at GG! We're glad to be a part of it and look forward to a big 2011 with the rest of the community.
The Main function of the ACK system has always been to demonstrate the possibilities with character functionality in the Torque engines, and to serve as the "end-all placeholder art" for your human-based game characters until AAA assets can be added to final projects. Its also a viable "final" character model for some game projects, depending on your graphic needs. Once adopted, the system can be used on other characters (with bvh named skeletons), as well.
This update is more than a port of the ACK system to T3D, we've also done a full overhaul of the functionality. More like a Modernization Kit for ACK. The final scope of features definitely affected our production time, but we feel it was worth it. There are still some issues to be worked out, but we are going to move into packaging the build and get the community involved in sorting out any tweaks needed. Now that the engine is nearing its first release build, its finally time to unleash ACKT3D on you. We are planning to package MACK and FACK T3D and submit it to GG by next week. If this is delayed, I will update you here.
I'm most excited to reveal some of the new features previously not included in the ACK system:
Over 60 new clothing meshes added to stack
More LODs
8 way added for movement
4 way melee attacks added
sprinting added
many new animations: ambient roots, movements, crouch/prone, swim
Full swinging arms/weapon arm toggling functionality
melee improvements
Doublejump/flip added
Mantling improved
Advanced skin swapping
Multitexture layers for decal style overlays such as tatoos, damage marks, etc.
Gender selection GUI example
That's where we're at, folks. More soon, and thanks for the continued patience!
Jondo
P.S.
Of course there's a video!
#22
And that's nothing... now you have to update the product info page and maybe new docs for T3D... :-P
Docs are always the most scary part to do! :-D
04/22/2011 (1:57 am)
Quote: ...We've had a ton of hurdles to overcome with this port...
And that's nothing... now you have to update the product info page and maybe new docs for T3D... :-P
Docs are always the most scary part to do! :-D
#23
@Sparkling
Thanks for doing a lightening-fast round of QA for me and finding some good (or bad) bugs last minute.
Jondo
04/22/2011 (8:51 am)
Quote:And that's nothing... now you have to update the product info page and maybe new docs for T3D...Boooooo!
@Sparkling
Thanks for doing a lightening-fast round of QA for me and finding some good (or bad) bugs last minute.
Jondo
#24
04/23/2011 (9:24 am)
This is definitely a newbie question but are these characters supposed to have 80,000 polys??? Even at low LOD we can't seem to get it down to a useful size. I have hidden all clothing and it makes no difference.
#25
The nude figures are approx 3600 polys. When you check the polycount of the entire clothing stack at once its about 63k polys. Not sure how you're getting 80k. At the lowest visible LOD the entire stack is about 7k polys. However, its not intended to be used with each piece of clothing visible at the same time.
Because the T3D builds of MACK and FACK have more clothing meshes and more materials, you could achieve better performance from using the LEGACY advanced dts's instead.
Jondo
04/23/2011 (9:51 am)
@TeilaThe nude figures are approx 3600 polys. When you check the polycount of the entire clothing stack at once its about 63k polys. Not sure how you're getting 80k. At the lowest visible LOD the entire stack is about 7k polys. However, its not intended to be used with each piece of clothing visible at the same time.
Because the T3D builds of MACK and FACK have more clothing meshes and more materials, you could achieve better performance from using the LEGACY advanced dts's instead.
Jondo
#26
Thank you for your patience. I have learned a lot in the past few months but still much to learn. :) I am not the team artist but want to be able to discuss this with them and pass along information that I might get here.
I have a number of other questions..such as how to access the various skin tones in the shape editor, how to save your changes in the editor (they seem to disappear on the character when I go back to object editor), why there is clothing in the file (medieval clothing and body) that is not in the GUI, etc. I am sure this is simply my ignorance at how this works. Is there a manual out there somewhere?
Thanks again!!
04/23/2011 (10:36 am)
The female is 80,000+ with all the clothing. I guess I thought hiding the clothing in the shape editor would lower the polys but I suspect that we actually have to remove the clothing. So does this mean that if we create our own stack, that even if the pieces are hidden and not visible to me, they are still affecting the poly count?Thank you for your patience. I have learned a lot in the past few months but still much to learn. :) I am not the team artist but want to be able to discuss this with them and pass along information that I might get here.
I have a number of other questions..such as how to access the various skin tones in the shape editor, how to save your changes in the editor (they seem to disappear on the character when I go back to object editor), why there is clothing in the file (medieval clothing and body) that is not in the GUI, etc. I am sure this is simply my ignorance at how this works. Is there a manual out there somewhere?
Thanks again!!
#27
There is an extensive ACK manual for the legacy builds, some of the info still applies. We haven't done any documentation for the T3D port yet (other than a quick install guide).
You can also join our ACK forums where we get into more details (*COUGH* till we get a forum for BAG products here *ENDCOUGH*).
thanks, and feel free to PM me or post your questions on the BAG site.
Jondo
04/23/2011 (11:27 am)
You're right about the female polycount, I was looking at the male. I would like to think the hidden meshes don't effect polycount, but I suggest you assume the worst and remove any meshes you do not intend to use at the source level and re export. Quote:I have a number of other questions..such as how to access the various skin tones in the shape editor, how to save your changes in the editor (they seem to disappear on the character when I go back to object editor)There are save buttons in shape editor and material editor (far right side in the middle, looks like floppy icon).
There is an extensive ACK manual for the legacy builds, some of the info still applies. We haven't done any documentation for the T3D port yet (other than a quick install guide).
You can also join our ACK forums where we get into more details (*COUGH* till we get a forum for BAG products here *ENDCOUGH*).
thanks, and feel free to PM me or post your questions on the BAG site.
Jondo
#28
04/23/2011 (12:03 pm)
Thank you, Jondo! The save button doesn't seem to work for the characters but I am sure that is more a 'Teila' error or something with the editor than with your package. I will PM you or ask on the BAG site if I have more questions.
#29
To see the skinswapping and texture overlay functionality of ACK hit the period(.) key to bring up the ack skins gui. You can change the the body skins and also overlay other textures (transparencies or not) in the multiple layers shown in the GUI.
thanks and looking forward to it,
Jondo
04/23/2011 (12:39 pm)
To change the materials of mack or fack using material editor, you would have to load in a static of the character, select it, then go to material editor. (this is how you would tweak a setting on a particular material, a shirt for example).To see the skinswapping and texture overlay functionality of ACK hit the period(.) key to bring up the ack skins gui. You can change the the body skins and also overlay other textures (transparencies or not) in the multiple layers shown in the GUI.
thanks and looking forward to it,
Jondo
#30
They are using Mesh Hiding, probably something similar to this resource:
http://www.garagegames.com/community/resources/view/15457
So while in an editor you will see all the meshes, in game only the meshes that are visible are actually rendered. In many editors you can select meshes and hiding portions of them so you can work on and add to the model.
With the resource, in game with boots and some clothing on you might only be rendering 5000 polys. If you don't have that resource implemented into your T3D then you would be rendering all 80000 polys because all the meshes would be visible.
So if not using the Mesh Hiding resource, you would need to go through the models and remove all meshes you don't want to make it appropriate for your game.
Not sure how newb, so wanted to go deeper incase didn't know that.
04/23/2011 (2:50 pm)
@Teila,They are using Mesh Hiding, probably something similar to this resource:
http://www.garagegames.com/community/resources/view/15457
So while in an editor you will see all the meshes, in game only the meshes that are visible are actually rendered. In many editors you can select meshes and hiding portions of them so you can work on and add to the model.
With the resource, in game with boots and some clothing on you might only be rendering 5000 polys. If you don't have that resource implemented into your T3D then you would be rendering all 80000 polys because all the meshes would be visible.
So if not using the Mesh Hiding resource, you would need to go through the models and remove all meshes you don't want to make it appropriate for your game.
Not sure how newb, so wanted to go deeper incase didn't know that.
#31
I am very much a newbie when it comes to the artwork. Really, I am the manager/designer for our project but I just can't help dabbling in everything!
04/23/2011 (3:26 pm)
Thank you, Leathel. I will pass this to our programmer but I think mesh hiding is built into T3d and that is a resource for TGEA.I am very much a newbie when it comes to the artwork. Really, I am the manager/designer for our project but I just can't help dabbling in everything!
#32
04/23/2011 (4:16 pm)
Good it is in there by default then. I don't use a stock T3D so not sure what comes with the base version. 
#33
04/24/2011 (8:37 am)
@Jondo You are most welcome! I was honored to help. I do have a pretty good track record of finding bugs in games. ;) If anything is going to go wrong, it will usually happen to me. Congrats on your release of your product! I hope many more people support your efforts with a purchase. It's the best! 
#34
I can view the public stuff if I'm not logged in but I can't view anything when I'm loged in?
I'm the proud owner of a shiny new copy of Mack & Fack and have owned Ecstasy Motion for some time, I would apreciate it if you could allow me acces to these forums :-)
Thanks
D.R. Pemberton
www.deadlyassets.com
04/27/2011 (3:44 am)
whenever I log into your website forum I get:-Quote:
AN ERROR HAS OCCURRED!
The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you.
I can view the public stuff if I'm not logged in but I can't view anything when I'm loged in?
I'm the proud owner of a shiny new copy of Mack & Fack and have owned Ecstasy Motion for some time, I would apreciate it if you could allow me acces to these forums :-)
Thanks
D.R. Pemberton
www.deadlyassets.com
#36
when I'm not logged in I can't see anywhere to reply to the thread, am I doing something wrong or is my account bugged?
04/27/2011 (6:05 pm)
when I'm logged in I get :-Quote:
An Error Has Occurred!
The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you.
when I'm not logged in I can't see anywhere to reply to the thread, am I doing something wrong or is my account bugged?
#37
Sorry about the hassle. Its not something you're doing wrong, its the permission settings of our site. Can't tell you what the exact problem is, alot of people have got in and requested to be added to the owner grp. Whats your username over there? I will check out the account. If you prefer you can email it to me. jon brokeassgames com
thanks!
Jondo
04/28/2011 (8:38 am)
David,Sorry about the hassle. Its not something you're doing wrong, its the permission settings of our site. Can't tell you what the exact problem is, alot of people have got in and requested to be added to the owner grp. Whats your username over there? I will check out the account. If you prefer you can email it to me. jon brokeassgames com
thanks!
Jondo
#38
Were you intending to include a similar one to the original TGEA that had 4 levels?
I'm assuming we can just move over the additional meshes and tweak etc which ones we need but curious as to why you didn't LOD the new model?
04/28/2011 (9:37 pm)
Jondo, I notice the MACK advanced_male milkshape file only has the one LOD (of 200) with it.Were you intending to include a similar one to the original TGEA that had 4 levels?
I'm assuming we can just move over the additional meshes and tweak etc which ones we need but curious as to why you didn't LOD the new model?
#39
D.R. Pemberton, you shouldnt have any problems now viewing the site and forums.
05/03/2011 (1:53 am)
Ill let Jon know you posted David, we've been busy giving our site a facelift and reorganisation and may have slipped under the radar.D.R. Pemberton, you shouldnt have any problems now viewing the site and forums.
#40
The LODs for ACKT3D are built using the DTSPlus exporter by ChrisR. You can edit and view all the pixel size numbers, as well as the corresponding percents of the mesh at the time of export. We found it very functional. This also means there are no repeated meshes when you look through the meshgroups in the file. Additionally, we did not waste meshgroups on LODs this way (ms3d limited to 255 groups), so now mack and fack have many more clothing, armor, jewelry, hair, etc meshes to play with. And you can easily delete the ones you do not want in your game to increase performance and re-export.
Now, if I can find the video tut Rex made on using this LOD system...that would be great!
Here it is!
05/03/2011 (10:34 am)
Hi David,The LODs for ACKT3D are built using the DTSPlus exporter by ChrisR. You can edit and view all the pixel size numbers, as well as the corresponding percents of the mesh at the time of export. We found it very functional. This also means there are no repeated meshes when you look through the meshgroups in the file. Additionally, we did not waste meshgroups on LODs this way (ms3d limited to 255 groups), so now mack and fack have many more clothing, armor, jewelry, hair, etc meshes to play with. And you can easily delete the ones you do not want in your game to increase performance and re-export.
Now, if I can find the video tut Rex made on using this LOD system...that would be great!
Here it is!
Torque 3D Owner Sparkling