Torque 2D Development - Expectations
by Michael Perry · 07/30/2009 (10:04 am) · 77 comments
In the first Torque 2D Development Blog, we wanted to drop a bombshell feature on the 2D game engine world. The announcement of real time networking addresses one of the most sought after feature requests for our 2D engine technology.
Before proceeding with more feature revelations, we are going to take this time to talk about Torque 2D expectations while we have your attention. The rumor mill has already started to churn, but now is the best time to address the speculation of how Torque 2D will be developed. First, let's look at the past.
There is not a single doubt that Torque Game Builder has been a success. When it comes to pure 2D development, game engine options are limited. Torque Game Builder has always been at the top due to the number of features and power it has offered. Developers have published games on BigFish, GarageGames, Steam, Xbox 360, the iPhone, and more. The engine has reached the hands of both hobbyists and AAA developers alike. Check out a few recent games with TGB you may have missed:
We're always excited when a well known brand picks up Torque to extend it in new, entrepreneurial ways. That's what happened when BioWare called us up last fall to talk about creating Mass Effect Galaxy for the iPhone. Created on top of TGB and Torque 2D for the iPhone, this game allows players to explore the story of Jacob Taylor, a biotic-powered super-soldier who stumbles across a plot to terrorize the mighty Citadel space station.
Torque Game Builder has been used to make hundreds of casual games, many of which have been published on one of the "Big Online Portals." Probably the biggest fish in the pond is, well, Big Fish. Long-time Torque developer Skunk Studios found success on Big Fish when it's hidden object game Flux Family Secrets hit the #1 spot in April and held it for many weeks. Now Skunk Studios has a contract to make more Flux Family games for the popular on-line portal.
One of the most compelling reasons to use TGB is to push it to multiple platforms. Windows and Mac comes right out of the box, but with pathways to iPhone, Wii, and the Xbox 360, there are lots of ways to get more eyeballs on your game. WhiteBearStudios choose TGB as it's start into Wii game developer, producing Sudoku Ball - Detective. With this game under their belt, they're aiming to produce more Wii titles with Torque and continue making great "jump-in" games with affordable and flexible tech.
During the 2009 Casual Connect, David Fox of iWin.com gave a talk about 3rd party frameworks and game engines developers had at their disposal. He was fair to all the contenders, but ended up giving Torque Game Builder a shining review.
The presentation ultimately came down to using the framework that best fit your project, so he created a list of all the features that would make the perfect engine. Perhaps my favorite slide in his presentation was the "Perfect Engine Matrix," where he listed features of a fictitious engine and compared it to real options.
We were very happy to see how Torque Game Builder stood up:
The Perfect Engine Features vs Torque Game Builder
You are not going to find a single game engine that fulfills that entire list, but it is obvious how close Torque Game Builder gets to the "perfect 2D engine." How many of those Xs would you like to see convert to checks? We are still putting the final touches on our road map, but we are feeling confident about most of those flipping. Real-time networking has already started the process of pushing Torque 2D beyond the already amazing TGB.
Another very important point David made was how well the engine fits your development needs, outside of a feature list. Again, TGB shines in all these areas.
Perfect Engine Dev Factors vs Torque Game Builder
*Low Cost - TGB has always been our most affordable engine for what you get.
*Community Support - Hands down, our community is one of the most solid and helpful when it comes to development. The original Torque 2D itself was spawned by a community member.
*Employee Support - The employee and contractor activity in the Torque 3D forums is way up, and will carry over to Torque 2D.
It pains me to see that the one X on that list is related to documentation, but we already plan to rectify this with Torque 2D. There will be a separate blog about this later, but you can still look at Torque 3D to see what direction this subject will go.
At the end of the talk, David gave us his "2 cents." Torque was his recommended choice for a 3rd party framework to make downloadable games. For web games, Flash is still the king. After all, has Flash ever had serious competition from a 2D game engine that can produce games embedded in a browser? Maybe it's time there is competition.
David was not the only developer with an opinion at Casual Connect. Several Torque veterans visited our booth to show off the games they made with our tech, and see the new Torque 2D demonstration. They even got a preview of the new editor, which is still in a very rough alpha. The responses were unanimous: Torque Game Builder is an amazing 2D game engine, and Torque 2D is on the right path to surpass it.
What's the Point???
This brings us to the core message of this blog: If Torque Game Builder is this widely accepted as one of the best, how do you improve on this? Sure, it would be easy to scan the forums and fix a few bugs here and there. Early on, we decided that was not good enough: for GarageGames or for you.
There is a reason we are switching to the name "Torque 2D." By now, most of you may have noticed we already performed a similar re-branding: Torque 3D. Torque 3D became more than just a TGEA 1.9 or 2.0 release. The engine evolved and has become the flagship engine everyone wanted to see GG produce.
Please, take time to look at the latest versions of TGEA and Torque 3D. Compare the editors, the new features, the documentation, the development transparency, the improvements, etc. Now, I want you to replace TGEA with Torque Game Builder.
We plan on giving TGB the same level of treatment Torque 3D has received in every way possible. Think of the major features missing from TGB, and the longstanding issues you want resolved. Look at every other game engine or framework, find its strongest point, then imagine that in Torque 2D.
Our final goal: Torque 2D will become the end all, be all, 2D game engine solution. For anyone who was concerned, we hope this ends the speculation of what effort will be going into Torque 2D.
Torque 2D development blogs:
- Post #1 - Torque 2D Development - Real-Time Networking
- Post #2 - Expectations
- Post #3 - Coming Soon!
About the author
Associate Producer / Project Manager for GarageGames
#62
We do remember bug fixes you've done - especially last package of physics system last year - almost redone by you. Do not worry - your name and work would not be forgotten!
It's just - a lot of bugs still fly freely making new developers mad - and yes - it may be because of TGE core as many of them are available to be solved without access to TGE forums - like crashing after Alt-Ctrl-Del under vista (actually it is solvable after bunch of rewrites from TGE code).
As for obvious "mistakes" I called them. How about disabled calling of the functions from one behavior in another? Or constant need of calling "destructive" methods with schedule? To recall just few - maybe design issues.
08/04/2009 (10:32 am)
No offense Melv :-)We do remember bug fixes you've done - especially last package of physics system last year - almost redone by you. Do not worry - your name and work would not be forgotten!
It's just - a lot of bugs still fly freely making new developers mad - and yes - it may be because of TGE core as many of them are available to be solved without access to TGE forums - like crashing after Alt-Ctrl-Del under vista (actually it is solvable after bunch of rewrites from TGE code).
As for obvious "mistakes" I called them. How about disabled calling of the functions from one behavior in another? Or constant need of calling "destructive" methods with schedule? To recall just few - maybe design issues.
#63
08/04/2009 (10:46 am)
I think that those issues have been resolved multiple times - plenty of TGB games have been accepted on casual portals. It does seem like the custom fixes those people made never got brought back into the fold. Perhaps GG should reach out to those developers and provide some extra incentive to get those back into the engine. Those little things that only show up at the very end of a project are the ones that probably are the hardest for GG to test. 
#64
I think that one of the problems with TGB was that I wrote all the core T2D, then over a period of years lots of developers worked on TGB through a period of incremental design. It solved many developers problems but with the original developers coming and going and my lack of participation in the level builder for quite a while things got a little "confused". There were some great features in there and I believe it still is a good buy but it's definately lacking in certain areas.
That's about to change and I continue to welcome ideas and criticisms.
08/04/2009 (10:52 am)
None taken my friend and we all want is the best product so I accept your comments in the spirit that they're given. Without them it's easy to think we're in a comfey dream where everything is perfect which it certainly ain't!I think that one of the problems with TGB was that I wrote all the core T2D, then over a period of years lots of developers worked on TGB through a period of incremental design. It solved many developers problems but with the original developers coming and going and my lack of participation in the level builder for quite a while things got a little "confused". There were some great features in there and I believe it still is a good buy but it's definately lacking in certain areas.
That's about to change and I continue to welcome ideas and criticisms.
#65
08/04/2009 (10:54 am)
@Tom: The thing is, that those were fundamental issues like video, sfx etc. They now become a common problem for T2D and T3D whereas before TGB branched. From now on T2D and T3D will live in the same repo and be built the same way. During this year T2D has gained so many features by just being wed-locked in this way.
#66
I can't wait for a build to show up in my account (maybe I should just use that first look build...) so that I can give some old prototypes new networked life :)
08/04/2009 (10:57 am)
I have absolutely no doubts about T2D's future now that it's back in your hands, Melv! I was just hoping to explain a possible reason for TGB's oddities in the past.I can't wait for a build to show up in my account (maybe I should just use that first look build...) so that I can give some old prototypes new networked life :)
#67
On a personal note, this year has been one of the most enjoyable years of my working career. I get up every day and do exactly what I feel I was put on this earth to do, write code.
I spend a crazy number of hours working on T2D, more so recently. I've learned a lot since the time when I first put together T2D and I aim to ensure that this experience shows in the release of T2D. I'm not doing this alone though, on the level builder side we've got some smart folks working there.
I think this is going to be one of the best things I've ever done and I want it to help you make the best things you've ever done!
Hoo-rar.
08/04/2009 (11:05 am)
Thanks. :)On a personal note, this year has been one of the most enjoyable years of my working career. I get up every day and do exactly what I feel I was put on this earth to do, write code.
I spend a crazy number of hours working on T2D, more so recently. I've learned a lot since the time when I first put together T2D and I aim to ensure that this experience shows in the release of T2D. I'm not doing this alone though, on the level builder side we've got some smart folks working there.
I think this is going to be one of the best things I've ever done and I want it to help you make the best things you've ever done!
Hoo-rar.
#68
I reckon there can be alot of work done on the level-builder interface.
some minor features that make things easier to edit:
- when editing a property value and pressing TAB it should highlight the next value so u dont have to delete it to insert a new one.
- it would be nice if you could drag-select some property values and edit them together, eg: setting all values back to 0.
I'm sure I thought of more before but i cant remember them now. Just general stuff to make the workflow smoother.
Importing animation in TGB requires a single .png file with each frame contained in cells. As far as I can tell TGB does not import image sequences. This means that when I create an animation and render an image sequence out of my animation app, i then need to open each image in photoshop and stitch them all together into 1 image. This is more effort than I would like to spend just to import an animation. If I edit the animation and re-render it then I have to open photoshop again and stitch the images together again because ive never found a feature in any 3D animation app to render a sequence as multiple cells in a single image file. If you could include a feature for importing image sequences it would make me very happy. :)
TGB was the first scriptable app I ever used that doesnt have an integrated script editor. So much of the workflow revolves around scripting but u have to use a separate app to do it in.
Since purchasing TGB Unity 2.5 came out on windows. I played with it a bit and found the interface very nice. Take a good look at what they've done with it.
Asset management...
Do I need a TGB Pro license to benefit from a discount on T2D? Or do I still get a discount for owning TGB without the source code?
P.S. Who's idea was it to make positive Y = down anyways? I guess it was because you start reading from the top left of a page but its just weird. Every other app ive used had positive being up.
P.P.S. Sorry I made this so long. I babble alot.
08/05/2009 (7:43 am)
I come from a 3D animation background so whenever I look at an application I tend to compare it to all the various 3D animation packages I've used (Max,Maya,XSI,houdini).I reckon there can be alot of work done on the level-builder interface.
some minor features that make things easier to edit:
- when editing a property value and pressing TAB it should highlight the next value so u dont have to delete it to insert a new one.
- it would be nice if you could drag-select some property values and edit them together, eg: setting all values back to 0.
I'm sure I thought of more before but i cant remember them now. Just general stuff to make the workflow smoother.
Importing animation in TGB requires a single .png file with each frame contained in cells. As far as I can tell TGB does not import image sequences. This means that when I create an animation and render an image sequence out of my animation app, i then need to open each image in photoshop and stitch them all together into 1 image. This is more effort than I would like to spend just to import an animation. If I edit the animation and re-render it then I have to open photoshop again and stitch the images together again because ive never found a feature in any 3D animation app to render a sequence as multiple cells in a single image file. If you could include a feature for importing image sequences it would make me very happy. :)
TGB was the first scriptable app I ever used that doesnt have an integrated script editor. So much of the workflow revolves around scripting but u have to use a separate app to do it in.
Since purchasing TGB Unity 2.5 came out on windows. I played with it a bit and found the interface very nice. Take a good look at what they've done with it.
Asset management...
Do I need a TGB Pro license to benefit from a discount on T2D? Or do I still get a discount for owning TGB without the source code?
P.S. Who's idea was it to make positive Y = down anyways? I guess it was because you start reading from the top left of a page but its just weird. Every other app ive used had positive being up.
P.P.S. Sorry I made this so long. I babble alot.
#69
08/05/2009 (7:47 am)
Good feedback and you may be pleased to know that nothing you've just said is new to us and all this stuff has been discussed internally. :) 
#70
The new engine sounds like something i would buy five times! :D
08/05/2009 (9:23 pm)
This is going to be interesting how this whole thing unfolds. The new engine sounds like something i would buy five times! :D
#71
Another thing that could be cool is some sort of post-rendering effects layer (motion-blur, glows, shockwave/ripple-distortion-effects). I'm pretty sure the current TGB doesnt have this capability and with the current technologies in hardware acceleration its pretty much a necessity to have that kind of eye candy in a 2D game.
Keep up the good work.
08/06/2009 (3:47 am)
Awesome :DAnother thing that could be cool is some sort of post-rendering effects layer (motion-blur, glows, shockwave/ripple-distortion-effects). I'm pretty sure the current TGB doesnt have this capability and with the current technologies in hardware acceleration its pretty much a necessity to have that kind of eye candy in a 2D game.
Keep up the good work.
#72
But if you absolutely want to crush ALL competition: make also an event system akin to RPG Maker/Game Maker to attract newcomers and artists who are game makers.
Though I think you better delay that for a latter release, you should first iron up the current torquescript-based formula to perfection.
OR, you could make a 3D TGB engine, same workflow and tools, except in 3D: THAT would rock my world (but it has nothing to do with your question ^^').
Ah, One last thing: some good garbage collector graphs and some advanced profiling tools would save many lives. Making a game with TS in TGB is easy, but debugging and optimizing is not, especially when you try to make an action game (you know it Melv ^^' )
08/09/2009 (2:37 pm)
Quote:Please, take time to look at the latest versions of TGEA and Torque 3D. Compare the editors, the new features, the documentation, the development transparency, the improvements, etc. Now, I want you to replace TGEA with Torque Game Builder.Apart for the list I already made for the precedent Development blog, I don't think you can make Torque 2D any better than that. Because TGB was already sooo much better for 2D than any TGE(A) was ever for 3D.
But if you absolutely want to crush ALL competition: make also an event system akin to RPG Maker/Game Maker to attract newcomers and artists who are game makers.
Though I think you better delay that for a latter release, you should first iron up the current torquescript-based formula to perfection.
OR, you could make a 3D TGB engine, same workflow and tools, except in 3D: THAT would rock my world (but it has nothing to do with your question ^^').
Ah, One last thing: some good garbage collector graphs and some advanced profiling tools would save many lives. Making a game with TS in TGB is easy, but debugging and optimizing is not, especially when you try to make an action game (you know it Melv ^^' )
#73
What about a 2D Terrain editor, where you can raise the terrain polygons up and down, put caves in terrain, and paint textures, to make realistic looking 2D Terrain? Or concave physics support? What about an editor that lets you make tiles for your game? Also, how about support for drawing objects in the editor, like Flash has? Just a few things I thought would be cool, hope you guys already have some implementations of those planned.
08/19/2009 (4:34 pm)
Quote:Please, take time to look at the latest versions of TGEA and Torque 3D. Compare the editors, the new features, the documentation, the development transparency, the improvements, etc. Now, I want you to replace TGEA with Torque Game Builder.
What about a 2D Terrain editor, where you can raise the terrain polygons up and down, put caves in terrain, and paint textures, to make realistic looking 2D Terrain? Or concave physics support? What about an editor that lets you make tiles for your game? Also, how about support for drawing objects in the editor, like Flash has? Just a few things I thought would be cool, hope you guys already have some implementations of those planned.
#74
Btw, is there an estimated release date anywhere? Can we expect this within the year or before next summer?
Also, to World-Loom (the person who said realtime networking would be useless): you need to get with the times. Multiplayer is what a lot of people require before they even purchase a game, even if the bulk of the game is single player. It's been a long proven fact that competitive and co-op additions to games make them infinitely more fun and dynamic.
09/18/2009 (6:03 pm)
If making ALL the documentation up to date by the time T2D comes out is impossible, then please make sure to at least add easy to understand, well structured and educational documentation on the new features like the real time networking. Please =)Btw, is there an estimated release date anywhere? Can we expect this within the year or before next summer?
Also, to World-Loom (the person who said realtime networking would be useless): you need to get with the times. Multiplayer is what a lot of people require before they even purchase a game, even if the bulk of the game is single player. It's been a long proven fact that competitive and co-op additions to games make them infinitely more fun and dynamic.
#75
I vote to keep it. It's very documented and we are used to it.
Thanks...
09/26/2009 (6:39 pm)
Do you know at this stage if you are going to maintain the same Torque Script that we all know for T2D?I vote to keep it. It's very documented and we are used to it.
Thanks...
#76
09/28/2009 (8:10 pm)
@Raquel: We haven't made any decisions either way. There are definitely two strongly opinionated camps of users: those who love TorqueScript and those who would rather we use Lua, C#, JavaScript, or something else that can be used in other non-Torque applications. We'll let you know when we make a decision one way or other. For now, Torque 3D is using TorqueScript exclusively, and Torque 2D will likely follow.
#77
I've only just picked up official copies of the engines, so maybe I am missing something in terms of how people choose to deploy to different platforms...but an all-in-one development environment would be really nice.
01/01/2010 (7:45 am)
I am curious if the Torque team would consider a studio style interface that would allow you to download one project, then enable options as purchased? To clarify, when you open "Torque" you can choose to work on developing a T3D app, a T2D app, and possibly even the platform you are developing for as a deployment option. Basically the way you start up VS or XCode and begin a project.I've only just picked up official copies of the engines, so maybe I am missing something in terms of how people choose to deploy to different platforms...but an all-in-one development environment would be really nice.
Employee Melv May
In terms of better support, I'd like to see anyone get better support without actually paying for it (which very few do). Most product forums are full of reported bugs! Granted though and I believe your point was better tracking of bugs?
In terms of "removal of obvious mistakes", I have no idea where that comment is, it's certainly not in any TGB code I wrote or am aware of. Perhaps it was in the TGE core, not sure.
I agree, TGB never had a decent asset management solution.
I would also like to say that you seem to talk about bug fixes as if I never spent months fixing stuff. The ones that get fixed are soon forgotten about, the ones that don't are talked about often. I guess the very fact that you've got a community who has access to source-code and collaborates to fix bugs is the shiny gem of the Torque engines. Many, many community fixes got rolled into the engine but not every one.
TGB is very old, time for the new. :)