Torque 2D Development - Expectations
by Michael Perry · 07/30/2009 (10:04 am) · 77 comments
In the first Torque 2D Development Blog, we wanted to drop a bombshell feature on the 2D game engine world. The announcement of real time networking addresses one of the most sought after feature requests for our 2D engine technology.
Before proceeding with more feature revelations, we are going to take this time to talk about Torque 2D expectations while we have your attention. The rumor mill has already started to churn, but now is the best time to address the speculation of how Torque 2D will be developed. First, let's look at the past.
There is not a single doubt that Torque Game Builder has been a success. When it comes to pure 2D development, game engine options are limited. Torque Game Builder has always been at the top due to the number of features and power it has offered. Developers have published games on BigFish, GarageGames, Steam, Xbox 360, the iPhone, and more. The engine has reached the hands of both hobbyists and AAA developers alike. Check out a few recent games with TGB you may have missed:
We're always excited when a well known brand picks up Torque to extend it in new, entrepreneurial ways. That's what happened when BioWare called us up last fall to talk about creating Mass Effect Galaxy for the iPhone. Created on top of TGB and Torque 2D for the iPhone, this game allows players to explore the story of Jacob Taylor, a biotic-powered super-soldier who stumbles across a plot to terrorize the mighty Citadel space station.
Torque Game Builder has been used to make hundreds of casual games, many of which have been published on one of the "Big Online Portals." Probably the biggest fish in the pond is, well, Big Fish. Long-time Torque developer Skunk Studios found success on Big Fish when it's hidden object game Flux Family Secrets hit the #1 spot in April and held it for many weeks. Now Skunk Studios has a contract to make more Flux Family games for the popular on-line portal.
One of the most compelling reasons to use TGB is to push it to multiple platforms. Windows and Mac comes right out of the box, but with pathways to iPhone, Wii, and the Xbox 360, there are lots of ways to get more eyeballs on your game. WhiteBearStudios choose TGB as it's start into Wii game developer, producing Sudoku Ball - Detective. With this game under their belt, they're aiming to produce more Wii titles with Torque and continue making great "jump-in" games with affordable and flexible tech.
During the 2009 Casual Connect, David Fox of iWin.com gave a talk about 3rd party frameworks and game engines developers had at their disposal. He was fair to all the contenders, but ended up giving Torque Game Builder a shining review.
The presentation ultimately came down to using the framework that best fit your project, so he created a list of all the features that would make the perfect engine. Perhaps my favorite slide in his presentation was the "Perfect Engine Matrix," where he listed features of a fictitious engine and compared it to real options.
We were very happy to see how Torque Game Builder stood up:
The Perfect Engine Features vs Torque Game Builder
You are not going to find a single game engine that fulfills that entire list, but it is obvious how close Torque Game Builder gets to the "perfect 2D engine." How many of those Xs would you like to see convert to checks? We are still putting the final touches on our road map, but we are feeling confident about most of those flipping. Real-time networking has already started the process of pushing Torque 2D beyond the already amazing TGB.
Another very important point David made was how well the engine fits your development needs, outside of a feature list. Again, TGB shines in all these areas.
Perfect Engine Dev Factors vs Torque Game Builder
*Low Cost - TGB has always been our most affordable engine for what you get.
*Community Support - Hands down, our community is one of the most solid and helpful when it comes to development. The original Torque 2D itself was spawned by a community member.
*Employee Support - The employee and contractor activity in the Torque 3D forums is way up, and will carry over to Torque 2D.
It pains me to see that the one X on that list is related to documentation, but we already plan to rectify this with Torque 2D. There will be a separate blog about this later, but you can still look at Torque 3D to see what direction this subject will go.
At the end of the talk, David gave us his "2 cents." Torque was his recommended choice for a 3rd party framework to make downloadable games. For web games, Flash is still the king. After all, has Flash ever had serious competition from a 2D game engine that can produce games embedded in a browser? Maybe it's time there is competition.
David was not the only developer with an opinion at Casual Connect. Several Torque veterans visited our booth to show off the games they made with our tech, and see the new Torque 2D demonstration. They even got a preview of the new editor, which is still in a very rough alpha. The responses were unanimous: Torque Game Builder is an amazing 2D game engine, and Torque 2D is on the right path to surpass it.
What's the Point???
This brings us to the core message of this blog: If Torque Game Builder is this widely accepted as one of the best, how do you improve on this? Sure, it would be easy to scan the forums and fix a few bugs here and there. Early on, we decided that was not good enough: for GarageGames or for you.
There is a reason we are switching to the name "Torque 2D." By now, most of you may have noticed we already performed a similar re-branding: Torque 3D. Torque 3D became more than just a TGEA 1.9 or 2.0 release. The engine evolved and has become the flagship engine everyone wanted to see GG produce.
Please, take time to look at the latest versions of TGEA and Torque 3D. Compare the editors, the new features, the documentation, the development transparency, the improvements, etc. Now, I want you to replace TGEA with Torque Game Builder.
We plan on giving TGB the same level of treatment Torque 3D has received in every way possible. Think of the major features missing from TGB, and the longstanding issues you want resolved. Look at every other game engine or framework, find its strongest point, then imagine that in Torque 2D.
Our final goal: Torque 2D will become the end all, be all, 2D game engine solution. For anyone who was concerned, we hope this ends the speculation of what effort will be going into Torque 2D.
Torque 2D development blogs:
- Post #1 - Torque 2D Development - Real-Time Networking
- Post #2 - Expectations
- Post #3 - Coming Soon!
About the author
Associate Producer / Project Manager for GarageGames
#42
I'm sure it will be another ground breaking thing like TGB (originally it was already called T2D, so are we back to Square 1 now? ^^), just upgraded to todays expectations and requirements.
TX surely has shown 2-3 things that wouldn't be a bad thing to have :)
I hope that it finally will get isometric rendering and editing capabilities. It would boost the possibilities seriously, and we all know that there has been some great work on an isometric tilemap editor (don't know who did the work), which looked very promising but it never was released ...
Generally I'm looking forward to an enhanced editor though.
Aside from a generally enhanced workflow, I am hoping that some of the current annoyances get adressed.
As nice as the TGB 1.5+ editor is and evolved, there are at least two things that evolved backward on 1.1.x -> 1.5
1. The Tilemap editor: No idea who came up with the idea of the "image index" button there could be a smart idea instead of using the same image select windows as in the create section (which were added with 1.5 to make it even more confusing to understand that decision), so you can just visually select the image from the current image map to place it on the tilemap.
2. Who came up with the idea to remove the datablock dropdown from the Create Page?
It actually made a 1 click thing a 4+ click thing.
I up-ported the related functionality into every TGB version of 1.5+ I used. After all there is a lot of space right of the image and linked image creation buttons for it and its really a significant time saver.
To explain the difference to those who never used TGB pre 1.5: you originally were able to select the datablock for the object you create, so for an RTS you just choose "blockMainBuilding" in the dropdown, choose the building graphics, click to place thats it. You now have a fully functional building. (also possible with triggers etc)
But thanks to TGB 1.5+, you now have to place the graphics, switch to edit, switch to scripting and manually enter the name of the datablock, at worst first looking for it again.
The alternative to that is even less productive: Using behaviors for such things which use inheritance on the datablocks is a very slugish way of handling it. They make the already annoyingly long 4+ click thing a 20+ click thing to add and configure them.
I use behaviors for dynamic things that change on the varying templates of a given datablock, for example to alter AI and other things.
But I would never come up with the idea to not use datablock based functions for stuff thats global to all these datablocks, the inheritance is just too strong and flexible.
08/01/2009 (9:49 pm)
Really looking forward to T2D :)I'm sure it will be another ground breaking thing like TGB (originally it was already called T2D, so are we back to Square 1 now? ^^), just upgraded to todays expectations and requirements.
TX surely has shown 2-3 things that wouldn't be a bad thing to have :)
I hope that it finally will get isometric rendering and editing capabilities. It would boost the possibilities seriously, and we all know that there has been some great work on an isometric tilemap editor (don't know who did the work), which looked very promising but it never was released ...
Generally I'm looking forward to an enhanced editor though.
Aside from a generally enhanced workflow, I am hoping that some of the current annoyances get adressed.
As nice as the TGB 1.5+ editor is and evolved, there are at least two things that evolved backward on 1.1.x -> 1.5
1. The Tilemap editor: No idea who came up with the idea of the "image index" button there could be a smart idea instead of using the same image select windows as in the create section (which were added with 1.5 to make it even more confusing to understand that decision), so you can just visually select the image from the current image map to place it on the tilemap.
2. Who came up with the idea to remove the datablock dropdown from the Create Page?
It actually made a 1 click thing a 4+ click thing.
I up-ported the related functionality into every TGB version of 1.5+ I used. After all there is a lot of space right of the image and linked image creation buttons for it and its really a significant time saver.
To explain the difference to those who never used TGB pre 1.5: you originally were able to select the datablock for the object you create, so for an RTS you just choose "blockMainBuilding" in the dropdown, choose the building graphics, click to place thats it. You now have a fully functional building. (also possible with triggers etc)
But thanks to TGB 1.5+, you now have to place the graphics, switch to edit, switch to scripting and manually enter the name of the datablock, at worst first looking for it again.
The alternative to that is even less productive: Using behaviors for such things which use inheritance on the datablocks is a very slugish way of handling it. They make the already annoyingly long 4+ click thing a 20+ click thing to add and configure them.
I use behaviors for dynamic things that change on the varying templates of a given datablock, for example to alter AI and other things.
But I would never come up with the idea to not use datablock based functions for stuff thats global to all these datablocks, the inheritance is just too strong and flexible.
#43
08/02/2009 (2:27 pm)
I read through but did not notice if T2D will be able to publish to the web ala T3D. Is that the last hurdle before Alpha? ;) 
#44
08/02/2009 (2:39 pm)
I was thinking about a feature I would love to see in T2D. I would love to be able to create an AI state machine based off of TGB behavior system. For example, if an AI is in its IDLE state, it uses the AiIdleBehavior, with whatever properties. That state would then be able to handle various game events to decide what state to go to next, that would be using AiAttackBehavior or AiFleeBehavior.
#45
08/02/2009 (4:16 pm)
Chad: That should already be possible, pretty easily actually because behaviors can be childs of other behaviors. 
#46
2. I noticed that T3D can have a web browser inserted into the game. This would be an attractive feature for T2D. Is this feature included? If so then it should be easy to acheive #1 above. Simply insert the browser in the game and have the browser open and play the .swf file which would be located on the internet.
Jason
08/02/2009 (4:52 pm)
1. Will T2D be able to play .swf (flash) files ingame? If so, this would make it easy to obtain ingame advertising and this is something I am definately intereseted in.2. I noticed that T3D can have a web browser inserted into the game. This would be an attractive feature for T2D. Is this feature included? If so then it should be easy to acheive #1 above. Simply insert the browser in the game and have the browser open and play the .swf file which would be located on the internet.
Jason
#47
08/02/2009 (6:31 pm)
Really? That's fantastic! ...Could we perhaps get an editor addition to bring this functionality to the forefront?
#48
Although there was a video that showed it, the feature is not present and from what last mentioned also won't be present until after T3Ds launch.
For TGB that possibility actually also has existed for a long time. The guys from Prarie Games made their Mozilla GUI Element a resource which you can just throw into your TGB Pro, change a few things as per the docs and you are done :)
08/03/2009 (12:38 am)
2. No it can't actually.Although there was a video that showed it, the feature is not present and from what last mentioned also won't be present until after T3Ds launch.
For TGB that possibility actually also has existed for a long time. The guys from Prarie Games made their Mozilla GUI Element a resource which you can just throw into your TGB Pro, change a few things as per the docs and you are done :)
#49
Advanced Physics System !!
Advanced Physics System !!!
... run on facebook ppfff such dumb "feature" to enlarge the list !
Then why not orkut or Messenger ?
But stick with the idea of Advanced Physics system (Box2d) and Real Time Networking (since already at your door), those 2 are REAL nowdays features.
BUT I WON'T PAY FOR EACH FEATURES, if I need to pay more then you should minimum provide these 2 features. Else it's not a bombshell features but a bomb billfold.
And the dev factors is not accurate at all !
What's funny is that TGB was first T2D then rename TGB to become T2D with this "update" because it will be just a huge update after all, but this time I know T2D will not evolve like I think TGB should.
It's a bit like Photoshop CS1 to Photoshop CS4.
Business is business but I feel so owned to go for TGB while only T2D will "probably" get the required set of features.
See you in 2011 guys ;)
08/04/2009 (5:24 am)
Advanced Physics SystemAdvanced Physics System !!
Advanced Physics System !!!
... run on facebook ppfff such dumb "feature" to enlarge the list !
Then why not orkut or Messenger ?
But stick with the idea of Advanced Physics system (Box2d) and Real Time Networking (since already at your door), those 2 are REAL nowdays features.
BUT I WON'T PAY FOR EACH FEATURES, if I need to pay more then you should minimum provide these 2 features. Else it's not a bombshell features but a bomb billfold.
And the dev factors is not accurate at all !
What's funny is that TGB was first T2D then rename TGB to become T2D with this "update" because it will be just a huge update after all, but this time I know T2D will not evolve like I think TGB should.
It's a bit like Photoshop CS1 to Photoshop CS4.
Business is business but I feel so owned to go for TGB while only T2D will "probably" get the required set of features.
See you in 2011 guys ;)
#50
I would also be interested in knowing specifically what you think is incorrect about the development factors.
With that aside, hopefully you'll be pleased to know that I'm not currently spending 12+ hours a day (minimum) working on stuff like FaceBook integration but seriously fundamental features that provide a powerful, unified, efficient and intuitive 2D engine with all the goodies that the majority expect. Our heads are not in the clouds, they're down on the ground where it matters. :)
I'm also not spending time working on ever-more high-level abstract features. This thing should be solid from the ground-up and you can hold me to that.
I am confident you won't be disappointed with Torque 2D and so I hope this helps to address your concerns.
08/04/2009 (5:38 am)
@Rivage: I hate to say this but ... chill. Everyone has their own wants and needs so there's no need to overly stress what yours are. If you actually read the blog content you'll see that the "feature" list is NOT generated by GG but by David Fox (iWin.com) during the recent Casual Connect. Nobody added Facebook to "enlarge the list" and it was used as a guide to things people consider the perfect engine. Despite what you may think, there are other developers who want to develop in emerging technologies. Also, this list was produced after-the-fact. We're not using it to decide what to do!I would also be interested in knowing specifically what you think is incorrect about the development factors.
With that aside, hopefully you'll be pleased to know that I'm not currently spending 12+ hours a day (minimum) working on stuff like FaceBook integration but seriously fundamental features that provide a powerful, unified, efficient and intuitive 2D engine with all the goodies that the majority expect. Our heads are not in the clouds, they're down on the ground where it matters. :)
I'm also not spending time working on ever-more high-level abstract features. This thing should be solid from the ground-up and you can hold me to that.
I am confident you won't be disappointed with Torque 2D and so I hope this helps to address your concerns.
#51
How the heck do you know this? There is NO publically released information on what T2D features will ship. Sorry to say this but this just sounds like toys being thrown out the pram!
Seriously my friend, I think you'll be happy with Torque2D so let's just wait and see. :)
Melv.
08/04/2009 (5:55 am)
I'm putting this as a separate post as you edited yours:Quote:but this time I know T2D will not evolve like I think TGB should.
How the heck do you know this? There is NO publically released information on what T2D features will ship. Sorry to say this but this just sounds like toys being thrown out the pram!
Seriously my friend, I think you'll be happy with Torque2D so let's just wait and see. :)
Melv.
#52
I know good dev are working hard on this precious engine but all I have in my hand is poor observations.
As hobbyist my budget as always been very short.
Since I can't loose anymore time I spend a year to design my own engine that features things I had wish for TGB when I buy it in pre-order state.
Now all I can do is waiting T2D and see if the features and the discount for TGB owners is good or then stick to enhance mine : but as hobbyist it's a lot of time wasted.
It's the whole commercial attitude that I regret here not the product in itself, you have to understand that.
08/04/2009 (5:56 am)
Of course MelvI know good dev are working hard on this precious engine but all I have in my hand is poor observations.
As hobbyist my budget as always been very short.
Since I can't loose anymore time I spend a year to design my own engine that features things I had wish for TGB when I buy it in pre-order state.
Now all I can do is waiting T2D and see if the features and the discount for TGB owners is good or then stick to enhance mine : but as hobbyist it's a lot of time wasted.
It's the whole commercial attitude that I regret here not the product in itself, you have to understand that.
#53
I'm way too accustomed to open source projects, sorry to sounds disrespectful.
08/04/2009 (6:03 am)
I was only meaning that T2D will ship with the announced set of features and nothing more. You know like a game update that fix stuff but won't add any important addition.I'm way too accustomed to open source projects, sorry to sounds disrespectful.
#54
When you say "announced set of features", you do understand we've only announced a single feature don't you e.g. Networking? There are many more features to be announced.
I just wanted to make that clear.
Melv.
08/04/2009 (6:07 am)
You don't sound disrespectful at all but even if you did, it's your prerogative. All I really care about is that you have the correct picture of what we're doing here.When you say "announced set of features", you do understand we've only announced a single feature don't you e.g. Networking? There are many more features to be announced.
I just wanted to make that clear.
Melv.
#56
08/04/2009 (7:27 am)
cool that you have a physics layers and you can integrate physx or bullet, or ode, or best: The Game Mechanics Kit! :D
#57
08/04/2009 (7:29 am)
I think you're thinking about T3D yes? Those physics "layers" don't apply to 2D unfortunately e.g. they don't scale down to 2D, at least not yet.
#58
maybe if you set Z = 0 ?...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics_engine
08/04/2009 (8:16 am)
mmm, so this means that you cant use these 3D physics libraries in 2D?maybe if you set Z = 0 ?...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics_engine
#59
My point was that T3Ds physics isn't suited for 2D right now.
EDIT: Forgot to say that there IS some interesting stuff out there like P.A.L.
Melv.
08/04/2009 (8:52 am)
I never said that but it isn't as simple as just using Z=0 (you can't collide edge-on with an infinitely thin surface) and you can gain much by using the simpler assumptions of 2D which is why you've get specific 2D engines. Obviously hardware acceleration is changing this concept though. A discussion of this is beyond the scope of this thread though.My point was that T3Ds physics isn't suited for 2D right now.
EDIT: Forgot to say that there IS some interesting stuff out there like P.A.L.
Melv.
#60
From the other side - what would be anticipated are:
* reasonable handling OpenGL and D3D - we've passed some tests only after switching to D3D under Vista which has mess with OpenGL and some drivers (Intel and AMD) not working together
* yeah - Vista and Windows 7 support - it's necessity - windows cover up to 90% of the market
* better assets management - sounds, imagemaps, fonts, animations
* working sound system - it seems to be common knowledge that TGB sound used to be "choppy" or "like old vinyl recording"
* better support - forums are full of found bugs, sometime solutions which were not included in any version released
* removal of obvious mistakes - inside code some comments are perverse like "we would remove this blockade during code review" - blockade stayed - no code review happened here?
* web playable - would be nice - but I'm afraid it would have to pass much time before shockwave and others accept new way of handling webgames - correct me if I'm wrong
TGB is a pretty decent engine - but have also a bunch of painless, unfixed issues - which we fixed on our own with great help from community. I hope that during switch to Torque 2D - most of them would disappear - like lack of actual documentation. Good sign for that is removal of backward compatibility - I believe it's due to huge code rewrite. Merging our fixes with new T2D may be really - ouch - do not even talk about that ;-)
08/04/2009 (9:01 am)
From my point of view as casual games developer - real time networking is useless or at least not too important. Sorry - that's the fact. Biggest portals generally do not allow any network connectivity - due to different reasons - mainly not wanting to loose their traffic. Even "cold website links" are prohibited.From the other side - what would be anticipated are:
* reasonable handling OpenGL and D3D - we've passed some tests only after switching to D3D under Vista which has mess with OpenGL and some drivers (Intel and AMD) not working together
* yeah - Vista and Windows 7 support - it's necessity - windows cover up to 90% of the market
* better assets management - sounds, imagemaps, fonts, animations
* working sound system - it seems to be common knowledge that TGB sound used to be "choppy" or "like old vinyl recording"
* better support - forums are full of found bugs, sometime solutions which were not included in any version released
* removal of obvious mistakes - inside code some comments are perverse like "we would remove this blockade during code review" - blockade stayed - no code review happened here?
* web playable - would be nice - but I'm afraid it would have to pass much time before shockwave and others accept new way of handling webgames - correct me if I'm wrong
TGB is a pretty decent engine - but have also a bunch of painless, unfixed issues - which we fixed on our own with great help from community. I hope that during switch to Torque 2D - most of them would disappear - like lack of actual documentation. Good sign for that is removal of backward compatibility - I believe it's due to huge code rewrite. Merging our fixes with new T2D may be really - ouch - do not even talk about that ;-)
Torque 3D Owner Brett Seyler
Default Studio Name
For people looking at purchasing iT2D (iTGB) to make an iPhone game now, you will be able to apply your full purchase investment to the next iPhone release if there is a price delta. Whether or not there will be one hasn't been decided yet. We're almost surely talking about 2010 release in any case, and there's a good chance that iT2D owners will get that upgrade for free. If we do charge for any new releases on iT2D, it will be because they are HUGE.
More generally, I'm *really* excited about finally having a big update for Torque 2D. It's been almost 5 years since we first release, and we've provided more than a dozen free updates and feature upgrades in that time. I think that as the web changes, we're going to see Torque 2D, as a toolset for creating 2D games and 2D rich media, become far more relevant. There's no question we're committed to games, but we're actively supporting every platform where people view media except the TV now. All the consoles, all the web standards, and dominant mobile devices (basically the iPhone right now).