Private Engine Forums Now Open to Public
by Deborah M. Fike · 06/12/2009 (11:37 am) · 80 comments
For many years, we've kept a closed lid on forums. Our engine-specific forums have been split in two: those that are accessible by everyone and those that can only be accessed by product owners. Starting today, most active private forums have been made public. Now you can access every single forum thread of all non-beta engines, including:
All of the above private forums have been merged with the public one, creating a one-stop shop for all your engine-specific questions.
You may notice that engines still in beta, like Torque 3D and iTGE, aren't on this list. That's because we want to incentive users to buy pre-orders when our builds still have some kinks that need to be ironed out. This process has worked absolute wonders on the development of Torque 3D, and we've been able to forge ahead on bug fixing almost twice as fast as before. In exchange for taking an early bet on us, pre-order users get exclusive information and a chance to impact our dev roadmap. However, once these products have a debugged release candidate, their forums will become completely public.
So why did we decide to go public? We originally wanted a place where people could share source if they owned an engine, but we didn't want that to be available to Internet pirates, and thus, private forums were born. However, this system hurts those developers who are legitimately evaluating the engine, driving away potential customers. So after some internal musing, we've decided to blow open the doors and fight Internet piracy in other ways.
We do ask all of our users to help us identify people who might be using hot copies of Torque on the site. We changed the forums so you can more easily identify an engine owner. Anyone with a Torque symbol or G Logo next to their name is okay to trust. Anyone who doesn't have either a Torque symbol or G logo is only a member of the site and does not own an engine. I've provided a handy pic for your reference:
If these users ask you for source code specific information, please be wary, as they may have stolen Torque from the black depths of the Internet. Feel free to report any suspected abuse to moderators@garagegames.com.
Have fun in the forums!
All of the above private forums have been merged with the public one, creating a one-stop shop for all your engine-specific questions.
You may notice that engines still in beta, like Torque 3D and iTGE, aren't on this list. That's because we want to incentive users to buy pre-orders when our builds still have some kinks that need to be ironed out. This process has worked absolute wonders on the development of Torque 3D, and we've been able to forge ahead on bug fixing almost twice as fast as before. In exchange for taking an early bet on us, pre-order users get exclusive information and a chance to impact our dev roadmap. However, once these products have a debugged release candidate, their forums will become completely public.
So why did we decide to go public? We originally wanted a place where people could share source if they owned an engine, but we didn't want that to be available to Internet pirates, and thus, private forums were born. However, this system hurts those developers who are legitimately evaluating the engine, driving away potential customers. So after some internal musing, we've decided to blow open the doors and fight Internet piracy in other ways.
We do ask all of our users to help us identify people who might be using hot copies of Torque on the site. We changed the forums so you can more easily identify an engine owner. Anyone with a Torque symbol or G Logo next to their name is okay to trust. Anyone who doesn't have either a Torque symbol or G logo is only a member of the site and does not own an engine. I've provided a handy pic for your reference:
If these users ask you for source code specific information, please be wary, as they may have stolen Torque from the black depths of the Internet. Feel free to report any suspected abuse to moderators@garagegames.com.
Have fun in the forums!
About the author
I write games for a living. <3 my job.
#42
these are the reasons that i think that make the resources private (code), make more dificult the things for pirates.
06/12/2009 (9:43 pm)
Quote:It will only be a problem when those pirates come to our site looking for free help for an engine they did not pay for. We are now ready for that, so have no mercy on them =)
these are the reasons that i think that make the resources private (code), make more dificult the things for pirates.
#43
So off the bat you know what they have, versus clicking under their name.
06/12/2009 (9:46 pm)
They Should have something like this So off the bat you know what they have, versus clicking under their name.
#44
06/13/2009 (12:09 am)
Hmmm...Nice, I like but un-realistic and unfair to all providers if you only list 4 to try avoid bandwith and scroll scroll your mouse listing all for every user, it would be advertisement thing if you do not stick to GG tech products only.
#45
06/13/2009 (1:06 am)
@Thanhda Tie: We're going to try something to make it easier to spot who owns what engines for sure. The icons are an interesting idea (and yours are pretty nice ^_^), but for the reasons that Omega Dog has listed, we've hesitated. Still, there's problem a creative solution we can come to, and we're open to suggestions! 
#46
As for the piracy issue i wrote an ethics paper on how people who use anti piracy measure sare for the most part harming only legitamate customers, and how piracy actually in many case has an opposite effect of what the 'industry' claims. In the case of GG products as with many many other products the vast majority of pirate copies are liitle more then 'demos' anyway, the chances of people making profit by using GG products is remote i'd say, professional people respect the tools they use for the most part, and imo piracy of a GG product is more likely to improve rather than remove sales, particularly if you privatise the resources.
@ deborah would it not be possible to take Thanhda's idea but add all icons (same size as the current ones) along the bottom as part of a 'signature' i for one would love a signature with that + my system specs like the many hardware overclocking type forums?
06/13/2009 (9:21 am)
I very much agree with the private resources, i see no real need for non owners to have resources, i do however think if you own one you should have access to all resources and codes espcially when you consider the "code once" idea, for the longest time it was frustrating seen the answers to my searches in only the TGB forum etc etc.As for the piracy issue i wrote an ethics paper on how people who use anti piracy measure sare for the most part harming only legitamate customers, and how piracy actually in many case has an opposite effect of what the 'industry' claims. In the case of GG products as with many many other products the vast majority of pirate copies are liitle more then 'demos' anyway, the chances of people making profit by using GG products is remote i'd say, professional people respect the tools they use for the most part, and imo piracy of a GG product is more likely to improve rather than remove sales, particularly if you privatise the resources.
@ deborah would it not be possible to take Thanhda's idea but add all icons (same size as the current ones) along the bottom as part of a 'signature' i for one would love a signature with that + my system specs like the many hardware overclocking type forums?
#47
I think letting non engine owners post will open the flood gates to pirates... and banning them as you find them, just means they setup account after account.
But only giving read access would hold them back.
And still allow future customers to look around.
just my 2pence :)
06/13/2009 (10:19 am)
Is it view only, or view and post?I think letting non engine owners post will open the flood gates to pirates... and banning them as you find them, just means they setup account after account.
But only giving read access would hold them back.
And still allow future customers to look around.
just my 2pence :)
#48
And please: no extra buttons, no product badges, and no signatures! Let's keep things as simple and as clean as it is now.
@Deborah: I've answered a few questions in the TGE sub-forum and it still doesn't show when looking at the unread threads listing.
06/13/2009 (10:36 am)
No posting in a engine sub-forum unless you actually own the product.... hmm I like that idea Joseph!And please: no extra buttons, no product badges, and no signatures! Let's keep things as simple and as clean as it is now.
@Deborah: I've answered a few questions in the TGE sub-forum and it still doesn't show when looking at the unread threads listing.
#49
Agreed, view only access would be key. People that pay good money for their products don't want to get ban. Non customers may end up being a bunch of trolls.
One thing i did wish GG would have was PM on the forums.
06/13/2009 (10:48 am)
@JoeAgreed, view only access would be key. People that pay good money for their products don't want to get ban. Non customers may end up being a bunch of trolls.
One thing i did wish GG would have was PM on the forums.
#50
these type of links are used in many forums.
06/13/2009 (10:56 am)
And a link text in the user badge or post (forum, blog, etc...) that say "report abuse" that redirect to a submit form?these type of links are used in many forums.
#51
That's a good way to contact us about inappropriate material, flame wars, or catching pirates in the act.
06/13/2009 (10:58 am)
@Javier - Well, in the mean time we have an e-mail address not being heavily used for this type of issue: moderators@garagegames.comThat's a good way to contact us about inappropriate material, flame wars, or catching pirates in the act.
#52
I don't think DRM is the answer, even Unity 3D which uses an online activation system has been cracked. (Windows version)
The difference in that is there is no source code.
06/13/2009 (6:33 pm)
I don't think this is a good idea. I don't think you can stop piracy either. I think some pirates were possibly deterred by not having access to private forum resources. I don't think DRM is the answer, even Unity 3D which uses an online activation system has been cracked. (Windows version)
The difference in that is there is no source code.
#53
I noticed a key isn't going to really stop them, I'm sure they can make what are known as Keygens which can get around key holes or serials so that would be worthless. I have seen cracked versions of TGB even, and I know you won't go out and tell us HOW your planning on working this new system as I wouldn't want you to post it for all eyes, and those which are pirates so they know the secrets of how your planning on striking a safe zone with the engines and our content in the long run.
Is there any backup plans for the content packs such as my Ambient Sounds Packs or current modeling packs on the site or will this new thing only cover the engines? Content should be protected as well, but yeah engines are higher on the hit list I'm sure and I understand why. Just some thoughts. Thanks in advance for the feedback...
Will
06/13/2009 (6:46 pm)
@ Deborah: Thanks for the reply. I also think the CONTENT too should be marked as who has what on their account, cause I have found stuff from AFX to my own ambient packs (which makes me ill big time to think how hard I have worked on these packs and someone gets them FREE!!) I have even seen the tank pack and most if not all of the packs including the stuff you guys have done like Overlord and stuff on the pirate boards as well. Is there no end to how we can nail these people for stealing our products?I noticed a key isn't going to really stop them, I'm sure they can make what are known as Keygens which can get around key holes or serials so that would be worthless. I have seen cracked versions of TGB even, and I know you won't go out and tell us HOW your planning on working this new system as I wouldn't want you to post it for all eyes, and those which are pirates so they know the secrets of how your planning on striking a safe zone with the engines and our content in the long run.
Is there any backup plans for the content packs such as my Ambient Sounds Packs or current modeling packs on the site or will this new thing only cover the engines? Content should be protected as well, but yeah engines are higher on the hit list I'm sure and I understand why. Just some thoughts. Thanks in advance for the feedback...
Will
#54
I hear you on the piracy thing. It really sucks that people out there steal our hard-earned tech away from us. And fighting Internet pirates can seem like using a teacup to push back the tide.
06/13/2009 (7:56 pm)
@Will: This new things only covers engines. We're letting the owners of the IP decide whether they want to keep the public/private split of their forums. And of course, DRM or any other anti-piracy measure are up to those owners as well.I hear you on the piracy thing. It really sucks that people out there steal our hard-earned tech away from us. And fighting Internet pirates can seem like using a teacup to push back the tide.
#55
World of Warcraft: the game is entirely online, and your online account is associated with a credit card number
Warcraft 3: has a CD key for local installs. Afaik, it doesn't have any annoying DRM to prevent you from installing it on 1000 local computers (of your own, or a friend's) today or in the long-term, but it is a small barrier. The CD key is associated with a battle.net account. You can only have 1 logged in at a time, and generally no one wants to share their battle.net account.
I thought of having useful private areas on the garagegames.com website as a variation of the (Warcraft 3, battle.net account) thing (but associated with credit card rather than CD key)... But I totally understand the concern about it meaning useful info for potential customers was hidden in private areas of the website.
I don't know if there is an easy way to separate (garagegames.com content that is useful only to people with valid licenses) vs. (garagegames.com content that is useful to prospective customers to purchase licenses).
06/13/2009 (10:37 pm)
Here are two examples from Blizzard...World of Warcraft: the game is entirely online, and your online account is associated with a credit card number
Warcraft 3: has a CD key for local installs. Afaik, it doesn't have any annoying DRM to prevent you from installing it on 1000 local computers (of your own, or a friend's) today or in the long-term, but it is a small barrier. The CD key is associated with a battle.net account. You can only have 1 logged in at a time, and generally no one wants to share their battle.net account.
I thought of having useful private areas on the garagegames.com website as a variation of the (Warcraft 3, battle.net account) thing (but associated with credit card rather than CD key)... But I totally understand the concern about it meaning useful info for potential customers was hidden in private areas of the website.
I don't know if there is an easy way to separate (garagegames.com content that is useful only to people with valid licenses) vs. (garagegames.com content that is useful to prospective customers to purchase licenses).
#56
I'm heading straight for the T3D forums to have a look see at what is going on with that. If I like what I see I'll invest in it, though I don't yet have the time to actually use it for anything sadly.
Need to polish up those iPhone apps :)
DOH! Should have read to the end of the blog. Looks like T3D isn't open yet.
06/14/2009 (3:02 am)
Finally!I'm heading straight for the T3D forums to have a look see at what is going on with that. If I like what I see I'll invest in it, though I don't yet have the time to actually use it for anything sadly.
Need to polish up those iPhone apps :)
DOH! Should have read to the end of the blog. Looks like T3D isn't open yet.
#57
06/14/2009 (3:09 am)
Well if you like TGEA, then I'm sure you'll love Torque 3D, seeing as it's the next version O:-). I guess at the $900 price with $295 TGEA discount it's $605...
#58
06/14/2009 (4:14 am)
Definitely good from a standpoint of trying to eval a product... specifically TX3D, which had a very lonely public forum. 
#59
06/14/2009 (11:38 am)
iTGB Studio owners also do not have icons ;)
#60
I spend more time in that forum than most others right now, so it's easy for me to check engine ownership if something seems fishy.
06/14/2009 (12:01 pm)
@Geoff - No worries on that. I've memorized every iTGB user in the forum =)I spend more time in that forum than most others right now, so it's easy for me to check engine ownership if something seems fishy.
Community Manager Michael Perry
ZombieShortbus
I've branched out my activity to other websites and forums, particularly in the iPhone area. I've got into some nasty arguments, which involved former Torque users calling me a liar, a hack, garbage, and so on. We can hold our own in most arguments, but the private forum issue was losing ground fast. I was berated non-stop in forums and at GDC by potential users about not being able to see into the iTGB forums. For a time, I was glad of this since it was a rather heated area of our site. However, things have smoothed out.
I can say this: Don't worry about the pirates. It's always been easy to spot them, even without the web team's awesome icon integration. If someone is asking about source code and doesn't have a Torque symbol, e-mail one of us and they will be banned. Let's be real, too. 99% of game dev pirates barely know how to run an executable. Do you think they will really figure out how to create even a simple demo? Nah...don't think so.
There are lurkers on our site that sit around and purchase our engines just to torrent them, and there's not much we can do to stop that. It will only be a problem when those pirates come to our site looking for free help for an engine they did not pay for. We are now ready for that, so have no mercy on them =)