Thank you, Garage Games
by Apparatus · 06/01/2009 (2:02 pm) · 27 comments
In the summer of 2004 I met with a couple of people who desired to make a game company. It was a laughable experience, nobody new squat about what that means or implies, in every sense of the word. Everybody was talking about everything else and nobody seemed to understand (or have any knowledge of the term) that in order to start a game company you pretty much need a game engine. What? Somewhat the initiators of this ..thing managed to bring to the meeting a screenplay writer. And a bass player. Hm?
In the time between the phone call I got with the meeting details and the actual meeting taking place, I managed to find 3 or 4 very affordable at the time game engines. Let's call them 'software solutions'.
The top of the list was Torque.
The game studio thing sort of faded away even before the meeting was over. However Torque remained in my mind for some reason. So I went ahead and purchased a license. You don't want to know how difficult was to buy stuff online at that time here. This episode alone is a whole chapter on the book about how goofy people can be.
Since then till about a while ago, I think I ran torqueDemo.exe a million times. I learned a lot, I wasted a lot of time too, and I had a lot more fun also. It was, indeed, a heck of a ride.
The reason I moved from games and reverted to basically just 2d stuff has something more serious to it than just a 'move on' thing we sometimes do in life. A while back I had a rough exchange of blog posts about violence in games and, while attacking the position of those games that simply have no respect and come into our faces with really violent stuff, I was myself into something like this. Not at the same scale (or profit for that matter) but still. FPS or First Person Shooter is, everyone agrees, a game genre. It is so all around us and so common that we rarely jump from the seat when we see someone 'shooting stuff'. And that's sad. It's how things are and it can't be changed now. Why don't we make games that won't require a weapon inventory? Why don't we have games like Katamari Damacy as the main stream genre and FPS as an obscure, strictly controlled and widely introspected genre? The fact that we, as a people, solve most of the problems in our lives with conflicts (instead of resolutions) is reflected into what we do, invading even the concept of spending free time / having fun. It's a very delicate matter and I am not debating it here. I just needed to step away and be true to my word. It's the least everyone of us can do. That doesn't mean we should quit our job or anything, but being a little less bad every day could someday lead to a world in which entertainment by means of violent expression is an absurd notion.
......
However, things we learn, we can learn in many ways. But people we meet is something else. The people experience is what changes us and what remains after is all done. And I must say, the community here was way over and above any expectations. So, in regard to that, considering the replies I kinda let flow on in the previous blog, I respectfully bow and say
In the time between the phone call I got with the meeting details and the actual meeting taking place, I managed to find 3 or 4 very affordable at the time game engines. Let's call them 'software solutions'.
The top of the list was Torque.
The game studio thing sort of faded away even before the meeting was over. However Torque remained in my mind for some reason. So I went ahead and purchased a license. You don't want to know how difficult was to buy stuff online at that time here. This episode alone is a whole chapter on the book about how goofy people can be.
Since then till about a while ago, I think I ran torqueDemo.exe a million times. I learned a lot, I wasted a lot of time too, and I had a lot more fun also. It was, indeed, a heck of a ride.
The reason I moved from games and reverted to basically just 2d stuff has something more serious to it than just a 'move on' thing we sometimes do in life. A while back I had a rough exchange of blog posts about violence in games and, while attacking the position of those games that simply have no respect and come into our faces with really violent stuff, I was myself into something like this. Not at the same scale (or profit for that matter) but still. FPS or First Person Shooter is, everyone agrees, a game genre. It is so all around us and so common that we rarely jump from the seat when we see someone 'shooting stuff'. And that's sad. It's how things are and it can't be changed now. Why don't we make games that won't require a weapon inventory? Why don't we have games like Katamari Damacy as the main stream genre and FPS as an obscure, strictly controlled and widely introspected genre? The fact that we, as a people, solve most of the problems in our lives with conflicts (instead of resolutions) is reflected into what we do, invading even the concept of spending free time / having fun. It's a very delicate matter and I am not debating it here. I just needed to step away and be true to my word. It's the least everyone of us can do. That doesn't mean we should quit our job or anything, but being a little less bad every day could someday lead to a world in which entertainment by means of violent expression is an absurd notion.
......
However, things we learn, we can learn in many ways. But people we meet is something else. The people experience is what changes us and what remains after is all done. And I must say, the community here was way over and above any expectations. So, in regard to that, considering the replies I kinda let flow on in the previous blog, I respectfully bow and say
Thank You
About the author
Tarakibu Studio
#2
06/01/2009 (4:22 pm)
The biggest problems with fps games is, they sell. For me, I'm making a totally non violent game. No guns, knives, swords. Hopefully, it will be fun for the player, and possibly (probably not) profitable for me. :-)
#3
Hate to see you leave gaming on this issue. As a former firearms instructor I cringe when this topic comes up, and I wouldn't want to bring it out here in your blog. Now you know why I avoid those threads as nothing will come of them, unless in the correct forum.
You are very talented, but I for one can not see why anyone would leave an industry because they feel a certain part of the industry is producing violent content.
Many feel the art industry produces violent content as well. Don't believe me, look around the net.
For me, I prefer to simply not buy or support the things I am not comfortable with the subject or content.
06/01/2009 (4:42 pm)
Apparatus,Hate to see you leave gaming on this issue. As a former firearms instructor I cringe when this topic comes up, and I wouldn't want to bring it out here in your blog. Now you know why I avoid those threads as nothing will come of them, unless in the correct forum.
You are very talented, but I for one can not see why anyone would leave an industry because they feel a certain part of the industry is producing violent content.
Many feel the art industry produces violent content as well. Don't believe me, look around the net.
For me, I prefer to simply not buy or support the things I am not comfortable with the subject or content.
#4
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God greated the heavens and the earth.
Genesis x:x God created many mean beast, man was one of them just smaller teeth!
Genesis 2:8 Cain Kills Abel.
Revelations: x:x Jesus kills un-saved man born from Adam kinda rough-ly.
06/01/2009 (5:07 pm)
It is hopeless like Randy said don't let Evil force you into a place in life that it wants you in.Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God greated the heavens and the earth.
Genesis x:x God created many mean beast, man was one of them just smaller teeth!
Genesis 2:8 Cain Kills Abel.
Revelations: x:x Jesus kills un-saved man born from Adam kinda rough-ly.
#5
And although I found that kind of intention in your aim, your "explanation" for it sounds a bit... weird.
The point is:
"you like to make games or not"
or even
"you like painting more than making games"
but
"I like making games, but those other people do games I dont like so I'll quit"
(???)
I agree with Randy, the underlying topic is beyond the scope of this blog. Focus on your decision now, because, with all humility, it *may* be not the best, if based on your statements on this blog.
06/01/2009 (5:43 pm)
@Apparatus, I feel an inner peace, every time I found people disposed to make big changes in their lives by accepting that the inner dwarf in the guts, is kicking in another direction.And although I found that kind of intention in your aim, your "explanation" for it sounds a bit... weird.
The point is:
"you like to make games or not"
or even
"you like painting more than making games"
but
"I like making games, but those other people do games I dont like so I'll quit"
(???)
I agree with Randy, the underlying topic is beyond the scope of this blog. Focus on your decision now, because, with all humility, it *may* be not the best, if based on your statements on this blog.
#6
Anyway, this is probably not a good place to talk about this, so good luck with your painting :D and feel free to post some of your works for us to see :D
06/01/2009 (8:44 pm)
Well, before kids start playing game, they watch television and before television there are stories. Most stories in variably have some good over evil, good vs bad or some form of contest. Television takes this concept and puts it forward in a form most easily understood, good vs evil, fighting. Even pokemon has fighting ! :P So... i blame it on... Television's presentation of the whole idea :PAnyway, this is probably not a good place to talk about this, so good luck with your painting :D and feel free to post some of your works for us to see :D
#7
Guitar Hero is a billion dollar franchise, for instance. Sports games are very popular. Even though I'm a fan of violent games, John Madden Football has been my favorite game that I've purchased every year since about 1992.
Most of the biggest online games from Korea, Japan, China are non-violent and have subscriber bases in the hundreds of millions.
Bigfishgames sells boatloads of games, very few of which have anything to do with violence.
There is no shortage of areas where you can apply your considerable talents without contributing to violence in games or being condemned to obscurity.
06/01/2009 (8:55 pm)
We obviously have a different take on the whole violence in video games thing, but this blog is pretty far off the mark regardless of that. FPS are not the "dominant genre", they're just ONE of the most popular genres in "hardcore gaming". But many of the most popular games in the world are non-violent games. Guitar Hero is a billion dollar franchise, for instance. Sports games are very popular. Even though I'm a fan of violent games, John Madden Football has been my favorite game that I've purchased every year since about 1992.
Most of the biggest online games from Korea, Japan, China are non-violent and have subscriber bases in the hundreds of millions.
Bigfishgames sells boatloads of games, very few of which have anything to do with violence.
There is no shortage of areas where you can apply your considerable talents without contributing to violence in games or being condemned to obscurity.
#8
What makes a Guitar Hero or Rock Band game, which glorify the drug and sex laden life of a rock star (or at least that message, through the many songs lyrics), any better or worse for a human than a violent FPS that allows people to shoot other people with imaginary bullets?
You can find good and bad in anything, anywhere you look, depending on how you look at it.
(end disclaimer ;)
I will miss seeing your work Apparatus, and I do hope that you come back again. Best wishes in your endeavors.
06/01/2009 (9:15 pm)
(GG Disclaimer, these are my own thoughts, not GG's etc. etc.)What makes a Guitar Hero or Rock Band game, which glorify the drug and sex laden life of a rock star (or at least that message, through the many songs lyrics), any better or worse for a human than a violent FPS that allows people to shoot other people with imaginary bullets?
You can find good and bad in anything, anywhere you look, depending on how you look at it.
(end disclaimer ;)
I will miss seeing your work Apparatus, and I do hope that you come back again. Best wishes in your endeavors.
#9
the people need entertainment, and if no more options for non violent games inmarket?...
In the other hand violent games sell because we are predators, we are violent by nature.
06/01/2009 (9:18 pm)
mmm, i dont know, i think that you can make other types of games, like games for kids, sports, simulations, or 2D like casual games etc...the people need entertainment, and if no more options for non violent games inmarket?...
In the other hand violent games sell because we are predators, we are violent by nature.
#10
on the note of game violence, my personal opinion is that anyone whose perception of reality is so twisted that they cant tell the difference between duke 3D and their high school has much more deep seeded mental problems than what is caused by games, and even if they never played a game in their life its still very likely they would have snapped.
ive been playing violent games and wargames since i was a tiny child and loving them every minute of it. but ive been on the other side of a gun and ive seen a man gunned down in real life, and i tell you one thing is absolutely not the same in my mind as the other. both of those were deepy disturbing and nothing, nothing i saw in video games prepared me for what i saw and felt on those terrible days.
and sure, not everyone is as lucid as me, but you have to be very very sick for you to equate those two things together and that sickness is the problem, not games.
06/01/2009 (9:26 pm)
id definitely not quit making games because something you believe in is lacking in the industry. for me thats even more of a clarion call to keep going. why dont you make a game that is fun and exciting and not involving guns and violence? thats what we need, is more interesting and fun nonviolent games.on the note of game violence, my personal opinion is that anyone whose perception of reality is so twisted that they cant tell the difference between duke 3D and their high school has much more deep seeded mental problems than what is caused by games, and even if they never played a game in their life its still very likely they would have snapped.
ive been playing violent games and wargames since i was a tiny child and loving them every minute of it. but ive been on the other side of a gun and ive seen a man gunned down in real life, and i tell you one thing is absolutely not the same in my mind as the other. both of those were deepy disturbing and nothing, nothing i saw in video games prepared me for what i saw and felt on those terrible days.
and sure, not everyone is as lucid as me, but you have to be very very sick for you to equate those two things together and that sickness is the problem, not games.
#11
Well, personally I don't find that any of them are really bad for humans, so I can't really quantify that comparison. But they're not violent; you play instruments, you don't shoot anybody.
Though I've witnessed some minor injuries from flailing pseudo-musicians. And listening to some of my friends sing is worse pain than getting shot with a BFG. Crap...
06/01/2009 (9:30 pm)
Quote:What makes a Guitar Hero or Rock Band game, which glorify the drug and sex laden life of a rock star (or at least that message, through the many songs lyrics), any better or worse for a human than a violent FPS that allows people to shoot other people with imaginary bullets?
Well, personally I don't find that any of them are really bad for humans, so I can't really quantify that comparison. But they're not violent; you play instruments, you don't shoot anybody.
Though I've witnessed some minor injuries from flailing pseudo-musicians. And listening to some of my friends sing is worse pain than getting shot with a BFG. Crap...
#13
As far as violence in games, I am trying to build a game that is entertaining, and "without gory violence" at it's core.
That said, I do enjoy playing FPS games. I don't blame anyone for liking them. It is true that some games push the boundaries of good taste, and when children are playing those games that is bad. I blame parents for not paying attention to the ratings system and monitoring their kids game time. Worse is that some parents buy games like GTA for their young kids without even looking to see what the content is. They will of course blame the industry.
I believe that as we move into a new era of gaming, we are yet to see how violent games can be. Of course if there wasn't any money in it, they would never make and sell the games.
As long a people are willing to buy such games, someone will be willing to make them.
I think that it is up to the indie game developers to build imaginative games.
06/01/2009 (9:44 pm)
We will miss you Apparatus, your work has been very good, and our community is better with you in it. As far as violence in games, I am trying to build a game that is entertaining, and "without gory violence" at it's core.
That said, I do enjoy playing FPS games. I don't blame anyone for liking them. It is true that some games push the boundaries of good taste, and when children are playing those games that is bad. I blame parents for not paying attention to the ratings system and monitoring their kids game time. Worse is that some parents buy games like GTA for their young kids without even looking to see what the content is. They will of course blame the industry.
I believe that as we move into a new era of gaming, we are yet to see how violent games can be. Of course if there wasn't any money in it, they would never make and sell the games.
As long a people are willing to buy such games, someone will be willing to make them.
I think that it is up to the indie game developers to build imaginative games.
#14
Maybe not violent, but clearly not the best lifestyle for humans:
Good Luck, Apparatus. Your work has always inspired me and you are one of several artists that I've truly admired in the community.
06/01/2009 (9:48 pm)
Gotta go with Kenneth H. on this one.Quote:Well, personally I don't find that any of them are really bad for humans, so I can't really quantify that comparison. But they're not violent; you play instruments, you don't shoot anybody.
Maybe not violent, but clearly not the best lifestyle for humans:
Quote:
While many dream of being a rock star or a pop star, a new study being called the 'rock star study' has revealed that such a lifestyle can be fatal.
A new study has been released in which the lives of 1,050 American and European music artists and entertainers were charted between the years of 1965 and 2005. The 'Rock Star Study' revealed that music artists are more than twice as likely to die at a young age when compared to the average individual.
Liverpool John Moores University researchers studied the lives of the music artists and concluded that they are more than twice as likely to die young than the general public of the same age. Their report appeared in the Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health.
According to Kansascity.Com, the team studied 1,064 stars from the rock, punk, rap, rhythm and blues, electronic and new-age genres in the "All Time Top 1,000" albums published in 2000. They compared each artist's age at death with that of European and U.S. citizens of similar backgrounds, sex and ethnicity.
The report found that from two to 25 years after the onset of fame, the risk of death was two to three times higher for music stars than for members of the general population matched for age, sex, nationality and ethnic background. In all, 100 of the stars studied had died - 7.3 percent of women and 9.6 percent of men. The average age of death was 42 for North American stars and 35 for European stars.
25 percent of the deaths were a result of long-term alcohol and/or drug use.
Good Luck, Apparatus. Your work has always inspired me and you are one of several artists that I've truly admired in the community.
#15
Playing Guitar Hero doesn't give you the lifestyle of a rock star. It just gives people an outlet to pretend that they can play musical instruments along with some popular songs.
And I would submit that the quality of one's lifestyle isn't necessarily linked to how long they live. Different people have different ideas about what makes a quality life. 45 years of excitement is often preferable to 90 years of boredom. People who actively seek out excitement of many kinds are generally more likely to die early than average people.
06/01/2009 (10:09 pm)
Quote:
Maybe not violent, but clearly not the best lifestyle for humans:
Playing Guitar Hero doesn't give you the lifestyle of a rock star. It just gives people an outlet to pretend that they can play musical instruments along with some popular songs.
And I would submit that the quality of one's lifestyle isn't necessarily linked to how long they live. Different people have different ideas about what makes a quality life. 45 years of excitement is often preferable to 90 years of boredom. People who actively seek out excitement of many kinds are generally more likely to die early than average people.
#16
I am merely going to bid Apparatus a fond farewell and wish you luck with all your future endeavours.
Anyone who makes a life change and does it because they want to do it earns major kudos in my books.
Gonna miss you on the forums and thank you for all your awesome contributions.
Good luck and Peace out.
06/01/2009 (11:05 pm)
Wooooah ... this is a hot topic.I am merely going to bid Apparatus a fond farewell and wish you luck with all your future endeavours.
Anyone who makes a life change and does it because they want to do it earns major kudos in my books.
Gonna miss you on the forums and thank you for all your awesome contributions.
Good luck and Peace out.
#17
But dying by 42 because of liver failure, a drug overdose, suicide, or stress related heart attack is not what I would imagine any rational person would consider a crowning end to a quality life...more like the culmination of mis-spent life.
And I don't buy into the "exciting" life of a rock star actually existing in the form that it is portrayed (and I personally know a few folks in the industry, and their lives are miserable and seriously messed up) or that it is in any way preferable to the average persons life.
The "seeking out excitement/more likely to die" generalization argument doesn't hold water, in fact I just recently read of a study tracking hundreds of mountain climbers that showed their average life expectancy was about three years longer than the predicted norm for their social class. Sky divers, dirt bike racers, and many other exciting activities and lifestyles do not result in any truly appreciable differences in life expectancy. Using the skydiver as an example, one who makes 100 jumps a year for 40 years from age 25 to age 65, only has a statistical average shorter life span of 1.3 years -- that's not a 35 year difference. I've probably shortened my life more than that with the number of Pringles I've eaten.
You can have 90 years of excitement, just the odds of it happening as a rock star are pretty slim. Whereas if you're into a painfully miserable death as your liver fails or ODing while sitting on the toilet opt for the rock star because your odds are a lot better with that exciting career.
When it's all said and done, it's not a quality filled life that brings death at 35 or 42 to a rock star, just a really screwed up one. And in the end the real issue is we tend to want to emulate those we idolize, and it's not called Guitar Loser is it?
I am mostly playing devil's advocate here, since I generally believe Guitar Hero and the like are reasonably benign, as I do with most games --- although I do believe that folks in the music/entertainment industry are among some of the most damaged people on the planet.
What I'm really attempting to point out as clearly as possible is that Kenneth's original argument is sound and his point well made, you can find good and bad in anything, anywhere you look, depending on how you look at it.
06/02/2009 (12:45 am)
Quote:Different people have different ideas about what makes a quality life.
But dying by 42 because of liver failure, a drug overdose, suicide, or stress related heart attack is not what I would imagine any rational person would consider a crowning end to a quality life...more like the culmination of mis-spent life.
And I don't buy into the "exciting" life of a rock star actually existing in the form that it is portrayed (and I personally know a few folks in the industry, and their lives are miserable and seriously messed up) or that it is in any way preferable to the average persons life.
The "seeking out excitement/more likely to die" generalization argument doesn't hold water, in fact I just recently read of a study tracking hundreds of mountain climbers that showed their average life expectancy was about three years longer than the predicted norm for their social class. Sky divers, dirt bike racers, and many other exciting activities and lifestyles do not result in any truly appreciable differences in life expectancy. Using the skydiver as an example, one who makes 100 jumps a year for 40 years from age 25 to age 65, only has a statistical average shorter life span of 1.3 years -- that's not a 35 year difference. I've probably shortened my life more than that with the number of Pringles I've eaten.
You can have 90 years of excitement, just the odds of it happening as a rock star are pretty slim. Whereas if you're into a painfully miserable death as your liver fails or ODing while sitting on the toilet opt for the rock star because your odds are a lot better with that exciting career.
When it's all said and done, it's not a quality filled life that brings death at 35 or 42 to a rock star, just a really screwed up one. And in the end the real issue is we tend to want to emulate those we idolize, and it's not called Guitar Loser is it?
I am mostly playing devil's advocate here, since I generally believe Guitar Hero and the like are reasonably benign, as I do with most games --- although I do believe that folks in the music/entertainment industry are among some of the most damaged people on the planet.
What I'm really attempting to point out as clearly as possible is that Kenneth's original argument is sound and his point well made, you can find good and bad in anything, anywhere you look, depending on how you look at it.
#18
I had a feeling that was coming. Obviously dying from liver failure or drug overdoses are not desirable. But as that study points out; that accounts for 25% of the early deaths, the other 75% are primarily because these people have the means and the drive to do what few other people can do. Many of them died in plane crashes because they were traveling all over the place in private jets, for instance.
I would love to see that study, because I just read that 10% of all mountain climbers that try to climb Mount Everest die trying.
This study that you're quoting is not about "life expectancy", it's about the rate of dying young. The 42 year average is among those that died during the course of their study, which was a study that was studying young people. The ones that are still alive aren't counted in that average, which is 91% of them. I doubt if 9% of them dying at 42 drops the overall average life expectancy more than a couple years.
I can't argue that. Of course you can, and some people do, find bad in anything. Red pens and Duck, Duck Goose being banned in some places is a good example of that.
06/02/2009 (2:49 am)
Quote:
But dying by 42 because of liver failure, a drug overdose, suicide, or stress related heart attack is not what I would imagine any rational person would consider a crowning end to a quality life...more like the culmination of mis-spent life.
I had a feeling that was coming. Obviously dying from liver failure or drug overdoses are not desirable. But as that study points out; that accounts for 25% of the early deaths, the other 75% are primarily because these people have the means and the drive to do what few other people can do. Many of them died in plane crashes because they were traveling all over the place in private jets, for instance.
Quote:
The "seeking out excitement/more likely to die" generalization argument doesn't hold water, in fact I just recently read of a study tracking hundreds of mountain climbers that showed their average life expectancy was about three years longer than the predicted norm for their social class. [...]
I would love to see that study, because I just read that 10% of all mountain climbers that try to climb Mount Everest die trying.
Quote:
Using the skydiver as an example, one who makes 100 jumps a year for 40 years from age 25 to age 65, only has a statistical average shorter life span of 1.3 years -- that's not a 35 year difference.
This study that you're quoting is not about "life expectancy", it's about the rate of dying young. The 42 year average is among those that died during the course of their study, which was a study that was studying young people. The ones that are still alive aren't counted in that average, which is 91% of them. I doubt if 9% of them dying at 42 drops the overall average life expectancy more than a couple years.
Quote:
What I'm really attempting to point out as clearly as possible is that Kenneth's original argument is sound and his point well made, you can find good and bad in anything, anywhere you look, depending on how you look at it.
I can't argue that. Of course you can, and some people do, find bad in anything. Red pens and Duck, Duck Goose being banned in some places is a good example of that.
#19
you will always be greeted back to the community if you decide to return.
06/02/2009 (7:17 am)
You have brought a lot to this community, and made people reevaluate what is possible with torque. For that I thank you, and wish you good luck in your future endeavours. you will always be greeted back to the community if you decide to return.
#20
To Apparatus: have a great one man! And remember to always make the day your own! Cheers to the artist who showed us all that even old TGE could still be beautiful when in the right hands.
06/02/2009 (9:04 am)
Argument and debate is just another form of "violence" -- if a more controlled and sociable form of it. It's part of our nature, our cultures, our religions, our art, it's in all aspects of our entertainments, and will always be there. It's hard-wired into our genes. But how much worse would we be without that outlet. Me, I'm a guitar player in a death metal band, I play FPS games, and I probably read (and occasionally write) some of the most disturbing fiction in existence. All of which gives me a means of redirecting and channeling that hate, violence, discord, aggression, etc into something more constructive... and I'm glad for it.To Apparatus: have a great one man! And remember to always make the day your own! Cheers to the artist who showed us all that even old TGE could still be beautiful when in the right hands.
Torque Owner Bryce
Toy Story 2 was O.K.