Torque 3D Development - GDC Live Edition
by Brett Seyler · 04/04/2009 (2:31 pm) · 333 comments
Wow...another GDC behind us. This was a big one. I dare say it was GG's biggest ever. Josh Williams and I gave a talk on Thursday titles "The Future of Web Games" which ended up being packed full with standing room only. There was a tremendous amount of interest in both InstantAction Technology and Torque 3D. That went off fabulously. We did some private demos for the big gun studios. The GG booth was jam packed for 3 days straight, and despite bringing a full staff of GG'ers to San Francisco to help, I think everyone was overloaded with excited questions and lots of "when can I get that!!??" The really exciting part for Torque 3D stuff (which was absurdely well recieved) is that we've still only shown probably 50% of what we're working on. Some of you saw Tom Spilman's uStream walkthough of the "South Pacific" demo. That's all been captured and posted for you relentless viewing and scrutinizing below =) Obviously a lot of people put hard work into Torque 3D, but we really owe a lot to Sickhead Games for helping us SHOW rather than tell all of what Torque 3D is capable of.
Tom's gone way above and beyond creating a new terrain implementation (as you'll see in the videos), physics, procedural object placement brushing tools (called "Forest Kit" after the original tech it's based on), and of course, the new Advanced Lighting. It's not just Tom though. Russell Fincher, a great artist, is responsible for making most of this look as good as it does. James did the River and Road tools and Ross worked a lot on bending the World Editor to make all this stuff easily accessible and easier to use. That's just the high points, but they really are a great crew. We're lucky to have their help.
So, in this blog, I'm just posting the Torque 3D relevant footage from GDC. You'll see two demos below, both pretty ground-breaking stuff. There's a lot more on the way. This shakey cam stuff is great, but the video is low resolution and I want to get some straight-from-the-machine captures out to really show how good this all looks and how easy it all is to use.
There truly is a lot more to come. There's a more in depth look at the World Editor, a focus on the Road and River tools, Gerhard's AI and GPU Cloth, Physics, new demos, genre kits, and more. We're also going to try to get a live demo embedded on the website so you can see this stuff for real. All that, and our first build for pre-order customers is just around the corner. Since we opened up the pre-order promotion last week, you guys almost broke our ecommerce system with the flood of purchases. Sorry to those of you who were turned away while we tried to patch things up last week. Hopefully everyone who wanted in got in. Shirts are on their way, and the Torque 3D private forums are alive with anticipation. I can't wait to see what you'll all do with this new technology. I have high hopes :)
I also know that there a lot of unanswered questions from the nearly 500 comments on the last blog. I'm going to re-read those thoroughly this week and try to answer them all. Thanks for you patience and thanks again to everyone whose kept the faith and stuck with us. It's great to know there's still such a huge community behind Torque.
More development blogs to come. This is post #16.
Torque 3D development blogs:
- Post #1 - Kickoff
- Post #2 - Apparatus and Warrior Camp
- Post #3 - Luma's racing kit
- Post #4 - Josh Engebretson and Web Publishing
- Post #5 - Pricing and Licensing
- Post #6 - Pricing and Licensing CONTINUED
- Post #7 - Wetness & Precipitation
- Post #8 - Screeen Space Ambient Occlusion (SSAO)
- Post #9 - Matt Langley and the Torque Launcher
- Post #10 - Chris Robertson and Collada
- Post #11 - Depth of Field
- Post #12 - Advanced Lighting
- Post #13 - Soft Particles
- Post #14 - World Editor
- Post #15 - Pricing and Licensing ANNOUNCED!
- Post #16 - GDC Live Edition
- Post #17 - River & Road Editors
- Post #18 - Beta is UP!
- Post #19 - Light Rays, Undercity, Material Editor
- Post #20 - Mass Market Hardware
- Post #21 - Beta: Part Deux
- Post #22 - Marching Towards Beta 3
- Post #23 - pureLIGHT
- Post #24 - Lighting, Terrain, and Cloth
- Post #25 - Beta 3!
- Post #26 - Coming Soon!
About the author
Since 2007, I've done my best to steer Torque's development and brand toward the best opportunities in games middleware.
#202
The River is a single spline without any branches or splits. You could probably line them up carefully by hand and get something approximating your diagrams but it would take a little effort. All game development is smoke and mirrors =)
The first I had ever heard of OpenCL is at GDC a couple weeks back and we are so busy with Torque 3D that we haven't had a chance to do any real research into it. We will probably look at it after we ship Torque 3D but I doubt we'll touch it before next year.
04/07/2009 (2:41 pm)
Tyler,The River is a single spline without any branches or splits. You could probably line them up carefully by hand and get something approximating your diagrams but it would take a little effort. All game development is smoke and mirrors =)
The first I had ever heard of OpenCL is at GDC a couple weeks back and we are so busy with Torque 3D that we haven't had a chance to do any real research into it. We will probably look at it after we ship Torque 3D but I doubt we'll touch it before next year.
#203
04/07/2009 (2:56 pm)
@Tyler, you could definitely approximate any of the branching rivers you show with multiple river objects. You'd merely need to hide the seems where they meet up. The whirlpool example you show would already work with a single river (though it would be hard to get the edges to meet up correctly). 
#204
Yes, but what happens when crowd notice the smoke is dust bunnies? and the mirrors are just slabs of rusty copper?
04/07/2009 (2:56 pm)
Quote:The River is a single spline without any branches or splits. You could probably line them up carefully by hand and get something approximating your diagrams but it would take a little effort. All game development is smoke and mirrors =)
Yes, but what happens when crowd notice the smoke is dust bunnies? and the mirrors are just slabs of rusty copper?
#205
04/07/2009 (2:58 pm)
This look AMAZING, but a high quality video would be appreciated :D 
#206
You are awesome for answering so many of my annoying questions. And Yep animations a hacked physics using P-Zones lol.
04/07/2009 (3:03 pm)
@ Matt You are awesome for answering so many of my annoying questions. And Yep animations a hacked physics using P-Zones lol.
#207
04/07/2009 (3:09 pm)
I haven't seen anyone discuss this yet, but will there be DirectX10 support in T3D or is it still something to be desired :)? I guess we'll have to code our own DX10 layer again for T3D if it will not be available (i.e. it is not planned within the next 6 months or more).
#208
NVIDIA is porting PhysX to OpenCL, which could most likely enable PhysX acceleration on ATI GPUs, so that would be something that should be looked into. Better physics = better games.
I don't mean to bring up an OpenGL vs DX10, but would it really be realistic to support DX? Especially since the only true reason DX is popular is for it's multi-API support (like the .NET framework). And Direct3D (Not DX, D3D is the graphics part only) is not as powerful and fast as OpenGL.
04/07/2009 (3:18 pm)
Quote:The first I had ever heard of OpenCL is at GDC a couple weeks back and we are so busy with Torque 3D that we haven't had a chance to do any real research into it. We will probably look at it after we ship Torque 3D but I doubt we'll touch it before next year.
NVIDIA is porting PhysX to OpenCL, which could most likely enable PhysX acceleration on ATI GPUs, so that would be something that should be looked into. Better physics = better games.
Quote:I haven't seen anyone discuss this yet, but will there be DirectX10 support in T3D or is it still something to be desired :)? I guess we'll have to code our own DX10 layer again for T3D if it will not be available (i.e. it is not planned within the next 6 months or more).
I don't mean to bring up an OpenGL vs DX10, but would it really be realistic to support DX? Especially since the only true reason DX is popular is for it's multi-API support (like the .NET framework). And Direct3D (Not DX, D3D is the graphics part only) is not as powerful and fast as OpenGL.
#209
04/07/2009 (3:22 pm)
I have one more question while I'm on the role :). The mentioned AI implementations I've seen discussed around here, I'm wondering roughly what approach will/are they using? Is it behavior trees, HFSMs, HTN, some arbitrary goal based system or some ingenious hybrid (**secretly hoping it's the last :P**)? Whatever info on this will be most appreciated :)
#210
There will not be a DX10 GFX layer for Torque 3D.
There has been some internal R&D into a DX11 layer but I believe that has been sidelined for the time being.
04/07/2009 (3:23 pm)
Afan,There will not be a DX10 GFX layer for Torque 3D.
There has been some internal R&D into a DX11 layer but I believe that has been sidelined for the time being.
#211
04/07/2009 (3:25 pm)
I have been told that some of the AI work Gerhard is doing is based on particle swarm optimization (PSO).
#212
I think it's highly unlikely NVIDIA will make a significant push with PhysX in the direction of OpenCL. Mainly because it is from marketing perspective, at the current moment, direct competition for CUDA; also it quite a new standard. Ultimately it is up to NVIDIA. PhysX currently comes with direct hardware acceleration through CUDA drivers and when/if PhysX gets "ported" to OpenCL it will probably require no additional coding to enable, similar how CUDA does it now.
04/07/2009 (3:29 pm)
Quote:
NVIDIA is porting PhysX to OpenCL, which could most likely enable PhysX acceleration on ATI GPUs, so that would be something that should be looked into. Better physics = better games.
I think it's highly unlikely NVIDIA will make a significant push with PhysX in the direction of OpenCL. Mainly because it is from marketing perspective, at the current moment, direct competition for CUDA; also it quite a new standard. Ultimately it is up to NVIDIA. PhysX currently comes with direct hardware acceleration through CUDA drivers and when/if PhysX gets "ported" to OpenCL it will probably require no additional coding to enable, similar how CUDA does it now.
#213
Thanks a bunch for the quick answers, much appreciated :).
BTW keep up the great work guys!
04/07/2009 (3:31 pm)
Matt,Thanks a bunch for the quick answers, much appreciated :).
BTW keep up the great work guys!
#214
I REALLY like Ryan's idea here. And maybe the first to get the pre-Beta are those of us who haven't whined yet and are waiting patiently and happily and grateful for GG offering to the community what appears to be a $50k+ engine for $500!
04/07/2009 (3:42 pm)
Quote:
Ryan's Suggestion:
- have a closed early alpha ASAP for T3D pre-purchasers. ASAP = any day now. The engine is *not* necessarily feature complete, optimized, and may be riddled with bugs in areas.
- closed late beta (nearly if not RC1) for T3D pre-purchases. This period should ideally run at least a week. The engine is *feature complete* at this point.
- web-live and downlodable demos on GG site, launched with closed late beta, and (at a minimum) available to TGEA licenses, if not everybody.
- keep pre-order $200 discount up until product officially launches.
I REALLY like Ryan's idea here. And maybe the first to get the pre-Beta are those of us who haven't whined yet and are waiting patiently and happily and grateful for GG offering to the community what appears to be a $50k+ engine for $500!
#215
I wonder how a#@ sucking taste like :P
Seriously, that comment was like.. "oh goodie look at me, i wear 4 shoes to work just incase it rains".
People have a right to whine you know, its called "Freedom", you should look it up :).
Btw, arent you whining too ? over the "whiners" that is (while claiming you have some special rights and is better then us) :P.
04/07/2009 (3:50 pm)
@Peter Churness.I wonder how a#@ sucking taste like :P
Seriously, that comment was like.. "oh goodie look at me, i wear 4 shoes to work just incase it rains".
People have a right to whine you know, its called "Freedom", you should look it up :).
Btw, arent you whining too ? over the "whiners" that is (while claiming you have some special rights and is better then us) :P.
#216
So what I'm saying is, GPU acceleration allows you to have more "stuff" but doesn't allow you to have said "stuff" also affect gameplay in a meaningful way. Example: You have a stone building that consists of blocks, each being a PhysX actor. If you want the blocks to influence the player's movement, you're going to be killed in terms of performance because then you're doing CPU -> GPU (update the blocks) -> CPU (do whatever you want to happen when one hits your player) -> GPU (update the blocks based on the result of whatever you just did). Trying to do that in a single frame will tank you.
* - Round trip, i.e., do the physics for a ragdoll, then get the results in order to check something related to gameplay (such as whether or not a projectile hits a certain PhysX actor).
04/07/2009 (3:52 pm)
@Tyler, well, running PhysX accelerated on any GPU isn't necessarily going to give you the benefit you think it is. Anything that is related to gameplay-affecting physics will not benefit from GPU acceleration, because the round trip* will kill your performance (i.e., player ragdolls, if you want them to affect gameplay, would not be helped by acceleration on the GPU). It does, however, give you a benefit for things like debris particles and the like, that do not affect gameplay (allowing you to do more of them). So, the benefit is pretty minor, really.So what I'm saying is, GPU acceleration allows you to have more "stuff" but doesn't allow you to have said "stuff" also affect gameplay in a meaningful way. Example: You have a stone building that consists of blocks, each being a PhysX actor. If you want the blocks to influence the player's movement, you're going to be killed in terms of performance because then you're doing CPU -> GPU (update the blocks) -> CPU (do whatever you want to happen when one hits your player) -> GPU (update the blocks based on the result of whatever you just did). Trying to do that in a single frame will tank you.
* - Round trip, i.e., do the physics for a ragdoll, then get the results in order to check something related to gameplay (such as whether or not a projectile hits a certain PhysX actor).
#217
"Btw, arent you whining too ?"
LOL - yeah, I suppose you're right :) . Sorry didn't mean to slam anybody. Just wanted to point out that Ryan had a good solution I thought. I DO actually see the point of folks who would like a demo before purchasing. Makes sense.
04/07/2009 (3:55 pm)
@Bo"Btw, arent you whining too ?"
LOL - yeah, I suppose you're right :) . Sorry didn't mean to slam anybody. Just wanted to point out that Ryan had a good solution I thought. I DO actually see the point of folks who would like a demo before purchasing. Makes sense.
#219
Awesome! My tag is unique and official!
04/07/2009 (4:08 pm)
@Edward - Oh yeah...stalking you community members just got a lot easier =)Awesome! My tag is unique and official!
#220
"- CLOSED alpha release, for T3D pre-ordered customers only, ASAP. People need to understand that this is a moving target, feature incomplete, yada yada yaday. It's part of being an EA. No biggie...people understand this, AND only those that have already plunked down the hard earned cash get it anyway. Therefore: zero risk for GG!"
Zero risk? Releasing something before it's ready will cause negative reviews on the forums, and people thinking about pre-ordering won't.
Additionally, come on, the closed beta is supposed to be released this month, are you really THAT impatient that you want GG to stop debugging their code, package it up, and ship it now just to satisfy your need to monitor their development?
Their release plan has been stated very clearly, we'll be getting a beta and demos this month, full release is supposed to be May.
The videos look great, and I'm really glad that they gave us this PREVIEW of what's to come... this isn't the demo, this isn't the "Here's all the information you'll ever need to know to buy T3D." This is just a little bit of a teaser that those who didn't get to GDC would never have gotten a chance to see, and I'm grateful they were posted, but if I was GG, I'd seriously consider ever posting this content again if the piranhas are gonna go into a feeding frenzy. I for one do not want GG to go into completly black ops mode where nothing is shared, do you?
04/07/2009 (4:09 pm)
Releasing an alpha now is never going to happen,"- CLOSED alpha release, for T3D pre-ordered customers only, ASAP. People need to understand that this is a moving target, feature incomplete, yada yada yaday. It's part of being an EA. No biggie...people understand this, AND only those that have already plunked down the hard earned cash get it anyway. Therefore: zero risk for GG!"
Zero risk? Releasing something before it's ready will cause negative reviews on the forums, and people thinking about pre-ordering won't.
Additionally, come on, the closed beta is supposed to be released this month, are you really THAT impatient that you want GG to stop debugging their code, package it up, and ship it now just to satisfy your need to monitor their development?
Their release plan has been stated very clearly, we'll be getting a beta and demos this month, full release is supposed to be May.
The videos look great, and I'm really glad that they gave us this PREVIEW of what's to come... this isn't the demo, this isn't the "Here's all the information you'll ever need to know to buy T3D." This is just a little bit of a teaser that those who didn't get to GDC would never have gotten a chance to see, and I'm grateful they were posted, but if I was GG, I'd seriously consider ever posting this content again if the piranhas are gonna go into a feeding frenzy. I for one do not want GG to go into completly black ops mode where nothing is shared, do you?
Torque Owner Tyler Slabinski
Will the river/road system be able to do thinks like this?
Here is a lake:
And this could be a river system for connecting rivers:
Let's not forget the almighty whirpool:
They are crude representations, but I believe you understand what I am thinking.
Would anyone be interested in implementing it? OpenCL boosts performance highly.