Torque 3D Development - Pricing and Licensing ANNOUNCED!
by Brett Seyler · 03/20/2009 (7:53 pm) · 496 comments
Hey everyone! I know some of you saw the Gamasutra story that revealed some previously unreleased details about Torque 3D. I'm going to to try to clarify the whole picture, and fill in any gaps with this post here. Because it's GDC week, I'm already down here in SF doing some PR, talking about iTorque, and talking to some local studios about Torque and InstantAction. Needless to say, definitely keeping busy, so I'm going to try to keep this as short as possible and focus on the stuff I know you most want answered. We've got a big week ahead of us :) I'm guessing we'll get a lot more questions answered in the comments, so feel free to throw out anything I don't cover here.
When I first started blogging on our dev progress in December, I really didn't think we'd get as far as we have, as fast as we have. Torque 3D is really a huge step up from TGEA, particularly with respect to the toolset, usability, and content pipeline. I think users will react most to the effort we've put into the tools, and we'll be showing much more of that in the next few weeks. Of course, we've done some major subsystem updates as well (Web publishing, Terrain, Post processing, Particles, etc).
Licensing
I posted twice on pricing & licensing (one of which is still probably the most commented on post in GG history) and we definitely listened. These were the main takeaways from the roughly 400 comments (and numerous emails) I got since.
Quote:1. Support, especially ticketed support is in high demand. If GG can find a way to provide this, there are Torque developers willing to pay for it.
2. A low entry point to Torque is important, even if it means some restrictions in the EULA or deprecating some features.
3. Greater polish, usability, stability and overall quality are paramount attributes for a high-end Torque product.
4. A focus on tools, and particularly usability in the World Editor, is the most important area to address in Torque 3D.
So we took all that, and really put your opinions into action, both from a development standpoint, and with respect to pricing & licensing. Here is what we decided on:
1. Two versions available on the website, Basic and Professional, each with an Indie EULA.
2. Basic and Pro have a feature delta, with the Pro package being targeted at existing TGEA owners, or pro / prosumer developers and studios who might need to create custom code modifications for their game. The Basic package is targeted at new users, who want to learn the tools, and see what the engine is capable of. You will be able to us Basic to create a game, even though we expect it to ship as a binary only. When working on a larger team, artists and designers often don't need access to the source code, and in these cases, the Basic package will probably be a better fit, given that team members can share compiled binaries with one another.
3. For those looking for a custom EULA, perhaps for an entire studio or for a single project that doesn't qualify for our "Indie" license, we'll respond to inquiries to licensing@garagegames.com. I should note that we probably won't touch any requests to this address that aren't from developers serious about a more expansive license and with the means and ability to pay for it. For example, our typical Studio licenses start @ $6k for a small team, and go up from there.
Features
The Professional version of Torque 3D will include everything we've talked about thus far, and a lot of what still hasn't been revealed. For example, we're planning to include updates to Physics, new Terrain, a Decal Editor, a Datablock Editor, River / Road / Path tools, and a Material editor in the final release.
The Basic version will not include Web Publishing, Advanced Lighting, or the River & Road Tools, but everything else is in there. It will also be binary only. Again, this version is probably not a good fit for most of you who currently own TGEA. We're offering the big discount during the pre-order period only on Pro, and TGEA owners will not be able to apply any of their TGEA license fee to Torque 3D Basic. Only to Professional.
We've been talking about Genre Kits and Add-ons a bit as well. There's some really good stuff coming there, but we don't have any pricing to announce with that yet. There's the Luma Racing Kit (based on their game "Rev" published on InstantAction, and including some of those production assets). There's a much updated FPS Starter Kit with work from Max Gaming and Apparatus. There's Sickhead's Forest Kit (not sure if that name is final or not) which is *really* cool. It will let you paint down foliage, or just random objects to the terrain or into a scene. I've seen this in action. It's going to impress the hell out of people. There's also Gerhard's expansion (unnamed at present) which will probably include a lot of custom assets and functionality on top of what you've already seen.
The takeaway w/ Genre Kits and most of these Add-ons is that they will likely be Pro-only.
Pricing
So, let's break this down just a bit more clearly.
What will Torque 3D cost me?
If you own TGEA Indie (and I think this is most of you now), your cost to upgrade to Torque 3D Professional is $1000 - $200 (pre-order discount) - $295 (TGEA Indie contribution = $505If you own TGEA Commercial, you can apply your license to Torque 3D Professional the same way an Indie owner can with a final cost of $505. If you'd like something similar to a Commercial TGEA license for Torque 3D, you'll need to contact us directly.
If you own any other Torque products, you can still purchase TGEA and get the same discount described above for a limited time. The pre-order discount will expire when we release release the final Torque 3D build (expecting this to be in May at the moment). The first beta will be delivered to Torque 3D owners in April.
There is no pre-order available for Torque 3D Basic, and there is no discount on Basic for existing TGEA owners.
Why Pre-order?
Access to the Torque 3D Closed Beta -- First delivery in April An exclusive Torque 3D T-Shirt Torque 3D private forum access on GarageGames.com Up to $495 off the full version priceAs I mentioned before, I'm going to keep posting blogs all the way up to our release, and probably for a while thereafter. We've still got a lot to show.
More sidebars and development blogs to come. This is post #15.
Torque 3D development blogs:
- Post #1 - Kickoff
- Post #2 - Apparatus and Warrior Camp
- Post #3 - Luma's racing kit
- Post #4 - Josh Engebretson and Web Publishing
- Post #5 - Pricing and Licensing
- Post #6 - Pricing and Licensing CONTINUED
- Post #7 - Wetness & Precipitation
- Post #8 - Screeen Space Ambient Occlusion (SSAO)
- Post #9 - Matt Langley and the Torque Launcher
- Post #10 - Chris Robertson and Collada
- Post #11 - Depth of Field
- Post #12 - Advanced Lighting
- Post #13 - Soft Particles
- Post #14 - World Editor
- Post #15 - Pricing and Licensing ANNOUNCED!
- Post #16 - GDC Live Edition
- Post #17 - River & Road Editors
- Post #18 - Beta is UP!
- Post #19 - Light Rays, Undercity, Material Editor
- Post #20 - Mass Market Hardware
- Post #21 - Beta: Part Deux
- Post #22 - Marching Towards Beta 3
- Post #23 - pureLIGHT
- Post #24 - Lighting, Terrain, and Cloth
- Post #25 - Beta 3!
- Post #26 - Coming Soon!
About the author
Since 2007, I've done my best to steer Torque's development and brand toward the best opportunities in games middleware.
#462
04/01/2009 (6:40 pm)
I plan to implement a facial animation system upon the Yack pack dialog system in the near future. So just wondering if Torque 3D would support shader driven skinning or morph targets on the GPU?
#463
I think I'm the only one bothered by this but is anyone concerned about the licensing where we are only allowed to create games with the Professional version of T3D? I would really like to use the simulation capabilities in Torque to enhance my web site experience -- not necessarily create games with the software.
How many more shoot-em-up 3D games does this world need? I know there are very nice programs that use Torque such as Marble Blast and Bridge Construction Kit (BCK). Is BCK considered a game? I have not used the program but it appears to be more like a simulation program than a game. Would the Enterprise license fall under BCK?
This little issue has kept me from grabbing my credit card and ordering T3D. Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks!
04/01/2009 (10:01 pm)
Hello,I think I'm the only one bothered by this but is anyone concerned about the licensing where we are only allowed to create games with the Professional version of T3D? I would really like to use the simulation capabilities in Torque to enhance my web site experience -- not necessarily create games with the software.
How many more shoot-em-up 3D games does this world need? I know there are very nice programs that use Torque such as Marble Blast and Bridge Construction Kit (BCK). Is BCK considered a game? I have not used the program but it appears to be more like a simulation program than a game. Would the Enterprise license fall under BCK?
This little issue has kept me from grabbing my credit card and ordering T3D. Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks!
#464
As I think it is arguably a game. A simulation version of BCK would allow you to design the road or river that your attempting to cross.
04/01/2009 (10:35 pm)
I think BCK wouldn't require the Enterprise license.As I think it is arguably a game. A simulation version of BCK would allow you to design the road or river that your attempting to cross.
#465
The non-game projects is in reference to those creating truly non-game projects. There are many projects no one ever hears about for instance. For instance, you might create a real-time forklift safety trainer - now that isn't a game. Other users might use T3D to create real-time architectural walkthrough - that is a non game as well.
04/02/2009 (2:16 am)
BCK is definitely a game. It was marketed and sold retail as a game. There are many simulations that are games as well. The non-game projects is in reference to those creating truly non-game projects. There are many projects no one ever hears about for instance. For instance, you might create a real-time forklift safety trainer - now that isn't a game. Other users might use T3D to create real-time architectural walkthrough - that is a non game as well.
#466
I asked them to make sure they clarify that, but I have my doubts they will. After 2 years of complaining they still haven't modified the RTS Kit description to mention it is no longer supported, which is technically fraud.
I'm still waiting to find out of Torque 3D is Windows 7 compatible, that's my deciding factor and hopefully, the folks developing Torque 3D actually tested it.
04/02/2009 (5:58 am)
Just to clarify, I have spoken to licensing and the Studio version of Torque 3D is technically not a license. You still have to purchase Torque 3D Pro. Torque 3D Studio is just a way to manage your companies/employees licenses, while it does give you the ability to do more things with Torque 3D, it does not include the engine.I asked them to make sure they clarify that, but I have my doubts they will. After 2 years of complaining they still haven't modified the RTS Kit description to mention it is no longer supported, which is technically fraud.
I'm still waiting to find out of Torque 3D is Windows 7 compatible, that's my deciding factor and hopefully, the folks developing Torque 3D actually tested it.
#467
I haven't been in on the Torque 3D testing, but I know that TGEA has been tested successfully on Windows 7. We can only hope that everything works when W7 goes live.
04/02/2009 (6:36 am)
There's nothing fraudulent about having a piece of software for an older engine still available. If that were the case, then bargain bins should be outlawed at retail outlets since studios and games have a way of tanking and losing support when closed down by their publishers. My biggest regret with the RTS kit is that because we tried to make it easy to get up and running quickly by including it in the complete source-base, it made merging it into newer source bases annoying.I haven't been in on the Torque 3D testing, but I know that TGEA has been tested successfully on Windows 7. We can only hope that everything works when W7 goes live.
#469
Thanks!
04/02/2009 (12:49 pm)
Hi I asked a question about a week ago or so and still no response, so I'll ask again. Does T3D have any kind of scripting ability like what Blender has with python to generate terrain, or dungeons? Think Instancing like most MMO's have now. Would I be able to incorporate the 2 pieces of software together? I'm an artist, and do not know, nor understand the work flow of the different packages to be able to work between them, I'm just curious for a upcoming project. Thanks!
#470
Hey, well you bring up two different kind of things... first it seems like you are asking about dynamically generating levels (dynamically placing meshes and/or terrains?), correct me if I'm wrong.
The answer would be yes, level files (previously called mission files) are a list of script definitions, so anything in them can be dynamically created and/or manipulated. Terrains can be loaded from heightmaps so quite a few options for generation here.
The second thing you mentioned, instancing like MMOs have, doesn't have anything particularly to do with dynamically generated content. A lot of the biggest MMOs use statically built levels for the instanced content. Instancing is just referring to loading a world/level for a set group of players and loading multiple versions of the same world/level for more groups of players, instead of pushing everyone into the same one. Some of them combine the dynamic generation methods you mentioned, some of them don't. Something like this has more to do with the type of game server systems you set up than with the engine itself and is entirely feasible in Torque :)
04/02/2009 (1:22 pm)
@Michael Burkhead:Hey, well you bring up two different kind of things... first it seems like you are asking about dynamically generating levels (dynamically placing meshes and/or terrains?), correct me if I'm wrong.
The answer would be yes, level files (previously called mission files) are a list of script definitions, so anything in them can be dynamically created and/or manipulated. Terrains can be loaded from heightmaps so quite a few options for generation here.
The second thing you mentioned, instancing like MMOs have, doesn't have anything particularly to do with dynamically generated content. A lot of the biggest MMOs use statically built levels for the instanced content. Instancing is just referring to loading a world/level for a set group of players and loading multiple versions of the same world/level for more groups of players, instead of pushing everyone into the same one. Some of them combine the dynamic generation methods you mentioned, some of them don't. Something like this has more to do with the type of game server systems you set up than with the engine itself and is entirely feasible in Torque :)
#471
http://www.blendernation.com/2009/03/27/two-cool-object-generator-scripts/
Thanks very much :)
04/02/2009 (2:14 pm)
Forgive me if this is not allowed, but I wanted to show ya what I meant.http://www.blendernation.com/2009/03/27/two-cool-object-generator-scripts/
Thanks very much :)
#472
Torque does not have anything built in for that, though you certainly could do something like that. You could even do something like that in script, especially since with Torque 3D there are a lot of script calls for creating geometry.
04/02/2009 (2:30 pm)
Ahh, yeah, most MMOs don't have randomly generated dungeons like that (Instancing is something completely separate though can be combined with that technique), though for certain games that can certainly be very cool. Torque does not have anything built in for that, though you certainly could do something like that. You could even do something like that in script, especially since with Torque 3D there are a lot of script calls for creating geometry.
#473
Something similar can really be achieved with Torque (Torque3D is fine, TGE/TGEA will require additional step: generating LightMaps/.ml fles).
I've done a similar things by my own about a year ago during my own "R&D time" while playing with an engine aside from my project.
In a last few months here (on GG) was a .blog about "Dynamic dungeons" or similar - building "levels/zones/mission" dynamically.
And even more back in time I remember someone done a text-based level building/loading in TGB. So, lots its possible as far as you ready to spend your time on it.
edit: spl
04/02/2009 (4:25 pm)
@Michael Burkhead:Something similar can really be achieved with Torque (Torque3D is fine, TGE/TGEA will require additional step: generating LightMaps/.ml fles).
I've done a similar things by my own about a year ago during my own "R&D time" while playing with an engine aside from my project.
In a last few months here (on GG) was a .blog about "Dynamic dungeons" or similar - building "levels/zones/mission" dynamically.
And even more back in time I remember someone done a text-based level building/loading in TGB. So, lots its possible as far as you ready to spend your time on it.
edit: spl
#474
I can’t stand without using it. (or I must spend some more months/years to make the same new features on TGEA…)
But the problem is… my credit card overseas use limit.
the TGEA owner discount price of 505$ in one-shot still makes me disappointed. (That's 5$ more than I can use in one month... :P)
What can I do but endure and wait for more-than-special discount?
How about apply some new payment methods like an installment plan,
payment coupons or points system, or something reasonable methods like that?
04/02/2009 (6:52 pm)
This new version is full of features all I need.I can’t stand without using it. (or I must spend some more months/years to make the same new features on TGEA…)
But the problem is… my credit card overseas use limit.
the TGEA owner discount price of 505$ in one-shot still makes me disappointed. (That's 5$ more than I can use in one month... :P)
What can I do but endure and wait for more-than-special discount?
How about apply some new payment methods like an installment plan,
payment coupons or points system, or something reasonable methods like that?
#475
Thanks in advance for a response.
04/03/2009 (11:32 am)
Quick question, and I apologize if this has already been asked, but I was curious as to what kind of texture file formats are being supported stock in T3D (Pro) for 3D models? Has that changed from TGE/A to T3D or is it pretty much the same? I've already pre-ordered T3D, but it'd be nice if there was stock support for .DDS textures.Thanks in advance for a response.
#476
04/03/2009 (11:44 am)
@Jordan, AFAIK TGEA has stock support for DDS. I do know that there is now (in T3D) also functionality for saving DDS files from the engine. 
#477
thanks
04/03/2009 (3:18 pm)
I was just wondering if there will be a T3D post this week (today hopefully!)?thanks
#478
04/03/2009 (3:42 pm)
Hopefully in few more hours here. I'm just now back in Eugene with a decent internet connection after being on the road for like 3 weeks :) I'm going to get this blog up before my weekend starts!
#480
Thanks for the quick response! I appreciate the info on the DDS format.
04/03/2009 (4:26 pm)
@RossThanks for the quick response! I appreciate the info on the DDS format.
Torque Owner Britton LaRoche
Way to go GG!!!