Torque 3D Development - Pricing and Licensing ANNOUNCED!
by Brett Seyler · 03/20/2009 (7:53 pm) · 496 comments
Hey everyone! I know some of you saw the Gamasutra story that revealed some previously unreleased details about Torque 3D. I'm going to to try to clarify the whole picture, and fill in any gaps with this post here. Because it's GDC week, I'm already down here in SF doing some PR, talking about iTorque, and talking to some local studios about Torque and InstantAction. Needless to say, definitely keeping busy, so I'm going to try to keep this as short as possible and focus on the stuff I know you most want answered. We've got a big week ahead of us :) I'm guessing we'll get a lot more questions answered in the comments, so feel free to throw out anything I don't cover here.
When I first started blogging on our dev progress in December, I really didn't think we'd get as far as we have, as fast as we have. Torque 3D is really a huge step up from TGEA, particularly with respect to the toolset, usability, and content pipeline. I think users will react most to the effort we've put into the tools, and we'll be showing much more of that in the next few weeks. Of course, we've done some major subsystem updates as well (Web publishing, Terrain, Post processing, Particles, etc).
Licensing
I posted twice on pricing & licensing (one of which is still probably the most commented on post in GG history) and we definitely listened. These were the main takeaways from the roughly 400 comments (and numerous emails) I got since.
Quote:1. Support, especially ticketed support is in high demand. If GG can find a way to provide this, there are Torque developers willing to pay for it.
2. A low entry point to Torque is important, even if it means some restrictions in the EULA or deprecating some features.
3. Greater polish, usability, stability and overall quality are paramount attributes for a high-end Torque product.
4. A focus on tools, and particularly usability in the World Editor, is the most important area to address in Torque 3D.
So we took all that, and really put your opinions into action, both from a development standpoint, and with respect to pricing & licensing. Here is what we decided on:
1. Two versions available on the website, Basic and Professional, each with an Indie EULA.
2. Basic and Pro have a feature delta, with the Pro package being targeted at existing TGEA owners, or pro / prosumer developers and studios who might need to create custom code modifications for their game. The Basic package is targeted at new users, who want to learn the tools, and see what the engine is capable of. You will be able to us Basic to create a game, even though we expect it to ship as a binary only. When working on a larger team, artists and designers often don't need access to the source code, and in these cases, the Basic package will probably be a better fit, given that team members can share compiled binaries with one another.
3. For those looking for a custom EULA, perhaps for an entire studio or for a single project that doesn't qualify for our "Indie" license, we'll respond to inquiries to licensing@garagegames.com. I should note that we probably won't touch any requests to this address that aren't from developers serious about a more expansive license and with the means and ability to pay for it. For example, our typical Studio licenses start @ $6k for a small team, and go up from there.
Features
The Professional version of Torque 3D will include everything we've talked about thus far, and a lot of what still hasn't been revealed. For example, we're planning to include updates to Physics, new Terrain, a Decal Editor, a Datablock Editor, River / Road / Path tools, and a Material editor in the final release.






The Basic version will not include Web Publishing, Advanced Lighting, or the River & Road Tools, but everything else is in there. It will also be binary only. Again, this version is probably not a good fit for most of you who currently own TGEA. We're offering the big discount during the pre-order period only on Pro, and TGEA owners will not be able to apply any of their TGEA license fee to Torque 3D Basic. Only to Professional.
We've been talking about Genre Kits and Add-ons a bit as well. There's some really good stuff coming there, but we don't have any pricing to announce with that yet. There's the Luma Racing Kit (based on their game "Rev" published on InstantAction, and including some of those production assets). There's a much updated FPS Starter Kit with work from Max Gaming and Apparatus. There's Sickhead's Forest Kit (not sure if that name is final or not) which is *really* cool. It will let you paint down foliage, or just random objects to the terrain or into a scene. I've seen this in action. It's going to impress the hell out of people. There's also Gerhard's expansion (unnamed at present) which will probably include a lot of custom assets and functionality on top of what you've already seen.
The takeaway w/ Genre Kits and most of these Add-ons is that they will likely be Pro-only.
Pricing
So, let's break this down just a bit more clearly.
What will Torque 3D cost me?
If you own TGEA Indie (and I think this is most of you now), your cost to upgrade to Torque 3D Professional is $1000 - $200 (pre-order discount) - $295 (TGEA Indie contribution = $505If you own TGEA Commercial, you can apply your license to Torque 3D Professional the same way an Indie owner can with a final cost of $505. If you'd like something similar to a Commercial TGEA license for Torque 3D, you'll need to contact us directly.
If you own any other Torque products, you can still purchase TGEA and get the same discount described above for a limited time. The pre-order discount will expire when we release release the final Torque 3D build (expecting this to be in May at the moment). The first beta will be delivered to Torque 3D owners in April.
There is no pre-order available for Torque 3D Basic, and there is no discount on Basic for existing TGEA owners.
Why Pre-order?
Access to the Torque 3D Closed Beta -- First delivery in April
An exclusive Torque 3D T-Shirt
Torque 3D private forum access on GarageGames.com
Up to $495 off the full version priceAs I mentioned before, I'm going to keep posting blogs all the way up to our release, and probably for a while thereafter. We've still got a lot to show.
More sidebars and development blogs to come. This is post #15.
Torque 3D development blogs:
- Post #1 - Kickoff
- Post #2 - Apparatus and Warrior Camp
- Post #3 - Luma's racing kit
- Post #4 - Josh Engebretson and Web Publishing
- Post #5 - Pricing and Licensing
- Post #6 - Pricing and Licensing CONTINUED
- Post #7 - Wetness & Precipitation
- Post #8 - Screeen Space Ambient Occlusion (SSAO)
- Post #9 - Matt Langley and the Torque Launcher
- Post #10 - Chris Robertson and Collada
- Post #11 - Depth of Field
- Post #12 - Advanced Lighting
- Post #13 - Soft Particles
- Post #14 - World Editor
- Post #15 - Pricing and Licensing ANNOUNCED!
- Post #16 - GDC Live Edition
- Post #17 - River & Road Editors
- Post #18 - Beta is UP!
- Post #19 - Light Rays, Undercity, Material Editor
- Post #20 - Mass Market Hardware
- Post #21 - Beta: Part Deux
- Post #22 - Marching Towards Beta 3
- Post #23 - pureLIGHT
- Post #24 - Lighting, Terrain, and Cloth
- Post #25 - Beta 3!
- Post #26 - Coming Soon!
About the author
Since 2007, I've done my best to steer Torque's development and brand toward the best opportunities in games middleware.
#402
...
The graphics of the trees and rivers look amazing and the possibility to do volumetric effects in the rivers to deside how much water is going through it at any point, THANKS GARAGE GAMES. THIS IS DEFINATLY WORTH PRE-ORDERING!
03/28/2009 (9:56 am)
I was just assuming with the road stuff, I can not wait till they show us the roads. If you look at the river tool I assume it will look a lot like that. They have to save something for us later at E3 maby...
The graphics of the trees and rivers look amazing and the possibility to do volumetric effects in the rivers to deside how much water is going through it at any point, THANKS GARAGE GAMES. THIS IS DEFINATLY WORTH PRE-ORDERING!
#403
Well I just spent all morning reading this blog there has been allot of good discusion! And I am totaly convinced T3D is the best engine in the entire universe for its price!
Now having said that It is defenetly a Indie Game Engine Someone with a small team making games maybe some profit coming in. For the hobbiest if thats all your doing than by all means thats not allot of money I spend that much a year down hill skiing or mountain biking in fact I just dished out almost 3k on a new mountain bike! for someone creating games as a hobby I dont think 1k is to much money. But for someone like me who doesnt want to sit inside at a desk every spare minuite I get creating video games I think its quite a bit of money on something I wouldnt use that much! I'm a student and still have school to do And I probably do spend 2 hours each night working with my TGEA But for $505 more right now I just dont have the money! The features that ship with T3D are so tempting its not even funny but when you just dont have the money there is nothing you can do!
What would be nice is if there would be a small student discount so that later in the fall after collecting cans all summer I could still get T3D for $505 latter this this summer! I can justify $505 but the extra $200 I'd have to spend sort of makes it on the to much side right now.
Other wise I think for only $350 I can go out and buy C4 Engine which has features just as good as TGEA (please correct me if I'm wrong) and comes with a Voxel terrain editor which even beats T3D!!

And a built in Shader editor!

-It supports Collada
-Lifetime free updates!
-Voxel terrain editor
-Built in Shader editor
-Very clean script
-Very well designed world editor!
-I would save $355

After saying all this I am not in any way saying TGEA is not a good engine I own it dont I! It is a totally awesome engine!! and I still think T3D ownes!! every engine in the market Including all the 250k engines!!! If I could I would buy it but I just dont have the resources right now But I wish GG the best of luck with it and hope everyone has fun using it without me =( lol!
P.S ssry if there are a few mess ups in the post I wrote it sort of quickly =)
03/28/2009 (11:47 am)
Wow over 400 posts and more keep rolling in! Well I just spent all morning reading this blog there has been allot of good discusion! And I am totaly convinced T3D is the best engine in the entire universe for its price!
Now having said that It is defenetly a Indie Game Engine Someone with a small team making games maybe some profit coming in. For the hobbiest if thats all your doing than by all means thats not allot of money I spend that much a year down hill skiing or mountain biking in fact I just dished out almost 3k on a new mountain bike! for someone creating games as a hobby I dont think 1k is to much money. But for someone like me who doesnt want to sit inside at a desk every spare minuite I get creating video games I think its quite a bit of money on something I wouldnt use that much! I'm a student and still have school to do And I probably do spend 2 hours each night working with my TGEA But for $505 more right now I just dont have the money! The features that ship with T3D are so tempting its not even funny but when you just dont have the money there is nothing you can do!
What would be nice is if there would be a small student discount so that later in the fall after collecting cans all summer I could still get T3D for $505 latter this this summer! I can justify $505 but the extra $200 I'd have to spend sort of makes it on the to much side right now.
Other wise I think for only $350 I can go out and buy C4 Engine which has features just as good as TGEA (please correct me if I'm wrong) and comes with a Voxel terrain editor which even beats T3D!!

And a built in Shader editor!

-It supports Collada
-Lifetime free updates!
-Voxel terrain editor
-Built in Shader editor
-Very clean script
-Very well designed world editor!
-I would save $355

After saying all this I am not in any way saying TGEA is not a good engine I own it dont I! It is a totally awesome engine!! and I still think T3D ownes!! every engine in the market Including all the 250k engines!!! If I could I would buy it but I just dont have the resources right now But I wish GG the best of luck with it and hope everyone has fun using it without me =( lol!
P.S ssry if there are a few mess ups in the post I wrote it sort of quickly =)
#404
03/28/2009 (12:47 pm)
C4 has ok graphics, but it runs slow, has extreme lag but is more user friendly then torque 3D before packs are added so I would take torque over lag any day but that engine doesn't look have bad, but torque looks better.
#405
03/28/2009 (12:54 pm)
I think torque is for the more hard core people and C4 is a good start but it is just that, a start especially if you look at c4's stricked financial agreement. Torque lets you make up to 256k while C4 is only 100 dollars, a rip off. I do not even get the point of C4 when it has such stricked agreements.
#406
The only area I can see that Torque has the advantage is in networking. C4's Voxel terrain blows Torque's terrain (whatever the latest iteration is) out of the water.
03/28/2009 (1:56 pm)
@J - I have MUCH better performance with C4 than I ever did with Torque. You obviously have no clue what you are talking about. In post #405 you stat that you can only make $100, not true. While you say that C4 is a start, I would agree it is a start in a great direction. Torque is a dead end.The only area I can see that Torque has the advantage is in networking. C4's Voxel terrain blows Torque's terrain (whatever the latest iteration is) out of the water.
#408
www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gf3sFBNOMk&feature=related
Now if T3D had that imagine what kind of an engine it would be!!!
AMAZING
03/28/2009 (2:16 pm)
If Torque 3D had voxel terrain I would buy It No JOKE! The voxel terrain is what makes me think C4 is ahead of Torque!! I just dont find that the terrain in Torque gives the engine justice!! It has everything down but the terrain!! check out this video of the C4 terrain!!www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gf3sFBNOMk&feature=related
Now if T3D had that imagine what kind of an engine it would be!!!
AMAZING
#409
03/28/2009 (2:19 pm)
I find it amusingly ironic that someone who claims to consider Torque a dead end is commenting on a post on page 21 of the Torque 3D thread.
#410
Why do you think Torque's code is hard.
Also it would be nice to know what the real limit on C4 is, apparently when I google searched and tried it out I got some false information, just an opinion sorry.
03/28/2009 (2:19 pm)
Hello, Torque 3D is not even in beta yet that means early graphics. Considering the graphics I have seen so far Torque 3D looks amazing! And this is not even near the final product, not even beta yet! Why do you think Torque's code is hard.
Also it would be nice to know what the real limit on C4 is, apparently when I google searched and tried it out I got some false information, just an opinion sorry.
#411
03/28/2009 (2:29 pm)
Hi I'm just an artist, who is also somewhat of a designer, and do not know the feasibility of this request, but I know Blender 3d has the ability to script with python to generate like an infinite dungeon and terrain map. Is there anything like that inside Torque 3d? Maybe its just dungeon and city landscape I'm thinking of?
#412
03/28/2009 (2:56 pm)
I just checked it out and C4 basic version (indie version) allows you to sell a product for less than $100 Quote:If you're going to sell a C4-based product for $100 (US) or more, you need the Industrial Edition.
#414
03/28/2009 (5:46 pm)
There is some discussion in http://www.garagegames.com/community/blogs/view/16765/ which might clear up some C4 misconceptions
#415
Hello, TGEA (then TSE) was once in Beta and even Alpha with published Milestones that for the most part, weren't ever meant. So while its nice to see that T3D as a whole should finally deliver on TSE/TGEA Milestones, based on the past, it'll be a year then T3D will be replaced with something "new" and for more money... so get ready
03/28/2009 (6:17 pm)
Quote:
Hello, Torque 3D is not even in beta yet that means early graphics. Considering the graphics I have seen so far Torque 3D looks amazing! And this is not even near the final product, not even beta yet!
Hello, TGEA (then TSE) was once in Beta and even Alpha with published Milestones that for the most part, weren't ever meant. So while its nice to see that T3D as a whole should finally deliver on TSE/TGEA Milestones, based on the past, it'll be a year then T3D will be replaced with something "new" and for more money... so get ready
#416
03/28/2009 (8:24 pm)
@Jeremiah: Are you saying you're dissatisfied with TGEA 1.8.1 based on the original product road map?
#417
03/28/2009 (9:15 pm)
@Brett: I don't know if Jeremiah is saying that or not... but assuming you think 1.8.1 achieved the roadmap, it was only completed a few months before the announcement of T3D, correct? If I am correct, all those who payed for TGEA prior to 1.8.1 bought an incomplete engine only to have the completed engine offered shortly before an announcement that the developers want to move away from it for a common code base in T3D. This would make Jeremiah's point valid... especially if the pre-order leads to an incomplete release with final promised features released just prior to the next upgrade. History would appear to be that the GG community pays for promises which has in turn funded the development which delivers the promises well after the official release. This explains the fork from TGE to TGEA, and then to T3D. I'm not saying whether this is good or bad, but just how it has appeared in the past. With T3D, it is very similar, we know some aspects will be completed and ready, but others still have question marks.
#418
i still waiting on there GDC videos it should show everything you need. also everything they have shown to us is final for T3D and it will be put in so those things will not be changed if they did change it then they would have to say cya to there further business with anyone.
03/28/2009 (9:16 pm)
Jeremiah you never read anything here did you. they said T3D will be there final 3D engine it will never be replaced with a new name ever all updates will be for it. have you seen the new terrain in T3D at what you can do it might not be Voxel Terrain but they have said now you can get there terrain just as good as Voxel Terrain.i still waiting on there GDC videos it should show everything you need. also everything they have shown to us is final for T3D and it will be put in so those things will not be changed if they did change it then they would have to say cya to there further business with anyone.
#419
03/28/2009 (9:48 pm)
Regarding C4, having owned it for years, its solid, but it really just a rendering engine. I owned both C4 and TGEA and I preferred to use TGEA. C4 is good as a rendering engine, but it doesn't do alot of things that Torque does out of the box. It is usable, and regularly updated, but if you plan on using it, then you need to plan on integrating a lot of other options on your own. So you may save some money buying it, but your going to lose some time integrating things that Torque does out of the box.
#420
You get the source... make it. :)
03/29/2009 (2:10 am)
All of you saying, if this engine had this, had that.You get the source... make it. :)
Torque 3D Owner J L
I am fortunate I still havent done my taxes but I am working on them now, so yes I will more then likely buy the pro but I still have not seen the road stuff unless I missed it, a video of a sort.