Torque 3D Development - Pricing and Licensing ANNOUNCED!
by Brett Seyler · 03/20/2009 (7:53 pm) · 496 comments
Hey everyone! I know some of you saw the Gamasutra story that revealed some previously unreleased details about Torque 3D. I'm going to to try to clarify the whole picture, and fill in any gaps with this post here. Because it's GDC week, I'm already down here in SF doing some PR, talking about iTorque, and talking to some local studios about Torque and InstantAction. Needless to say, definitely keeping busy, so I'm going to try to keep this as short as possible and focus on the stuff I know you most want answered. We've got a big week ahead of us :) I'm guessing we'll get a lot more questions answered in the comments, so feel free to throw out anything I don't cover here.
When I first started blogging on our dev progress in December, I really didn't think we'd get as far as we have, as fast as we have. Torque 3D is really a huge step up from TGEA, particularly with respect to the toolset, usability, and content pipeline. I think users will react most to the effort we've put into the tools, and we'll be showing much more of that in the next few weeks. Of course, we've done some major subsystem updates as well (Web publishing, Terrain, Post processing, Particles, etc).
Licensing
I posted twice on pricing & licensing (one of which is still probably the most commented on post in GG history) and we definitely listened. These were the main takeaways from the roughly 400 comments (and numerous emails) I got since.
Quote:1. Support, especially ticketed support is in high demand. If GG can find a way to provide this, there are Torque developers willing to pay for it.
2. A low entry point to Torque is important, even if it means some restrictions in the EULA or deprecating some features.
3. Greater polish, usability, stability and overall quality are paramount attributes for a high-end Torque product.
4. A focus on tools, and particularly usability in the World Editor, is the most important area to address in Torque 3D.
So we took all that, and really put your opinions into action, both from a development standpoint, and with respect to pricing & licensing. Here is what we decided on:
1. Two versions available on the website, Basic and Professional, each with an Indie EULA.
2. Basic and Pro have a feature delta, with the Pro package being targeted at existing TGEA owners, or pro / prosumer developers and studios who might need to create custom code modifications for their game. The Basic package is targeted at new users, who want to learn the tools, and see what the engine is capable of. You will be able to us Basic to create a game, even though we expect it to ship as a binary only. When working on a larger team, artists and designers often don't need access to the source code, and in these cases, the Basic package will probably be a better fit, given that team members can share compiled binaries with one another.
3. For those looking for a custom EULA, perhaps for an entire studio or for a single project that doesn't qualify for our "Indie" license, we'll respond to inquiries to licensing@garagegames.com. I should note that we probably won't touch any requests to this address that aren't from developers serious about a more expansive license and with the means and ability to pay for it. For example, our typical Studio licenses start @ $6k for a small team, and go up from there.
Features
The Professional version of Torque 3D will include everything we've talked about thus far, and a lot of what still hasn't been revealed. For example, we're planning to include updates to Physics, new Terrain, a Decal Editor, a Datablock Editor, River / Road / Path tools, and a Material editor in the final release.
The Basic version will not include Web Publishing, Advanced Lighting, or the River & Road Tools, but everything else is in there. It will also be binary only. Again, this version is probably not a good fit for most of you who currently own TGEA. We're offering the big discount during the pre-order period only on Pro, and TGEA owners will not be able to apply any of their TGEA license fee to Torque 3D Basic. Only to Professional.
We've been talking about Genre Kits and Add-ons a bit as well. There's some really good stuff coming there, but we don't have any pricing to announce with that yet. There's the Luma Racing Kit (based on their game "Rev" published on InstantAction, and including some of those production assets). There's a much updated FPS Starter Kit with work from Max Gaming and Apparatus. There's Sickhead's Forest Kit (not sure if that name is final or not) which is *really* cool. It will let you paint down foliage, or just random objects to the terrain or into a scene. I've seen this in action. It's going to impress the hell out of people. There's also Gerhard's expansion (unnamed at present) which will probably include a lot of custom assets and functionality on top of what you've already seen.
The takeaway w/ Genre Kits and most of these Add-ons is that they will likely be Pro-only.
Pricing
So, let's break this down just a bit more clearly.
What will Torque 3D cost me?
If you own TGEA Indie (and I think this is most of you now), your cost to upgrade to Torque 3D Professional is $1000 - $200 (pre-order discount) - $295 (TGEA Indie contribution = $505If you own TGEA Commercial, you can apply your license to Torque 3D Professional the same way an Indie owner can with a final cost of $505. If you'd like something similar to a Commercial TGEA license for Torque 3D, you'll need to contact us directly.
If you own any other Torque products, you can still purchase TGEA and get the same discount described above for a limited time. The pre-order discount will expire when we release release the final Torque 3D build (expecting this to be in May at the moment). The first beta will be delivered to Torque 3D owners in April.
There is no pre-order available for Torque 3D Basic, and there is no discount on Basic for existing TGEA owners.
Why Pre-order?
Access to the Torque 3D Closed Beta -- First delivery in April An exclusive Torque 3D T-Shirt Torque 3D private forum access on GarageGames.com Up to $495 off the full version priceAs I mentioned before, I'm going to keep posting blogs all the way up to our release, and probably for a while thereafter. We've still got a lot to show.
More sidebars and development blogs to come. This is post #15.
Torque 3D development blogs:
- Post #1 - Kickoff
- Post #2 - Apparatus and Warrior Camp
- Post #3 - Luma's racing kit
- Post #4 - Josh Engebretson and Web Publishing
- Post #5 - Pricing and Licensing
- Post #6 - Pricing and Licensing CONTINUED
- Post #7 - Wetness & Precipitation
- Post #8 - Screeen Space Ambient Occlusion (SSAO)
- Post #9 - Matt Langley and the Torque Launcher
- Post #10 - Chris Robertson and Collada
- Post #11 - Depth of Field
- Post #12 - Advanced Lighting
- Post #13 - Soft Particles
- Post #14 - World Editor
- Post #15 - Pricing and Licensing ANNOUNCED!
- Post #16 - GDC Live Edition
- Post #17 - River & Road Editors
- Post #18 - Beta is UP!
- Post #19 - Light Rays, Undercity, Material Editor
- Post #20 - Mass Market Hardware
- Post #21 - Beta: Part Deux
- Post #22 - Marching Towards Beta 3
- Post #23 - pureLIGHT
- Post #24 - Lighting, Terrain, and Cloth
- Post #25 - Beta 3!
- Post #26 - Coming Soon!
About the author
Since 2007, I've done my best to steer Torque's development and brand toward the best opportunities in games middleware.
#182
now i think he said they will have a demo when this preorder comes out in 2 days but i dont knwo if its right when they relase preorder or not. it will basically just show us whats already done i would think and get some hands on it be for we buy it.
but the release is not till 2 months or even longer he said but try goign to try to get in all done in 2 months and he think they can make it in that time frame.
03/22/2009 (4:20 pm)
the release is not 2 days away edword its more like 2 months away. what they are releasing in 2 days is to preorder the game which is a $200 discount off the price. + the what you payed for TGEA so it will cost $505. the beta testing is for people that preorder the game which is in 1 months time. then release is 1 month after that.now i think he said they will have a demo when this preorder comes out in 2 days but i dont knwo if its right when they relase preorder or not. it will basically just show us whats already done i would think and get some hands on it be for we buy it.
but the release is not till 2 months or even longer he said but try goign to try to get in all done in 2 months and he think they can make it in that time frame.
#183
BUT, since there isnt im in a dilemma :P
I do not have 1000$ or 800$ for a single license (for something we never actually seen installed and running), especially since me and my team all have to get licenses, we are only friends doing this together, but have mad idea's and some of the team has mad skills in Maya and rendermonkey ect ect.
I would like to see more/something about AI, Material editor, All shaders comming (material,screen,ect), using deferred renderer?, Editor (alot more about the editor as that is the heart for the designers), do you have to sit and watch splash screen it editor aswell?, possible to create infinite terrain using stiching and or other ways?, GUI creation and skinning possible?, and much much more.
Well... i need alot more info before even considering buying this engine at the cost it is right now, and im pissed i cannot come to GDC :P...
And i do NOT have TGEA, so.. :( sux to be me..
EDIT : Ps. got to agree, Basic license is unuseable for like 95% of making games.
03/22/2009 (4:26 pm)
During GDC there should be a 3 day (only during GDC) half price (owning TGEA or not) license for Pro 500$, and i would buy it, useable for me or not :PBUT, since there isnt im in a dilemma :P
I do not have 1000$ or 800$ for a single license (for something we never actually seen installed and running), especially since me and my team all have to get licenses, we are only friends doing this together, but have mad idea's and some of the team has mad skills in Maya and rendermonkey ect ect.
I would like to see more/something about AI, Material editor, All shaders comming (material,screen,ect), using deferred renderer?, Editor (alot more about the editor as that is the heart for the designers), do you have to sit and watch splash screen it editor aswell?, possible to create infinite terrain using stiching and or other ways?, GUI creation and skinning possible?, and much much more.
Well... i need alot more info before even considering buying this engine at the cost it is right now, and im pissed i cannot come to GDC :P...
And i do NOT have TGEA, so.. :( sux to be me..
EDIT : Ps. got to agree, Basic license is unuseable for like 95% of making games.
#184
from what i have read seems as though the demo on T3D will have a time limit on it unlike all other engines they have where its unlimited.
the price is very realistic at lest to what you are getting out of it.
i already said what the demo will might be like and i think the basic version is right on target its cheaper then TGEA and you get more stuff with T3D basic so who can complain there. wow it don't come with source but its intended for artiest money not producing a game though you can produce a game with it. you should read this blog theres lots of info they even said that a basic account can share the source of a pro account but this is for teams only. you cant just share it from some random person he has to be part of your team with a pro license.
03/22/2009 (4:27 pm)
Tyler Slabinskifrom what i have read seems as though the demo on T3D will have a time limit on it unlike all other engines they have where its unlimited.
the price is very realistic at lest to what you are getting out of it.
i already said what the demo will might be like and i think the basic version is right on target its cheaper then TGEA and you get more stuff with T3D basic so who can complain there. wow it don't come with source but its intended for artiest money not producing a game though you can produce a game with it. you should read this blog theres lots of info they even said that a basic account can share the source of a pro account but this is for teams only. you cant just share it from some random person he has to be part of your team with a pro license.
#185
03/22/2009 (4:28 pm)
The only thing I don't think is a deal breaker for me is it doesn't come with the source code for $250, I can't afford $800 or even $1000 when the $200 DISCOUNT EXPIRES. I've bought TGE, TGEA, and alot of packs from GG. I would have no way to integrate them with out the source code right. SO I guess it just better to stick with TGEA for me all though it does look like a good deal for the T3D
#186
you own TGEA already so the cost will be $505 not $800 or $1000 this is for preorder only though. after preorder you have to pay $705. preorder ends on release day and preorder don't start till 2 more days. release will be about 2 months from now so you got lots of time be for you have to buy preorder.
03/22/2009 (4:32 pm)
Morrieyou own TGEA already so the cost will be $505 not $800 or $1000 this is for preorder only though. after preorder you have to pay $705. preorder ends on release day and preorder don't start till 2 more days. release will be about 2 months from now so you got lots of time be for you have to buy preorder.
#187
This could just be another stepping stone for Artists wanting to make packs etc when they have to pay $1000 for the engine so they can make sure it looks fine in the engine with the Advanced Lighting.
Or are there other ideas to make sure that Artists can work with this engine?
I feel even $500 is a lot of money - hell there is an economic crisis too. I feel the EA is a bit of a trap, its the cheapest the engine will be. If I wait and miss the boat I'll never see $1000 as been a realistic amount to spend on T3D. But if i just jump on it maybe a total waste. I've already been thinking of changing engine after TGEA was a shambles and is now dead.
03/22/2009 (5:05 pm)
As mentioned above about Artists not been able to check there content in T3D been a problem. We want to make sure content is easy to create for T3D don't we?This could just be another stepping stone for Artists wanting to make packs etc when they have to pay $1000 for the engine so they can make sure it looks fine in the engine with the Advanced Lighting.
Or are there other ideas to make sure that Artists can work with this engine?
I feel even $500 is a lot of money - hell there is an economic crisis too. I feel the EA is a bit of a trap, its the cheapest the engine will be. If I wait and miss the boat I'll never see $1000 as been a realistic amount to spend on T3D. But if i just jump on it maybe a total waste. I've already been thinking of changing engine after TGEA was a shambles and is now dead.
#188
1. As has been mentioned numerous times, if you're an artist on a team with a programmer who owns a Pro license, you can use the binaries compiled from the Pro licensee with your Basic license, and that will include the advanced lighting.
2. The prices for Torque have been unrealistically low for a long time.
3. See #1.
lol, really? You think the price for T3D is high, but if Unreal supported OpenGL you would license it instead?
03/22/2009 (5:05 pm)
@Tyler,1. As has been mentioned numerous times, if you're an artist on a team with a programmer who owns a Pro license, you can use the binaries compiled from the Pro licensee with your Basic license, and that will include the advanced lighting.
2. The prices for Torque have been unrealistically low for a long time.
3. See #1.
Quote:
Overeall, I am very disappointed in how you are managing your pricing. The only reasons I am staying with Torque is because Unreal isn't OpenGL supportive.
lol, really? You think the price for T3D is high, but if Unreal supported OpenGL you would license it instead?
#189
Tyler: I think you really should be comparing price and features to Unity 3d if you want to be realistic. The pricing/feature scheme is much closer than your 6-7 figure large studio engines. Then again if you are buying 100+ seats than perhaps the math changes a bit.
GG: Great work so far guys. I am sure a handful of people are unhappy, but I don't understand why any company goes 2-3 years on a product without new revenue sources. So I salute you for that :-).
03/22/2009 (5:16 pm)
Josh/Brett: Is there any performance metrics out yet or will be forthcoming soon? Curious how that effects FPS compared to TGEA 1.8.1. More efficiency is always a strong selling point :-). Not that I need to be sold, will be there buying it on day 1 along with a few others.Tyler: I think you really should be comparing price and features to Unity 3d if you want to be realistic. The pricing/feature scheme is much closer than your 6-7 figure large studio engines. Then again if you are buying 100+ seats than perhaps the math changes a bit.
GG: Great work so far guys. I am sure a handful of people are unhappy, but I don't understand why any company goes 2-3 years on a product without new revenue sources. So I salute you for that :-).
#190
I am planning on purchasing T3D, but have some specific questions about getting assets into the engine.
1.) When making interiors, can we use existing 3d packages such as 3D Max and straight export to the engine? Or will we still have to use Constructor for the whole process or at least in part of the process like 3D Max -> Constructor -> Engine.
2.) Documentation, I know it has been said the documentation is going to be hit on hard. I guess I'm still concerned that this aspect is still going to be covered right. I'm a programmer so finding my answers with just going through the code I can handle, even though it is time consuming, but my problems are with areas I'm not so great at such as other aspects of the engine. Whether it be artist specific, or general tool use. So can we expect detailed documentation, maybe tutorials too, on every aspect of the engine?
Thanks in advance!
-Brandon
03/22/2009 (5:21 pm)
Congrats to GG at GDC,I am planning on purchasing T3D, but have some specific questions about getting assets into the engine.
1.) When making interiors, can we use existing 3d packages such as 3D Max and straight export to the engine? Or will we still have to use Constructor for the whole process or at least in part of the process like 3D Max -> Constructor -> Engine.
2.) Documentation, I know it has been said the documentation is going to be hit on hard. I guess I'm still concerned that this aspect is still going to be covered right. I'm a programmer so finding my answers with just going through the code I can handle, even though it is time consuming, but my problems are with areas I'm not so great at such as other aspects of the engine. Whether it be artist specific, or general tool use. So can we expect detailed documentation, maybe tutorials too, on every aspect of the engine?
Thanks in advance!
-Brandon
#191
03/22/2009 (5:31 pm)
What would the 'Basic' version be used for? I can't see any practical use for it yet. It almost seems like the basic version should be free, just to get people hooked on T3D. 
#192
03/22/2009 (6:10 pm)
Marcus, have you read any of the comments? Read 3 posts up.
#193
03/22/2009 (6:11 pm)
I just have one question. Any plans to change the current ugly terrians?
#194
03/22/2009 (6:20 pm)
ugly terrains lol they don't look that way to me in TGEA. but they did say some place else i don't think it was here that you will be able to have 256 i think different textures on each mega terrain so maybe thats what your meaning ugly because of the limit of 8 textures. not the limit is around 256 textures. :P though i would not put that many different textures on 1 terrain as that should kill your performance. 
#195
Take Apple for instance with the new MacBooks. The last generation was deducted to a price of $999, while the newer ones kept the prices of $1200 and $1600. The same prices as the older ones when they were new.
Another example is video games. The newer video games this year for Wii are $50 at retail. While the old ones from last year are $30-$40. Last year, the games were kept at $50
To tell you the truth, I think that there should be no discount, and that T3D should be the same price as the older version was (TGEA 1.8.1).
03/22/2009 (6:40 pm)
All the posts so far still do not change my opinion on the matter of this. I know T3D is low compared to many other engines, yet to me it seems they are getting higher and higher, and the only choice would be to go through with a different engine. Most other software companies do not change their price, but rather lower the price of old software and keep normal prices of newer software.Take Apple for instance with the new MacBooks. The last generation was deducted to a price of $999, while the newer ones kept the prices of $1200 and $1600. The same prices as the older ones when they were new.
Another example is video games. The newer video games this year for Wii are $50 at retail. While the old ones from last year are $30-$40. Last year, the games were kept at $50
To tell you the truth, I think that there should be no discount, and that T3D should be the same price as the older version was (TGEA 1.8.1).
#196
this is a engine engines will always be researched and if you want a better engine you have to keep paying more money because they have to keep researching and paying those people to add that new tec in. GG is moving forward and they need to start charging people so they can keep moving forward fast gg has been taking money out of there pocket for all these updates but all updates are small are they not thats because they got no money. now T3D will keep costing money but we will get bigger updates with much better stuff just like this first release of T3D they have don't many many things and thats because they are paying 30 people instead of 5. in order to keep 30 payed people they need money to pay those people and in the longer run we will have better updates and a better engine over all.
if you don't like the price change then don't buy it its as easy as that theres still TGE and TGEA. theres also other engines to pick from but no other engine where they don't put higher prices up they will never get any place they will but super slowly till its way out dated and they just stop selling the engine as its not worth keeping anymore as no one will want it. GG wants to say up to date and have there engine the best indie engine out there for the money that we spend. it may never reach to the point of the 1mill dollar engines but at lest it will stay close behind them from now on.
you don't have to buy GG product theres many to pick from just go pick one and buy it. i will stay with GG and have my engine updated for a small price like this first release as i want something i can work with for years to come not become outdated after years have gone by. i think i said it as best as i could on this post and i am 100% right with everything i have just said.
03/22/2009 (7:22 pm)
you want to know why that is tyler its because they want to make there money back off research costs so the price is much higher at the start and gets cheaper. the new product costs the same as the old because theres really no difference in materials they just need to get there research cost payed back.this is a engine engines will always be researched and if you want a better engine you have to keep paying more money because they have to keep researching and paying those people to add that new tec in. GG is moving forward and they need to start charging people so they can keep moving forward fast gg has been taking money out of there pocket for all these updates but all updates are small are they not thats because they got no money. now T3D will keep costing money but we will get bigger updates with much better stuff just like this first release of T3D they have don't many many things and thats because they are paying 30 people instead of 5. in order to keep 30 payed people they need money to pay those people and in the longer run we will have better updates and a better engine over all.
if you don't like the price change then don't buy it its as easy as that theres still TGE and TGEA. theres also other engines to pick from but no other engine where they don't put higher prices up they will never get any place they will but super slowly till its way out dated and they just stop selling the engine as its not worth keeping anymore as no one will want it. GG wants to say up to date and have there engine the best indie engine out there for the money that we spend. it may never reach to the point of the 1mill dollar engines but at lest it will stay close behind them from now on.
you don't have to buy GG product theres many to pick from just go pick one and buy it. i will stay with GG and have my engine updated for a small price like this first release as i want something i can work with for years to come not become outdated after years have gone by. i think i said it as best as i could on this post and i am 100% right with everything i have just said.
#197
03/22/2009 (7:45 pm)
I was referring to packs like the RTS kit, FX pack, AFX pack, rag doll, ex.all of these require coding and compiling. You can always change code or reconfigure it, but not if you don't have the source code. $505 is still out of my budget. 
#198
Ugly is the use of the same detail map across all textures. Ugly is the low-res look of the terrain when viewed up close. I hope they've done some good work with the terrain, like making it so we can have multiple detail maps, but regardless I'll be paying my $505.
03/22/2009 (8:08 pm)
Quote:
ugly terrains lol they don't look that way to me in TGEA. but they did say some place else i don't think it was here that you will be able to have 256 i think different textures on each mega terrain so maybe thats what your meaning ugly because of the limit of 8 textures.
Ugly is the use of the same detail map across all textures. Ugly is the low-res look of the terrain when viewed up close. I hope they've done some good work with the terrain, like making it so we can have multiple detail maps, but regardless I'll be paying my $505.
#199
03/22/2009 (8:16 pm)
Its worth the price I would just need more time than two months to come up with the $505. It would be nice they could extend the offer, because I definitely won't be able to afford $705. I'm gonna do my best, but I doubt it.
#200
you can always scale down the terrain to make the close up textures look allot better i going to do that my self just to make them look better. :P
now in the new terrain i have no clue.
woot this is post 200 what a very active topic here and thats just for 2 days.
03/22/2009 (8:32 pm)
Joe Meltonyou can always scale down the terrain to make the close up textures look allot better i going to do that my self just to make them look better. :P
now in the new terrain i have no clue.
woot this is post 200 what a very active topic here and thats just for 2 days.
Torque Owner Tyler Slabinski
2. I think the prices are very... Unrealistic... Especially since most companies just lower the price of their old software and keep the prices the same for new software. The prices 100% do not fit the GG motto.
3. No source code for the basic version? It sounds to me that it is pointless to get the basic version... Might as well get the T3D demo...
Overeall, I am very disappointed in how you are managing your pricing. The only reasons I am staying with Torque is because Unreal isn't OpenGL supportive.