The art of doing something (1)
by Apparatus · 03/20/2009 (12:25 am) · 25 comments
A while ago someone approached me with a project that require realtime rendering and interaction with 3d models. Obviously, he needed a game engine even though the project was not an actual game and so we started talking about it. After a couple of meetings a few things became clear: the market offers enough alternatives for such a project, the problem was how to actually kick start the development considering that many of the team members have different or even opposite ideas about the software choice.
I noticed that the votes were never considering the project itself or the goal, but the personal perspective. Almost nobody was willing to learn a new tool and, what frightened me, this stance was quite solid. Right from the start the project was going to use dependencies other than those appropriate for its successful development.
I can't really understand why so many people accept 3ds Max over something a lot cheaper (sometimes free) and with a lot more advanced features. Its vintage UV editor would be laughable if the software would've had a 5$ tag; People simply refuse to give up what they know and learn something new. And that's just one example.
We had some interesting talks about game engines as well, since there are quite a few choices. Torque was one of the obvious choices because 3 members of the team have prior development knowledge with TGE and TGEA. Deployment for web is a must for the project and that switched the option, for the time being, towards Unity3d which just released a Windows version.
What came on top was that the rendering capabilities of all engines were just fine for the project, out of the box or with little development. Right now we have some talks about the interactivity issues and we are going through each option again to see which engine gives more flexibility.
My lesson here, though these things were in my face all the time, is that the tools, regardless their difficulty bar, can do the job. It's the people who use the tools that make the difference. Both users and developers. For the moment the chatter between these two camps seem week, because everybody's paying more attention to the bling and nobody's really willing to make a change for the better. It's a wild world out there but this fatal flaw (I am not socialist or whatever) of the capital society will blow in its face one day. Where is the pride in doing something right?
(to be continued)
I noticed that the votes were never considering the project itself or the goal, but the personal perspective. Almost nobody was willing to learn a new tool and, what frightened me, this stance was quite solid. Right from the start the project was going to use dependencies other than those appropriate for its successful development.
I can't really understand why so many people accept 3ds Max over something a lot cheaper (sometimes free) and with a lot more advanced features. Its vintage UV editor would be laughable if the software would've had a 5$ tag; People simply refuse to give up what they know and learn something new. And that's just one example.
We had some interesting talks about game engines as well, since there are quite a few choices. Torque was one of the obvious choices because 3 members of the team have prior development knowledge with TGE and TGEA. Deployment for web is a must for the project and that switched the option, for the time being, towards Unity3d which just released a Windows version.
What came on top was that the rendering capabilities of all engines were just fine for the project, out of the box or with little development. Right now we have some talks about the interactivity issues and we are going through each option again to see which engine gives more flexibility.
My lesson here, though these things were in my face all the time, is that the tools, regardless their difficulty bar, can do the job. It's the people who use the tools that make the difference. Both users and developers. For the moment the chatter between these two camps seem week, because everybody's paying more attention to the bling and nobody's really willing to make a change for the better. It's a wild world out there but this fatal flaw (I am not socialist or whatever) of the capital society will blow in its face one day. Where is the pride in doing something right?
(to be continued)
About the author
Tarakibu Studio
#2
Torque characters can be exported from Maya and 3ds Max and soon there is going to be a Softimage exporter as well.
03/20/2009 (1:24 am)
I can't recommend anything really. It is up to you to go through the options and decide what's best and balanced; for you, and as well for your project.Torque characters can be exported from Maya and 3ds Max and soon there is going to be a Softimage exporter as well.
#3
Lightwave, Modo some others are more in the price point I'd be interested in.
03/20/2009 (4:45 am)
Yea, that's exactly my worry. It does help with the move to COLLADA but still unsure. 3dsmax, Maya and Softimage are a bit out of touch for me considering I program and don't do art all the time but still need a 3d package.Lightwave, Modo some others are more in the price point I'd be interested in.
#4
- Why mock 3ds users ? Why mock 3dsMax for it's UV editor without giving specific examples ? Give some examples plz...instead of complaining about capitalism and how you dislike that people prefer a program you obviously don't like.
If you just want to complain..go ahead. I won't bother you...but stop trashing programs that can't defend themselves from VERY obscure complaints.
03/20/2009 (5:05 am)
I don't get half of what you're talking about...seems like a rhetorical rant.- Why mock 3ds users ? Why mock 3dsMax for it's UV editor without giving specific examples ? Give some examples plz...instead of complaining about capitalism and how you dislike that people prefer a program you obviously don't like.
If you just want to complain..go ahead. I won't bother you...but stop trashing programs that can't defend themselves from VERY obscure complaints.
#5
eb: I can't stop wondering how this funboy thing still goes on with max (or others just as fine) when indeed, it's uv editor is no more advanced than Milkshape, and it's plain arrogant to ask this kind of money for it when a core feature is so poorly developed.
I don't care what you think of this software of others: this is my blog and I appreciate if you would consider it as such: an expressed personal opinion.
I fail to see any complaining anywhere in my post, and I simply don't care how you come up with "VERY obscure complaints". It just proves my point, that people are hardly open minded to different opinions or choices.
I am a 3d user myself so I am not mocking. Funny enough, I started 3d modeling with 3dsmax well over 10 years ago. I am however mocking it incidentally (it's one of the examples really, there are plenty) but if my English failed to illuminate you, I apologize.
And indeed, it would be appreciated if you would read the whole thing before posting from an obvious superior stance. The final paragraph clearly states one of the points I am trying to make here and that is tools are important, very important, but the way people choose to use / develop them makes the whole difference.
And finally, it's nice to stand for capitalism and defend it but read the news, mate. I couldn't care less about any social order, because I just don't.
03/20/2009 (6:22 am)
Matt: Lightwave has an exporter and works just fine. Blender is absolutely free, takes a while to get to know it but it's proven to work and has a good exporter.eb: I can't stop wondering how this funboy thing still goes on with max (or others just as fine) when indeed, it's uv editor is no more advanced than Milkshape, and it's plain arrogant to ask this kind of money for it when a core feature is so poorly developed.
I don't care what you think of this software of others: this is my blog and I appreciate if you would consider it as such: an expressed personal opinion.
I fail to see any complaining anywhere in my post, and I simply don't care how you come up with "VERY obscure complaints". It just proves my point, that people are hardly open minded to different opinions or choices.
I am a 3d user myself so I am not mocking. Funny enough, I started 3d modeling with 3dsmax well over 10 years ago. I am however mocking it incidentally (it's one of the examples really, there are plenty) but if my English failed to illuminate you, I apologize.
And indeed, it would be appreciated if you would read the whole thing before posting from an obvious superior stance. The final paragraph clearly states one of the points I am trying to make here and that is tools are important, very important, but the way people choose to use / develop them makes the whole difference.
And finally, it's nice to stand for capitalism and defend it but read the news, mate. I couldn't care less about any social order, because I just don't.
#6
I got exactly what you intended out of it - most people will resist change - period.
It's one of the barriers any team/leader will have to overcome if a project is to succeed.
03/20/2009 (6:33 am)
Well said, Apparatus.I got exactly what you intended out of it - most people will resist change - period.
It's one of the barriers any team/leader will have to overcome if a project is to succeed.
#7
Anyways, I think your comment on max's uv editor was made in haste and I forgive you. ..no one in this world that understood Max's UV editor would make such an accusation. Especially when there are so many ways to script your own changes and controls.
Enjoy the day!
03/20/2009 (7:22 am)
heh..I guess you take me out of context just as much as I did of you.Anyways, I think your comment on max's uv editor was made in haste and I forgive you. ..no one in this world that understood Max's UV editor would make such an accusation. Especially when there are so many ways to script your own changes and controls.
Enjoy the day!
#8
The Softimage exporter will work with the free mod tool as well.
the softimage Exporter should be out any day I talked to Matt yesturday and he was trying to finish up the utility the thing is feature complete. I sent him the Final x64 build for 7.x on friday of last week. "or maybe it was monday of this week?... hmm days are running together again."
Max is usually considered the app of choice by many game houses but I have to say you will have a hard time finding an application that has all of the useful tools for game art pipelines that Softimage does. I have used 3Ds max, I have used Houdini, I used Maya for a little over 10 years. I have used Softimage for about 6 months now. I have to say this is the application experience that I have been searching for all of this time.
03/20/2009 (7:45 am)
Quote:Yea, that's exactly my worry. It does help with the move to COLLADA but still unsure. 3dsmax, Maya and Softimage are a bit out of touch for me considering I program and don't do art all the time but still need a 3d package.
The Softimage exporter will work with the free mod tool as well.
the softimage Exporter should be out any day I talked to Matt yesturday and he was trying to finish up the utility the thing is feature complete. I sent him the Final x64 build for 7.x on friday of last week. "or maybe it was monday of this week?... hmm days are running together again."
Max is usually considered the app of choice by many game houses but I have to say you will have a hard time finding an application that has all of the useful tools for game art pipelines that Softimage does. I have used 3Ds max, I have used Houdini, I used Maya for a little over 10 years. I have used Softimage for about 6 months now. I have to say this is the application experience that I have been searching for all of this time.
#9
Are you using the right tools? Is this game engine correct for your game design? Are these game design elements correct? Is there something better out there. Or better yet... is there something more creative within you?
A quote of a quote because Ethec wrote it very well in an article nearly two years ago:
Every single milestone for the projects I'm currently working on, I ask myself:
What decisions did I not consciously make?
What questions did I take for granted?
Did I use a default answer that is not necessarily the right answer?
Just because a particular question has always been answered the same way every single time in the past does not mean that the answer is still the same today.
Explore new tools, learn new languages, experiment with other game engines, innovate new game design elements.
As Indies, what do we have to lose?
Who knows? You might find something significantly better than what you're using today.
Are you going to follow the crowd and make the next mundane cookie cutter game, or are you going blaze your own path and create the next industry shocking genre?
Slaughter those Sacred Cows!
03/20/2009 (8:14 am)
When you start a new game development project, there are questions you should always ask yourself. In fact, even if you're not starting a new project, long running projects and especially hobby projects, you should ask yourself these questions periodically... don't get stuck in the rut of a mindless drone.Are you using the right tools? Is this game engine correct for your game design? Are these game design elements correct? Is there something better out there. Or better yet... is there something more creative within you?
A quote of a quote because Ethec wrote it very well in an article nearly two years ago:
Quote:To Bartle, the keys to creativity are the variety of design tools available (“There’s too much similarity if we all use the same tools”) and the willingness of the developer to stray from the out-of-the-box middleware features (“The more you do yourself, the more different your game will be, and the fewer design constraints you’ll have.”).
Every single milestone for the projects I'm currently working on, I ask myself:
What decisions did I not consciously make?
What questions did I take for granted?
Did I use a default answer that is not necessarily the right answer?
Just because a particular question has always been answered the same way every single time in the past does not mean that the answer is still the same today.
Explore new tools, learn new languages, experiment with other game engines, innovate new game design elements.
As Indies, what do we have to lose?
Who knows? You might find something significantly better than what you're using today.
Are you going to follow the crowd and make the next mundane cookie cutter game, or are you going blaze your own path and create the next industry shocking genre?
Slaughter those Sacred Cows!
#10
"Autodesk anticipates that 3ds Max 2009 and 3ds Max Design 2009 will be available in English during spring 2008. The Autodesk suggested retail price for 3ds Max 2009 or 3ds Max Design 2009 software is US$3,495*. The Autodesk suggested retail price to upgrade from 3ds Max 2008 to either 3ds Max 2009 or 3ds Max Design 2009 is US$895*."
I suppose max is fine for some people, but is there a 'student' or 'poor guy' version? I find it hard to believe that indie devs who purchase a $100-$300 engine solution are purchasing a modeling program that is 10x the cost of the engine they use? I am not the licensing police, but REALLY? You spent over $3000 on a modeling tool? <---- Project funded by BitTorrent.
I personally think some of the low cost solutions are great and sometimes superior...
Milkshape3D ($30) is still our choice for exporting shapes to Torque. It has its limitations, but when used with Fragmotion ($35), (for keyframe editing and lots of other tools) MS3D becomes much more useful, basically as an import/export package. Blender seems to be a great choice for many peeps, too.
Nothing I have played with beats UU3D ($50) for UV mapping.
Zbrush 3 ($595) is the most expensive tool we at BAG have licensed, simply because its so awesome and forward thinking. Yes we use it for production, and I hope to do more with it in the future.
Have a great day!
Jondo
03/20/2009 (8:14 am)
E-pinions are like A-holes. We all have them, and love to post about them on the internet. I am no different."Autodesk anticipates that 3ds Max 2009 and 3ds Max Design 2009 will be available in English during spring 2008. The Autodesk suggested retail price for 3ds Max 2009 or 3ds Max Design 2009 software is US$3,495*. The Autodesk suggested retail price to upgrade from 3ds Max 2008 to either 3ds Max 2009 or 3ds Max Design 2009 is US$895*."
I suppose max is fine for some people, but is there a 'student' or 'poor guy' version? I find it hard to believe that indie devs who purchase a $100-$300 engine solution are purchasing a modeling program that is 10x the cost of the engine they use? I am not the licensing police, but REALLY? You spent over $3000 on a modeling tool? <---- Project funded by BitTorrent.
I personally think some of the low cost solutions are great and sometimes superior...
Milkshape3D ($30) is still our choice for exporting shapes to Torque. It has its limitations, but when used with Fragmotion ($35), (for keyframe editing and lots of other tools) MS3D becomes much more useful, basically as an import/export package. Blender seems to be a great choice for many peeps, too.
Nothing I have played with beats UU3D ($50) for UV mapping.
Zbrush 3 ($595) is the most expensive tool we at BAG have licensed, simply because its so awesome and forward thinking. Yes we use it for production, and I hope to do more with it in the future.
Have a great day!
Jondo
#11
Actually I read the same thing as Eb did. Your message of "use the best tools that you can afford and are most comfortable with using" was lost in a cheap shot comment, as opposed to saying what I think you intended to say which was "Even the most popular 3D applications on the market have their own se tof strengths and weaknesses in various areas".
Personally if I have a beef against a piece of software or company I save that for my personal blog, that way it doesn't get carried over to or associated with this community in any way shape or form unless I intend it to (most of the more visible members in the GG community have done this btw, so don't think that I am singling you out).
03/20/2009 (8:48 am)
@ApparatusActually I read the same thing as Eb did. Your message of "use the best tools that you can afford and are most comfortable with using" was lost in a cheap shot comment, as opposed to saying what I think you intended to say which was "Even the most popular 3D applications on the market have their own se tof strengths and weaknesses in various areas".
Personally if I have a beef against a piece of software or company I save that for my personal blog, that way it doesn't get carried over to or associated with this community in any way shape or form unless I intend it to (most of the more visible members in the GG community have done this btw, so don't think that I am singling you out).
#12
03/20/2009 (8:53 am)
Softimage "Essentials" Runs like $2K I think. 
#13
I'm hesitant to join the argument criticizing or defending 3DS Max, but the truth is that a subscription service with Autodesk gives an artist a new version of Max every year for $900 USD. And while I agree with App that the UV tools in Max leave something to be desired, the free Roadkill UV Tool really brings it up to speed. But yes, for the initial $3500 price tag, tools like this should come stock in 3DS Max. Also, when I switched my studio to Max, there was far more gamedev-related middleware for that software, far more resources for scripts and plugins, and I just genuinely liked the workflow in it better than other programs. Until I have a reason to change, I'm pretty pleased with where I am.
03/20/2009 (8:59 am)
I would gladly learn a new tool if it was right for the project, and actually I do it quite frequently. But consider this... learning a new tool means an added learning curve. That means extra time, which usually means added expense, and can also mean compromises in quality. Every team has to decide where to make the compromises.I'm hesitant to join the argument criticizing or defending 3DS Max, but the truth is that a subscription service with Autodesk gives an artist a new version of Max every year for $900 USD. And while I agree with App that the UV tools in Max leave something to be desired, the free Roadkill UV Tool really brings it up to speed. But yes, for the initial $3500 price tag, tools like this should come stock in 3DS Max. Also, when I switched my studio to Max, there was far more gamedev-related middleware for that software, far more resources for scripts and plugins, and I just genuinely liked the workflow in it better than other programs. Until I have a reason to change, I'm pretty pleased with where I am.
#14
Adaptability...
03/20/2009 (9:21 am)
Heh, I get this, I really do, contrary opinions and all... But yeah, in the end, it's the people doing the job who're willing to make a change and able to look past convention who garner more respect from me. Adaptability...
#15
i liked ZBrush but as its not really intended for makeing 3d objects just editing high poly 3d objects i might of gotten that as well i still like it though. like Apparatus said you should try out other programs be for you buy something i used many programs but after i seen Softimage XSI i did not care what the price tag was i just went right in. theres also a free version people of Softimage XSI so stop bringing Softimage XSI as it cost to much when you can get a version for free.
i just basically telling you guys to do your homework and pick whats right for you even if you have been using a program for many many years. you should still explore as years have gone by and you just might find a better program.
03/20/2009 (9:25 am)
like many here i have tried many of the top programs 3dsmax, Maya, ZBrush, Lightwave, and many others. i used 3dsmax years ago i loved it and almost payed for it but i still could not find out how to texture back then maybe they did not even have one who knows so i never got it. after i found Softimage XSI i will never turn to another 3d program again i tested it for 1 week and already decided to buy it as it was the easiest to use and come with anything you ever need in a 3d program.i liked ZBrush but as its not really intended for makeing 3d objects just editing high poly 3d objects i might of gotten that as well i still like it though. like Apparatus said you should try out other programs be for you buy something i used many programs but after i seen Softimage XSI i did not care what the price tag was i just went right in. theres also a free version people of Softimage XSI so stop bringing Softimage XSI as it cost to much when you can get a version for free.
i just basically telling you guys to do your homework and pick whats right for you even if you have been using a program for many many years. you should still explore as years have gone by and you just might find a better program.
#16
Trying to create the same effect, as say, using multiple shape lofting with animatable deformations in a tool like Milkshape would cost you enough time=money to pay for a tool like Max in one project, even though technically given enough time you could accomplish the exact same thing in Milkshape..
I've found that it's best to let people use the tools that they're comfortable with. In the end a modeling tool outputs triangles, so it's often cheaper just to provide a way to have them export to a common format than trying to get everybody using the same tool.
03/20/2009 (11:25 am)
There are a *lot* of nice tools in high-end apps like Max and Maya, not just UV editors. Sure, in the end you can accomplish the same things with any modeling tool, but time is money, and an expensive tool that helps you finish the job faster usually pays for itself many times over. Learning a new tool also costs time = costs money.Trying to create the same effect, as say, using multiple shape lofting with animatable deformations in a tool like Milkshape would cost you enough time=money to pay for a tool like Max in one project, even though technically given enough time you could accomplish the exact same thing in Milkshape..
I've found that it's best to let people use the tools that they're comfortable with. In the end a modeling tool outputs triangles, so it's often cheaper just to provide a way to have them export to a common format than trying to get everybody using the same tool.
#17
On one hand, it's a real bitch to learn a new package. Why would I want to spend that time when I can pilot this one just fine. I order the same dish practically every time I go into my favorite restaurant. Why try something new when I loves what I got?
On the other hand, we will never know the 'greater greatness' if we don't expand our horizons and try something new. I've been trapped in this pattern, but I've also been trapped and kicked in the jimmy by attempting to venture into unfamiliar territory. Double edged blade.
If you have a strong team, a lot of the tool decisions won't matter if the tool decisions are based on all of the factors (requirements, timeline, pipeline, team experience). Personal preference is a factor, but there's more to it than that.
On the Max discussion... I've never had serious complaints about the UV editor. I love Max, it's pretty great at doing pretty much whatever I'd want to do in an uber-capable tool.
However, I recommend against Max for folks that don't need the bells and whistles or are newcomers. I'm also wary of stringent activation processes and license recovery mazes.
Task oriented tools are where it's at in my opinion if the workflow can support a separate toolset.
For example, for mesh building I can't help but bring up Silo3D from nevercenter. For edge / poly modeling it's candy for me. For comfort, speed, and some of the functions available in Nevercenter's product I actually prefer modeling in Silo to Max. And for $150 bucks...
If we're not talking about games, I've toyed with SketchUp (Gasp... Scoff...) quite a bit. I can't get behind it for efficient mesh output, but man I can do some nice things fast as hell (other forms would be painful as hell). It's a task focused toolset that is good for some things and some applications. Good for architecture and mechanical forms that are going to be used for still output - I dig the display / render style as well.
I'm an oddity, but I like build up my base textures (and some detail elements) in Fireworks. Different strokes for different folks.
03/20/2009 (2:23 pm)
I agree and disagree. On one hand, it's a real bitch to learn a new package. Why would I want to spend that time when I can pilot this one just fine. I order the same dish practically every time I go into my favorite restaurant. Why try something new when I loves what I got?
On the other hand, we will never know the 'greater greatness' if we don't expand our horizons and try something new. I've been trapped in this pattern, but I've also been trapped and kicked in the jimmy by attempting to venture into unfamiliar territory. Double edged blade.
If you have a strong team, a lot of the tool decisions won't matter if the tool decisions are based on all of the factors (requirements, timeline, pipeline, team experience). Personal preference is a factor, but there's more to it than that.
On the Max discussion... I've never had serious complaints about the UV editor. I love Max, it's pretty great at doing pretty much whatever I'd want to do in an uber-capable tool.
However, I recommend against Max for folks that don't need the bells and whistles or are newcomers. I'm also wary of stringent activation processes and license recovery mazes.
Task oriented tools are where it's at in my opinion if the workflow can support a separate toolset.
For example, for mesh building I can't help but bring up Silo3D from nevercenter. For edge / poly modeling it's candy for me. For comfort, speed, and some of the functions available in Nevercenter's product I actually prefer modeling in Silo to Max. And for $150 bucks...
If we're not talking about games, I've toyed with SketchUp (Gasp... Scoff...) quite a bit. I can't get behind it for efficient mesh output, but man I can do some nice things fast as hell (other forms would be painful as hell). It's a task focused toolset that is good for some things and some applications. Good for architecture and mechanical forms that are going to be used for still output - I dig the display / render style as well.
I'm an oddity, but I like build up my base textures (and some detail elements) in Fireworks. Different strokes for different folks.
#18
Actually I have seen a few posts recently in other forums on the same topic, I use Houdini because I find it a very effective alternative to 3dMax or Maya and a lot cheaper. One statement was that it was better to learn with on an Industry Standard Tool. What? (From not the other forums, not from what Apparatus said). I agree good to know how to use Max or Maya, but in reality I have worked for over 25 years in mechanical design and there is no real industry standard tool (Catia,Wildfire,Unigraphics, Autocad). It boils down to what tool is best for the project and the team. The main thing is you know the basic - how to model. The awkwardness of the tool can be overcome such as with Blender. I am still learning Houdini but there are people I work with in gaming that use Max and that is fine, they can create work in Max and export to me. It generally works fine except for animations. Also, it seems most problems are attributed to quirky things in Max that have to be corrected before export.
@Jondo,
If you don't mind emailing me on how you are using Zbrush I would be interested. I was considering it the other day but not sure it is exactly what I need.
EDIT: To make a small clarification, that appeared to be addressed at Apparatus when it wasn't.
03/20/2009 (4:03 pm)
@Apparatus ,Actually I have seen a few posts recently in other forums on the same topic, I use Houdini because I find it a very effective alternative to 3dMax or Maya and a lot cheaper. One statement was that it was better to learn with on an Industry Standard Tool. What? (From not the other forums, not from what Apparatus said). I agree good to know how to use Max or Maya, but in reality I have worked for over 25 years in mechanical design and there is no real industry standard tool (Catia,Wildfire,Unigraphics, Autocad). It boils down to what tool is best for the project and the team. The main thing is you know the basic - how to model. The awkwardness of the tool can be overcome such as with Blender. I am still learning Houdini but there are people I work with in gaming that use Max and that is fine, they can create work in Max and export to me. It generally works fine except for animations. Also, it seems most problems are attributed to quirky things in Max that have to be corrected before export.
@Jondo,
If you don't mind emailing me on how you are using Zbrush I would be interested. I was considering it the other day but not sure it is exactly what I need.
EDIT: To make a small clarification, that appeared to be addressed at Apparatus when it wasn't.
#19
I missed this before.
I find it hard to believe that indie devs who purchase a $100-$300 engine solution are purchasing a modeling program that is 10x the cost of the engine they use? I am not the licensing police, but REALLY? You spent over $3000 on a modeling tool? <---- Project funded by BitTorrent.
I hear this a lot here, but why is that hard to believe?
There is not really a game engine in the price range of Max or Maya. You basically jump from the $300-1000 range, to the $150,000 - $1,200,000 range. There are plenty of people using indie game engines that aren't poor, but don't have hundreds of thousands of dollars to spend on a game engine either. If they did, they'd most likely be required to have the commercial license which is a bit closer to the range of those tools.
Of course there are plenty of people using pirated versions of Max and Maya. There are also plenty of people using pirated versions of the cheaper alternatives. But don't be so quick to jump to conclusions. A lot of people also buy high quality tools because their tools are their livelihood. I know a few mechanics, for instance, who have tool kits that are worth a year's salary. That doesn't mean they're breaking into the Snap-On truck in the middle of the night, it means they're willing to put out money to make their life easier instead of breaking their knuckles using a $5 wrench from Wal-Mart.
03/20/2009 (5:29 pm)
@Jondo, I missed this before.
I find it hard to believe that indie devs who purchase a $100-$300 engine solution are purchasing a modeling program that is 10x the cost of the engine they use? I am not the licensing police, but REALLY? You spent over $3000 on a modeling tool? <---- Project funded by BitTorrent.
I hear this a lot here, but why is that hard to believe?
There is not really a game engine in the price range of Max or Maya. You basically jump from the $300-1000 range, to the $150,000 - $1,200,000 range. There are plenty of people using indie game engines that aren't poor, but don't have hundreds of thousands of dollars to spend on a game engine either. If they did, they'd most likely be required to have the commercial license which is a bit closer to the range of those tools.
Of course there are plenty of people using pirated versions of Max and Maya. There are also plenty of people using pirated versions of the cheaper alternatives. But don't be so quick to jump to conclusions. A lot of people also buy high quality tools because their tools are their livelihood. I know a few mechanics, for instance, who have tool kits that are worth a year's salary. That doesn't mean they're breaking into the Snap-On truck in the middle of the night, it means they're willing to put out money to make their life easier instead of breaking their knuckles using a $5 wrench from Wal-Mart.
#20
I do feel bad for GG because Jondo's odd statement was basically saying that TGEA is not worth anyone's time if that person can afford more expensive items. Which is no where near true, TGEA is a *great* middleware for the genres it can support.
This thread just gives me a bad taste in my mouth.
Take it easy.
P.S. On the note of Road-kill...here is a useful page:
www.scriptspot.com/3ds-max/uv-toolbox-for-the-texture-artist-set-of-uv-texture-m...
Edit: I must have been half alseep...I called Jondo, Josef. Sorry 'bout that.
03/20/2009 (7:04 pm)
Nice post Gerald.I do feel bad for GG because Jondo's odd statement was basically saying that TGEA is not worth anyone's time if that person can afford more expensive items. Which is no where near true, TGEA is a *great* middleware for the genres it can support.
This thread just gives me a bad taste in my mouth.
Take it easy.
P.S. On the note of Road-kill...here is a useful page:
www.scriptspot.com/3ds-max/uv-toolbox-for-the-texture-artist-set-of-uv-texture-m...
Edit: I must have been half alseep...I called Jondo, Josef. Sorry 'bout that.
Torque 3D Owner Matt Huston
Atomic Banzai Games
Out of curiosity, what do you recommend. I always worry that another modeler might not export so well or be able to create advanced models like characters or vehicles quite as well since Torque integrates quite easily with character studio bipeds.