3D Action Adventure Kit - Now Available

#81 Brandon calm down lol. you said you'd try and break a contract.. I found that somewhat funny. I will not get into the legalities of the things you put forth in either of your threads mainly because it's irrelevant; this is not my pack and my proposal is just that.. a proposal that holds no standing with anyone. Leave the issue be. You don't like my proposal and that's fine. Life goes on.

My apologies again Lorne.. if I knew my suggestion would have started such debate, I wouldnt have made it in the first place.

#82 This is a bit of a dead horse, yeah ?

Brandon..you should read your own posts before submitting them..

Quote:"i am a trust worthy person so i don't mind saying what i would do to by pass what license your saying should be put into affect."

Perhaps you were drunk or something...because that is just a travesty to English, in many ways. :P - I don't mean this to be rude/mean. I am having a difficult time understanding how someone is trustworthy while they're bypassing licensing. Those terms don't even belong in a scenario together IMO.

#83 Yea, I have this thread marked looking for updates, but finding a lot of this discussion really not helpful at all. Lorne has made a very honest attempt to reach out to the community and I think they deserve a little better.

@Lorne

For me I went back to your site and missed the small link at the top for the tutorials. Its obvious you put some time, thought and effort into your tutorials and they are off very high quality. Perhaps that is what everyone is missing is a glimpse of what is actually inside the kit. If you put as much effort into the kit as the tutorial, then perhaps the price deserves a second look.

In case anyone has missed them go to the link below. FYI...I would make that link blinking on your site:)

http://www.ubiqvisuals.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=63

For me I am still interested, possibly just an issue with the commercial lic part, but if/when I decide to incorporate I will contact them in private.

#84 eb i have never been drink ever in mater of fact the only thing i have ever had is wine and it was just at a wedding. i am trust worthy as how many people do you know that would say what i said i cant get into trouble for saying things i have not done so i don't mind saying it.

i would contact my lawyer be for i would go that far anyway to find a legal way to bypass that license.

i hope this is the last post i have to put here trying to get out of this blog and let others post in it for other ways of how it should be priced. we should get back on topic instead of fighting over andrew's license changed statement.

#85 Brandon, I'm not trying to go after you, really. It just irks me when somebody who doesn't pay anything has the gall to tell others why they should pay for what, when, and how. Funny how that's going to mirror current politics more and more. ;)

Jeff, I know that Lorne asked for ideas on pricing. My response was just that he should let the market sort it out. The price will drop or he'll pull the pack. You'll see.

#86 Joe: Yeah, I know, but if we can make it so they don't suffer a potential deadspace of sales and damaged interest, it'd be best.

#87 I hope this will be some decent constructive criticism and support!

First off as people had said, were paying for a character code, camera code, and a whole lot of junk that we really can't use.
Second As much as anyone with Maya may like the character, what about us 3DS Max guys who put out good money to get the kit and find that there are no max files, at least for me I learn through example and I darn well don't see an example file that I can start from or learn from not even a .3ds file!.
Third 500$ is a bit of a wallet muncher, but 5K on a per license per release bases, that to me is near murder upon my account, if I'm going to pay 5k on a per release basis, then I am expecting a whole lot more, for 5K I'm expecting an integrated level building system added to torque much like Unreal, or for 5K I'm expecting an super updated GUI + HUD, or extra shaders like fur, parallax mapping etc etc etc, and the kitchen sink! If I pay 5K For most of today's professional 3D tools and Art packages, then I expect that same amount of work to be put into this! Maya, Max,the Adobe sweet, they've been in production for many years growing in use and refining, your few months work though nice hardly pails in comparison to the work Discreet/Autodesk/Adobe has put into coding for there product. The price tag you placed, this is a "Boot to the head!" to us indies!

I've gone through there documentation and although it is pretty good, it is quite misleading in many areas.
Examples are:

1. You have a tutorial for Character Animation: Upon reading it I find it to merely be a tutorial on how to export a character with Maya.
.a) You don't actually show us how to animate the character, rather you show us how to use your functions that you've implemented into the character.
.b) You show Maya users how to export the said character, yes you clear up a lot of theories and facts on what to do but it is still Maya users, Max users have to run a bit of a different direction to get the same results.
.c) The title should be "Using Mako to learn proper exporting protocols" or something similar because that is all your teaching us, "Proper exporting etiquette, not charater animation.". Also you may want to integrate the character work flow into the character tutorial because it merely expands upon what you've explained.
Other than that the other tutorials were extremely detailed in design, only the level design tutorial was more or less a generic "what to do" that could be found across multiple websites. Other than that excellent job!

to be continued

#88 2. I wanted this kit, I wanted it badly, even waited for it expecting to pay at least 100$ to 200$ for the fun of putting out ridiculous games for others to enjoy or just for learning the code better, but 500$ is not what I would consider chump change, nor is 5K$, that's hard earned cash for an assumption that I would be able to actually put out a game that could sale enough to gain back what I lost. In all honesty I could purchase Maya instead and that offers more then this engine does, and "IT" has refined and cleaned code by professionals and "IT" has a permanent license with the holder (contractual agreement withholding of course). See what I mean? I bought Torque as an indie license "Keyword Indie" and If I hit a professional level then yes I would purchase the commercial engine of T3D or TGEA, so why is it now that we the community suffer paying for such an extreme cost?

/still a bit more I promise it will all make sense!

#89 I've heard people say they have a right to do this, and that others have a right to not purchase it. I'm sorry but that is really a disrespectful answer, do you really believe that we don't know that, that people here who purchased Torque are are willing to purchase Torque don't understand that everything has a price!
Many have said "Well they do not won't everyone using there code." That is an opinion, not an answer and a bad opinion at that because its you own and not theirs.
Example: If Garage Games had the same mentality it would have been priced in close to the same range as the Unreal Engine (GG Sorry but this is merely an example) why would you take more time to build the code and not ever want people to use it, if that was the intended purpose in the first place? If Ubiq expects people to pay the harrowing price that they set why isn't there more!

Ubiq you've given us cheap...scratch that you have given us wonderfully inexpensive shaders. With the advent of this add on kit you offer 1 character who could have just as easily been the orc, tons of basic blocked difs that are simple and not complex, these things really don't have a bases on the engine because everyone is not going to hop in and make all their games using these items!
I understand with the new T3D engine coming out, your shaders will become null and void since the same properties and more have already been integrated into the newer and soon to appear T3D engine.


/hang with me a little longer!

#90 Now stepping into the light I will say this with your code, not only do you over camera control,AND! the ability to color coordinate the different paths, you also expanded upon the cameras triggers, the games triggers, and physical zones allowing this to work! You've expanded object control and implementation.

But to this kit I ask, how does AI work? How does shooting or hand to hand work if we want our character to be able to do combat, in all honesty you have not and I repeat not given us a complete adventure kit! A character being able to mount and an advance camera kit does not make. Your missing a ton of implementation, what about a putting a combat system like Zelda Twilight Princess, or Star Fox Adventures? Even Banjo Kazooie implemented these basic things.


Now in what I've said reflects what I feel.

I expected an "Adventure Kit" I got a quarter of one, an incomplete addon, with no combat, no save/load system, not even an upgraded gui system found in most of today's other adventure games, not even an inventory system.
You've given us a character that runs about the world with a powerful camera system, in reality this could have been two separate addons. You do not have what I would call an Adventure Kit worth 500 dollars to play with and 5000 to release as a product (course it would be stupid of me to release this as a game by itself ;) )!

/almost there I hope this is all constructive!

#91 Integrate the other options and I'll gladly mine the coffers of my account for that 500$ that is my solution to that problem.

For the problem of paying 5K! I would suggest the following, the first license is 5K this is not just the permission to release the game but an accepted contract to you Ubiq that every other release afterwords could be released at a discounted rate. I am being realistic here! A lot of companies do this from Game Developers to Contractors (I know its how I sell my actual job works) they offer themselves or there tools or there people at a high price, then they entice the buyer to come back by offering a discounted rate, thus they hit the contractors with a double whammy, like you they prove there capabilities, then they offer said capabilities a second time at a much lower price.

The above has worked well for me in contracting as well, I sell myself at a high price, then offer the companies I freelance to a major discount to hire me again or a deal to help me find another company to hire my skills, what would have been only a 1 time contract ends up being renewed so many times that I end up earning a decent pay to make up for my current job.

You do the above and I'll meet the 500$ Price tag, you go with the above licensing or something similar and I will put forth the first 5K and then accept the discount that you'll offer me afterward.

/one more to go I swear!

#92 I'll be honest though the likes of me purchasing the commercial engine is very difficult, I would rather it be 1K and then 500-750$ per every other release, based on the current economy, you have employed what many in the business world call a "White Elephant," you've this wonderful package that you've hyped both yourselves and your fans over, and then you went ahead and locked it into a locker with very extreme conditions, multiple businesses have hurt themselves this way and in noway do I mean disrespect, I merely give you a warning that you could really hurt yourselves in the long run by doing this and usually the results can be devastating if not remedied quickly.

I apologies for the length of the article, but I hope the criticism was both constructive and helpful in some way.

I love the work you've put out for us so far and I don't want you to quit, I just want to be "in my opinion" given a fair deal that will benefit me and you.

I'm sorry for the length but I've worked business and I've learned that putting a problem without a decent solution just makes one part of the problem 8( I hope I was able to get my points across, in no way do I intend to insult any one! If anyone does find this in some way insulting, I apologies, but I still stand by what I posted!

#93

Quote:Hello everyone,

First of all thank you for all of your opinions and thoughts. We are taking all of your comments into careful consideration especially regarding the licensing details. Feel free to voice your opinions as you please but let’s keep things civil as others have pointed out and constructive criticism is always more effective than ranting or personal attacks.

Just to make something completely transparent, GG did not have anything to do with the pricing of this kit so please let’s not instigate anything regarding GG, T3D and their price structure.

The pricing of this kit was something we had a lot of discussion over here. We wanted it to be affordable for everyone so you could all enjoy it (hobbyists included) while still making it affordable for us to develop.

To help give you some perspective into where the cost came from, the average programmer’s salary amounts to approximately $5000 per month. To reproduce the contents of the kit just on the programming side would take around 4 months of full time work. You can see there is already a drastic savings in development allowing dev teams to focus on game play and game design prototyping, rather than coding.

Some may not value the kit at its current price, while other may see value. It might not be for everyone at that price and we are okay with that. The price is what we decided the value of the kit was to us and to those who were serious about game development.

In terms of Commercial Licensing, if we had a structure in place similar to Garage Games where the Commercial License Fee would only take effect after a certain revenue cap was reached, would more people feel this was along their lines of what they would expect in terms of Commercial Licensing?

We look forward to hearing further constructive feedback regarding what the community wants in terms of pricing and licensing (thank you to all of those who respect our decisions and do not resort to anything less than civil discussion).

@ Lorne: I personally like the way you structured the commercial license and wouldn't want that to change. Having unlimited seats, and making it a per-title cost is really nice.

Now I can't speak for everyone, and wouldn't attempt to. But paying $5000 for an entire studio worth of programmers, is way more cost effective than the GG Commercial License in this case (because buying 10 licenses of TGEA for 10 programmers at 1495 a seat, is one thing, but 10 licenses of 3DAAK at 5000 a seat is a REALLY huge number).

So, please please, don't change the commercial.

#94 Stephen? You didnt read the first part did you?
Qouted by Lorne
"You must purchase a copy of the 3DAAK ($495) for each programmer who will be working with the code. This license grants you full access to the source-code to make your game. You may also release your game for free under this license."

Then you have to pay 5k per title, not per commercial license.... 3rd post page 1

#95 @ Edward: That is what I was referencing.

Quote:Then you have to pay 5k per title, not per commercial license.... 3rd post page 1

Hmm, I guess I was taking that as, essentially a Studio license, if I'm paying $5000 for a commercial license, why would I need to buy an indie license first? Like all of the software that sells on the GG site, you don't need to buy an Indie and upgrade to Commercial (you can but not a must), you can just purchase the commercial license.

You should read David MB's post on the Ubiq forums, it seems like you don't need an Indie, you can just get the commercial, and in Lorne's post that you quoted he said its not per seat, so that would make me believe that as a studio I could nab one license, at 5K, per title.

Edit: @ Lorne: Changing the Indie License to be like GG's Indie one would be great though (right now the "Indie" license is really a Educational License for any other program (ex. that's what 3DS Max does, full product, can't release sell anything with it, ecuational edition)

#96 It is not the cost of the commercial license that is the issue it si when it is due. Before you can release something is a deal killer for 99% of us. should be like the TGEA license when there is an income ceiling and one hit the commercial license comes due.

As for Loren's logic on the pricing if Autodesk applied the same logic to their tools then Maya and 3Ds max would cost about $20 or more per seat.

#97 My post over at the Ubiq forums was simply on presentation of their pricing on the site, not a comment about the pricing. I felt it would be nice to have the non-commercial and commercial pricing together so that studios could budget accordingly. It seemed strange to have it in a footnote.

I don't think there was ever any confusion over people being able to purchase the commercial version first if they chose and if it benefited their project. Or maybe I'm missing the point of what is being attributed to me.

#98 @ James: I think the problem seems to be who they are targetting with this kit. Everyone wants it to be a hobbyist friendly kit (which is understandable), but instead it seems to be more of an Indie Studio release. (This is still going by my assumption before)

Example, if I am looking for a Publisher, and I want to show a proof of concept for an Action Adventure game, with very little editing to the 3DAAK I'm sure you could put together a presentation that would be far more cost effective than developing all of the Tech demo yourself (Time vs. $$$).

@ David: I didn't mean to infer that you were commenting on the price. I was trying to attribute that you made it clearer that you can just purchase a Commercial license, and don't have to upgrade to it (Justinl's reply to your post there helped confirm that).

Edward seemed to take the "You must" section of Lorne's post as, "you must buy this first (meaning the indie version)" instead of "you must buy one per programmer (indie)" that Lorne meant. And your comment on buying the commercial and having to get a refund, if you had purchased the indie instead, confirmed you don't have to buy the indie, and then upgrade to the commercial.

#99 This is what he is saying.. the Commercial 5k specifically says 5k per title... so unless i was specifically buying this to make a game ie i needed ledge grabbing and a camera resource for 5k.. which is way over blown ... or.. if your correct as a indie, i can fork over 495 to play with the code, until which time i decide to publish then i get to pay 5k? Is that what i meant.. yah.. thats what it says.. IMO, unless im missing a official price change somewhere.. 495 for this pack.. for a indie level is a bit high, then the 5k price is a joke imo.. Its a great pack i am sure.. but I have T3d to consider buying.. im not going to be buy this pack when i have a potential 1k-5k price tag ( and since no one seems to know how much T3D is.. I have to spend it wisely.) the 495 stretches my idea of reasonable, 5k for a commercial license.. well sorry, its outside my tax bracket, and im sure its outside of most others idea of reasonable.. particularly when you really iron down the content...to its base components... If the price was 199, for indies and 495, with unlimited project use.. thats reasonable.. 5k for 1 title.. well thats something you see in high end middle wear, like SpeedTREE (which has a similar price tag). Ubiq makes good software.. I just think that they are targeting a different audience with this price tag then their previous 2 releases, which I own.. 40$.. 35$... 495 bucks with a 5k on release price tag.. its called sticker shock..

And I just checked

www.ubiqvisuals.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=55

read the very bottom...
its in the really small print..
*****if you wish to sell (for profit) a game using this kit, you will be required to upgrade to a Commercial License for $4995.
Contact us at info@ubiqvisuals.com This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it for further details.

So basically, unless im going to give my game for free.. after just paying.. lets see.. 5k.. Which as i read this, i have to pay before i make a penny.. or unless i dont plan to make a dime on my game.. smells like teen spirit to me..

also check their EULA again.. it does say 495 per seat.. I was re reading their EULA.. section 4a. So that 4995 isnt a commercial license.. its a title license.. slightly different.

www.ubiqvisuals.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=57

#100 @Edward:
Sorry Edward, I think I'm giving off the wrong impression. I was solely harping on the Commercial license and not the Indie, because that is the only one that affects my current goal.

Quote:also check their EULA again.. it does say 495 per seat.. I was re reading their EULA.. section 4a. So that 4995 isnt a commercial license.. its a title license.. slightly different.

www.ubiqvisuals.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=57

There still isn't a commercial EULA available, so we are still speculating a bit. But I'm not really sure what you are saying there? I think Commercial is the right name for it, instead of a Title license, because you can't release and you can't even use the kit, if you have the intent to sell Commercially without it.

Maybe the Indie license should be called "Non-Profit" License, since that would solve alot of the naming issues.

Quote:This is what he is saying.. the Commercial 5k specifically says 5k per title... so unless i was specifically buying this to make a game ie i needed ledge grabbing and a camera resource for 5k.. which is way over blown ... or.. if your correct as a indie, i can fork over 495 to play with the code, until which time i decide to publish then i get to pay 5k? Is that what i meant.. yah.. thats what it says.. IMO, unless im missing a official price change somewhere.. 495 for this pack.. for a indie level is a bit high, then the 5k price is a joke imo.. Its a great pack i am sure.. but I have T3d to consider buying.. im not going to be buy this pack when i have a potential 1k-5k price tag ( and since no one seems to know how much T3D is.. I have to spend it wisely.) the 495 stretches my idea of reasonable, 5k for a commercial license.. well sorry, its outside my tax bracket, and im sure its outside of most others idea of reasonable.. particularly when you really iron down the content...to its base components... If the price was 199, for indies and 495, with unlimited project use.. thats reasonable.. 5k for 1 title.. well thats something you see in high end middle wear, like SpeedTREE (which has a similar price tag). Ubiq makes good software.. I just think that they are targeting a different audience with this price tag then their previous 2 releases, which I own.. 40$.. 35$... 495 bucks with a 5k on release price tag.. its called sticker shock..

I completely understand that. Based on their track record, I was expecting a max price tag of $200, more than the AFX Combo for TGEA and the Combat Starter Kit (the two most expensive kit on GG). They're kit is the most visually polished of any I released TGEA kit I've seen, so I expected more than the previous two, but a jump to more than the price of the Engine its on, was quite a suprise.

I think they decided to change their demographic for this kit, and I believe that what a lot of the folks in these comments have had to say is the reason behind it. Several people have said that this is essentially a more polished advanced camera resource, and climbing kit. For most hobbyist who have been using this engine for a while they could use those resources and get something up and running to the same effect, in a short time. So why would they be interested in the kit? And the Assets that come with any kit aren't something you are going to keep as is if you release a game, you are going to want to replace them with your own, so doesn't seem like a fit their either.

But if you are a Studio and you need to bust out a functional prototype, being able to start on the 3DAAK and only needing to add gameplay functionality (AI, Combat) to make a whole playable demo, seems way worth 5K. Like I would purchase the 495 so I could tinker around in it, evaluate that it can do what I would like to see it do (ex. I don't know if the whole Player/Animation system it has are useful for me, because I don't have Maya), and then upgrade to the commercial section if I felt I could make a good commercial release with it.

So trust me, I understand your disappointment, but considering what most in the comments feel is a kit lacking functionality, doesn't have indie friendly art source files (Maya based instead of Milkshape or Houdini), would you have wanted to pay even AFX combo pack prices for it as an Indie dev?