3D Action Adventure Kit - Now Available

#61 @Lorne.

I have waited for good long time to purchase not just this kit, but your others as well. To be honest, this kit was just more for curiosity for me. Others should not assume that because I do not want to pay the price, that I am not serious about game development or a true Indie. I believe in letting people know why you are not interested in their product, after originally voicing interest.

It is true that a programmer makes $5K a month and I will say that for me, that is a little low. The point is, that I can either do this myself (and already have in some cases) or hire someone to do it, my way. Buying your code I still have to either implement it myself, or pay someone to do it. If I pay them up front maybe $7K, I only pay $7K and it's mine and I can do whatever I want regardless of how much I make. I have worked way to long (in other fields) with OOTB kits, and know what a pain they are to maintain with updates as opposed to having control over the total source. I will choose total control of source anytime.


In the end, you have some great products and I wish you success..

#62 My Suggestion...

Indie License:

- $250.00 per game
- Once game hits $50,000.00 in sales, must pay additional $3500.00
- No access to private forums
- Direct access /trouble tickets at $50.00 each time

Commercial License:

- $1500.00 per game / No additional cost per game
- Access to private forums
- 3 free trouble tickets for direct access to Dev's / after these $50.00 a ticket.


- Obviously I made a fairly big difference between the Indie and the Commercial. I did this to make people weigh the overall advantages of paying more up front instead of waiting. GG's $250,000 limit is.. in my opinion to high of a threshold for a kit; In other words I doubt you would see your money return. $50,000 is more reasonable and in fact, you could probably go even lower to $25,000.

The Indie price of $250.00 is almost half of what you originally stated, but I believe from a business stand point, you will make more in the long and short term by doing this than you would at $495.00. You would see more of a return from something along the lines of what I posted above than you ever will from the original plan.

I do not tell you these things in order to get your package on the cheap. If I were in your shoes (and I do sell packs), this is what I would do. These are just my thoughts, nothing more. I think your products are very nice, and that you guys are very skilled.

I hope to see more from you guys.

~LK~

#63 @Andrew Brady
Exactly

as for the license ...
for me to consider buying this there much be no requirment of going commercial before release. Second the amount is Way too high I think Andrew has a good proposal.

as for the indie price of $250 well That is at the very upper end of what I was willing to pay but I would do it.

I think just with the people that have discussed this here you are prolly looking at close to 10K or so at $250

Think about it you have to have a longer view and not expect to make it all right back. the time you put into this pack is an investment. Investments take time to return and grow. this is game development not a weekend in Vegas.

#64 I don't know about $250 thats still abit up there. I mean no offense but the meat and potatos of this kit is player control and a camera. I like I am sure most here would be willing to pay $100 with limited to no support (pending that the kit works and is easy to intergrate out of the box). You can then do like a $50 trouble ticket type setup or talk with GG about getting a private forum setup and let us talk out any issues among ourself's.

Already there are 62 posts here so thats atleast 25 people interested in buying the game just from posting here. Thats not to mention all the people that don't post on here.

A kit like this could easily sale 100+ copies at $100 a license with restrictions set on sales of the game.

Just as an example the MMOKit even at its pricing sold alot more then 100 licenses. When I was working there with sales without giving exact numbers I know it was over 300+ purchases of the kit.

But thats just my opinion on the pricing. At $250 I still think it might be out of reach for a large portion of the hobbie crew.

#65 :yawn:

#66 well i have made some good posts here and i agree with thomas that buying this is mostly just for "player control and a camera" but its good to have everything in one package and its also more then likely better then the free version stuff.

i still think $100 is a good price to put it and then have a commercial license for this for when we hit 50k. there's lots willing to pay for this i not 100% decided if i want it my self yet but i got lots of time to decide that. as of right now that that price of where its at now i not even thinking about buying it.

this should be a good learning experience for more packs you release. i just hope you learn from it after this price is set in stone for this kit.

#67 I'm kinda in agreement with Andy's suggestion, though i'd think somewhere in the 100-150 range would be better.
One thing i completely disagree with, however, is this line:

-Once game hits $50,000.00 in sales, must pay additional $3500.00

I don't see how making indies pay more than the commercial license makes any real sense.

I also think it's unfair to not include private forums, when most all other products sold in the past do that. Community support is a huge thing, and charging them extra for it, or removing it entirely seems like a low blow.

Other than that and the core pricing for the indie pricing, i agree pretty solidly with that model.

Indie:
-Low entry cost, $100-150 per game.
-Upgradeable to commercial license for the difference; upgrade required -when reaching the $50,000 dollar mark.
-Direct access /trouble tickets at $50.00 each time

Commercial(intended for studios making over $50,000):
- $1500.00 per game / No additional cost per game
- 3 free trouble tickets for direct access to Dev's / after these $50.00 a ticket.

#68

Quote:I don't see how making indies pay more than the commercial license makes any real sense.

Here is what my thoughts were behind this. How many Dev's that buy this will ever make 50,000 dollars? How about 25,000 dollars? I think the people who pay less up front SHOULD pay more later. The company who makes the product is taking a huge risk that you will be successful which allows for the lower price. 99.99 percent of those who will buy this product.. Indie and Commercial will be Indie's. If Lorne wants to take a risk on me buy letting me pay a small amount up front instead of the 1500.00 I purposed for the Commercial.. then his trust in me should benefit him in a greater way than someone who paid upfront.

Yea, financially I want it to be 100.00 or less, but ethically I can't allow myself to call for that. There's got to be give and take.. not just a take it or leave it $5000.00 price tag.. nor a $100.00 giveaway. blah.. I'm rambling...

#69 so your saying andrew that these indie owners that work so hard will have to pay more then they get over 50k on there game. where a commercial owner that already has lots and lots of money because they are already successful with there games get to pay less.

i still don't see your point in having indies that work harder then commercial owners will have to pay more then a successful company. i hope you see my point i am saying with indie vs commercial prices.

#70 This is not socialism Brandon but capitalism. It doesnt matter if we have little money and others have more. It matters whats the best way Lorne can make a return on his investment.

The likelyhood that enough Indie's will make 50,000 dollars is very.. very low. Knowing this, what incentive is there for people to buy the Commercial version? Why would anyone risk selling something cheap based on a plan that has been proven time and time again to very rarely work?

Look.. all I was saying is that if a person shells out over a grand up front, they should get a better deal than someone who gives acouple hundred dollars on a promise that clearly, rarely ever happens.

#71 OMG Brandon... Why don't you buy something before debating pricing with anybody? We go through this in nearly every blog, where you are at it with actual Torque owners, telling them how they're wrong. At some point it gets old.

Quote:
The implication of the original comment is that they were going to price lower but GG might have convinced them to go higher. I was countering that what went on between Ubiq Visuals and GG was our own business, but nothing was stated by either of us on what was discussed or decided upon.

Michael, your original comment was directed at me. There was no implication in my comment. My comment was more of an "if GG is doing that, then that's a new low for them." Notice the "if" part. :)

Anyway, they have explained their pricing structure and basically we take it or leave it. If it doesn't work for them, then they'll have to lower the price if they want to sell it. That's all. No need to even recommend a price or licensing structure. Let the market sort it out.

#72 to: joe

whats the deference from being a torque owner or a non torque owner nothing but source joe.

they have even said they want us to voice your opinions thats what a community is about weather you like it or not.

i sorry if i might offend you in some way but you keep going after these non torque owners when there's really no difference besides one has source to the engine. i will be buying torque this week and its not just to have source access but to keep you from saying such things ageist me just for being a non torque owner. this is the 5-6th time you have said something to me just for being a non torque owner. me i can care less weather own owns a license or not they both can do just about the same amount of work weather you have source or don't have source. when its time to release they buy the engine i see people do that here already.
_____

sorry Lorne McIntosh for using your blog for such words but it had to be said at some point. i been wanting to say it from the 3rd criticism he has said to me just for being a non torque owner.

#73 Joe: Lorne posted this:

We look forward to hearing further constructive feedback regarding what the community wants in terms of pricing and licensing (thank you to all of those who respect our decisions and do not resort to anything less than civil discussion).

a little while ago, which seems like they're curious what we think of the pricing and our suggestions. If they're asking what we think, we might as well tell them.

Andrew:
I can kind of see where you're coming from with that, but it's still unfair to indies.
You're essentially saying that in the one-in-a-million chance an indie does a successful game, we should milk them. But since we already know a successful company has lots of money, we'll let them be.
It makes much more sense overall to have the commercial pricing set the 'bar' and when you exceed the minimum price point as an indie(in the probided examples, $50,000) you upgrade to the commercial license by paying the difference.

Imagine if you bought the indie version of TGEA, and when your game ends up being successful, you have to pay twice the commercial license price. It'd be pretty lousy, wouldn't it?
I don't mind them charging whatever they feel is fit for the commercial license, i'd just like to see an indie license that, pending a indie game is released, and is decently successful, will have them pay for whatever the commercial pricing is.

#74 @ Jeff

I'm really not advocating the milking of Indie people. What I'm saying is there needs to be some form of cost benefit for the developer to allow the Indie to purchase licenses at very cheap rates while still allowing them to make some money. It's basic math guys. A contract like the one GG uses does not really work for kits or packs. I would wager money.. ask any of the pack developers how many times they have collected on the "Indie Contract". I would be amazed if any of them stated more than 1 or 2. In most cases, I suggest the answer would be never.

So, what people are asking is for the developer to freely enter into a contract knowing they will not receive any further funds because.. Indies have it hard. Now.. it does benefit the developers to have an Indie price tag that is reasonably cheap or they will price themselves out of the market entirely. I look at the contracts for the Indie's as a loan of sorts. They are allowing you to use their tech for a minimal downpayment with the hopes they will get a bigger return later on. Why should someone who is essentially making a loan for Indie's not expect interest on their investment in your project? If I go buy a car with cash (Commercial License) I pay the sticker price, end of story. If I go and get a loan, within the next several years, do I not pay more than the person who paid in cash? Can I tell the banks and car dealerships thanks for the money, but I'm not rich like the other guy so you shouldn't charge me for your trust in me?

I'll stop here, because I think we all are totally taking Lorne's thread off subject. I apologize Lorne, and my suggestions are somewhere above. Good Luck with whatever you decide to do.

#75 actually, Andrew, I know a few folks that sell packs on this site, and while its not raking in the money, there is a lot of steady sales in the indie pack licenses.. there are also alot of commericial level sales. Its alot more then 1-2..

#76 I meant 1-2 Indie's meeting the threshold of paying the next amount. In other words.. Indie's who's games qualify them to pay further to become commercial.

#77 Nod, i think the big confusion, is the part where folks that do make 250k (and folks do) they are obligated by license to purchase the GG commercial license and the packs that they own. Same principle here should be applied. If its a 50k income ceiling. I still think thats a bit low. But hey since my income is 0, and my budget is limited per month. Ill have to wait until this issue is resolved beside the rest of the indies that would like to possibly be one of those 1-2 that might make the commercial threshold.. no sales mean 0 commerical sales from those indie persons. There are i am sure a few folks that have commercial licenses that have already purchased this to see what the fuss is. The General feedback i hear is, the pack is good, but not worth the up front indie price asked for against the target audience.

#78 andrew if lets say i get to 50k profits and you want me to pay 3,500 just because i did well. i rather just go and buy the commercial then pay the 3,500 you might be able to force them to pay the 3,500. i would try to find a legal way of buying the commercial license then paying the 3,500.

#79 lol.. remind me to not enter into a contract with you sir! ;)

#80 fine with me but how is one to know you own the indie license anyway and he has to be forced to upgrade to 3500. he can just buy the commercial which has no difference from the indie commercial. if you want indies to pay more then you just make the commercial license more money but the commercial people still have to pay for that commercial price.

even if you track there ip address when they buy the indie you know there are programs out there to change your ip address so ether way people will find a way to not pay for the higher indie price. this is why no company makes a license like you said you want it to be there's no reason to have it as people will not follow it.

i am a trust worthy person so i don't mind saying what i would do to by pass what license your saying should be put into affect. i mostly just saying people will not follow it there might be some people but why would people pay 2k more for no reason thats allot of extra money for no reason. mostly people will find a way to get out of that extra cost that they know there is a way around it.

you think it would just be me doing what i said but i know there will be lots as 2k is a big difference that people are not going to want to pay. i plan on buying allot of stuff if it will help get things rolling faster this is one of those items. it cost more money then the engine and to release a game with it is way out of my line in spending. i see no point in looking at it unless the license and price is changed just like many others have said the price needs to be changed. i am just saying whats not good to have a license that your saying to have do they can know every detail of what people will do with your license. andrew i saving them lots of thinking time if they was to think about it by there self with the license your proposing.

its bad that you don't want to enter contracts with me but you have every right to have contracts with anyone you want. my pointers a good even if you don't like them your self i just bad with grammar is all so there are those that could say it better then me.