3D Action Adventure Kit - Now Available

#41 I am interested to hear from the creators of the pack regarding the community response.

#42 It really doesn't matter what our response was. They set thier price and I wish them the best.. I just don't see anyone buying it at the price but if they sell it more power to them.

#43

Quote:
I know you guys said that you have spent the last month almost haggling with GG about the license for this pack. I hope that they didn't put you up to this pricing just to test the water for them.

Why would they have to haggle with GG about the license for their own content pack? If this is true and is the future of GG, then the future of GG is very bleak.

#44 @Joe No one put anyone up to anything. Please do not speculate or assume. Ubiq Visuals is a self run company. They are the true Indie: self-funded, self-managed, self-developed, self-published, etc. They chose to make a product, developed it, and have a right to sell it however they wish.

#45 @Michael

I don't think anyone is disputing that.. well almost anyone. It is their right to do what they wish, it's just many people are flabbergasted at their pricing decision and are having issues discerning what could have possessed them to think their current pricing and licensing system was a good idea.

For most, an analogy could be.. they have a really great tasting pack of gum that allows for really big bubbles and keeps its flavor longer. Instead of pricing it around the same price as other gum, they priced it at $100.00 dollars a pack. ...In the end.. its still just gum.

#46 well i think i know why they priced it this way its because they want very few people to use it in there game as i bet they want to release a game with it there self's and want it to be some what unique to there game. they don't want 100s of games with the same code out there they rather keep it more of a unique asset. i not taking that risk as if i pay 5k for it how will i know if i going to make profit back from it.

5k is about 3 times of what i payed for my computer but a this computer has more use then there source. its a good asset but i just don't see how its worth it you cant make a game with just his kit you will have to put many months and years of work to have a finished game. all that time still cost money even if your working by your self as you should count your self as being payed for that work you did to release our game.

they can keep the price if they want but like many have said they are loosing money doing so and afx like mostly have said has more stuff then what this kit comes with and its way cheaper then what this cost. most of the stuff in this pack as already been released for free even though there's is professional work but still most of us don't see its worth this price. i not paying for any asset that costs more then the engine price as these assets don't help you that much to get your game finished the engine saves you years of work if you had to do it your self assets don't. if i was to rebuild tgea engine it would take 5 or more years and thats with a team fairly large team like gg. your asset can be done in maybe 2-6 months so i don't see how its worth paying for. i rather pend the 2-6 months doing it mys self.

#47 @ Michael

There is no need to be the gunslinger, you are right -their product -their price -but!

We are allowed to speculate and assume all we like. Thats how it goes with producers and customers -now!

Ubig perfectly well know the culture here, and the pockets of the audience. They where just about to release, just had a tine lil handfull of things and a talk with GG to do. Then time passed by and someone calls it a T3D soak -bam!

Out comes a neat lil pack at a pricetag so out of the norms in this culture that everyone goes O.o -it's very clear that they actualy wants no oone to buy it -and it that really bad ROI -oh yes!

Unless they actually got that covered already -dont tell me that they dident calculate X no's for 200$, X no's for 500$ and all that sheet already -all this is insulting them as well as me (our) minds...

And the total lack on feedback from them (Ubiq) only strengthen me in this belief -that I'm so darn right to have as part of this culture!


So -I am looking forward to seeing this inside T3D (hopefully) -as well as 'it's' price tag!

#48

Quote:@Joe No one put anyone up to anything. Please do not speculate or assume. Ubiq Visuals is a self run company. They are the true Indie: self-funded, self-managed, self-developed, self-published, etc. They chose to make a product, developed it, and have a right to sell it however they wish.

Take it up with Lorne McIntosh. He is the one that said that they were having to haggle with GG over the license of the pack for a little over a month.

I can see a reason that GG would want it to be more expensive though. If people could get all of this functionality could a couple hundred on top of the existing TGEA then there is little incentive to pay a thousand or more for T3D.

But who knows All I know is that every thing they did before this was very fairly priced then they said they had to haggle with GG and didn't respond to emails or anything for about a month and then all of the sudden this. Either something is fishy or those guys up there in BC are smokin' to much.

It is really irrelevant the fact of the matter is even if the engine it self cost be 2K I still would not pay more than $200 for this kit. and I would not pay more than $500 for it commercially "after reaching the $250K not before"

#49 ... Wouldn't it be nice if Lorne McIntosh addressed all of these issues from what James (above) brought up to thoughts behind pricing? I mean even if just to put this all to rest before it becomes more damaging than it already is.

#50 The implication of the original comment is that they were going to price lower but GG might have convinced them to go higher. I was countering that what went on between Ubiq Visuals and GG was our own business, but nothing was stated by either of us on what was discussed or decided upon.

How do you know we didn't say "sell it lower"? Or "give it away for free"? Or "just give it to us sell"? Those were just as viable situations, but some people jumped to the conclusion that we encouraged a higher price.

Address Ubiq Visuals about their product and price, not us.

Something else to think about, since there is speculation running around: just because they posted on GG, does that mean the community is their *only* audience? What if they are also targeting Indies and pro studios that have higher budgets?

#51 I didn't just mp to the conclusion.
I said:

Quote:I know you guys said that you have spent the last month almost haggling with GG about the license for this pack. I hope that they didn't put you up to this pricing just to test the water for them.

Again not being transparent leaves thing open to interpretation and guessing. some are right and some are wrong.

I simply stated that their prices were inline with the value of their product before according to "Lorne McIntosh" the entered into a month long haggle session with GG about licensing. After emerging from these discussions the release the product at a cost 4 time higher than any add-on than anything GG has seen to date. And with a Very restrictive license.

Now maybe GG had nothing to do with it, maybe they did I don't know I will say that here and now all I can comment on is the information as I ahve recieved it and my own theories to fill in the blanks.

No offense to you Michael. I have the utmost respect for you. But, I honestly doubt that GG's legal and business department come get you to sit in to their licensing discussion with 3rd party products. Again I could be wrong this. This is just my theorizing based on own my business experience.

But as many have said Lorne could clear all of this up by commenting on it.

#52 Nothing left on my end to say about GG's interaction with Ubiq Visuals. It was between us so I'll let everyone think what they want.

Quote:But, I honestly doubt that GG's legal and business department come get you to sit in to their licensing discussion with 3rd party products

Way off topic, but still:

Tech & Tools is a very tight nit group. Socially, we all hang out at each other's houses and apartments playing Magic, Rock Band, and TF2. At work, we discuss every aspect of what goes on at GG. Because I'm in these blogs and forums every day posting, I like to ask what's going on in other departments (such as 3rd party management or accounting).

I actually get to sit in on meetings (not all) that do not involve documentation , but affect the community. That's usually my request and it is often obliged. I usually do not influence the outcome, but it allows me to speak with a solid understanding (even if I do not divulge that).


Edit and Full Disclosure - I did not sit in on any meetings or get CC'd in e-mails regarding Ubiq Visuals and their products.

Also, I appreciate the discussion remaining civil, as pricing talk usually gets really heated. I'll speak for GG, just not Ubiq Visuals. Still, it's nice to be in a community where this is possible.

#53

Quote:The implication of the original comment is that they were going to price lower but GG might have convinced them to go higher. I was countering that what went on between Ubiq Visuals and GG was our own business, but nothing was stated by either of us on what was discussed or decided upon.

I don't know anything about this. No one has addressed this (ie Lorne or GG) to this point. The matter is still up in the air.

Quote:How do you know we didn't say "sell it lower"? Or "give it away for free"? Or "just give it to us sell"? Those were just as viable situations, but some people jumped to the conclusion that we encouraged a higher price.

I don't know this. I'm not willing to accuse such a sinister action at GG at this time.

Quote:Address Ubiq Visuals about their product and price, not us.

We have, and so have dozens of others. No response has been made.

Quote:Something else to think about, since there is speculation running around: just because they posted on GG, does that mean the community is their *only* audience? What if they are also targeting Indies and pro studios that have higher budgets?

The product is geared for Torque. This has been made in statements as well as items included in the pack itself. As far as those with bigger budgets, I can not say. I'm guessing there's not to many of those around. Also, Statements have been made directed at the community of GG which indicated a general use of the product.

None of this precludes the right of Lorne and his team to price this pack as they see fit. Most people just want a response on the matter is all.

#54 Perhaps Ubiq is even upset with GG? After all, their last 2 products (awesome job!) appear to be possibly included with the next TGEA, T3D. As it's not their code/shaders, they will soon (or not so soon, knowing GG :P) lose out on that income source.

If it was possible to glance at the code, perhaps I would be interested; although I do know thats not a feasible idea. Is the camera/movement code a major leap forward that I could not possibly replicate at the hobbyist coder level? Or is it something I could do myself given a bit of time and desire?

I fell the pricing is a bummer too though, and the license itself is simply ridiculous. I wanted this pack ever since it was announced, as I have a deep interest in the player side of the code (my resources show that). If I knew for a fact they did something amazing, I might attempt to save up 500 for it. Doubtful, but possibly. The license though; come one, get real. Once the parts of the code I wanted were merged into my own project(s), no one would ever consider it a built-upon action/adventure kit. I doubt anyone serious here is building a clone of a kit they bought, most are grabbing all the time savers they can from them and making their own unique ideas. As for the full license of $5k, wow, there are a LOT of great middleware products out there for around that much that offer a huge amount to Torque, far beyond movement and viewing.

#55 @Lorne
As you can see we love your products (SSAO and Depth of Field Shader) and we have purchased them in the past. The entire community was excited about the new kit and many of us were ready to purchase it because of the quality of your companies past work.
Unfortunately we all reacted to the sticker price basically the same way. Forgive us if it sounded agressive or rude, but we are a virtual family here so hopefully there is no offense taken.

#56 Hello everyone,

First of all thank you for all of your opinions and thoughts. We are taking all of your comments into careful consideration especially regarding the licensing details. Feel free to voice your opinions as you please but let’s keep things civil as others have pointed out and constructive criticism is always more effective than ranting or personal attacks.

Just to make something completely transparent, GG did not have anything to do with the pricing of this kit so please let’s not instigate anything regarding GG, T3D and their price structure.

The pricing of this kit was something we had a lot of discussion over here. We wanted it to be affordable for everyone so you could all enjoy it (hobbyists included) while still making it affordable for us to develop.

To help give you some perspective into where the cost came from, the average programmer’s salary amounts to approximately $5000 per month. To reproduce the contents of the kit just on the programming side would take around 4 months of full time work. You can see there is already a drastic savings in development allowing dev teams to focus on game play and game design prototyping, rather than coding.

Some may not value the kit at its current price, while other may see value. It might not be for everyone at that price and we are okay with that. The price is what we decided the value of the kit was to us and to those who were serious about game development.

In terms of Commercial Licensing, if we had a structure in place similar to Garage Games where the Commercial License Fee would only take effect after a certain revenue cap was reached, would more people feel this was along their lines of what they would expect in terms of Commercial Licensing?

We look forward to hearing further constructive feedback regarding what the community wants in terms of pricing and licensing (thank you to all of those who respect our decisions and do not resort to anything less than civil discussion).

#57 I just want to step in for a second and clear some things up. Ubiq gave me beta access to this kit awhile ago and I am really impressed with what they have done. This kit is in line with where I think all genre kits should be going. It not only provided the necessary assets to jump start an Action Adventure project but displayed really well what the kit was capable of. People might not use the assets for their own game but they provide a good working example of how to create optimized art assets for use in their kit.

Regarding the licensing and GarageGames involvement with that. As I said I really liked the kit and even suggested to Ubiq that GG might be interested in purchasing it, or funding it's expansion. We went through normal talks about this to see if there was a good fit with meeting of minds and all that. We gave it a go, but in the end, Ubiq preferred to go their own route. They set their own pricing and licensing model, targeted their own feature spec, and released on their own schedule.

All in all, I think 3DAA kit is an great product that adds enormous value for people trying to make a game with similar features. Of course, I'm hoping that we'll see future Ubiz releases done in collaboration with GG and bringing them to the GarageGames Developer Store.

#58 Hey Lorne, thanks for the feedback.

About your pricing philosophy : Generally with selling software the cost is made back by selling units, and the cost is diluted over those units.

For example, the cost of a Windows OS in programmer salaries etc is VASTLY more than the cost per individual license. But you don't charge each customer the price of development unless you only intend to have one customer (ala contract work). When you plan to shift many units, you dilute the price across the number of customers.

What is the optimal price level is certainly something that needs to be determined, but I know of no software product intended for mass market that charges each and every customer the full price of development, or even a quarter of that price.

Imagine if GG actually charged each user the full price of Torque development in programmer salaries! Their community would be a wasteland, if it existed at all. Yet they make enough to support themselves, it seems.

#59 Nod, that would explain the line of thought.. For a commercial programmer sure 5k a month is what they make.. but what about the indies, you know the guys that are making 17k a year on their final gross taxes.. the 18 year old, or are you only targeting the few sales and this is where you plan to keep it?

My critical opinion is you put out a indie version of the kit.. base line animation, assets and code. for say 99 dollars... sell 50 of those and you made your money.. I know alot of folks have been eyein this.. maybe addin the Shader kits.. Depth of field and sell it as a complete Starter Kit.. But Definitly rethink your price package.

#60 gg has a good license you want 5k to release are games with the kit but yet we have not made any money to be able to pay 5k for it. lets say we buy it for $100 which i think is a good price for it and if we make 250k a year well you know we have 250k extra money or less to be able to afford it the commercial license. i say price it at $100 and if we make 250k or more off are game then pay like $500-$1000 for the commercial license.

it took you 4 months but like someone has already said if you price it at $100 and 50 people buy it well your 3 months short but what if 10 of those finish there game and make 250k a year and at a price of 1k for commercial well you just took out 2 months right there till 1 month but over the years there will always be more people buying the kit so you will make your money sooner or later. you don't have to make your money back all in 1 month it should take some years to get the money back as long as you keep it advertised people will buy it.

do you guys think gg will make all there money back with T3D in one day i think not it will take some months or years to gain the money back. GG is different though as its the engine what we all must own to be able to use your kit but gg have lots of people that own it so they can make there money back allot faster then a kit. people will continue to buy torque engines as long as its still here to be sold and new buyers will be looking for kits like this.

your kits is popular already and we don't even own it yet allot of us want the kit as well so if you price it right you will make your profits faster then you think. maybe you can make a vote with different prices it let you know how many would be willing to buy it as so and so price and see if it would get your profits back faster at so and so price. me i would not mind spending no more then $100 for this kit with a license much like gg's and i bet allot of others would like the same thing. 500 and 5k is way to much mostly with how the license it set up.