Torque 3D Development - Chris Robertson and Collada
by Brett Seyler · 02/17/2009 (10:19 am) · 84 comments
Last week we introduced the first look at at new tools for Torque 3D with the Torque Launcher. Today, we've got a very big announcement to follow that up. Though we've already talked about this some publicly in IRC and the forums, it's going to radically change Torque's content pipeline.
Chris' Bio
"I'm a software developer from New Zealand. Been using Torque in my spare time for about 5 years. Best known for developing the Milkshape and Houdini DTS exporters.""I'm working on adding Collada support to Torque, so the engine can now load a Collada model in the same way it loads a DTS (ie. as part of a script object or directly from the World Editor). I've also extended TSShapeConstructor to allow nodes, sequences and even meshes to be added, removed and renamed when a DTS or Collada shape is loaded. This is a great complement to the Collada loader, since you can take just about any model at all (such as from Google's 3D Warehouse) and "Torquify" it without having to muck around with importing and re-exporting."
Apparently New Zealand is too small for Google to acknowdege, but it's the land of Mordor and Flight of the Concords, so it's already more famous that Australia (though I am a Russell Crowe fan). Kiwis have better accents too.
Now, we've had this working with Torque for some time now, but this is the kind of feature that's going to take many, many use cases before we're satisfied that it's 100%. To that end, we're inviting everyone to test this functionality with any and all content you can find and give us your feedback. Let us know where we still need to work out some kinks, and by the time we release Torque 3D, it will have the smoothest, easiest, most polished art pipeline out there for the widest number of tools.
How can you get started?
We've created a custom build of TGEA 1.8.1 with the Collada loading functionality wrapped in. This is a binary build, but it should provide everything you need to test out the new content pipeline. You'll find thorough documentation in the root install directory, and we're encouraging you to post your feedback in this forum. You can also read more technical details in this forum post. The Torque Collada Test is set to expire in less than a month (March 13th at 5:00 PM PST) so jump in as soon as possible and start testing!
Download Torque Collada Test
I had a quick run at what we could do with this new build, so I'll share it with you all as a quick walk-though.
Collada loading in Torque is a big deal, but it's one of many pieces that will change the way artists work with Torque 3D. There's a lot more to show. Please take some time and take the Torque 3D Collada Test build for a spin. Help us make Torque 3D even better with your feedback!
More development blogs to come. This is post #10.
Torque 3D development blogs:
- Post #1 - Kickoff
- Post #2 - Apparatus and Warrior Camp
- Post #3 - Luma's racing kit
- Post #4 - Josh Engebretson and Web Publishing
- Post #5 - Pricing and Licensing
- Post #6 - Pricing and Licensing CONTINUED
- Post #7 - Wetness & Precipitation
- Post #8 - Screeen Space Ambient Occlusion (SSAO)
- Post #9 - Matt Langley and the Torque Launcher
- Post #10 - Chris Robertson and Collada
- Post #11 - Depth of Field
- Post #12 - Advanced Lighting
- Post #13 - Soft Particles
- Post #14 - World Editor
- Post #15 - Pricing and Licensing ANNOUNCED!
- Post #16 - GDC Live Edition
- Post #17 - River & Road Editors
- Post #18 - Beta is UP!
- Post #19 - Light Rays, Undercity, Material Editor
- Post #20 - Mass Market Hardware
- Post #21 - Beta: Part Deux
- Post #22 - Marching Towards Beta 3
- Post #23 - pureLIGHT
- Post #24 - Lighting, Terrain, and Cloth
- Post #25 - Beta 3! [li]Post #26 - Coming Soon!
About the author
Since 2007, I've done my best to steer Torque's development and brand toward the best opportunities in games middleware.
#42
As far as the docs go, Chris Robertson wrote the original content for the Collada Overview and TSShapeConstructor Specification. I formatted it, converted it to our doc system, and checked in a few updates per his suggestion. He is an awesome tech writer, and I hope I can work with him in the future with more docs.
02/18/2009 (6:10 am)
@Randy - You can post feedback in the Collada Test Forum.As far as the docs go, Chris Robertson wrote the original content for the Collada Overview and TSShapeConstructor Specification. I formatted it, converted it to our doc system, and checked in a few updates per his suggestion. He is an awesome tech writer, and I hope I can work with him in the future with more docs.
#43
I would like to use the Collada pipeline to create contents in the future. But I am also a bit confused. There are so many questions I could not find answers for:
1) How to find documentation if you are an external artist?
2) How to setup character structures?
3) How to setup vehicles?
4) How to handle transparency (I remember issues with Z-sorting from the past)?
5) How to setup LOD, collision and billboards?
I see it similar like Thomas. A good tool like a node-tree editor with a good documentation how to setup nodes (vehicles as an example) is very important to really support artists and an art workflow. But if there is only hidden documentation with no examples then it will be hard and only insiders can create art for Torque.
Since I am a programmer also I could even write my own node-tree editor for dae files. But first I need absolutely clear documentation, a few examples and a testing environment. But it would be much better if someone from GG does this job.
I hope there will be some tutorials soon and please, do not only address $3,500 tools like Max.
02/18/2009 (8:05 am)
At Dexsoft we are creating textures and models for sale and as custom jobs.I would like to use the Collada pipeline to create contents in the future. But I am also a bit confused. There are so many questions I could not find answers for:
1) How to find documentation if you are an external artist?
2) How to setup character structures?
3) How to setup vehicles?
4) How to handle transparency (I remember issues with Z-sorting from the past)?
5) How to setup LOD, collision and billboards?
I see it similar like Thomas. A good tool like a node-tree editor with a good documentation how to setup nodes (vehicles as an example) is very important to really support artists and an art workflow. But if there is only hidden documentation with no examples then it will be hard and only insiders can create art for Torque.
Since I am a programmer also I could even write my own node-tree editor for dae files. But first I need absolutely clear documentation, a few examples and a testing environment. But it would be much better if someone from GG does this job.
I hope there will be some tutorials soon and please, do not only address $3,500 tools like Max.
#44
All of our documentation has been completely public for more than a year so I am not sure where you are getting "only hidden documentation" from?
02/18/2009 (8:17 am)
Anyone can download the Torque Collada Test and read the included documentation, play with the examples, and test things out.All of our documentation has been completely public for more than a year so I am not sure where you are getting "only hidden documentation" from?
#45
But I still have problems to find samples and tutorials.
As I already mentioned. I am able to write my own Collada node editor, though I dont think this is my job. But I need knowledge about every detail, every node, how they are arranged and some samples.
02/18/2009 (8:27 am)
My comment towards "hidden documentation" is more geared to the huge amount of additional non-official documents. Sorry if this was misleading.But I still have problems to find samples and tutorials.
As I already mentioned. I am able to write my own Collada node editor, though I dont think this is my job. But I need knowledge about every detail, every node, how they are arranged and some samples.
#46
But i dont know all the nodes. There is no complete listing.
Michael Perry should think about such a documentation (including a huge amount of examples).
02/18/2009 (8:37 am)
It should be possible to use Lightwave (in my case) as a visual tool to create the nodes i need. But i dont know all the nodes. There is no complete listing.
Michael Perry should think about such a documentation (including a huge amount of examples).
#47
The 'Collada Loader' document, has all the Torque 'features' that Collada will support at this time.
While I do maintain a large 'toolBox' full of fully licensed DCCs, none of their Collada exporters, as currently written, support the 'Torque' features 'as needed', out of box. This is where the 'Loader' document exposes the formatting needed and the syntax of the 'Torque' features. Separate animations, etc....'Collada' libraries[format] are what are used to bring the DTS features to the Collada shape.
Being a human-readable format[DAE], I found by editing the files directly; I could add the 'Torquesque' features/flags/however you nomenclature it.
Inside the Collada Test Forum, there should be some Threads with posted examples of DAE output.
It's comments like
If you're thinking of 'Nodes' as "mountPoints", "hub0", "EYE"....they are the 'nodes' of any Max/Ms3d/U3D program....the 'skin' deforming elements in the Scene. They're whatever your DCC is using as 'skin deformers'?? I hope this helps, if not; a little 'clarity' on what exactly you 'need' to get a shape working as DAE by posting in an existing DCC output example Thread, might be really helpful.
Now...some form of DAE assembler/viewer, as someone seemed to suggest above; might be a great 3rd party DCC tool, to help even more. I do not think you will see a 'rolled-in' tool such as ShowToolPro for DAE....as Matt's direction of the read was to allow the DCC to provide the 'finished' DAE asset for the engine to read; not seemingly to 'adjust' or 'tweak' the existing shape.
I have a strong feeling, as this 'read' developes; we'll see a DAE 'viewer'[there are many out there already]/'editor' from someone; as I stated, "It's a human-readable format", XML-parser anyone?? lol
02/18/2009 (1:23 pm)
@Thomas and other 3rd party DCC users...The 'Collada Loader' document, has all the Torque 'features' that Collada will support at this time.
While I do maintain a large 'toolBox' full of fully licensed DCCs, none of their Collada exporters, as currently written, support the 'Torque' features 'as needed', out of box. This is where the 'Loader' document exposes the formatting needed and the syntax of the 'Torque' features. Separate animations, etc....'Collada' libraries[format] are what are used to bring the DTS features to the Collada shape.
Being a human-readable format[DAE], I found by editing the files directly; I could add the 'Torquesque' features/flags/however you nomenclature it.
Inside the Collada Test Forum, there should be some Threads with posted examples of DAE output.
It's comments like
Quote:node-tree editorand needing to know 'all the nodes' of Collada, that confuse 'me'...
If you're thinking of 'Nodes' as "mountPoints", "hub0", "EYE"....they are the 'nodes' of any Max/Ms3d/U3D program....the 'skin' deforming elements in the Scene. They're whatever your DCC is using as 'skin deformers'?? I hope this helps, if not; a little 'clarity' on what exactly you 'need' to get a shape working as DAE by posting in an existing DCC output example Thread, might be really helpful.
Now...some form of DAE assembler/viewer, as someone seemed to suggest above; might be a great 3rd party DCC tool, to help even more. I do not think you will see a 'rolled-in' tool such as ShowToolPro for DAE....as Matt's direction of the read was to allow the DCC to provide the 'finished' DAE asset for the engine to read; not seemingly to 'adjust' or 'tweak' the existing shape.
I have a strong feeling, as this 'read' developes; we'll see a DAE 'viewer'[there are many out there already]/'editor' from someone; as I stated, "It's a human-readable format", XML-parser anyone?? lol
#48
That's the point. You have to think about pure artists. They dont want to read large documents full of nodes and their naming conventions. They want a tool where they can click here and click there and everything is fine. It is also a bad habit to modify the dae manually. This should be done in a new STP or a similar application.
At this time Garagegames has the single opportunity to push Torque to a Killer-Indie-Engine. Unfortunately Matt Fairfax thinks the opposite.
Conclusion: I have no chance to convince Garagegames. I said what i think but the final decision is the task of Garagegames. So i have to live with.
02/18/2009 (1:44 pm)
@Rex:Quote:
While I do maintain a large 'toolBox' full of DCCs, none of their Collada exporters, as currently written, support the 'Torque' features 'as needed', out of box.
That's the point. You have to think about pure artists. They dont want to read large documents full of nodes and their naming conventions. They want a tool where they can click here and click there and everything is fine. It is also a bad habit to modify the dae manually. This should be done in a new STP or a similar application.
At this time Garagegames has the single opportunity to push Torque to a Killer-Indie-Engine. Unfortunately Matt Fairfax thinks the opposite.
Conclusion: I have no chance to convince Garagegames. I said what i think but the final decision is the task of Garagegames. So i have to live with.
#49
That's my opinion, LOL....I don't try to change anyone's with my opinions...I just express them.
You can quote me on this: "There are very few ONE-CLICK solutions".....you will waste a great deal of valuable time continusly searching for one, much quicker to roll up the sleeves and 'git buzy'!!
Cheers!
Good luck!
02/18/2009 (1:51 pm)
Well, what I have discovered with 3D graphic arts is this; you simply cannot get away from some sort of 'coding' to get shapes working inside any 3D engine. Being an 'Arteest' alone, I feel, and not wanting to research your targeted format, is somewhat a 'pipeDream'...and 'not enough'.That's my opinion, LOL....I don't try to change anyone's with my opinions...I just express them.
You can quote me on this: "There are very few ONE-CLICK solutions".....you will waste a great deal of valuable time continusly searching for one, much quicker to roll up the sleeves and 'git buzy'!!
Cheers!
Good luck!
#50
I don't know anything about Collada except that Milkshape supports it too :) So for us non-artists this is good news.
For some reason though I thought of Chris as a muuuch older guy and not a such pretty-boy :-P
02/18/2009 (3:03 pm)
After the outstanding job Chris has done with the Milkshape Exporter I'm really happy to him on this.I don't know anything about Collada except that Milkshape supports it too :) So for us non-artists this is good news.
For some reason though I thought of Chris as a muuuch older guy and not a such pretty-boy :-P
#51
Silliness :p
It's true that you're not going to find many one-click solutions from a common DCC tool into a game engine for non-static objects, but most good game engines have visual tools for doing what needs to be done at the other end.
Collada is meant to be an intermediate format, which is used to carry all relevant data from the DCC tool to the game engine, and then there should be a visual tool for fine tuning the game-engine specific stuff without forcing an artist to open a text editor.
The only coding an artist should ever have to do is shaders, and even that is dangerous for some of them :P
02/18/2009 (3:09 pm)
Quote:
Well, what I have discovered with 3D graphic arts is this; you simply cannot get away from some sort of 'coding' to get shapes working inside any 3D engine.
Silliness :p
It's true that you're not going to find many one-click solutions from a common DCC tool into a game engine for non-static objects, but most good game engines have visual tools for doing what needs to be done at the other end.
Collada is meant to be an intermediate format, which is used to carry all relevant data from the DCC tool to the game engine, and then there should be a visual tool for fine tuning the game-engine specific stuff without forcing an artist to open a text editor.
The only coding an artist should ever have to do is shaders, and even that is dangerous for some of them :P
#52
02/18/2009 (5:25 pm)
Or Mel or Max scripting to make their lives easier and avoid repetitive tasks... 
#53
Conclusion: I have no chance to convince Garagegames. I said what i think but the final decision is the task of Garagegames. So i have to live with."
You would be surprised how much our thoughts are aligned on this topic :)
It often isn't a matter of what we want to do and get done, but priorities. Every new tool, feature, system, or fix takes resources. So just because we aren't promising something that you value, doesn't mean that we don't value it either. It means either we need to tackle other priorities first, or we aren't sure if it will make it and don't want to give false expectations.
I am managing tool development for Torque 3D. I can assure you that we have talked (more than once) about supporting a tool of the features you are requesting. We respect that you give that feedback as well. Just because we aren't responding with an "We'll get that done" doesn't mean we don't agree with you :) Again limited resources and an unlimited amount of things we can do.
What I can tell you is that I am "hoping" to get some form of tool into Torque 3D that accomplishes some of that. It is not done at this point so I cannot promise anything (that's somewhat of our new reasoning, if it isn't done, or far on it's way, we don't promise it).
With that said I agree with what you have said and again am hoping to get something of the sort in there. The most valuable thing you can do for us and for yourself is to try and constructively give us feedback about what features are most important to you in a tool or interface like that.
Again, just because we don't say it will be done and point you to what's there does not mean we have no further plans or hopes.
We are trying to be very careful about promising things, there's no need to attack us about that :) You have given good feedback in some of your posts, that is appreciate, the more constructive feedback you give the more likely we'll see the important things to you and consider them.
With that said, this right here is a huge step. This gives you a huge amount of power in some very simple scripts.
02/18/2009 (5:31 pm)
"At this time Garagegames has the single opportunity to push Torque to a Killer-Indie-Engine. Unfortunately Matt Fairfax thinks the opposite.Conclusion: I have no chance to convince Garagegames. I said what i think but the final decision is the task of Garagegames. So i have to live with."
You would be surprised how much our thoughts are aligned on this topic :)
It often isn't a matter of what we want to do and get done, but priorities. Every new tool, feature, system, or fix takes resources. So just because we aren't promising something that you value, doesn't mean that we don't value it either. It means either we need to tackle other priorities first, or we aren't sure if it will make it and don't want to give false expectations.
I am managing tool development for Torque 3D. I can assure you that we have talked (more than once) about supporting a tool of the features you are requesting. We respect that you give that feedback as well. Just because we aren't responding with an "We'll get that done" doesn't mean we don't agree with you :) Again limited resources and an unlimited amount of things we can do.
What I can tell you is that I am "hoping" to get some form of tool into Torque 3D that accomplishes some of that. It is not done at this point so I cannot promise anything (that's somewhat of our new reasoning, if it isn't done, or far on it's way, we don't promise it).
With that said I agree with what you have said and again am hoping to get something of the sort in there. The most valuable thing you can do for us and for yourself is to try and constructively give us feedback about what features are most important to you in a tool or interface like that.
Again, just because we don't say it will be done and point you to what's there does not mean we have no further plans or hopes.
We are trying to be very careful about promising things, there's no need to attack us about that :) You have given good feedback in some of your posts, that is appreciate, the more constructive feedback you give the more likely we'll see the important things to you and consider them.
With that said, this right here is a huge step. This gives you a huge amount of power in some very simple scripts.
#54
Matt's completely right here...this is a huge first step but it is only the first step. We need your help to make sure step #1 is bullet proof. Instead of going round and round arguing about the possibilities for step #16, have you actually downloaded the Torque Collada Test and tried it out? Have you looked at the docs? Have you posted models that you have had a hard time getting to work as a Collada file in Torque?
If you are unwilling to help us with step #1, why in the world should we care about your opinions/ideas on step #2 or beyond?
02/18/2009 (6:52 pm)
Quote:
With that said, this right here is a huge step. This gives you a huge amount of power in some very simple scripts.
Matt's completely right here...this is a huge first step but it is only the first step. We need your help to make sure step #1 is bullet proof. Instead of going round and round arguing about the possibilities for step #16, have you actually downloaded the Torque Collada Test and tried it out? Have you looked at the docs? Have you posted models that you have had a hard time getting to work as a Collada file in Torque?
If you are unwilling to help us with step #1, why in the world should we care about your opinions/ideas on step #2 or beyond?
#55
I've also got some nice bits of 'coding', that rename an entire skeleton to any configure I like, dangerous, yes. Dangerously fun! indeed...LOL. 'Silliness', ah; not so much!
02/18/2009 (7:07 pm)
Quote:The only coding an artist should ever have to do is shaders, and even that is dangerous for some of them :P...lol, I agree with Dave, scripting repetitive tasks in my DCC is now a common practice for this here 'Arteest'!
I've also got some nice bits of 'coding', that rename an entire skeleton to any configure I like, dangerous, yes. Dangerously fun! indeed...LOL. 'Silliness', ah; not so much!
#56
Yes, i did. The Torque Collada Test will crash when i import my dae (check out the Collada Forum).
In the case i am "unwilling" i would not write my ideas down here.
02/18/2009 (9:51 pm)
@Matt: Quote:
have you actually downloaded the Torque Collada Test and tried it out? Have you looked at the docs? Have you posted models that you have had a hard time getting to work as a Collada file in Torque?
Yes, i did. The Torque Collada Test will crash when i import my dae (check out the Collada Forum).
Quote:
If you are unwilling to help us with step #1, why in the world should we care about your opinions/ideas on step #2 or beyond?
In the case i am "unwilling" i would not write my ideas down here.
#57
I create a pack of maybe 20 trees. I need 2 submeshes (bark and foliage seperated because of the z-sorting problems of the foliage transparence). Then I have 2 more LOD stages for every sub-mesh. And every tree needs a collision mesh.
How can I create this in Lightwave, Modo or Blender? How can I tell what layer of mesh belongs to what other mesh?
A simple node-editor could help here.
But editing a lot of dae files manually is really no solution. We launch new packs almost every week at Dexsoft. We need effective tools to continue this way.
02/18/2009 (9:58 pm)
We can discuss this to death but it will not help so I come with a standard sample:I create a pack of maybe 20 trees. I need 2 submeshes (bark and foliage seperated because of the z-sorting problems of the foliage transparence). Then I have 2 more LOD stages for every sub-mesh. And every tree needs a collision mesh.
How can I create this in Lightwave, Modo or Blender? How can I tell what layer of mesh belongs to what other mesh?
A simple node-editor could help here.
But editing a lot of dae files manually is really no solution. We launch new packs almost every week at Dexsoft. We need effective tools to continue this way.
#58
Which can usually be done by using macro recorders rather than writing code.
That's cool. It doesn't change the silliness of your first statement though :P I spent 3 years watching artists get assets into Unreal without having to do any coding, so obviously it can be done with some game engines. Often it involved custom tools, but that was for game specific functionality, not game engine specific functionality.
02/18/2009 (10:24 pm)
Quote:
Or Mel or Max scripting to make their lives easier and avoid repetitive tasks...
Which can usually be done by using macro recorders rather than writing code.
Quote:
I've also got some nice bits of 'coding', that rename an entire skeleton to any configure I like, dangerous, yes. Dangerously fun! indeed...LOL. 'Silliness', ah; not so much!
That's cool. It doesn't change the silliness of your first statement though :P I spent 3 years watching artists get assets into Unreal without having to do any coding, so obviously it can be done with some game engines. Often it involved custom tools, but that was for game specific functionality, not game engine specific functionality.
#59
I'd love it too, if the tools I needed to get things done were presented to me before hand....I've found it's always a bit of a 'wait'...'waiting'!
Cheers!
02/18/2009 (10:59 pm)
Quote:A simple node-editor could help here.-sure would, wouldn't it? Ah, can you get the DexSoft coders working on this, right away? I agree, an artist such as yourself, shouldn't be doing this, lol. Perhaps check out the Collada format wiki page for such viewers or 'node-editors'....??
Quote:We need effective tools to continue this way.-again, I'd shuffle over to the Coding Department of Dexsoft and get them working on this right away....
Quote:Which can usually be done by using macro recorders rather than writing code.-lol, which is what?,actually a script being written behind the scene and executed with the button press, ;P, eh? I have my 'code' in my favorite DCC attached to buttons as well, I guess a 'recorder' script could be written as well, to provide the 'MacroRecord' function...still same deal; as a 3D artist, there's more to this than 'traditional' skill set of the 19th century 'artist'.
I'd love it too, if the tools I needed to get things done were presented to me before hand....I've found it's always a bit of a 'wait'...'waiting'!
Cheers!
#60
I will wait a while. Currently the demo even crashes when you import simple Collada cubes. And if it works better then we will see. I could also create these models without LOD and Collision at all. We provide Collada and that is ok so far.
02/18/2009 (11:07 pm)
Rex, this is a bit funny but actually really sad. Dexsoft is a small company, tiny compared to GarageGames. You think we can create the missing tools more easily than GarageGames with all the backup money from Instant Action? And keep in mind, we provide models for all the other engines as well. We cannot spent too much resources in just one workflow. I can assure you, it works much more easy in other tools to set up LOD and collision.I will wait a while. Currently the demo even crashes when you import simple Collada cubes. And if it works better then we will see. I could also create these models without LOD and Collision at all. We provide Collada and that is ok so far.
Torque 3D Owner Randy Hearn (Magnum)
I have loaded some very LARGE Collada files and have only had 2 fail, and I can't guarantee those were exported to Collada properly in the first place.
@Micheal, great work on the docs. If that is the hard work going into T3D, then no one should be disappointed!
BTW... Where do you want feedback/comments posted?:) (since this is not official yet)