New Torque3D Price Point (Discussion, NOT announcement!)
by Syllus · 01/26/2009 (9:12 am) · 66 comments
There has been a lot of whining and complaining about the news that the new Torque 3D will have a higher price point. People are proclaiming that GG has "forgotten the indie", and that "GG has let its corporate success go to it's head."
I am finally going to come out and say what I think about this. It makes me sick! I think the new engine, AND the prospect of the new price point is great! GG has gone out there and put together a huge team to diligently work full time to bring us an engine that from the looks of it, is going to be vastly superior to anything you can currently get on the "indie market" and the way I see it:
A. they deserve to profit from it
B. they NEED to profit from it... you simply cannot, cannot run a 30+ man dev team on a project when the products price point is a couple hundred dollars. This is the very reason that we have been using incomplete, outdated, and overall sub-par engines for the last several years, and why it has taken so long for GG to get where they are. They couldn't afford it because they were practically giving us there products! I am personally looking forward to the new rates of development / fixes and quality of products that will be possible with a higher price point.
C. If a price point of $1000 (guessing this based on speculative posts in the past, no idea what it will actually be) is a major issue and makes you not want to buy the engine, then I am sorry but you are not an "indie developer"... you are a hobbyist. Anyone who is developing something with a real intention of marketing it and selling it would jump on the chance to get such a powerful tool for only $1000. If you cannot justify $1000 for your main and primary tool then odds are you do not need it... you can buy TGEA for a few hundred dollars (the hobbyist engine) and produce the product you are planning (and probably still not max out the engines capabilities) just fine.
I am not saying this to be mean... I am just being realistic. I personally am extremely excited to see this kind of quality and dedication in the new GG engine and am equally excited to know that with a higher price point they will be able to continue this level of development and future support / improvements at a rate that is helpful and useful to us.
Granted if the price gets too high then it could be a major factor and alienate anyone without investors or a large pool of capital but in a realistic view of things, a $1000 license fee IS within the indie cost range... if you want a few hundred dollar price point then you need to be realistic and admit that you are working on a hobbyist level, not an indie, and buy the appropriate tools for the job.
Also granted that a higher price point demands higher quality and more capability... which we are seeing the beginnings of first hand with these blogs! :) (Looks great guys keep it up!)
What would be really nice would be to see something along the lines of:
1. TGB hobbyist 2d engine: $250 indie, $1,250 commercial (current prices)
2. TGEA hobbyist 3d engine: $300 indie $1,500 commercial (current prices)
3. Torque3D true indie 3d engine: $1,000 indie, $10,000 - $20,000 commercial (if you need the commercial license then you can defiantly afford it so don't complain!)
With the differentiating factor on indie vs. commercial being revenue as it is now... even if they lower the amount needed before requiring a commercial license. IMO a gimped engine is worthless regardless of how cheap it is... prime example is Unity 3D... sure you can get an indie license for like $200... but what good is a modern day game engine if it can't do real time shadows, can't render to texture, can't publish to windows etc? And a "with source code" vs. "without source code" is horrible as well... because there is no way the engine developers can possibly think of every feature / capability that the user will need, for instance the project I am working on now, requires the ability to run on walls and even ceilings... this flat out would not be possible in GG engines if we did not have access to the source. So I am really hoping that they stick to their current indie/commercial differentiating model. (**Shameless hint, hint!**) :)
Anyhow sorry for the long rant... I just wanted to say that because I have seen so much whining and "GG has forgotten the indie" type posts lately. They haven't forgotten the indie... IMO they are just now, truly starting to support the indie... by finally being able to devote the necessary time and resources to making us these fantastic tools with the capability that a game with true hopes of success would need! And fact is, development and support cost money, the proof of this is in the previous engines and their development tracks, from GG... when they didn't have many resources to throw at it, vs. the way Torque3D seems to be going. As long as they keep the indie license on Torque3D "within reason" (and don't gimp the indie version) and they continue to sell TGB and TGEA for the hobbyist devs... Then I personally will back them with 100% support (and my credit card).
Note: that I am not writing this to start a flame war... and hope it is not seen that way. I simply want people to stop and think about the realistic truths behind it before they complain and condemn.
I am finally going to come out and say what I think about this. It makes me sick! I think the new engine, AND the prospect of the new price point is great! GG has gone out there and put together a huge team to diligently work full time to bring us an engine that from the looks of it, is going to be vastly superior to anything you can currently get on the "indie market" and the way I see it:
A. they deserve to profit from it
B. they NEED to profit from it... you simply cannot, cannot run a 30+ man dev team on a project when the products price point is a couple hundred dollars. This is the very reason that we have been using incomplete, outdated, and overall sub-par engines for the last several years, and why it has taken so long for GG to get where they are. They couldn't afford it because they were practically giving us there products! I am personally looking forward to the new rates of development / fixes and quality of products that will be possible with a higher price point.
C. If a price point of $1000 (guessing this based on speculative posts in the past, no idea what it will actually be) is a major issue and makes you not want to buy the engine, then I am sorry but you are not an "indie developer"... you are a hobbyist. Anyone who is developing something with a real intention of marketing it and selling it would jump on the chance to get such a powerful tool for only $1000. If you cannot justify $1000 for your main and primary tool then odds are you do not need it... you can buy TGEA for a few hundred dollars (the hobbyist engine) and produce the product you are planning (and probably still not max out the engines capabilities) just fine.
I am not saying this to be mean... I am just being realistic. I personally am extremely excited to see this kind of quality and dedication in the new GG engine and am equally excited to know that with a higher price point they will be able to continue this level of development and future support / improvements at a rate that is helpful and useful to us.
Granted if the price gets too high then it could be a major factor and alienate anyone without investors or a large pool of capital but in a realistic view of things, a $1000 license fee IS within the indie cost range... if you want a few hundred dollar price point then you need to be realistic and admit that you are working on a hobbyist level, not an indie, and buy the appropriate tools for the job.
Also granted that a higher price point demands higher quality and more capability... which we are seeing the beginnings of first hand with these blogs! :) (Looks great guys keep it up!)
What would be really nice would be to see something along the lines of:
1. TGB hobbyist 2d engine: $250 indie, $1,250 commercial (current prices)
2. TGEA hobbyist 3d engine: $300 indie $1,500 commercial (current prices)
3. Torque3D true indie 3d engine: $1,000 indie, $10,000 - $20,000 commercial (if you need the commercial license then you can defiantly afford it so don't complain!)
With the differentiating factor on indie vs. commercial being revenue as it is now... even if they lower the amount needed before requiring a commercial license. IMO a gimped engine is worthless regardless of how cheap it is... prime example is Unity 3D... sure you can get an indie license for like $200... but what good is a modern day game engine if it can't do real time shadows, can't render to texture, can't publish to windows etc? And a "with source code" vs. "without source code" is horrible as well... because there is no way the engine developers can possibly think of every feature / capability that the user will need, for instance the project I am working on now, requires the ability to run on walls and even ceilings... this flat out would not be possible in GG engines if we did not have access to the source. So I am really hoping that they stick to their current indie/commercial differentiating model. (**Shameless hint, hint!**) :)
Anyhow sorry for the long rant... I just wanted to say that because I have seen so much whining and "GG has forgotten the indie" type posts lately. They haven't forgotten the indie... IMO they are just now, truly starting to support the indie... by finally being able to devote the necessary time and resources to making us these fantastic tools with the capability that a game with true hopes of success would need! And fact is, development and support cost money, the proof of this is in the previous engines and their development tracks, from GG... when they didn't have many resources to throw at it, vs. the way Torque3D seems to be going. As long as they keep the indie license on Torque3D "within reason" (and don't gimp the indie version) and they continue to sell TGB and TGEA for the hobbyist devs... Then I personally will back them with 100% support (and my credit card).
Note: that I am not writing this to start a flame war... and hope it is not seen that way. I simply want people to stop and think about the realistic truths behind it before they complain and condemn.
About the author
#42
I would do the same thing Id, Epic, and Crytek did. MAKE SOME FREAKIN GAMES! Believe it or not, you can still make money by developing games these days.
Once you've got a few recent, professional-quality titles under your belt, you'll also be in a better position to charge more money for your tech.
I'm not trying to prove a point here, just replying to your question.
just my $1000 worth
01/26/2009 (6:20 pm)
Quote:
An interesting exercise for you guys would be to ask yourself the question, "If it were my business, how would I address the problem?".
I would do the same thing Id, Epic, and Crytek did. MAKE SOME FREAKIN GAMES! Believe it or not, you can still make money by developing games these days.
Once you've got a few recent, professional-quality titles under your belt, you'll also be in a better position to charge more money for your tech.
I'm not trying to prove a point here, just replying to your question.
just my $1000 worth
#43
01/26/2009 (6:37 pm)
I would say that Legions, Marble Blast Online/Ultra, and RokkitBall are all professional-quality titles even if they aren't professionally sized. 
#45
I'm guessing the final license price will reflect what you want to do with T3D. And yes, I'm sure when T3D is ready, we will all agree it will be worth the price.
These guys are selling (with T3D) the ability to have your own web portal (your own plug in architecture) to deliver your games direct to consumer... with out going through instant action. Or, If you want... you could go through Steam or Instant Action. If you do have a finished game this is worth a ton.
Perhaps its a blend of features and groups that will determine the final price. Either way I dont think anyone else can touch what T3D will offer. Good job Garage Games!
01/26/2009 (7:39 pm)
I'd say the guys and gals at garage games are very smart. I think Matt hit the nail on the head. GG is aware that there are many different groups that will want access to T3D code base.I'm guessing the final license price will reflect what you want to do with T3D. And yes, I'm sure when T3D is ready, we will all agree it will be worth the price.
These guys are selling (with T3D) the ability to have your own web portal (your own plug in architecture) to deliver your games direct to consumer... with out going through instant action. Or, If you want... you could go through Steam or Instant Action. If you do have a finished game this is worth a ton.
Perhaps its a blend of features and groups that will determine the final price. Either way I dont think anyone else can touch what T3D will offer. Good job Garage Games!
#46
01/26/2009 (7:49 pm)
$1000 is fine, unless that is per project. 
#47
I havent said anything about the pricing issue. I can say I'm willing to pay $1000 for the engine as long as it allows me to run my current TGE TorqueScript code and makes me easy to port (or can handle) my TGE code changes.
To be honest, I would like GG to consider $700 as the T3D price and take the pricing scheme of other SW packages like Photoshop, Max or Office. That is, they always cost the same for any new version (Photoshop like $700, Max like $3000, Office like $500). Anybody can buy the new version for the full price but older users have the chance to upgrade.
So, any new user may pay $700 for T3D but any person which already paid $300 for TGEA may pay $400 more and get the T3D engine and all their upgrades until the next Torque version comes out. The next Torque version may cost $700 again but users of T3D should pay $400 again for the update. Of course you may still sell the TGEA license for $300.
Of course that leaves the problem of what to do with older techs. So, do what ID Software does. Open the source code so anybody can take from there or, if you still want to profit from that engine, charge a minimal $50 learning license which will help anybody to test the -little- engine (we know is a beast inside) before jumping to the newer ones. In this case this learning license should come with a disclaimer that no upgrades will be done to that version.
One benefit is that GG will solve the problem of people(idiots like me) asking for upgrades to older technologies (TGE) and they can focus 85% in the development of new versions which may come each... say 18 months and keep the other 10% of the time to fix T3D, fix bugs in TGEA 5% and and say you stop development on TGE.
Nothing else from me.
Guimo (The Indie) :) (you made my day)
01/26/2009 (7:59 pm)
Hey Matt! Thank you for throwing me the flower :)... Indie... sounds nice... but I have always considered myself an experieced Hobbyist.I havent said anything about the pricing issue. I can say I'm willing to pay $1000 for the engine as long as it allows me to run my current TGE TorqueScript code and makes me easy to port (or can handle) my TGE code changes.
To be honest, I would like GG to consider $700 as the T3D price and take the pricing scheme of other SW packages like Photoshop, Max or Office. That is, they always cost the same for any new version (Photoshop like $700, Max like $3000, Office like $500). Anybody can buy the new version for the full price but older users have the chance to upgrade.
So, any new user may pay $700 for T3D but any person which already paid $300 for TGEA may pay $400 more and get the T3D engine and all their upgrades until the next Torque version comes out. The next Torque version may cost $700 again but users of T3D should pay $400 again for the update. Of course you may still sell the TGEA license for $300.
Of course that leaves the problem of what to do with older techs. So, do what ID Software does. Open the source code so anybody can take from there or, if you still want to profit from that engine, charge a minimal $50 learning license which will help anybody to test the -little- engine (we know is a beast inside) before jumping to the newer ones. In this case this learning license should come with a disclaimer that no upgrades will be done to that version.
One benefit is that GG will solve the problem of people(idiots like me) asking for upgrades to older technologies (TGE) and they can focus 85% in the development of new versions which may come each... say 18 months and keep the other 10% of the time to fix T3D, fix bugs in TGEA 5% and and say you stop development on TGE.
Nothing else from me.
Guimo (The Indie) :) (you made my day)
#48
01/26/2009 (9:58 pm)
@Matt:Quote:Ultimately the problem with a "keep them honest via EULA" scheme is that there are a lot of people out there who are willing to "overlook" the "non-commercial" part of the EULA to save money. We've seen this very clearly in our own indie vs commercial licensing already (Brett talked about this a bit in his blog). When you have an identical product with multiple price points it is very common to see people just buy at the low price point to "evaluate the product" with the full intention of upgrading later but then they never do (unless we harass them).Well then, surely the problem is that either the EULA doesn't have enough teeth, or you guys aren't putting enough effort into policing it. I have so far been pretty relaxed about the possibility of a price rise, but seeing this sorry excuse for a justification just makes me mad. If you can't enforce the terms of the EULA, what makes you think that the situation will be any better when the prices are even higher? Even holding back tools or features at the lower price points will not necessarily help, as it is only a matter of time before there is a torrent containing the whole package. And what's to stop people using that to release a commercial game if the EULA has no teeth?
Quote:An interesting exercise for you guys would be to ask yourself the question, "If it were my business, how would I address the problem?"I would start by recognizing that a EULA that goes unenforced will, sooner or later, kill the business no matter what else is done. Believing that a feature-delta is the solution to your problems is a bit like the recording industry believing that DRM is the solution to theirs.
#49
01/27/2009 (1:22 am)
Whatever the price of new engine is going to be, my suggestion is to give current owners of Torque product a 50% price cut, so all new customers can pay full price whatever it maybe, but for those of us that have been here 9 years and supported you by building gamepacks and buying 1-2 of your engines asking us for 1000$ is silly, you need to make sure we get better price then someone who never bought anything from you before. For all support we have given you and the products we have bought etc you put any price you want but you give us 50% of that price and most will be happy ;) that is the best solution.. 
#50
As I said i think many hobbyists have given a great contribute to Torque and some of them have grown becoming real indie devs...
So probably from my side I will have not problems in paying $1000 (I hope less for upgrading from TGEA) for T3D if after evaluating it I will find great editor improvements, easiest art pipeline, and new features added in...
I wanna just patrocinate again the idea of a hobbyists' license of T3D with no limitations about features but a "cannot publish" statement in the hobbyists' eula (if your gonna to publish upgrade at least to indie, this seems really reasonable!)..
The reason I really care about this is that I really don't wanna see the community shrink down and I really believe hobbyists can still give a lot to it.
Keep up the good work and enjoy it :-D
JoZ
01/27/2009 (6:37 am)
Ehy guys, in the past I've posted some concerned comment because a bit concerned about the attitude (not-so-nice) against hobbyists I felt in some GG employes' post..As I said i think many hobbyists have given a great contribute to Torque and some of them have grown becoming real indie devs...
So probably from my side I will have not problems in paying $1000 (I hope less for upgrading from TGEA) for T3D if after evaluating it I will find great editor improvements, easiest art pipeline, and new features added in...
I wanna just patrocinate again the idea of a hobbyists' license of T3D with no limitations about features but a "cannot publish" statement in the hobbyists' eula (if your gonna to publish upgrade at least to indie, this seems really reasonable!)..
The reason I really care about this is that I really don't wanna see the community shrink down and I really believe hobbyists can still give a lot to it.
Keep up the good work and enjoy it :-D
JoZ
#51
Ok let's say Mr.X get the basic version of T3D, access to source and rights of pulishing but limited features... are U sure to be in control of what will be the content of all the future posts and resources to be sure he will have not access to them implementing the lacking features reading through them? Or if the commnity posts his own implementation of a "lacking in basic version" features?
Or even better...
Mr.X get the T3D basic with source and pulishing rights, then he will steal from a torrent the ful featured version o T3D and ship a game... Do you think will be easy find out he profit of that trick? Or would it be easiest find out he has published a T3D based game but he has not publishing rights?
I don't think... staying with the EULA delta idea is much better from my POV...
01/27/2009 (7:03 am)
Another good point for EULA DELTA vs FEATURES DELTA is this...Ok let's say Mr.X get the basic version of T3D, access to source and rights of pulishing but limited features... are U sure to be in control of what will be the content of all the future posts and resources to be sure he will have not access to them implementing the lacking features reading through them? Or if the commnity posts his own implementation of a "lacking in basic version" features?
Or even better...
Mr.X get the T3D basic with source and pulishing rights, then he will steal from a torrent the ful featured version o T3D and ship a game... Do you think will be easy find out he profit of that trick? Or would it be easiest find out he has published a T3D based game but he has not publishing rights?
I don't think... staying with the EULA delta idea is much better from my POV...
#52
I don't agree with this though. The problem with most publishers is that they take your game's license with them, so anyone can make a sequel, and most portals like BigFish are for more casual games and can be hard to contact. Also, I think games should have the maximum price of $30 simply because higher is insane, and most people won't buy the game till it drops to sub 30 dollars. I'd agree if you said a hobbyist is someone who plays with the engine and doesn't try to polish their games well, or just makes free games. Free games are definitely hobbyist, unless it's a first game and you don't see it as selling material. I don't think that the developer comes down to how he's published, but how he develops.
01/27/2009 (7:38 am)
@first post(syllus): I agree totally, I also find it to be a problem that too many people are just making hobbyist games (free games) when they could do something bigger. Most hobbyists don't take full potential of the engine, for example IBB and OBB is being made on the Unreal Tournament engine, but it's such a simple game that it doesn't need that engine...the physics are very simple and could be done on a cheaper engine like C4 or even Torque.Quote:IMO an indie developer is still developing a game that they plan on obtaining full market distribution with and bringing in a revenue to support there company... not just placed on a shopping cart on a website and sold to a handful of gamers at $20 a pop. To me that is hobbyist development... not indie.
I don't agree with this though. The problem with most publishers is that they take your game's license with them, so anyone can make a sequel, and most portals like BigFish are for more casual games and can be hard to contact. Also, I think games should have the maximum price of $30 simply because higher is insane, and most people won't buy the game till it drops to sub 30 dollars. I'd agree if you said a hobbyist is someone who plays with the engine and doesn't try to polish their games well, or just makes free games. Free games are definitely hobbyist, unless it's a first game and you don't see it as selling material. I don't think that the developer comes down to how he's published, but how he develops.
#53
I think the the operative words in Mich's post are IS and WILL. When those words have been changed to HAS and DOES. I will consider putting more money into GG products.
I purchased Torque X about the time Mich came on board and I had high (maybe too high) hopes that I would see a significant improvement to the TX docs sometime in 2008. It's now 2009 and not only have the TX docs not really grown much, if at all, but I'm also faced with the looming spectre that the license I bought will be turned on its head "sometime" in the "near" future.
I'm not trying to put down Mich, I've seen him releasing things on a very regular basis since he started and I can see that the bulk of his concentration has been on TGEA which is fine... He's just one guy, I don't expect him to "DO EVERYTHING" all at once. Just don't expect me to put out more dough until things have progressed passed the point of "in the works" or "being done" to done and available.
01/27/2009 (12:16 pm)
Quote:
Torque Owner
01/26/2009 (6:38 pm) @Frogger - Documentation is being written from from scratch, and will be extremely polished and contain highly useful information. It will also receive massive documentation updates throughout the year, and I'm not talking simple grammar cleanup.
I think the the operative words in Mich's post are IS and WILL. When those words have been changed to HAS and DOES. I will consider putting more money into GG products.
I purchased Torque X about the time Mich came on board and I had high (maybe too high) hopes that I would see a significant improvement to the TX docs sometime in 2008. It's now 2009 and not only have the TX docs not really grown much, if at all, but I'm also faced with the looming spectre that the license I bought will be turned on its head "sometime" in the "near" future.
I'm not trying to put down Mich, I've seen him releasing things on a very regular basis since he started and I can see that the bulk of his concentration has been on TGEA which is fine... He's just one guy, I don't expect him to "DO EVERYTHING" all at once. Just don't expect me to put out more dough until things have progressed passed the point of "in the works" or "being done" to done and available.
#54
It would be nice to get something off the price at least.
Although if they don't I might be able to
1) upgrade to TGEA
2) upgrade to T3D
3) save 10 dollars...?
01/27/2009 (5:42 pm)
I really don't care what happens at this point, as long as they add an upgrade from TGE to TGEA, because at this point if I upgrade I will probably wait and go for T3D -- unless the price is outside my range.It would be nice to get something off the price at least.
Although if they don't I might be able to
1) upgrade to TGEA
2) upgrade to T3D
3) save 10 dollars...?
#55
01/27/2009 (5:51 pm)
they have a upgrade from tge to tgea lol. just put tgea in your account and it will auto update and take what you payed for tge out of the $295. to bad cant send emails so i don't have to spam this here.
#56
01/27/2009 (6:18 pm)
Only one more blog until this one gets bumped out into "page not found" land. 
#57
01/27/2009 (7:52 pm)
Crazy! 
#58
Should not be an issue anymore.
/end discussion hijack
01/28/2009 (10:25 am)
Quote:Only one more blog until this one gets bumped out into "page not found" land.
Should not be an issue anymore.
/end discussion hijack
#60
01/29/2009 (8:17 am)
@ArmedGeek - Hahaha. I'll pass that along =)
Associate Matt Fairfax
Night Heron Games
1) Beginners - These are people with little to no experience making games and are interested purely in learning. Their goals are quite diverse: some want to just make a game, some want to ship a game, some want to get a job in the industry making games. However, the common thread among these users is that they are mostly focusing on just learning. These users in general are willing to spend the least amount of money since they haven't yet grasped the value of what tools, code, content, and documentation can offer them (out of simple lack of experience).
2) Hobbyist - These are the weekend tinkerers. They view game development as just another hobby. They could be working on a car, watching football, or painting just as easily and view game development as something that fits that role in their life. They usually have some vague idea that they might like to ship a game "someday" and make some money off of it (or fame) but in general they would be perfectly happy if the only people who play their games are themselves and their families. Interestingly, these customers are usually willing to spend a fair amount of money (look at how much they would spend if they were rebuilding cars in their garage) but generally like to ease into spending that money with lower initial investments until they are sure they like the hobby.
3) Aspiring Developers - The "Aspiring Developer" is similar in a lot of ways to the "Beginner" except that they are totally focused on going somewhere with game development. They can be somewhat inexperienced with game development but are usually fairly tech savvy (like web developers) and are interested in pursuing a career in game development and are chasing after that goal hard. These developers are the ones that sit down and "study" game development every free night they have and work as hard as they would if they were taking night courses at the community college. We separate them out from the "Beginners" because they are more focused, dedicated, and usually are more willing to spend money if it can speed them on their way to a new career.
4) Indies - Sure...it can be argued that 1-3 are "indies" because they are "independently" funding their game development but when you hear GarageGames talk about "Indies" these days what we are referring to is that rare individual with the drive, passion, and hard work to actually ship a game. These developers have a bit of experience and some idea of how much work it actually takes to get a game done and out to the public. They are determined to get it done and pour their heart, soul, and free time into it. Their goal is to ship a game, then ship another game, and another until they are able to live off of the revenue. These developers are usually smart enough to know that they will have to work with others (even if they are contractors) to get the job done. It can be hard at times to pick the "Indie" out of a crowd of "Beginners, Hobbyist, and Aspiring Developers (BHAD's) but you can usually spot them (Guimo is a great example). In general, "Indies" know the value of tools, code, content, and documentation and are willing to pay for them.
5) Industry Pros - This is a broad category but in general it covers any game developer who is content working for studios that get their funding primarily from publishers and investors. They usually have larger budgets and shorter time lines and are willing to invest heavily in technology and companies that can demonstrably speed up their time to market. There are some Industry Pros who are interested in getting out of the "industry" and making a living making their own games independently of the publisher funding but these guys are really "Indies" and not "Industry Pros".
Obviously these are broad categories and not perfect. There are widely varying ranges of experience, passion, focus, dedication, and funding across the game development world but in general these categories have stood our models the best so far.
One thing I did want to make clear is that being called a "Hobbyist", "Beginner", or "Aspiring Developer" is not intended as a slight to anyone. Rather it is just an attempt to get a clearer idea of what your goals are and what you want out of our products and community. I honestly think that, as a community and as an industry, we should better refine our understanding of what an "Indie" is and stop using it as a broad stroke to mean "anyone who doesn't work in the industry". It cheapens the accomplishments of people like Andy Schatz and of studios like Sickhead and Maxgaming. It also makes it more confusing when we are trying to talk about our needs and goals.