New Torque3D Price Point (Discussion, NOT announcement!)
by Syllus · 01/26/2009 (9:12 am) · 66 comments
There has been a lot of whining and complaining about the news that the new Torque 3D will have a higher price point. People are proclaiming that GG has "forgotten the indie", and that "GG has let its corporate success go to it's head."
I am finally going to come out and say what I think about this. It makes me sick! I think the new engine, AND the prospect of the new price point is great! GG has gone out there and put together a huge team to diligently work full time to bring us an engine that from the looks of it, is going to be vastly superior to anything you can currently get on the "indie market" and the way I see it:
A. they deserve to profit from it
B. they NEED to profit from it... you simply cannot, cannot run a 30+ man dev team on a project when the products price point is a couple hundred dollars. This is the very reason that we have been using incomplete, outdated, and overall sub-par engines for the last several years, and why it has taken so long for GG to get where they are. They couldn't afford it because they were practically giving us there products! I am personally looking forward to the new rates of development / fixes and quality of products that will be possible with a higher price point.
C. If a price point of $1000 (guessing this based on speculative posts in the past, no idea what it will actually be) is a major issue and makes you not want to buy the engine, then I am sorry but you are not an "indie developer"... you are a hobbyist. Anyone who is developing something with a real intention of marketing it and selling it would jump on the chance to get such a powerful tool for only $1000. If you cannot justify $1000 for your main and primary tool then odds are you do not need it... you can buy TGEA for a few hundred dollars (the hobbyist engine) and produce the product you are planning (and probably still not max out the engines capabilities) just fine.
I am not saying this to be mean... I am just being realistic. I personally am extremely excited to see this kind of quality and dedication in the new GG engine and am equally excited to know that with a higher price point they will be able to continue this level of development and future support / improvements at a rate that is helpful and useful to us.
Granted if the price gets too high then it could be a major factor and alienate anyone without investors or a large pool of capital but in a realistic view of things, a $1000 license fee IS within the indie cost range... if you want a few hundred dollar price point then you need to be realistic and admit that you are working on a hobbyist level, not an indie, and buy the appropriate tools for the job.
Also granted that a higher price point demands higher quality and more capability... which we are seeing the beginnings of first hand with these blogs! :) (Looks great guys keep it up!)
What would be really nice would be to see something along the lines of:
1. TGB hobbyist 2d engine: $250 indie, $1,250 commercial (current prices)
2. TGEA hobbyist 3d engine: $300 indie $1,500 commercial (current prices)
3. Torque3D true indie 3d engine: $1,000 indie, $10,000 - $20,000 commercial (if you need the commercial license then you can defiantly afford it so don't complain!)
With the differentiating factor on indie vs. commercial being revenue as it is now... even if they lower the amount needed before requiring a commercial license. IMO a gimped engine is worthless regardless of how cheap it is... prime example is Unity 3D... sure you can get an indie license for like $200... but what good is a modern day game engine if it can't do real time shadows, can't render to texture, can't publish to windows etc? And a "with source code" vs. "without source code" is horrible as well... because there is no way the engine developers can possibly think of every feature / capability that the user will need, for instance the project I am working on now, requires the ability to run on walls and even ceilings... this flat out would not be possible in GG engines if we did not have access to the source. So I am really hoping that they stick to their current indie/commercial differentiating model. (**Shameless hint, hint!**) :)
Anyhow sorry for the long rant... I just wanted to say that because I have seen so much whining and "GG has forgotten the indie" type posts lately. They haven't forgotten the indie... IMO they are just now, truly starting to support the indie... by finally being able to devote the necessary time and resources to making us these fantastic tools with the capability that a game with true hopes of success would need! And fact is, development and support cost money, the proof of this is in the previous engines and their development tracks, from GG... when they didn't have many resources to throw at it, vs. the way Torque3D seems to be going. As long as they keep the indie license on Torque3D "within reason" (and don't gimp the indie version) and they continue to sell TGB and TGEA for the hobbyist devs... Then I personally will back them with 100% support (and my credit card).
Note: that I am not writing this to start a flame war... and hope it is not seen that way. I simply want people to stop and think about the realistic truths behind it before they complain and condemn.
I am finally going to come out and say what I think about this. It makes me sick! I think the new engine, AND the prospect of the new price point is great! GG has gone out there and put together a huge team to diligently work full time to bring us an engine that from the looks of it, is going to be vastly superior to anything you can currently get on the "indie market" and the way I see it:
A. they deserve to profit from it
B. they NEED to profit from it... you simply cannot, cannot run a 30+ man dev team on a project when the products price point is a couple hundred dollars. This is the very reason that we have been using incomplete, outdated, and overall sub-par engines for the last several years, and why it has taken so long for GG to get where they are. They couldn't afford it because they were practically giving us there products! I am personally looking forward to the new rates of development / fixes and quality of products that will be possible with a higher price point.
C. If a price point of $1000 (guessing this based on speculative posts in the past, no idea what it will actually be) is a major issue and makes you not want to buy the engine, then I am sorry but you are not an "indie developer"... you are a hobbyist. Anyone who is developing something with a real intention of marketing it and selling it would jump on the chance to get such a powerful tool for only $1000. If you cannot justify $1000 for your main and primary tool then odds are you do not need it... you can buy TGEA for a few hundred dollars (the hobbyist engine) and produce the product you are planning (and probably still not max out the engines capabilities) just fine.
I am not saying this to be mean... I am just being realistic. I personally am extremely excited to see this kind of quality and dedication in the new GG engine and am equally excited to know that with a higher price point they will be able to continue this level of development and future support / improvements at a rate that is helpful and useful to us.
Granted if the price gets too high then it could be a major factor and alienate anyone without investors or a large pool of capital but in a realistic view of things, a $1000 license fee IS within the indie cost range... if you want a few hundred dollar price point then you need to be realistic and admit that you are working on a hobbyist level, not an indie, and buy the appropriate tools for the job.
Also granted that a higher price point demands higher quality and more capability... which we are seeing the beginnings of first hand with these blogs! :) (Looks great guys keep it up!)
What would be really nice would be to see something along the lines of:
1. TGB hobbyist 2d engine: $250 indie, $1,250 commercial (current prices)
2. TGEA hobbyist 3d engine: $300 indie $1,500 commercial (current prices)
3. Torque3D true indie 3d engine: $1,000 indie, $10,000 - $20,000 commercial (if you need the commercial license then you can defiantly afford it so don't complain!)
With the differentiating factor on indie vs. commercial being revenue as it is now... even if they lower the amount needed before requiring a commercial license. IMO a gimped engine is worthless regardless of how cheap it is... prime example is Unity 3D... sure you can get an indie license for like $200... but what good is a modern day game engine if it can't do real time shadows, can't render to texture, can't publish to windows etc? And a "with source code" vs. "without source code" is horrible as well... because there is no way the engine developers can possibly think of every feature / capability that the user will need, for instance the project I am working on now, requires the ability to run on walls and even ceilings... this flat out would not be possible in GG engines if we did not have access to the source. So I am really hoping that they stick to their current indie/commercial differentiating model. (**Shameless hint, hint!**) :)
Anyhow sorry for the long rant... I just wanted to say that because I have seen so much whining and "GG has forgotten the indie" type posts lately. They haven't forgotten the indie... IMO they are just now, truly starting to support the indie... by finally being able to devote the necessary time and resources to making us these fantastic tools with the capability that a game with true hopes of success would need! And fact is, development and support cost money, the proof of this is in the previous engines and their development tracks, from GG... when they didn't have many resources to throw at it, vs. the way Torque3D seems to be going. As long as they keep the indie license on Torque3D "within reason" (and don't gimp the indie version) and they continue to sell TGB and TGEA for the hobbyist devs... Then I personally will back them with 100% support (and my credit card).
Note: that I am not writing this to start a flame war... and hope it is not seen that way. I simply want people to stop and think about the realistic truths behind it before they complain and condemn.
About the author
#22
In any case, from what I understand, GG might be providing a different entry price point for "hobbyists" than their indie price. Personally I think people will be pleasantly surprised by T3D.
01/26/2009 (11:53 am)
Quote:I could just as easily turn your question around on you and ask "...but what good is a modern day game engine without a true scenegraph, if you can't develop and deploy on Linux, if the physics implementation can infinite-loop the engine, if you can't load and use a .obj or a .x or a .3ds, if you can't script in Python?"I assume you're referring to vehicle physics here? The vehicle update does indeed have the possibility of infinitely looping as it exists (it is a while loop with a for loop inside iterating over all the collision points it found...it iterates the outer while loop until it considers the collision "resolved" but in many cases, the movement it generates is too small, and will never resolve. You can pretty much safely remove the while loop, and get basically the same results as you would with it, but with a general improvement in speed and no chance of it infinitely looping).
In any case, from what I understand, GG might be providing a different entry price point for "hobbyists" than their indie price. Personally I think people will be pleasantly surprised by T3D.
#23
I am more excited about T3D then I have been about any GG release in some time now. :)
01/26/2009 (11:56 am)
@ Ross: I do not know how they plan to price or license it... but I do know that I am looking forward to finding out. From what I have seen so far T3D is looking very impressive and even though we have only seen the graphical aspect of it so far... with the major advancements we are seeing there, I am confident that we will see many usability and stability enhancements as well.I am more excited about T3D then I have been about any GG release in some time now. :)
#24
@Scott: Never apologize if you disagree and keep it civil :)
@GG: Consider the economy, and consider a hobbyist sliding-scale option. I think the takeaway here is that it allows you to still make money from hobbyist's while also getting more for the extra effort and overhead that you currently have.
@Everyone: I hear more and more in threads about pricing the work that people have put into the engine. It's undoubtedly true that the engine has benefited over the years from this, but it is also true the other way around that we have benefited from a very inexpensive engine with friendly terms and source code.
It's not that the community contributions don't matter- it's just that GG is so much larger now, and they are no longer four guys founding a start-up and willing to trim their lifestyles to bring us a product. In order to stay competitive in this engine space, they have to pay people market-value for their talents, and that costs a lot more money than what Jeff Tunnel and the others were paying themselves back in the day.
What I'm trying to say is that prices will inevitably go up, and instead of the reactions from a handful of people in the community here that are just insulting and unprofessional, it is far better to try and work with GG to hammer out better options.
And if they do not listen, then use the Power Of The Wallet. But by all means, let's try our best to keep it civil here regardless of our choices.
01/26/2009 (12:11 pm)
@Syllus: I agree with a lot of what you said, but I also feel that GG could still throw the hobbyist a bone with some sliding scale "non-commercial" pricing, sort of in the same vein as the indie license is now. I don't think that would hurt them in the long (or short) run, as it gives a low barrier to entry still, and also allows for GG to get more revenue from the hobbyists that do turn indie or full-on commercial.@Scott: Never apologize if you disagree and keep it civil :)
@GG: Consider the economy, and consider a hobbyist sliding-scale option. I think the takeaway here is that it allows you to still make money from hobbyist's while also getting more for the extra effort and overhead that you currently have.
@Everyone: I hear more and more in threads about pricing the work that people have put into the engine. It's undoubtedly true that the engine has benefited over the years from this, but it is also true the other way around that we have benefited from a very inexpensive engine with friendly terms and source code.
It's not that the community contributions don't matter- it's just that GG is so much larger now, and they are no longer four guys founding a start-up and willing to trim their lifestyles to bring us a product. In order to stay competitive in this engine space, they have to pay people market-value for their talents, and that costs a lot more money than what Jeff Tunnel and the others were paying themselves back in the day.
What I'm trying to say is that prices will inevitably go up, and instead of the reactions from a handful of people in the community here that are just insulting and unprofessional, it is far better to try and work with GG to hammer out better options.
And if they do not listen, then use the Power Of The Wallet. But by all means, let's try our best to keep it civil here regardless of our choices.
#25
Syllus, I think it is safe to assume that even the commercial price of Torque 3D will be well under $10,000 to $20,000. At that price, a commercial studio only needs to have 10 to 15 licenses before it makes economic sense to license the Unreal or Source engine. The quality of documentation and support would need to be quite substantial to warrant that price point.
On a side note, what happened to all the upgrade prices/discounts? When the new site switched, all of the upgrade pricing disappeared. Was there a warning that I missed?
01/26/2009 (12:27 pm)
Quote:What would be really nice would be to see something along the lines of:
1. TGB hobbyist 2d engine: $250 indie, $1,250 commercial (current prices)
2. TGEA hobbyist 3d engine: $300 indie $1,500 commercial (current prices)
3. Torque3D true indie 3d engine: $1,000 indie, $10,000 - $20,000 commercial (if you need the commercial license then you can defiantly afford it so don't complain!)
Syllus, I think it is safe to assume that even the commercial price of Torque 3D will be well under $10,000 to $20,000. At that price, a commercial studio only needs to have 10 to 15 licenses before it makes economic sense to license the Unreal or Source engine. The quality of documentation and support would need to be quite substantial to warrant that price point.
On a side note, what happened to all the upgrade prices/discounts? When the new site switched, all of the upgrade pricing disappeared. Was there a warning that I missed?
#26
joe that not very nice ether you think because you own the engine already that i don't know nothing about the engine. i have been looking up so much info and messing with the demo for a month in mater of fact just by doing that i might know more then you unlikely though as there's just so much out there but i know allot. i been looking for a engine for months now and i have decided on tgea. i know good games can be made with tgea and tge i just like the way things are turning around on the gg site. i was here be for they change the new site i like the old site better as well and i am glad i got to see the old site be for this new site so i know what people are going though.
even if they was not making t3d i would still be buying tgea as my engine. i have not got it yet as i am doing some stuff right now in RL be for i buy it. i will be buying it and i will be using it right when i get it. the first thing i will do is use all the sources i have found that i liked and making objects and stuff for them and making things work the way i want it. i know what i am getting into and where i am headed i just hope you do as well. people in the past week have been saying bad things to me just because they think they know more i know allot and might not know everything but no one knows everything in the first place. i might not be very smart ether but i know what i am talking about when i say things even if they might be hard to read for you.
01/26/2009 (12:45 pm)
no the upgrade is still there lets say you have tge and want to upgrade to tgea just put tgea in your account and it will auto update the price for you you have to own tge to get the price change first. i read it in the forums 2 days ago so i know how it works now.joe that not very nice ether you think because you own the engine already that i don't know nothing about the engine. i have been looking up so much info and messing with the demo for a month in mater of fact just by doing that i might know more then you unlikely though as there's just so much out there but i know allot. i been looking for a engine for months now and i have decided on tgea. i know good games can be made with tgea and tge i just like the way things are turning around on the gg site. i was here be for they change the new site i like the old site better as well and i am glad i got to see the old site be for this new site so i know what people are going though.
even if they was not making t3d i would still be buying tgea as my engine. i have not got it yet as i am doing some stuff right now in RL be for i buy it. i will be buying it and i will be using it right when i get it. the first thing i will do is use all the sources i have found that i liked and making objects and stuff for them and making things work the way i want it. i know what i am getting into and where i am headed i just hope you do as well. people in the past week have been saying bad things to me just because they think they know more i know allot and might not know everything but no one knows everything in the first place. i might not be very smart ether but i know what i am talking about when i say things even if they might be hard to read for you.
#27
So far theres no actual whitepaper to be studied, all we have seen so far is soft eyecandy and gentle hints. Based on those the disscussion should not even have been raised, but it was. In my view, a bit foolish like the uncontrolled rollout of the so-called tested webapplication.
Now, if what we get for whatever 500-2500$ we end up paying for T3D is merely a 2nd hand paintup of good 'ol TSE -is the bar then justified. Well, it will be for some, others will either drop the flow or shift toolset. But it makes me just as 'sick' to see people not on the gleespree being hammered cause they state their case/opinions.
The way the engine features was overcooked in the initial tgea flash, the rollout of site and more, are what concerns me. So even though some stuff are eagerly pimped adhering to the transparency act, some really should be thought more through before being spread -would save us all a lot of pain...
just my 2 cents!
01/26/2009 (1:58 pm)
To be honest, expressing concerns about the cost of a tool is not whining, its merely -expression of concerns-So far theres no actual whitepaper to be studied, all we have seen so far is soft eyecandy and gentle hints. Based on those the disscussion should not even have been raised, but it was. In my view, a bit foolish like the uncontrolled rollout of the so-called tested webapplication.
Now, if what we get for whatever 500-2500$ we end up paying for T3D is merely a 2nd hand paintup of good 'ol TSE -is the bar then justified. Well, it will be for some, others will either drop the flow or shift toolset. But it makes me just as 'sick' to see people not on the gleespree being hammered cause they state their case/opinions.
The way the engine features was overcooked in the initial tgea flash, the rollout of site and more, are what concerns me. So even though some stuff are eagerly pimped adhering to the transparency act, some really should be thought more through before being spread -would save us all a lot of pain...
just my 2 cents!
#28
Ultimately the problem with a "keep them honest via EULA" scheme is that there are a lot of people out there who are willing to "overlook" the "non-commercial" part of the EULA to save money. We've seen this very clearly in our own indie vs commercial licensing already (Brett talked about this a bit in his blog). When you have an identical product with multiple price points it is very common to see people just buy at the low price point to "evaluate the product" with the full intention of upgrading later but then they never do (unless we harass them).
Having been around the GG community for a long time and also having gotten to see the reality of the sales figures behind the scenes (before you ask...no...I can't give you those figures), I am really familiar with both the successes and failures of our current model. The success is that we have enabled a ton of people to get into game development and we have one of the best and biggest game development communities in the world! The "failure" is that the shoestring pricing and development investments that we've made over the years is only really viable if one of two things happens: 1) there is no competition 2) the massive amount of users is producing a large quantity of quality games. Obviously the first is no longer true and, to be brutally honest, the second hasn't panned out anywhere near as well as we originally hoped when GG was started. That isn't to downplay the amazing number of games that has shipped on Torque (180+ at my last count) which is better than any other engine on the market (even including the AAA) but it isn't enough to sustain us when we are having to sink increasing amounts of money into research and development to stay competitive.
01/26/2009 (2:13 pm)
Quote:
I also feel that GG could still throw the hobbyist a bone with some sliding scale "non-commercial" pricing, sort of in the same vein as the indie license is now. I don't think that would hurt them in the long (or short) run, as it gives a low barrier to entry still, and also allows for GG to get more revenue from the hobbyists that do turn indie or full-on commercial.
Ultimately the problem with a "keep them honest via EULA" scheme is that there are a lot of people out there who are willing to "overlook" the "non-commercial" part of the EULA to save money. We've seen this very clearly in our own indie vs commercial licensing already (Brett talked about this a bit in his blog). When you have an identical product with multiple price points it is very common to see people just buy at the low price point to "evaluate the product" with the full intention of upgrading later but then they never do (unless we harass them).
Having been around the GG community for a long time and also having gotten to see the reality of the sales figures behind the scenes (before you ask...no...I can't give you those figures), I am really familiar with both the successes and failures of our current model. The success is that we have enabled a ton of people to get into game development and we have one of the best and biggest game development communities in the world! The "failure" is that the shoestring pricing and development investments that we've made over the years is only really viable if one of two things happens: 1) there is no competition 2) the massive amount of users is producing a large quantity of quality games. Obviously the first is no longer true and, to be brutally honest, the second hasn't panned out anywhere near as well as we originally hoped when GG was started. That isn't to downplay the amazing number of games that has shipped on Torque (180+ at my last count) which is better than any other engine on the market (even including the AAA) but it isn't enough to sustain us when we are having to sink increasing amounts of money into research and development to stay competitive.
#29
One thing I've been thinking about a lot lately some other kinds of deltas...specifically content and tool deltas.
Perhaps the lower price point product has all of the same features as the higher price point but has less content and less tools.
01/26/2009 (2:14 pm)
I can definitely sympathize with the notion that a feature delta "sucks". However, the reality is that a feature delta does offer a clear marketing and pricing message to the customer as to why they would ever buy the higher price point (rather than a somewhat arbitrary and esoteric gross income bar). We strongly want to allow hobbyists to enjoy our product but we need to generate more income to make sure that happens which means selling more products at the higher price point and from our view it is clear the a pure license delta isn't enough.One thing I've been thinking about a lot lately some other kinds of deltas...specifically content and tool deltas.
Perhaps the lower price point product has all of the same features as the higher price point but has less content and less tools.
#30
A great example of what I mean by a tools delta is to consider Materials. Obviously it is possible to make and utilize Materials and Shaders without any tools right now. However, if we added an in-game Material Editor with a real-time preview, then it becomes a lot easier and more efficient to work with Materials. Suppose we only include that Material Editor at the higher price point. You absolutely could make the same game/Materials/shaders with the lower price point version but it is going to be faster and easier to do it with the higher price point version and you are going to be clearly motivated to move up to that higher price point when you can.
Now, don't take what I am saying here as "this is how Torque 3D is going to be licensed". That has yet to be decided. These are just some of the ideas that have been running through my own head lately.
An interesting exercise for you guys would be to ask yourself the question, "If it were my business, how would I address the problem?". I know you guys don't have access to all of the sales figures that we do but you can look around at the trends within our own community and see a lot of the same things. Think about it as a provider and not as a customer. It is a pretty interesting problem to try to solve.
01/26/2009 (2:15 pm)
Before you kneejerk a "no way!" consider this. You could make a game like Gerhard's demos completely on your own with a lower price point version that has all of the same features but it is going to be a ton easier if you have example content to reference. Perhaps the lower price point version doesn't include the higher end demos or all of the levels from Apparatus' FPS Genre Kit or is missing some of the source art for all or part of these. Again, it would be totally possible for you to get along on the lower price point without these things but it would be clearly obvious to you why you might want to upgrade to the higher price point.A great example of what I mean by a tools delta is to consider Materials. Obviously it is possible to make and utilize Materials and Shaders without any tools right now. However, if we added an in-game Material Editor with a real-time preview, then it becomes a lot easier and more efficient to work with Materials. Suppose we only include that Material Editor at the higher price point. You absolutely could make the same game/Materials/shaders with the lower price point version but it is going to be faster and easier to do it with the higher price point version and you are going to be clearly motivated to move up to that higher price point when you can.
Now, don't take what I am saying here as "this is how Torque 3D is going to be licensed". That has yet to be decided. These are just some of the ideas that have been running through my own head lately.
An interesting exercise for you guys would be to ask yourself the question, "If it were my business, how would I address the problem?". I know you guys don't have access to all of the sales figures that we do but you can look around at the trends within our own community and see a lot of the same things. Think about it as a provider and not as a customer. It is a pretty interesting problem to try to solve.
#31
Before you mark up all of blogs about Torque 3D as "soft eyecandy and gentle hints" consider this: everything we've shown you has been something that is already working in the engine.
Showing off the work that is already done is far more exciting to me than talking about a list of things that may or may not make it into the final product (the "whitepaper" you refer to).
01/26/2009 (2:21 pm)
Christian S,Before you mark up all of blogs about Torque 3D as "soft eyecandy and gentle hints" consider this: everything we've shown you has been something that is already working in the engine.
Showing off the work that is already done is far more exciting to me than talking about a list of things that may or may not make it into the final product (the "whitepaper" you refer to).
#32
Vastly improved GUI for the editor
the Equivilant of STP but with support for the T3D rendering pipeline. Now, whether this is and new STP that is included or it is built into the editor make no difference to me. Though I would prefer separate tool.
a license of Torsion
working well documented art pipelines and tools for ALL major application not just MAX Blender and Maya.
01/26/2009 (2:57 pm)
In my opinion though if you plan on charging $1000 you need the followingVastly improved GUI for the editor
the Equivilant of STP but with support for the T3D rendering pipeline. Now, whether this is and new STP that is included or it is built into the editor make no difference to me. Though I would prefer separate tool.
a license of Torsion
working well documented art pipelines and tools for ALL major application not just MAX Blender and Maya.
#33
Don't need 'em, I can see the problem with GG's current business model, which is why I'm not too distraught over the pricing changes on the horizon (though if my unemployment continues through the launch, I most likely will have to do with TGEA- but that may happen just to avoid porting again anyway). The problem you state is very real, but I do think that the discussion here in the community is a good thing, as it might stir up some ideas that can help get past it.
As to the idea of content and tool deltas, you can go so far as to have a "customize this" button for the engine where people add tools, content, or even technology, similar to what most computer manufacturers have for PC's now. Maybe the last is stretching it unless you guys are modularizing the engine (I hope you are), but it's not a bad idea. A few years back people made shaders in Notepad, and you can still make scripts in Notepad as well, so a "lite" version of the engine for hobbyists might be the better way to go.
Regarding the higher end of a tool/content delta, I agree with James with the inclusion of Torsion. To have T3D really be easy to use, you need to have that in the toolbox. I also second his comments on a solid art pipeline as well. It's okay now for some apps, but could be far better for a broader range of apps, and there is no real substitute for the in-game terrain editor, which isn't up to the task of editing Atlas like it does Legacy terrain (specifically, I need caves not made from DIFs).
My 2 cents on this (my pocket is still jingly though)...
01/26/2009 (3:42 pm)
@Christian S: Not sure if the "whining" thing was meant about my post? If it was, I'll clarify and say that stating a case or opinion in itself is not whining, of course. I'm referring to some of the posts that have popped up from a handful of people that have gone way off into the extremes of unprofessionalism or became insulting. Again, not sure if that was a response to me- if not, then disregard.Quote:before you ask...no...I can't give you those figures
Don't need 'em, I can see the problem with GG's current business model, which is why I'm not too distraught over the pricing changes on the horizon (though if my unemployment continues through the launch, I most likely will have to do with TGEA- but that may happen just to avoid porting again anyway). The problem you state is very real, but I do think that the discussion here in the community is a good thing, as it might stir up some ideas that can help get past it.
As to the idea of content and tool deltas, you can go so far as to have a "customize this" button for the engine where people add tools, content, or even technology, similar to what most computer manufacturers have for PC's now. Maybe the last is stretching it unless you guys are modularizing the engine (I hope you are), but it's not a bad idea. A few years back people made shaders in Notepad, and you can still make scripts in Notepad as well, so a "lite" version of the engine for hobbyists might be the better way to go.
Regarding the higher end of a tool/content delta, I agree with James with the inclusion of Torsion. To have T3D really be easy to use, you need to have that in the toolbox. I also second his comments on a solid art pipeline as well. It's okay now for some apps, but could be far better for a broader range of apps, and there is no real substitute for the in-game terrain editor, which isn't up to the task of editing Atlas like it does Legacy terrain (specifically, I need caves not made from DIFs).
My 2 cents on this (my pocket is still jingly though)...
#34
Thanks, that's nice to hear. I'm glad that you have been so dedicated to improving the docs, and I'm glad that we will have much more complete documentation :]
01/26/2009 (3:50 pm)
Michael Perry,Thanks, that's nice to hear. I'm glad that you have been so dedicated to improving the docs, and I'm glad that we will have much more complete documentation :]
#35
01/26/2009 (4:33 pm)
Quote:One thing I've been thinking about a lot lately some other kinds of deltas...specifically content and tool deltas.I'm an advocate of that idea myself -- much more preferable than a feature delta.
Perhaps the lower price point product has all of the same features as the higher price point but has less content and less tools.
#36
It's your so called hobbyist rather than small studio that form the major numbers of guys frequenting the forums, posting resources to share their work, sharing ideas and helping each other to try and fulfil a dream --- You're definition of whining is my definition of passion!
I quite agree that GG needs to charge more for Torque 3D it's shaping up to be a stunning product and they deserve and need the cash to keep investing in things - but they need to balance that with delivering a product set that caters for all parts of their indie customer base from single developer to small studio to AAA game studio.
I'm sure they'll do their best to strike that balance right for both us and themselves.
Edit: remove unneeded comment
01/26/2009 (4:36 pm)
@Syllus - You may wish to differentiate between indie developers and hobbyists in that way but indie means independantly funded and that my friend covers both small studios and the single guys...so don't judge other peoples commments by your own standards and definitions, take them in the context they were meant!!! It's your so called hobbyist rather than small studio that form the major numbers of guys frequenting the forums, posting resources to share their work, sharing ideas and helping each other to try and fulfil a dream --- You're definition of whining is my definition of passion!
I quite agree that GG needs to charge more for Torque 3D it's shaping up to be a stunning product and they deserve and need the cash to keep investing in things - but they need to balance that with delivering a product set that caters for all parts of their indie customer base from single developer to small studio to AAA game studio.
I'm sure they'll do their best to strike that balance right for both us and themselves.
Edit: remove unneeded comment
#37
That is exactly the kind of question to be asking. If it were my business, I'd take a deep look inside the company and figure out what it's true, core, value proposition really is. That "core" is going to be something GG has and does better than any other competitor.
I would argue that selling enabling products to small-budget/no-budget, Windows indie developers (with a very broad range of skills and interests) in GG's avid community is the single thing GG really does better than any of the competition. [I chose all of those words carefully.]
I'd ask these two questions:
- What does T3D *enable* your current and future customers to do?
- What *solutions* does it offer to your customers that address the problems they have and are willing to pay for?
I hesitate to speak for others, but publishing to an xbox360 or a wii or a web browser really isn't high on the list of problems we actually have...
01/26/2009 (4:47 pm)
@Matt: Quote:An interesting exercise for you guys would be to ask yourself the question, "If it were my business, how would I address the problem?". I know you guys don't have access to all of the sales figures that we do but you can look around at the trends within our own community and see a lot of the same things. Think about it as a provider and not as a customer.
That is exactly the kind of question to be asking. If it were my business, I'd take a deep look inside the company and figure out what it's true, core, value proposition really is. That "core" is going to be something GG has and does better than any other competitor.
I would argue that selling enabling products to small-budget/no-budget, Windows indie developers (with a very broad range of skills and interests) in GG's avid community is the single thing GG really does better than any of the competition. [I chose all of those words carefully.]
I'd ask these two questions:
- What does T3D *enable* your current and future customers to do?
- What *solutions* does it offer to your customers that address the problems they have and are willing to pay for?
I hesitate to speak for others, but publishing to an xbox360 or a wii or a web browser really isn't high on the list of problems we actually have...
#38
I see your point on Xbox and WII (at least for the average community member) but I could see an easy-to-use web deployment solution being pretty useful for an indie or a hobbyist (take a look at Unity's web deployment for an example).
01/26/2009 (5:01 pm)
Quote:
publishing to an xbox360 or a wii or a web browser really isn't high on the list of problems we actually have...
I see your point on Xbox and WII (at least for the average community member) but I could see an easy-to-use web deployment solution being pretty useful for an indie or a hobbyist (take a look at Unity's web deployment for an example).
#39
lol.. of course I was teasing you guys.
There's going to be people complaining if you raised the price by $20.00 let alone by something more substantial. To be honest, I have no problem with GG deviating from the days where one could clean underneath the cushions of the couch and have enough for Torque plus a cheeseburger. OK, I'm exaggerating a little but not by much. The price was so low it was almost embarrassing (image etc).
I am not one to say, oh pleas GG, take more of my money, I insist!.. but at some point it was inevitable that a better business model needed to be implemented. I am also not sure how I feel about a Delta. I do not see myself settling for Diet T3D. I guess the real problem right now is we do not have any kind of an estimate on what exactly the price range may be, let alone a ceiling area.
If the ceiling ends somewhere around $1000.00 - 1500.00, I'll be in.. if not I won't be able to justify it. That's just business as well. In anycase, you guys seem to be busting your arses on this endeavor; my hat's off to you. Can't wait to here more.
~LK~
01/26/2009 (5:18 pm)
Quote:Great, another Christmas ruined by the Mich-Grinch...my Christmas popularity is plummeting... ~ Perry
lol.. of course I was teasing you guys.
There's going to be people complaining if you raised the price by $20.00 let alone by something more substantial. To be honest, I have no problem with GG deviating from the days where one could clean underneath the cushions of the couch and have enough for Torque plus a cheeseburger. OK, I'm exaggerating a little but not by much. The price was so low it was almost embarrassing (image etc).
I am not one to say, oh pleas GG, take more of my money, I insist!.. but at some point it was inevitable that a better business model needed to be implemented. I am also not sure how I feel about a Delta. I do not see myself settling for Diet T3D. I guess the real problem right now is we do not have any kind of an estimate on what exactly the price range may be, let alone a ceiling area.
If the ceiling ends somewhere around $1000.00 - 1500.00, I'll be in.. if not I won't be able to justify it. That's just business as well. In anycase, you guys seem to be busting your arses on this endeavor; my hat's off to you. Can't wait to here more.
~LK~
#40
With best eyes and smiles: Well, sure, that's nice-to-have I suppose ... once you've pulled enough content into the engine and shaped it into something that's capable of being played and called a game. :)
[disclaimer: I don't have a Unity license, but I've kicked the tires.]
01/26/2009 (5:30 pm)
Quote: ... but I could see an easy-to-use web deployment solution being pretty useful for an indie or a hobbyist (take a look at Unity's web deployment for an example).
With best eyes and smiles: Well, sure, that's nice-to-have I suppose ... once you've pulled enough content into the engine and shaped it into something that's capable of being played and called a game. :)
[disclaimer: I don't have a Unity license, but I've kicked the tires.]
Torque Owner Joe Melton
Fails At Making Games
Brandon...hush. There have been several good-looking games produced with TGE and TGEA. We all know you haven't been around here, and haven't licensed any GG engine, so we understand your ignorance. It's just that you don't need to make your ignorance so obvious.