Who Handed Garage Games The Crack Pipe?
by Davis Ray Sickmon, Jr · 01/25/2009 (12:30 am) · 59 comments
The reason my answer has been consistently "Torque" is;
Simple engine - it's pretty easy for someone who doesn't know a lot yet to get started. Sure, you won't be doing the most advanced game development the first day, but it's fast to get up to speed for "little things" and ideas.
Lots of power - Once you kick off the training wheels and get away from the tutorials, there's a buttload of power behind the Torque engine!
Low Cost Entry - An indie license for Torque is dirt cheap. This has the advantage of, well, just being cheap, but it also means that if anyone wants to try and play around outside of the defined boundaries of successful established game styles you're not out much.
No Per-Title Fees - Which means even if you only got a small following for your nitche game, hey, turning around and doing it again isn't going to cost you anything more.
Focus On Getting A Game Done - Rather than tie yourself up dealing with thing like engine development, focus on what's important - getting a game completed. I didn't always agree with Jeff Tunnell on a number of things, but he had one thing right - finish a game and release it.
There's actually quite a few other reasons why I'm a fan, but, that's the big reasons why I pimp the engine, and have since, what? 2001? 2002? And I've had a very "Gotta Buy 'Em All!" attitude too - grudgingly, I've bought TGE, T2D (er, TGB), Torque Lighting Kit, The TGE Upgrade, and... well, just about anything except the console engines, and TGEA (mainly because at the time good Shader support wasn't that important.)
I've been fielding a few questions from people lately that included iPhone - and I had heard of Garage Games adding iPhone support, so I continued to throw people at the Torque setup.
I own an iPhone, love my iPhone, and I'm wanting to do a little bit of "experimental" game development - see what cool ass stuff I could do with accelerometer + multitouch + Torque. In particular, I had this wicked idea for transforming my old Boulder Panic! titles into something completely new - but it's experemental because the game could very easily become WAY too hard to play. But I already own the various Torque licenses, know the tech, and, well, I've been a bit of a fanboy of the engine for quite a while.
So I stop by here, and check out how much I'll be shelling out for yet another GG engine. I already own my iPhone dev license, so, this shouldn't be too bad.
Torque Game Builder for iPhone (iTGB) Indie End User License Agreement (EULA) $500 Per Seat, Per Project License
Are You FUCKING shitting me?
$500 wasn't too steep - that I expected. $500 PER PROJECT? Uh, no. Actually, let me take that a little further. Not no, but HELL NO.
This is the first time I've seen full-on greed coming from Garage Games. Things have previously showed a good ballance between "We gotta make money" and "We gotta consider the interests of the Indies" (lets face it, for bigger corporate customers, $1000+ licensing fees for a title is almost nothing quite often) But this time? It's more like "OOOohhhh - the iPhone is HOT! I bet we can really bend 'em over the table for this!"
$500 per title is not Indie development anymore. It's no longer accessible to anyone who's looking to "break into it", or try experimental stuff. Now it's just another engine, and there are now a lot of those about. Oddly enough, there's already a couple of other engines that are iPhone ready that don't charge per title, so that can't be the excuse. Actually, there's no real excuse for the pricing, just a case of trying to suck as much money out of customers as possible. They see the iPhone, and the Garage Games customer base that might use it as a gold rush for quick cash.
Please, someone take the crack pipe outta the hands of the GG marketing guys, look back at where GG came from, and the folks who advocated the engine, and the community who became built around that engine. Then ask - is the pricing right for that community? I maintain the answer is a solid NO. Drop per project bit - flat fee that sucker.
Heck, give the guys who've already licensed nearly everything a big ol' price break while you're at it! (OK, it was my turn to puff on the crack pipe a bit - sorry about that.)
Now, having said a few very inflammatory things there, and insulting at least a few people in management :-), I do have a couple of good things to say:
Ya know, looking back - good God, it's amazing that Torque is still kickin', Garage Games is still around, and while part of the community has moved on, there's still a lot of faces here, and some of them are still "good ol' days" faces. I think my first license was in 2001, though I'm not positive - for an engine and a company to be viable for this long? Well, dispite my cursing and distain for the iPhone licensing solution they chose, it's pretty damned impressive. And the tech hasn't gone completely stale. Ya'lls still get kudos and all that for makin' a company about supporting Indie game development last this long!
Davis Ray Sickmon, Jr
Midnight Ryder Technologies
(Oh, check out my new blog / podcast if ya' want ;-)
Author,
[url=http://www.gamerzonecenters.com]The Story of Gamer Zone[url]
(BTW - the book formatted version, which has a LOT of cleaned up content is about to be released. I'll be posting on here when it is, along with all the old World of Gamer Zone TV series DVD's :-)
Simple engine - it's pretty easy for someone who doesn't know a lot yet to get started. Sure, you won't be doing the most advanced game development the first day, but it's fast to get up to speed for "little things" and ideas.
Lots of power - Once you kick off the training wheels and get away from the tutorials, there's a buttload of power behind the Torque engine!
Low Cost Entry - An indie license for Torque is dirt cheap. This has the advantage of, well, just being cheap, but it also means that if anyone wants to try and play around outside of the defined boundaries of successful established game styles you're not out much.
No Per-Title Fees - Which means even if you only got a small following for your nitche game, hey, turning around and doing it again isn't going to cost you anything more.
Focus On Getting A Game Done - Rather than tie yourself up dealing with thing like engine development, focus on what's important - getting a game completed. I didn't always agree with Jeff Tunnell on a number of things, but he had one thing right - finish a game and release it.
There's actually quite a few other reasons why I'm a fan, but, that's the big reasons why I pimp the engine, and have since, what? 2001? 2002? And I've had a very "Gotta Buy 'Em All!" attitude too - grudgingly, I've bought TGE, T2D (er, TGB), Torque Lighting Kit, The TGE Upgrade, and... well, just about anything except the console engines, and TGEA (mainly because at the time good Shader support wasn't that important.)
I've been fielding a few questions from people lately that included iPhone - and I had heard of Garage Games adding iPhone support, so I continued to throw people at the Torque setup.
I own an iPhone, love my iPhone, and I'm wanting to do a little bit of "experimental" game development - see what cool ass stuff I could do with accelerometer + multitouch + Torque. In particular, I had this wicked idea for transforming my old Boulder Panic! titles into something completely new - but it's experemental because the game could very easily become WAY too hard to play. But I already own the various Torque licenses, know the tech, and, well, I've been a bit of a fanboy of the engine for quite a while.
So I stop by here, and check out how much I'll be shelling out for yet another GG engine. I already own my iPhone dev license, so, this shouldn't be too bad.
Torque Game Builder for iPhone (iTGB) Indie End User License Agreement (EULA) $500 Per Seat, Per Project License
Are You FUCKING shitting me?
$500 wasn't too steep - that I expected. $500 PER PROJECT? Uh, no. Actually, let me take that a little further. Not no, but HELL NO.
This is the first time I've seen full-on greed coming from Garage Games. Things have previously showed a good ballance between "We gotta make money" and "We gotta consider the interests of the Indies" (lets face it, for bigger corporate customers, $1000+ licensing fees for a title is almost nothing quite often) But this time? It's more like "OOOohhhh - the iPhone is HOT! I bet we can really bend 'em over the table for this!"
$500 per title is not Indie development anymore. It's no longer accessible to anyone who's looking to "break into it", or try experimental stuff. Now it's just another engine, and there are now a lot of those about. Oddly enough, there's already a couple of other engines that are iPhone ready that don't charge per title, so that can't be the excuse. Actually, there's no real excuse for the pricing, just a case of trying to suck as much money out of customers as possible. They see the iPhone, and the Garage Games customer base that might use it as a gold rush for quick cash.
Please, someone take the crack pipe outta the hands of the GG marketing guys, look back at where GG came from, and the folks who advocated the engine, and the community who became built around that engine. Then ask - is the pricing right for that community? I maintain the answer is a solid NO. Drop per project bit - flat fee that sucker.
Heck, give the guys who've already licensed nearly everything a big ol' price break while you're at it! (OK, it was my turn to puff on the crack pipe a bit - sorry about that.)
Now, having said a few very inflammatory things there, and insulting at least a few people in management :-), I do have a couple of good things to say:
Ya know, looking back - good God, it's amazing that Torque is still kickin', Garage Games is still around, and while part of the community has moved on, there's still a lot of faces here, and some of them are still "good ol' days" faces. I think my first license was in 2001, though I'm not positive - for an engine and a company to be viable for this long? Well, dispite my cursing and distain for the iPhone licensing solution they chose, it's pretty damned impressive. And the tech hasn't gone completely stale. Ya'lls still get kudos and all that for makin' a company about supporting Indie game development last this long!
Davis Ray Sickmon, Jr
Midnight Ryder Technologies
(Oh, check out my new blog / podcast if ya' want ;-)
Author,
[url=http://www.gamerzonecenters.com]The Story of Gamer Zone[url]
(BTW - the book formatted version, which has a LOT of cleaned up content is about to be released. I'll be posting on here when it is, along with all the old World of Gamer Zone TV series DVD's :-)
#2
i am one of few and i might not own a engine of there's yet but will be buying tgea soon. when t3d comes out will be buying that as well. what i have seen whats going in t3d already it will be worth every cent.
01/25/2009 (12:52 am)
well they been giving everything out for free for quite some time on the updates which i think was a bad idea. doing that will only put you behind money and then your going to have to make your prices allot higher when you need the money. so what they did is make prices of these new things higher which i don't mind but allot would. people will still be able to buy tgea for years to come so indies that don't have allot of money can use that if they want and indies that have more money then others can buy the better upgraded stuff. i rather like the way they are turning things around as its going to make there future engines allot better allot faster with income.i am one of few and i might not own a engine of there's yet but will be buying tgea soon. when t3d comes out will be buying that as well. what i have seen whats going in t3d already it will be worth every cent.
#3
01/25/2009 (1:07 am)
I'm just praying that T3D isn't going to be per title as well...
#4
Brandon: Hm. Ok, I'm gonna point two things out real quick: You signed up Dec 2008, and hold no licenses. I've been here since 2002 (just looked at my profile to check), and hold multiple licenses. So I've got a little more history here - and I'm gonna share a bit ;-) There's good reason why they've released many of those updates for free - bug updates and features often came from both Garage Games and from the community here. Sometimes the code made it in, sometimes just the idea made it in. Sometimes things spun off into their own products, like John Kabus's Lighting Pack (which, at the time, was awesome), or Melv May's insane work on T2D (which became TGB). Only once that I can remember did Garage Games charge for an update - I think that was in the TGE 1.4 range - can't say I was ecstatic to pay for it, but given how long they had held out on charging for updates, I didn't mind too much and paid it.
It's a give and take thing, IMO, when a community of this size is involved. Unless GG has taken to completely ignoring contributions from the community, even the new iPhone version probably has code that was either contributed by or inspired by community members in it. So, there's good reasons not to charge for every little update.
However, I can understand things like charging for the differences between TGE and TGEA - while it's Torque + Shaders (integrated, not just tacked on), it's a major enough difference to warrant such an split and cost difference. And full disclosure, I'll probably end up licensing it at some point if I get the team I want together to do an "MMO-ish" project.
But the thing you speak of, TGEA, does not suffer from the issue I pointed out. TGEA is license once, use many - as has been classically the situation with Garage Games's products. There's my debate. TGEA, TGB, TGE, etc. have a built in sort of protection for GG's profit margins if you suddenly become successful - make more than $250,000 a year on it, and you have to switch over to a commercial license which is a per seat structure, which provides them with a second infusion of cash. That's a pretty realistic setup that allows Indies to license initially for a low price, but if they are successful in their concepts and ideas, it turns around to benefit GG further (though, in truth, I'm sure the conversion rate between the Indie license and the commercial license is pretty low. I own the commercial TGE license mainly so I could do contract game dev work with a couple of other companies that were well beyond the Indie license range back in 2005.)
The pricing policy doesn't necessarily devalue the existing engines (even if they do cost a bit more these days in comparison to the original TGE release, but jeez - 9 years have passed, some price increase is needed.)
So in other words, you're comparing TGEA to iTorque - licensing wise, it's apples to oranges.
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NOTE: I can't edit my blog entry. Bug? Wish I could - there are two typo's in there.
01/25/2009 (1:57 am)
Michael: Say what you want, but, I'm not at all convinced. GG is in the unique position that no matter what they release, some one WILL purchase it. That's not evidence that it's Indie oriented or Indie friendly, that's just evidence that the old saying "A fool and his money..." is true :-) Plus, it really sort of side steps what I'm saying - per title licensing blows, and stands out in contrast to what has been for the most part an exceptionally great licensing scheme by Garage Games all these years.Brandon: Hm. Ok, I'm gonna point two things out real quick: You signed up Dec 2008, and hold no licenses. I've been here since 2002 (just looked at my profile to check), and hold multiple licenses. So I've got a little more history here - and I'm gonna share a bit ;-) There's good reason why they've released many of those updates for free - bug updates and features often came from both Garage Games and from the community here. Sometimes the code made it in, sometimes just the idea made it in. Sometimes things spun off into their own products, like John Kabus's Lighting Pack (which, at the time, was awesome), or Melv May's insane work on T2D (which became TGB). Only once that I can remember did Garage Games charge for an update - I think that was in the TGE 1.4 range - can't say I was ecstatic to pay for it, but given how long they had held out on charging for updates, I didn't mind too much and paid it.
It's a give and take thing, IMO, when a community of this size is involved. Unless GG has taken to completely ignoring contributions from the community, even the new iPhone version probably has code that was either contributed by or inspired by community members in it. So, there's good reasons not to charge for every little update.
However, I can understand things like charging for the differences between TGE and TGEA - while it's Torque + Shaders (integrated, not just tacked on), it's a major enough difference to warrant such an split and cost difference. And full disclosure, I'll probably end up licensing it at some point if I get the team I want together to do an "MMO-ish" project.
But the thing you speak of, TGEA, does not suffer from the issue I pointed out. TGEA is license once, use many - as has been classically the situation with Garage Games's products. There's my debate. TGEA, TGB, TGE, etc. have a built in sort of protection for GG's profit margins if you suddenly become successful - make more than $250,000 a year on it, and you have to switch over to a commercial license which is a per seat structure, which provides them with a second infusion of cash. That's a pretty realistic setup that allows Indies to license initially for a low price, but if they are successful in their concepts and ideas, it turns around to benefit GG further (though, in truth, I'm sure the conversion rate between the Indie license and the commercial license is pretty low. I own the commercial TGE license mainly so I could do contract game dev work with a couple of other companies that were well beyond the Indie license range back in 2005.)
The pricing policy doesn't necessarily devalue the existing engines (even if they do cost a bit more these days in comparison to the original TGE release, but jeez - 9 years have passed, some price increase is needed.)
So in other words, you're comparing TGEA to iTorque - licensing wise, it's apples to oranges.
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NOTE: I can't edit my blog entry. Bug? Wish I could - there are two typo's in there.
#5
Conversely, if you look at the cost of entry to put something on Xbox Live Community, it's max $400-500ish.
So I'd argue that the iPhone is what isn't "indie" or "hobbyist" friendly, not GG's engines. Personally I think the people that really have the crack pipe are Apple fans that are evangelizing the iPhone as a games platform period (no hardware buttons = epic fail for games*), and as an "indie friendly" games platform (XD which is laughable, given the pricetag for entry).
* - Case in point, every time you see someone show a video or demonstration of playing a game on the iPhone, the video consists primarily of someone's fingers completely obscuring the screen. Brilliant!
Edit: Although I do agree that per-title licensing is pretty crap. But I honestly don't think GG is off the mark at all with the iPhone prices, given the cost of everything else to get started doing it. If you can't afford Torque, you probably couldn't afford the iPhone + myriad fees, equipment etc. that you need to buy from Apple for exorbitant prices anyway.
01/25/2009 (2:39 am)
@Davis, well, considering the already really high barrier to entry for iPhone development, it doesn't strike me as out of place. Someone that doesn't own a Mac already can end up running $2-3k for iPhone + Mac + Apple's ridiculous developer fees + iPhone contract (buying one without a contract is about $1k, so you end up saving maybe $500-600 on the contract that way, but...). Now, it's cheaper if you use an iPod Touch instead, but not by a whole hell of a lot, and it's not really a great option if you are building a network aware game.Conversely, if you look at the cost of entry to put something on Xbox Live Community, it's max $400-500ish.
So I'd argue that the iPhone is what isn't "indie" or "hobbyist" friendly, not GG's engines. Personally I think the people that really have the crack pipe are Apple fans that are evangelizing the iPhone as a games platform period (no hardware buttons = epic fail for games*), and as an "indie friendly" games platform (XD which is laughable, given the pricetag for entry).
* - Case in point, every time you see someone show a video or demonstration of playing a game on the iPhone, the video consists primarily of someone's fingers completely obscuring the screen. Brilliant!
Edit: Although I do agree that per-title licensing is pretty crap. But I honestly don't think GG is off the mark at all with the iPhone prices, given the cost of everything else to get started doing it. If you can't afford Torque, you probably couldn't afford the iPhone + myriad fees, equipment etc. that you need to buy from Apple for exorbitant prices anyway.
#6
i see people complaining about $150 is to much i can get that money in a 3day and i don't even have a good day job that pays allot. i would have to maybe cut on some bills though to do it but i can do it if i want it that bad and that soon i could save that kind of money just to get what i want. i might not own a engine yet but i going to be buying tgea soon i just need to do some more things be for i do it though i should have it in less then 1 week. i been looking at this engine for a month now i been looking at engines for longer then that though i have looked at over 200 engines and i have decided on tgea.
you own all those engines but that's because that's because that's what you need for your projects i only want to do 3d projects not 2d or anything else. i not going to mess with coding or anything like that in tgea as there's going to be major changes in t3d so i don't want to spend time learning something that might just be a waste of time. the only thing i going to do with tgea for the time being is put 3d objects in it and set it up the way i want it. i also once t3d is out and there's something not in t3d but its in tgea i can just buy the thing for tgea and then port it over to t3d.
i have put allot of thought into making a game and studying other games for the past 3 years so i kind of have a head start at knowing what to do. i also got many many ideas in those 3 years of time i cant even count how many games i tested i even tested 2d games but not as many. also you don't even know how much it cost them to get a license to for iPhone i don't know ether but it cant be cheap. maybe you should be asking them why they made it $500 then posting because you don't like the price here and getting all mad over it. if you don't want to buy anything from gg again then let that be and stick with what you got.
i am new here and yet i not complaining over t3d price tag there are others that are in mater of fact like i said what i have seen already in t3d i don't mind paying 2k for it. it will take some saving if it was that much but i would get it at that price still and that's just with the stuff they have showed of whats going in it. i no rich man could be if i saved as much money as i could every day fir the rest of my life but it would be hard living. ok i can go on for ever on this but i will stop if you cant afford it then don't buy it its as simple as that.
01/25/2009 (3:12 am)
then just don't buy anything else from them its as simple as that. or go buy cryengine or any of those high cost engines not only that those engines the same way the iTorque is you have to buy that expensive license per game. i not complaining what so ever they should be getting payed for there work mostly with what work i am seeing done with t3d. they make these engines for you to use why don't you go and pay someone to make you a engine and lets see how much it will cost you well over 10k i can count on that. the economy is bad as well right now so they need even more money so they can keep the people they pay and to make more jobs for people so many people are getting fired they do need a job gg is supplying that as long as you supply them with money.i see people complaining about $150 is to much i can get that money in a 3day and i don't even have a good day job that pays allot. i would have to maybe cut on some bills though to do it but i can do it if i want it that bad and that soon i could save that kind of money just to get what i want. i might not own a engine yet but i going to be buying tgea soon i just need to do some more things be for i do it though i should have it in less then 1 week. i been looking at this engine for a month now i been looking at engines for longer then that though i have looked at over 200 engines and i have decided on tgea.
you own all those engines but that's because that's because that's what you need for your projects i only want to do 3d projects not 2d or anything else. i not going to mess with coding or anything like that in tgea as there's going to be major changes in t3d so i don't want to spend time learning something that might just be a waste of time. the only thing i going to do with tgea for the time being is put 3d objects in it and set it up the way i want it. i also once t3d is out and there's something not in t3d but its in tgea i can just buy the thing for tgea and then port it over to t3d.
i have put allot of thought into making a game and studying other games for the past 3 years so i kind of have a head start at knowing what to do. i also got many many ideas in those 3 years of time i cant even count how many games i tested i even tested 2d games but not as many. also you don't even know how much it cost them to get a license to for iPhone i don't know ether but it cant be cheap. maybe you should be asking them why they made it $500 then posting because you don't like the price here and getting all mad over it. if you don't want to buy anything from gg again then let that be and stick with what you got.
i am new here and yet i not complaining over t3d price tag there are others that are in mater of fact like i said what i have seen already in t3d i don't mind paying 2k for it. it will take some saving if it was that much but i would get it at that price still and that's just with the stuff they have showed of whats going in it. i no rich man could be if i saved as much money as i could every day fir the rest of my life but it would be hard living. ok i can go on for ever on this but i will stop if you cant afford it then don't buy it its as simple as that.
#7
I agree that $500 per title is a little high for this when it's the same thing you get for $250 for unlimited titles on PC, but really it's still an Indie price. Note that for a while now they've been making it clear that they draw a distinction between independent game developers and hobbyists, and their core focus is now on the former. The days of the $150 game engine with years of free updates are gone.
They've moved on a bit from the initial spirit of GarageGames I think, which is expected with new management. Even though Jeff tried to promise everybody that he was assured that wouldn't happen when they sold to IAC, I think most people knew better. If the end result is a higher quality product then I'm okay with it as long as they don't get too greedy, though I guess it will probably alienate a lot of hobbyists that have made up the core of the community.
01/25/2009 (4:42 am)
Quote:$500 per title is not Indie development anymore. It's no longer accessible to anyone who's looking to "break into it", or try experimental stuff.
I agree that $500 per title is a little high for this when it's the same thing you get for $250 for unlimited titles on PC, but really it's still an Indie price. Note that for a while now they've been making it clear that they draw a distinction between independent game developers and hobbyists, and their core focus is now on the former. The days of the $150 game engine with years of free updates are gone.
They've moved on a bit from the initial spirit of GarageGames I think, which is expected with new management. Even though Jeff tried to promise everybody that he was assured that wouldn't happen when they sold to IAC, I think most people knew better. If the end result is a higher quality product then I'm okay with it as long as they don't get too greedy, though I guess it will probably alienate a lot of hobbyists that have made up the core of the community.
#8
But that does negate your point - the barrier for entry for many will be the license from GG, and the knowladge that no matter how successful or unsuccessful, they'll be paying that $500 for every game they want to use iTorque for.
I TOTALLY agree with you the lame gameplay videos that have someone finger over top of the screen. *SIGH* And initially, I thought the lack of hardware buttons was gonna be an epic fail for the iPhone - but man, some of the game on there rock. I bought mine as a business tool, but I'm surprised how many games I have on it now. Go fig. Try some of the games - some are awesome, some suck. Which, well, is pretty much a mirror of every other game platform so far. No one ends up with 100% quality title releases.
Brandon: I'm a full time self employed guy, and have been since, hm... 2003. Somewhere around there. While I've been out of direct involvement with game development for a couple years now, I've got 7 game releases under my belt, two failed projects, and three contract gigs in that field, along with other misc stuff. However, these days I pay the bills with mostly "boring" projects like web development, writing a book, software development, and industrial automation. $150 is under 3 hours of contract work ($55 / hour in town, $720 / day out of town) for me - however, the load of $500 PER TITLE (per title - that's the part I have an issue with. I'd probably still have an issue with $100 per title, but I'd grumble a lot quieter I suppose) is still enough to look more towards rolling my own for iPhone development. iTorque is probably great - but the frugal nature of being self employed for so long means you watch and study the flow of cash. You make every dime count - you optimize your life and your accounting just as much as you optimize an engine or SQL queries on a PHP + MySQL website. Experimental game design, for instance, goes completely out the window - you MUST, in no uncertain terms, make $500 in sales every time you release something. Or you just threw money out the window. A one time investment of $500? Then you can do multiple games that you feel are more "iffy" as a commercial success and make the money back. And, it was at one time a selling point behind TGE - one time payment, no royalties, etc. Again, another reason I frequently recommended Torque.
Ya' talk like I might not be aware of the costs of engines - far from it, I'm acutely aware of the costs of engines, otherwise I wouldn't have pointed out the licensing terms for competing iPhone game platforms :-)
I stand up, and make my voice heard, not because I walking away from the platform. I stand up and make my voice heard as a rallying cry for anyone who feels the same as me. I have always like the Torque engine. I've been supporter for a long time. I've done commercial contracts using the Torque engine. I went to Indie Games Con #1, #2, & #3 (as a speaker). If I had just signed up for an account, I'd be just another disgruntled customer. (That comes off sounding wrong - I really can't imagine a whole lotta people being "disgruntled" with Torque in general. Most people are miss-placing their inability to stick with it and finish a game. GG's tech is good :-) But when someone has spent as much time as a licensee as I have, or as much time telling people "Use Torque", or even has commercial credentials from using the engine, it carries just a little more weight. Not MUCH, but a little more. And I could just say piss on it, sulk away, and loose my personal investment as an "old" community member. Or I could stand up, say something, and see who else objects. But unless someone speaks up, if everyone who objects to it just walks away, no one sees the opportunity to speak up in agreement, and GG looses business over it.
Never be quiet - always stand up and speak your mind. You'll be surprised how often you find other people with the same opinion :-) (And Lord knows I've spoke up a couple of times on here before ;-)
On the other hand, when you object to what someone says, be sure to stand up and speak to. And ya' did just fine on that part, Brandon :-)
01/25/2009 (4:43 am)
Ross: Pricetag for entry can be brought down to NEARLY the same pricetag as developing for the XBox community. Mac Mini ($500 - yep, that's my dev platform at the moment, works just fine, thanks for asking) + iPhone license + iPhone... wait, except for the iPhone license, my barrier for entry was zero. And in your numbers, you probably also didn't add the cost of your PC, your copy of Visual Studio, or the cost of your XBox 360 :-) Sorry - just naggin' at ya on that point mainly because it's really not that valid - some people already have Macs for development ;-) (Heck, I prefer it by far, but, that's personal preference, and yes, I use Virtual PC on mine for Win development from time to time.)But that does negate your point - the barrier for entry for many will be the license from GG, and the knowladge that no matter how successful or unsuccessful, they'll be paying that $500 for every game they want to use iTorque for.
I TOTALLY agree with you the lame gameplay videos that have someone finger over top of the screen. *SIGH* And initially, I thought the lack of hardware buttons was gonna be an epic fail for the iPhone - but man, some of the game on there rock. I bought mine as a business tool, but I'm surprised how many games I have on it now. Go fig. Try some of the games - some are awesome, some suck. Which, well, is pretty much a mirror of every other game platform so far. No one ends up with 100% quality title releases.
Brandon: I'm a full time self employed guy, and have been since, hm... 2003. Somewhere around there. While I've been out of direct involvement with game development for a couple years now, I've got 7 game releases under my belt, two failed projects, and three contract gigs in that field, along with other misc stuff. However, these days I pay the bills with mostly "boring" projects like web development, writing a book, software development, and industrial automation. $150 is under 3 hours of contract work ($55 / hour in town, $720 / day out of town) for me - however, the load of $500 PER TITLE (per title - that's the part I have an issue with. I'd probably still have an issue with $100 per title, but I'd grumble a lot quieter I suppose) is still enough to look more towards rolling my own for iPhone development. iTorque is probably great - but the frugal nature of being self employed for so long means you watch and study the flow of cash. You make every dime count - you optimize your life and your accounting just as much as you optimize an engine or SQL queries on a PHP + MySQL website. Experimental game design, for instance, goes completely out the window - you MUST, in no uncertain terms, make $500 in sales every time you release something. Or you just threw money out the window. A one time investment of $500? Then you can do multiple games that you feel are more "iffy" as a commercial success and make the money back. And, it was at one time a selling point behind TGE - one time payment, no royalties, etc. Again, another reason I frequently recommended Torque.
Ya' talk like I might not be aware of the costs of engines - far from it, I'm acutely aware of the costs of engines, otherwise I wouldn't have pointed out the licensing terms for competing iPhone game platforms :-)
I stand up, and make my voice heard, not because I walking away from the platform. I stand up and make my voice heard as a rallying cry for anyone who feels the same as me. I have always like the Torque engine. I've been supporter for a long time. I've done commercial contracts using the Torque engine. I went to Indie Games Con #1, #2, & #3 (as a speaker). If I had just signed up for an account, I'd be just another disgruntled customer. (That comes off sounding wrong - I really can't imagine a whole lotta people being "disgruntled" with Torque in general. Most people are miss-placing their inability to stick with it and finish a game. GG's tech is good :-) But when someone has spent as much time as a licensee as I have, or as much time telling people "Use Torque", or even has commercial credentials from using the engine, it carries just a little more weight. Not MUCH, but a little more. And I could just say piss on it, sulk away, and loose my personal investment as an "old" community member. Or I could stand up, say something, and see who else objects. But unless someone speaks up, if everyone who objects to it just walks away, no one sees the opportunity to speak up in agreement, and GG looses business over it.
Never be quiet - always stand up and speak your mind. You'll be surprised how often you find other people with the same opinion :-) (And Lord knows I've spoke up a couple of times on here before ;-)
On the other hand, when you object to what someone says, be sure to stand up and speak to. And ya' did just fine on that part, Brandon :-)
#9
Edit: forgot marketing costs (if you spend money, you may make money) but if you are paying (x) amount for advertising then this is gonna impact your profits.
So on that note; if you are a commercial branded company that has a good reputation for games and you are making a re-make or a new game with the branded logo on, you'll sell more and the costs would be justified - but then you'd need a $1000 commercial licence too :)
Agghh... what the hell if I have $500 spare I'll probably get a licence and see what all the fuss is about :) Need a Mac and iPhone first tho. lol
Interested to find out what the user numbers are though, how many iPhones there are in the world, but more importantly how many people play games on the iPhone, to have a slice of that cake.
I think the bottom line is, if you have a good game, or you have had some success on TGB, other platforms and you want to make a go of it on the iphone, give it a shot. You may only do it once, but if you have good success from your first one, you will certainly not look back. Just make sure everything is top notch!
01/25/2009 (5:26 am)
$500 per title is a little steep for the indie developer that relies on an income from games as bread and butter, but what do iPhone games actually make on the retail side of things coming from an Indie developer? Average cost of a game is $3 ? so your game needs to be good enough for people to buy it, and you'd need at least 166 sales. This covers the cost of your licence, then you need to consider your artwork and development costs on top. So my guess is that you may just about break even on it if you don't market the game enough, it'll need to be a game that is popular for people to shell out even $3 for (and not be a remake of a game that is already out there free, there are just too many cloned games). The only time I'd probably make an iPhone game with Torque is when one of my existing games on PC is a success or a client contacts me and wants their game developed on all platforms. I'd be interested to find out how many Torque indie iPhone developers there are, and ones that are looking to complete the games for retail, to find out if anyone has made any money out of creating iPhone games and justify the costs development costs, or is it just a fad.. cos the iPhone looks cool, hell lets make a game and see if it sells?Edit: forgot marketing costs (if you spend money, you may make money) but if you are paying (x) amount for advertising then this is gonna impact your profits.
So on that note; if you are a commercial branded company that has a good reputation for games and you are making a re-make or a new game with the branded logo on, you'll sell more and the costs would be justified - but then you'd need a $1000 commercial licence too :)
Agghh... what the hell if I have $500 spare I'll probably get a licence and see what all the fuss is about :) Need a Mac and iPhone first tho. lol
Interested to find out what the user numbers are though, how many iPhones there are in the world, but more importantly how many people play games on the iPhone, to have a slice of that cake.
I think the bottom line is, if you have a good game, or you have had some success on TGB, other platforms and you want to make a go of it on the iphone, give it a shot. You may only do it once, but if you have good success from your first one, you will certainly not look back. Just make sure everything is top notch!
#10
At GarageGames, we share the crack pipe.
(I found this with the new search functionality in my first search, great work guys!)
I don't have much to say about the specifics... just want to let you know that we are far from greedy bastards, dictators, or "high on crack" as this blog implies.
01/25/2009 (7:32 am)
"Who Handed Garage Games The Crack Pipe?"At GarageGames, we share the crack pipe.
(I found this with the new search functionality in my first search, great work guys!)
I don't have much to say about the specifics... just want to let you know that we are far from greedy bastards, dictators, or "high on crack" as this blog implies.
#11
From most of the projects I have seen and worked on around here. One thing is for sure and its that Indie's tend to think outside the box when it comes to making games original. Some of the strangest and odd games have been made by Indie developers. When your taking a hit of $500 per project the going outside the box tends to go out the window as you do not want to make the risk of something truely original flopping and costing $500. Where as the other license agreements tend to allow for experimentation and alot of risk since if your outside the box game flops your out very little and you can begin work on your next project without any upfront cost.
As Julian says above when your getting $3 a sale (if you get that much) and your forced to recoup atleast the license cost for the title.
But thats just my opinion on it. I sure hope T3D does not go to a per project setup as that could be the ultimate killing blow for me picking it up. I just couldn't justify paying $1k-$10k for a license on T3D and turn around and do that for every project that I decided to pickup and run a prototype with.
01/25/2009 (9:16 am)
I am kinda with Davis on this one. The $500 tag isn't exactly the issue. Heck could even do $5k a license. But the issue more comes from the per project then anything else.From most of the projects I have seen and worked on around here. One thing is for sure and its that Indie's tend to think outside the box when it comes to making games original. Some of the strangest and odd games have been made by Indie developers. When your taking a hit of $500 per project the going outside the box tends to go out the window as you do not want to make the risk of something truely original flopping and costing $500. Where as the other license agreements tend to allow for experimentation and alot of risk since if your outside the box game flops your out very little and you can begin work on your next project without any upfront cost.
As Julian says above when your getting $3 a sale (if you get that much) and your forced to recoup atleast the license cost for the title.
But thats just my opinion on it. I sure hope T3D does not go to a per project setup as that could be the ultimate killing blow for me picking it up. I just couldn't justify paying $1k-$10k for a license on T3D and turn around and do that for every project that I decided to pickup and run a prototype with.
#12
Yep, right there in front, yep...
01/25/2009 (9:21 am)
good job josh, umm I found it on the first page of the blogs myself.Yep, right there in front, yep...
#13
01/25/2009 (10:11 am)
@Thomas, you could pay $5k for a license, but not $500 per title? If you're able to pump out 10 games within the lifetime of the iPhone, somehow I doubt they're going to be all that original :P
#14
There is never any grantee that a project will go retail. Generally I have several 3-5 projects in the works at a time to R&D different ideas, stories, game play setups, and interfaces. Do I ever expect half of them or even 3/4th's them to make it to a working title game setup. No, I doubt many of them ever will as alot of it are just that R&D and idea pitch's.
I could make several project pitch's to a developer a year and only one or two of them ever get a green lite. For every one of those pitch's with the license the way it is now, I have to purchase a new license. Where when it was with TGE, TGEA I could R&D ideas tell my hearts desire without ever being forced to purchase a new license.
Now do I think GG would ever come after me if I purchased just a iTorque license and ran with that on several game R&D pitchs. I doubt they would but I still like to keep the books straight and in the green legal lites. I have no problems paying for what is.
But I am saying in a legal sense doing a per project license just isn't something of a direction I want to see GG take.
But like I said that is just my opinion on it all and where I stand in the huge tree that is the Torque Community.
01/25/2009 (10:40 am)
Its per project where there is a little difference between a project and a title. I could effective have several projects going on at any one time. Where is generally you will only have one shipping title under development at a time.There is never any grantee that a project will go retail. Generally I have several 3-5 projects in the works at a time to R&D different ideas, stories, game play setups, and interfaces. Do I ever expect half of them or even 3/4th's them to make it to a working title game setup. No, I doubt many of them ever will as alot of it are just that R&D and idea pitch's.
I could make several project pitch's to a developer a year and only one or two of them ever get a green lite. For every one of those pitch's with the license the way it is now, I have to purchase a new license. Where when it was with TGE, TGEA I could R&D ideas tell my hearts desire without ever being forced to purchase a new license.
Now do I think GG would ever come after me if I purchased just a iTorque license and ran with that on several game R&D pitchs. I doubt they would but I still like to keep the books straight and in the green legal lites. I have no problems paying for what is.
But I am saying in a legal sense doing a per project license just isn't something of a direction I want to see GG take.
But like I said that is just my opinion on it all and where I stand in the huge tree that is the Torque Community.
#15
A "per project" in the sense that you're talking about makes no sense and nobody does it that way.
01/25/2009 (12:32 pm)
@Thomas, I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that "per project" means "per title" in this case. I am not a lawyer, so I suppose if you really need to keep it clear legally, you might want to consult one or ask for a clearer license, but I know that was the original intent. In one of Brett's original blog posts on iPhone support, this was the model they announced:Quote:For current owners of TGB:
$500 for the iTGB SDK and right to publish 1 title. $100 per title thereafter. No royalties, ever.
A "per project" in the sense that you're talking about makes no sense and nobody does it that way.
#16
But as I am not a iTorque developer it's really no big issue to me. I just don't see a market there in the long run, just like the psp (my opinion).
Anyways thats just my 2 cents on the whole per project. We will see what happens going forward. Clearly a different direction is in the picture for Garage Games that what it use to be.
01/25/2009 (1:03 pm)
Still though as of now it does say per project and not per title.But as I am not a iTorque developer it's really no big issue to me. I just don't see a market there in the long run, just like the psp (my opinion).
Anyways thats just my 2 cents on the whole per project. We will see what happens going forward. Clearly a different direction is in the picture for Garage Games that what it use to be.
#17
01/25/2009 (1:07 pm)
It might be a good idea to see about changing "per project" to "per product". As there is a fair amount of different between a project, title, and/or product.
#18
And I agree there's probably not much market in the long-run there, mainly because the iPhone in it's current state probably wont be around very long; that's still a tech area that is volatile and subject to drastic changes.
Which is probably a good reason for them to charge more money now, to recoup their investment in and make a profit on it before it's obsolete.
01/25/2009 (1:15 pm)
Project is a pretty vague term, and I'm not even sure such a license could be legally binding. Projects tend to evolve a lot so trying to pin a license per-ongoing-project would be a problem. If I was developing for iPhone I'd probably have to get clarification first, but I wouldn't complain about it until I did :PAnd I agree there's probably not much market in the long-run there, mainly because the iPhone in it's current state probably wont be around very long; that's still a tech area that is volatile and subject to drastic changes.
Which is probably a good reason for them to charge more money now, to recoup their investment in and make a profit on it before it's obsolete.
#19
01/25/2009 (1:16 pm)
I agree that the per-project fee would make me look elsewhere. Fortunatly, TGEA doesn't (yet, anyway..) have this. But what's an "indie"? Is it the same as the indie mentioned in recent T3D posts? Etc. 
#20
This is what we need to see in more of these conversations. I've seen non-owners many times in the last couple weeks telling us how it is here, when they don't know a thing about it. Talk about annoying. I guess the same could be said about "employees" who joined in 2007 or 2008 and try to explain to us the original GG vision. They're in no position to talk...
01/25/2009 (1:44 pm)
Davis, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said this:Quote:You signed up Dec 2008, and hold no licenses. I've been here since 2002 (just looked at my profile to check), and hold multiple licenses.
This is what we need to see in more of these conversations. I've seen non-owners many times in the last couple weeks telling us how it is here, when they don't know a thing about it. Talk about annoying. I guess the same could be said about "employees" who joined in 2007 or 2008 and try to explain to us the original GG vision. They're in no position to talk...
Community Manager Michael Perry
ZombieShortbus
Actually got quite a few Indie projects rolling out the door very soon. This includes teams and 1 man projects. The games are quite fun and addictive, make good use of the tech, and are being used by newcomers and veteran TGB users alike.