Goodbye GarageGames Community
by Joshua Dallman · 01/15/2009 (10:30 am) · 58 comments
To quote GG co-founder Jeff Tunnell's blog:
"Many people have moved on, or graduated, if you will... one rarely hears from any of these people as they are running their successful companies, many still based on Torque technologies."
Speaking of developers who have moved on but are still using Torque, this is my last blog here -- this new site design settles it. It's about more than just web development decisions -- the new site design reflects the new attitude of the company, and I won't support it if it doesn't support indie games. The new IAC-funded guys running GG have amnesia when it comes to what GG was all about when it was founded. Look at the original GG logo:
See what it says right there on the logo? INDEPENDENT GAMES.
So where are the independent games and support thereof? Let's see what has GG done to support indepedent games with this new site:
(1) Removed of all the community-created games from the game store, taking it from over 50 games to less than 15
(2) Removed the community-created games "Powered by Torque" page
(3) Removed the engine-specific community-made games on the engine pages
(4) Removed all information on how to get published with GG
(5) Removed the indie game snapshots section
(6) Removed the and artist's corner snapshots section
(7) Removed game store games from the front page
(8) Buried the game store in the developer store where it'll never be found
With the lack of any new publishing of independent games except on the sparsely populated InstantAction, there's only one place left to promote any independent games I make, and that's with a developer interview that'll be up for a week and then forgotten, if I'm lucky to land the interview at all. Nice parting prize, but not nearly enough.
I've long been a champion of indie developers and their games. It seems that no one at GarageGames cares about these things anymore. On the whole site redesign team, there isn't one person with an indie perspective pulling for indies. Programmer, check. Graphic designer, check. Business analyst, check. QA, check. Actual game developer... oddly missing. Kind of funny (in a sad way) since the whole site is supposed to be designed for actual game developers.
The whole of the GarageGames community was to encourage people to make games (buy a GG engine, use the GG community, get motivated, share war stories, and get that game made, even if it was just a prototype or experiment). Where's the encouragement now when there's no place for that game to go once it's done? Where are the independent games on this site? Not even a "Powered by Torque" page or dev snapshots anymore? And the community game site "Great Games Experiment" has been totally abandoned by GG, which would have been at least some consolation as a place to put and promote games before GG expunged any evidence of their existence from this site.
On top of removing independent games from an independent game and development site, community features to support developers were an afterthought to Torque product promotion:
- no RSS
- no dev snapshot
- killed help wanted
- took out all team based interactions
- no associate tags
- no associate list
- took out all lore from the past on the company section
- no information on how to get published
- can't edit
- can't follow or be notified of blog comments and threads
- forum and resource contribution links removed from profile
- took out past work products on profile
- took out companies involved in from profile
- no profile or projects pics
- resources are a mess
- news has been eliminated
- no dashboard for what's new in community
- forums have been decimated
- no TDN
- etc.
Further participation in this once robust and thriving community is pointless. With Alexa rankings that have gone from 12,000 to 40,000 in the past year (a huge slide down), this new socially hostile site design should solidify the insignificance of continuing to participate in this declining community.
Talk is cheap -- it costs nothing to type the words "we care about the community and we're listening" (and we keep hearing that in response to this bungle). Action is what's meaningful, and by GG's actions they could care less about the community, as long as those Torque products have the best sales pages and access possible. Their only response to all this is "fixes are coming" but fixes would have been coming anyway -- they haven't reacted to our reaction at all. Hence, they aren't listening or don't truly care no matter how many times they try to spin things and type that they do. Or worse -- they're listening and they do care, but because they're not small-time developers like us anymore, they don't understand what all the fuss is about.
GG isn't dead, but the community is. Even if the community cares about GG, GG has to care about the community, and by their actions (not their words), they don't. Even if the community cares about indie games, GG has to care about indie games for there to be real support with muscle behind it, and by their actions they don't.
I'll see you guys over at http://forums.indiegamer.com. If you're serious about indie game development and community, I suggest you all level up and make the switch yourselves. If anyone has other suggestions for game dev communities to check out, post them here.
RIP GG community, 2001-2008.
Joshua Dallman
Former GarageGames Game Producer (2 years)
Indie Game Developer (5 years)
Web: http://www.redthumbgames.com
Blog: http://redthumbgames.wordpress.com/
"Many people have moved on, or graduated, if you will... one rarely hears from any of these people as they are running their successful companies, many still based on Torque technologies."
Speaking of developers who have moved on but are still using Torque, this is my last blog here -- this new site design settles it. It's about more than just web development decisions -- the new site design reflects the new attitude of the company, and I won't support it if it doesn't support indie games. The new IAC-funded guys running GG have amnesia when it comes to what GG was all about when it was founded. Look at the original GG logo:
See what it says right there on the logo? INDEPENDENT GAMES.
So where are the independent games and support thereof? Let's see what has GG done to support indepedent games with this new site:
(1) Removed of all the community-created games from the game store, taking it from over 50 games to less than 15
(2) Removed the community-created games "Powered by Torque" page
(3) Removed the engine-specific community-made games on the engine pages
(4) Removed all information on how to get published with GG
(5) Removed the indie game snapshots section
(6) Removed the and artist's corner snapshots section
(7) Removed game store games from the front page
(8) Buried the game store in the developer store where it'll never be found
With the lack of any new publishing of independent games except on the sparsely populated InstantAction, there's only one place left to promote any independent games I make, and that's with a developer interview that'll be up for a week and then forgotten, if I'm lucky to land the interview at all. Nice parting prize, but not nearly enough.
I've long been a champion of indie developers and their games. It seems that no one at GarageGames cares about these things anymore. On the whole site redesign team, there isn't one person with an indie perspective pulling for indies. Programmer, check. Graphic designer, check. Business analyst, check. QA, check. Actual game developer... oddly missing. Kind of funny (in a sad way) since the whole site is supposed to be designed for actual game developers.
The whole of the GarageGames community was to encourage people to make games (buy a GG engine, use the GG community, get motivated, share war stories, and get that game made, even if it was just a prototype or experiment). Where's the encouragement now when there's no place for that game to go once it's done? Where are the independent games on this site? Not even a "Powered by Torque" page or dev snapshots anymore? And the community game site "Great Games Experiment" has been totally abandoned by GG, which would have been at least some consolation as a place to put and promote games before GG expunged any evidence of their existence from this site.
On top of removing independent games from an independent game and development site, community features to support developers were an afterthought to Torque product promotion:
- no RSS
- no dev snapshot
- killed help wanted
- took out all team based interactions
- no associate tags
- no associate list
- took out all lore from the past on the company section
- no information on how to get published
- can't edit
- can't follow or be notified of blog comments and threads
- forum and resource contribution links removed from profile
- took out past work products on profile
- took out companies involved in from profile
- no profile or projects pics
- resources are a mess
- news has been eliminated
- no dashboard for what's new in community
- forums have been decimated
- no TDN
- etc.
Further participation in this once robust and thriving community is pointless. With Alexa rankings that have gone from 12,000 to 40,000 in the past year (a huge slide down), this new socially hostile site design should solidify the insignificance of continuing to participate in this declining community.
Talk is cheap -- it costs nothing to type the words "we care about the community and we're listening" (and we keep hearing that in response to this bungle). Action is what's meaningful, and by GG's actions they could care less about the community, as long as those Torque products have the best sales pages and access possible. Their only response to all this is "fixes are coming" but fixes would have been coming anyway -- they haven't reacted to our reaction at all. Hence, they aren't listening or don't truly care no matter how many times they try to spin things and type that they do. Or worse -- they're listening and they do care, but because they're not small-time developers like us anymore, they don't understand what all the fuss is about.
GG isn't dead, but the community is. Even if the community cares about GG, GG has to care about the community, and by their actions (not their words), they don't. Even if the community cares about indie games, GG has to care about indie games for there to be real support with muscle behind it, and by their actions they don't.
I'll see you guys over at http://forums.indiegamer.com. If you're serious about indie game development and community, I suggest you all level up and make the switch yourselves. If anyone has other suggestions for game dev communities to check out, post them here.
RIP GG community, 2001-2008.
Joshua Dallman
Former GarageGames Game Producer (2 years)
Indie Game Developer (5 years)
Web: http://www.redthumbgames.com
Blog: http://redthumbgames.wordpress.com/
About the author
#42
With that said, I'm glad to see Josh brought up the halt of games publication. It certainly doesn't feel like GG is in the business of lifting up the little guy any more. That's a hard (and probably unprofitable) service to provide, so it doesn't surprise me. Disappoints me for sure though.
Props to GG, however, for trying to move up in terms of its product and client base. Hopefully I can move up with you. :)
01/15/2009 (9:36 pm)
Certainly the site is now more GG-business oriented than indie community oriented. I'll lose a small bit of web traffic myself in the lack of a "Powered by Torque" page linking to my site.With that said, I'm glad to see Josh brought up the halt of games publication. It certainly doesn't feel like GG is in the business of lifting up the little guy any more. That's a hard (and probably unprofitable) service to provide, so it doesn't surprise me. Disappoints me for sure though.
Props to GG, however, for trying to move up in terms of its product and client base. Hopefully I can move up with you. :)
#43
On a lighter note...
Thank you Brian, J.C., Gareth for the understanding and support. GG isn't going anywhere and neither will the community. There are too many people doing cool stuff and offering constructive feedback with a positive attitude for that. Certainly we're not happy with the status quo on the community end of the site. Of course we're working overtime listening to your feedback and implementing more changes and improvements. I hope you'll all give it time and give us some trust.
@Chris Jorgenson: The Powered by Torque page will be coming back...it just didn't make the cut for this first iteration. We most certainly are in the business of lifting up the little guy, but that's an effort we expect to be shared with developers. There's only so much we can do on our own.
01/15/2009 (11:31 pm)
@Josh Dallman: I'm dissapointed in you. You have emails for everyone at GG, but instead of contacting any of us, you're just spewing acid here and on indiegamer. Cool, man. Very cool. Community dead? Dead for you perhaps...we'll see. Personally, I'm just hoping you keep your word about this being your last post. Goodbye Josh Dallman...On a lighter note...
Thank you Brian, J.C., Gareth for the understanding and support. GG isn't going anywhere and neither will the community. There are too many people doing cool stuff and offering constructive feedback with a positive attitude for that. Certainly we're not happy with the status quo on the community end of the site. Of course we're working overtime listening to your feedback and implementing more changes and improvements. I hope you'll all give it time and give us some trust.
@Chris Jorgenson: The Powered by Torque page will be coming back...it just didn't make the cut for this first iteration. We most certainly are in the business of lifting up the little guy, but that's an effort we expect to be shared with developers. There's only so much we can do on our own.
#44
Overall, I hadn't said anything up to now because I thought it'd be fair (and wise) to wait and see, cause I couldn't believe gg was gonna keep the new site as is since it's obvious it's much more featureless in comparison to the old guard.
I have to totally agree on the Great games experiment comment though because I was thinking the exactly same thing a few weeks ago, that things been forgotten about ages ago and you'll be lucky if anyone finds/plays your game there (including flash ones).
Overall, it's an interesting period for gg and an eventful start to 2009. I'm in the wait and see camp, but I wouldn't advise anyone hold their breath too long either way... **Meaning new things can take time to mature**
I'm also somewhat equally surprised by the lack of patience that seems to be on display lately, oh well, I guess we can all learn something from these past few days...
01/15/2009 (11:58 pm)
I have to admit I was surprise to see some many (practically all) community based features missing (I expected some to be missing, since new designs need to be iterated over time sometimes). Cosmetically, I like the header, I think the middle content background could do with some colour on the sides or something, but I can live with it as it is, it's the community features that need to be addressed, and I rather hoped for improvements (more ways to showcase games, better notification of latest response rather then every new post coming to your email, better vetting of blog post's maybe allowing users to remove or report spam posts so they don't take the spotlight from the good ones etc etc etc) rather then missing ones!Overall, I hadn't said anything up to now because I thought it'd be fair (and wise) to wait and see, cause I couldn't believe gg was gonna keep the new site as is since it's obvious it's much more featureless in comparison to the old guard.
I have to totally agree on the Great games experiment comment though because I was thinking the exactly same thing a few weeks ago, that things been forgotten about ages ago and you'll be lucky if anyone finds/plays your game there (including flash ones).
Overall, it's an interesting period for gg and an eventful start to 2009. I'm in the wait and see camp, but I wouldn't advise anyone hold their breath too long either way... **Meaning new things can take time to mature**
I'm also somewhat equally surprised by the lack of patience that seems to be on display lately, oh well, I guess we can all learn something from these past few days...
#45
Now if that was because resources had been diverted to engine upgrades, new offerings, etc, that's perfectly understandable. And there's nothing villainous in wanting to attract customers that are more likely to have success than buy an engine and quit, if that's the desire. There's also no requirement for a customer to hear any justification for any action GG takes. As far as I'm concerned, I bought an engine and the rest is frosting. But I think when folks get used to a certain amount of personal connection to another developer within the company, it's hard to see the attention taper off -- be it real or just perception.
Anyhow, I give you lots of props for coming onto the site and responding to all the posts. I actually think the new site makes a lot of sense. I can just see the same trend other folks think they're seeing as well. I'm hoping to slowly grow into a "real" or "successful" indie developer myself. Seeing the company push toward greater heights in no way threatens me. It makes me want to push harder to keep up. :)
01/16/2009 (2:35 am)
@Brett: I probably shouldn't have resorted to such a vague phrase as "the little guy." Sloppy posting on my part. In general, my observation from personal experience is that GG shifted focus, coincidentally or not, around the time of the IAC purchase. The games store stopped adding games, there was a "contest" to get a contract for IA rather than just an open submission process, and the amount of GG employee attention per developer seemed to go down.Now if that was because resources had been diverted to engine upgrades, new offerings, etc, that's perfectly understandable. And there's nothing villainous in wanting to attract customers that are more likely to have success than buy an engine and quit, if that's the desire. There's also no requirement for a customer to hear any justification for any action GG takes. As far as I'm concerned, I bought an engine and the rest is frosting. But I think when folks get used to a certain amount of personal connection to another developer within the company, it's hard to see the attention taper off -- be it real or just perception.
Anyhow, I give you lots of props for coming onto the site and responding to all the posts. I actually think the new site makes a lot of sense. I can just see the same trend other folks think they're seeing as well. I'm hoping to slowly grow into a "real" or "successful" indie developer myself. Seeing the company push toward greater heights in no way threatens me. It makes me want to push harder to keep up. :)
#46
Another thing, people who have been members of the site for a year or two, and who are only members of the site because they're employees, really have no concept of what GG was at the start. When you start pissing off the "old hands," then you've lost your direction. IAC purchased GG for what GG was. GG subsequently changed. Why in the world would you change what had obviously been such a successful business model that it caused such a huge company to invest so many millions? That's stupidity.
Anyway, I'm sticking around. Just figured I'd say something.
01/16/2009 (5:03 am)
I think Josh was spot on with some of his comments. What amazes me is how GG is so lightly ignoring some of the "big names" in this community. These are the people who actually put the work into the engine, which GG subsequently rolled into release and called their own. We're hearing over and over and over about how hard GG works on improving the engine, but most of what you see is the incorporation of community resources. On top of that, GG made the bold claim that stock TGEA included features that were really only available through third parties, such as Ubiq Visuals' SSAO. I mean, wtf?Another thing, people who have been members of the site for a year or two, and who are only members of the site because they're employees, really have no concept of what GG was at the start. When you start pissing off the "old hands," then you've lost your direction. IAC purchased GG for what GG was. GG subsequently changed. Why in the world would you change what had obviously been such a successful business model that it caused such a huge company to invest so many millions? That's stupidity.
Anyway, I'm sticking around. Just figured I'd say something.
#47
Anyway, back to my dark corner...
01/16/2009 (5:20 am)
One small addition to my previous comment. Torque will never stand up to the AAA game engines out there, plain and simple. If you lose your community you might as well close the company, because the community is what makes you who you are.Anyway, back to my dark corner...
#48
Here's a repost of my issues:
###
Let's see what has GG done to support indepedent games with this new site:
(1) Removed of all the community-created games from the game store, taking it from over 50 games to less than 15
(2) Removed the community-created games "Powered by Torque" page
(3) Removed the engine-specific community-made games on the engine pages
(4) Removed all information on how to get published with GG
(5) Removed the indie game snapshots section
(6) Removed the and artist's corner snapshots section
(7) Removed game store games from the front page
(8) Buried the game store in the developer store where it'll never be found
###
And I actually forgot two more points to 1-8 above:
(9) Removed the Game Store front page and replaced it with a database list of games
(10) No more gamer newsletter informing of new indie games published (not that they're publishing any indie games anyway)
It wouldn't be such a big deal if the only thing they did was remove games that weren't selling from the game store. Instead they removed all indie games from the website (see 1-10 above). It's like these games never existed. And it's because of these games that the engines and community are where they are today -- and how are they rewarded? By being totally expunged from memory.
If I was an outsider (an average community member) and left the community because of the new site design alone, it might be over-reacting. But as a producer at GarageGames for 2 years I have felt the company trend away from indies over time -- these recent actions only confirmed the trend that was already happening, and it was the final straw for me. I will not support an indie game company that doesn't itself support indie games.
I was asked why I didn't email them instead of posting publically -- well they didn't listen to me championing for indies while I worked there, so why would they listen to me as an external 3rd party? They had me stop publishing indie games at 50 titles (a fact of public record), but I would have loved to have published so many more. Unfortunately, my focus shifted to InstantAction, which is a non-platform for the average developer (my own $20k game was rejected, after being funded by them no less -- if I don't have a chance there, what chance does the average developer?). I would have loved to see the game store get its own website, banner ads, more promotion -- basically anything to help promote indies and their games. Instead, other than publishing the games themselves (which they've now stopped), the game store got no promotion -- then when there were no sales, they are blaming the games instead of their own lack of marketing (and with IAC behind them, it's not like they lack marketing muscle or resources). And they didn't just blame the games, they punished them by removing them from the site. Right, so publish some games, do no promotion of them, then when they don't sell in huge numbers, blame the games instead of your own lack of promoting them. Makes perfect sense.
01/16/2009 (8:52 am)
I'm saddened by the loss of community features on the GarageGames site, but what made me leave the community is GG's lack of support for indie games themselves (not just community site features). If that support comes back then so may I, but I don't expect that to happen. GG has shown their true colors with regard to indie support in this latest site upgrade.Here's a repost of my issues:
###
Let's see what has GG done to support indepedent games with this new site:
(1) Removed of all the community-created games from the game store, taking it from over 50 games to less than 15
(2) Removed the community-created games "Powered by Torque" page
(3) Removed the engine-specific community-made games on the engine pages
(4) Removed all information on how to get published with GG
(5) Removed the indie game snapshots section
(6) Removed the and artist's corner snapshots section
(7) Removed game store games from the front page
(8) Buried the game store in the developer store where it'll never be found
###
And I actually forgot two more points to 1-8 above:
(9) Removed the Game Store front page and replaced it with a database list of games
(10) No more gamer newsletter informing of new indie games published (not that they're publishing any indie games anyway)
It wouldn't be such a big deal if the only thing they did was remove games that weren't selling from the game store. Instead they removed all indie games from the website (see 1-10 above). It's like these games never existed. And it's because of these games that the engines and community are where they are today -- and how are they rewarded? By being totally expunged from memory.
If I was an outsider (an average community member) and left the community because of the new site design alone, it might be over-reacting. But as a producer at GarageGames for 2 years I have felt the company trend away from indies over time -- these recent actions only confirmed the trend that was already happening, and it was the final straw for me. I will not support an indie game company that doesn't itself support indie games.
I was asked why I didn't email them instead of posting publically -- well they didn't listen to me championing for indies while I worked there, so why would they listen to me as an external 3rd party? They had me stop publishing indie games at 50 titles (a fact of public record), but I would have loved to have published so many more. Unfortunately, my focus shifted to InstantAction, which is a non-platform for the average developer (my own $20k game was rejected, after being funded by them no less -- if I don't have a chance there, what chance does the average developer?). I would have loved to see the game store get its own website, banner ads, more promotion -- basically anything to help promote indies and their games. Instead, other than publishing the games themselves (which they've now stopped), the game store got no promotion -- then when there were no sales, they are blaming the games instead of their own lack of marketing (and with IAC behind them, it's not like they lack marketing muscle or resources). And they didn't just blame the games, they punished them by removing them from the site. Right, so publish some games, do no promotion of them, then when they don't sell in huge numbers, blame the games instead of your own lack of promoting them. Makes perfect sense.
#49
http://www.garagegames.com/community/blogs/view/15304
"I'm not sure where or how you got this impression, but it's incorrect. We're still totally open to publishing any game on GG.com... there was a time earlier this year where we just didn't have the manpower to handle both IA and GG.com submissions, so we had to place priority on IA, but it was never our intent to offer IA as the only publishing avenue for Indies. Until a more elegant solution is available, the GG.com Games Store is a pretty tried and true way to reach gamers looking for Indie titles." - Brett Seyler, GG, August 2008
Really? Tried and true? That's why you all but shut the store down and aren't taking any new submissions?
Need further proof that GG isn't interested in promoting and supporting indie games anymore? This past October GG sent out a press release to look for new developers to work with, but didn't bother to solicit their own community of independent developers. This news didn't show up anywhere on GG.com and was probably missed by most of its community:
http://www.gamedaily.com/articles/news/garagegames-to-fund-startup-studios-worki...
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=20653
Article quote: "We're seeing a lot of larger studios cutting back on costs and thus forced to let go of great talent," said CEO Josh Williams. "There's always opportunity for good developers to start anew and we're looking to give these guys a shot to get back to their roots on a small team making games for a cutting edge platform."
Read carefully about exactly who they're looking to give a shot -- it's not indie developers. They're looking for non-indies to become indie; former corporate game developers to cross over and become the new breed of GG indie developers. Which is fine, but where's the call to action to the existing and loyal indie community? The community was never informed of this opportunity so they were never even given the chance. Which is exactly how it was planned, because the community has no chance of getting on InstantAction anyway.
Another quote: "We'll be making trips to Austin, Vancouver, and Seattle to talk with interested parties over the next 4-6 weeks," said Joe Maruschak, GM of GarageGames' Studios. "Developers interested in meeting with us or opening a conversation to talk about working on InstantAction titles should get in touch with us as soon as possible."
How many GG community members are in Austin, Vancouver, and Seattle who missed this opportunity because they were never told the opportunity existed? Why the heck would you build up a thriving indie game development community, the look exclusively outside of it for new projects without even telling your existing community?
Even IGC (Indie Game Conference) got killed, which was a GREAT way for indies to get exposure -- tons of press was invited, major gaming news outlets would cover games, there was even a "Best Game of IGC Award" to help with exposure, to say nothing of the networking opportunities. GG didn't make profit on it, but it was the grassroots support of indies that counted. That support has all but dried up.
01/16/2009 (8:53 am)
When community member Jonathon Stevens posted a blog and complained that GG wasn't publishing indie stuff anymore and that due to that decision he was ceasing work on his indie project, Brett at GG specifically said that the game store would continue to be a place to publish games and "reach gamers looking for Indie titles":http://www.garagegames.com/community/blogs/view/15304
"I'm not sure where or how you got this impression, but it's incorrect. We're still totally open to publishing any game on GG.com... there was a time earlier this year where we just didn't have the manpower to handle both IA and GG.com submissions, so we had to place priority on IA, but it was never our intent to offer IA as the only publishing avenue for Indies. Until a more elegant solution is available, the GG.com Games Store is a pretty tried and true way to reach gamers looking for Indie titles." - Brett Seyler, GG, August 2008
Really? Tried and true? That's why you all but shut the store down and aren't taking any new submissions?
Need further proof that GG isn't interested in promoting and supporting indie games anymore? This past October GG sent out a press release to look for new developers to work with, but didn't bother to solicit their own community of independent developers. This news didn't show up anywhere on GG.com and was probably missed by most of its community:
http://www.gamedaily.com/articles/news/garagegames-to-fund-startup-studios-worki...
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=20653
Article quote: "We're seeing a lot of larger studios cutting back on costs and thus forced to let go of great talent," said CEO Josh Williams. "There's always opportunity for good developers to start anew and we're looking to give these guys a shot to get back to their roots on a small team making games for a cutting edge platform."
Read carefully about exactly who they're looking to give a shot -- it's not indie developers. They're looking for non-indies to become indie; former corporate game developers to cross over and become the new breed of GG indie developers. Which is fine, but where's the call to action to the existing and loyal indie community? The community was never informed of this opportunity so they were never even given the chance. Which is exactly how it was planned, because the community has no chance of getting on InstantAction anyway.
Another quote: "We'll be making trips to Austin, Vancouver, and Seattle to talk with interested parties over the next 4-6 weeks," said Joe Maruschak, GM of GarageGames' Studios. "Developers interested in meeting with us or opening a conversation to talk about working on InstantAction titles should get in touch with us as soon as possible."
How many GG community members are in Austin, Vancouver, and Seattle who missed this opportunity because they were never told the opportunity existed? Why the heck would you build up a thriving indie game development community, the look exclusively outside of it for new projects without even telling your existing community?
Even IGC (Indie Game Conference) got killed, which was a GREAT way for indies to get exposure -- tons of press was invited, major gaming news outlets would cover games, there was even a "Best Game of IGC Award" to help with exposure, to say nothing of the networking opportunities. GG didn't make profit on it, but it was the grassroots support of indies that counted. That support has all but dried up.
#50
I am not jumping to conclusions and would love to be proved wrong. It would mean my own Torque games would get more exposure, and possibly sold through their site. It would mean my own studio would have a chance at some development funding. I would love to be wrong and get more exposure and sales. I'd be crazy if I didn't. I'm doing my best to give the perspective of the average, small indie developer because that's who I am myself and will always champion. And GG has turned their back on our kind. A great engine alone doesn't cut it -- if you think it does, you're completely missing out on the big picture. This is an industry, and as an industry we need support, not just a product. GG had this kind of grassroots support back when they themselves were small and indie. Now they are big and corporate and things have changed. They've made some decisions against the interests of small indie developers, but that doesn't mean it's too late.
01/16/2009 (8:56 am)
So what are the future opportunities for indies publishing with GG? Basically, given points 1-10 above, they're none. GG isn't interested in helping the small developer get exposure anymore. Which is fine, because in 2001 when GG started, the small developers needed GG, but there are so many opportunities, platforms, and alternatives in 2009, that indies no longer need GG.I am not jumping to conclusions and would love to be proved wrong. It would mean my own Torque games would get more exposure, and possibly sold through their site. It would mean my own studio would have a chance at some development funding. I would love to be wrong and get more exposure and sales. I'd be crazy if I didn't. I'm doing my best to give the perspective of the average, small indie developer because that's who I am myself and will always champion. And GG has turned their back on our kind. A great engine alone doesn't cut it -- if you think it does, you're completely missing out on the big picture. This is an industry, and as an industry we need support, not just a product. GG had this kind of grassroots support back when they themselves were small and indie. Now they are big and corporate and things have changed. They've made some decisions against the interests of small indie developers, but that doesn't mean it's too late.
#51
Not purchasing anything else from GG until I see how they hash this out with members and former members of the community here.
01/16/2009 (7:32 pm)
Wow; I'll have to keep an eye on GG's response to all of this. I've owned a copy of TGB for quite awhile, but haven't had time to seriously develop with it. I just found out about all of this; what happened to letting us know about major changes like this in the Newsletter I'm signed up for?Not purchasing anything else from GG until I see how they hash this out with members and former members of the community here.
#52
This morning when I saw this thread I was about to jump of the window (1st floor).
Personally, GG for me is Torque. It’s an engine that I’m using to make games! Sure GG has a ton of other things going on, but for me it’s Torque.
As a scripter (not experience programmer) Torque is the best solution that I am aware of. I could never imagine that I can make a game by myself and get it to publish on the big portals.
HOWEVER, I didn’t do it by myself. I did it with a ton of help from a great community that literally fixed everything that was broken. And when I say literally I mean posting code that fix bugs. There is no way I could have done without the community. NO WAY!
The forum is just as important as the Engine. I don’t see any reason to take it offline and I am willing to stand outside GG’s office in the snow and demonstrate to ”bring it back!”. I don’t care what it looks like. What banner and what color. I don’t even care if you can edit or not. I’m just interested in the content of these threads. Including all the legacy threads and the docs. This knowledge base is extremely valuable.
In my personal experience GG employees and management has been more than happy to help a 1 man indie like myself. They did go above and beyond to help me get my first game out and they DO CARE.
Now it’s true that GG is growing but if It means better engine and more platforms then I embrace that growth. My new game runs on PC/Mac/iPhone. I don’t know anything about Mac/ Cocoa/xCode or objective C and yet the game runs on the iPhone. So for me this is still the best solution for a small indie.
Off course… I could have never got it to work without the community forum so please bring it back.
01/16/2009 (8:04 pm)
Brett, thanks for the reassuring respond.This morning when I saw this thread I was about to jump of the window (1st floor).
Personally, GG for me is Torque. It’s an engine that I’m using to make games! Sure GG has a ton of other things going on, but for me it’s Torque.
As a scripter (not experience programmer) Torque is the best solution that I am aware of. I could never imagine that I can make a game by myself and get it to publish on the big portals.
HOWEVER, I didn’t do it by myself. I did it with a ton of help from a great community that literally fixed everything that was broken. And when I say literally I mean posting code that fix bugs. There is no way I could have done without the community. NO WAY!
The forum is just as important as the Engine. I don’t see any reason to take it offline and I am willing to stand outside GG’s office in the snow and demonstrate to ”bring it back!”. I don’t care what it looks like. What banner and what color. I don’t even care if you can edit or not. I’m just interested in the content of these threads. Including all the legacy threads and the docs. This knowledge base is extremely valuable.
In my personal experience GG employees and management has been more than happy to help a 1 man indie like myself. They did go above and beyond to help me get my first game out and they DO CARE.
Now it’s true that GG is growing but if It means better engine and more platforms then I embrace that growth. My new game runs on PC/Mac/iPhone. I don’t know anything about Mac/ Cocoa/xCode or objective C and yet the game runs on the iPhone. So for me this is still the best solution for a small indie.
Off course… I could have never got it to work without the community forum so please bring it back.
#53
Thanks guys. I guess I won't be standing in the snow!
01/16/2009 (8:24 pm)
hey, I just saw the at least the tgb forum is back so I bet the iTGB forum is on it's way back too.Thanks guys. I guess I won't be standing in the snow!
#54
This whole mess of a posting is simply all about publishing. I take the site criticisms with a grain of salt because yeah stuff is missing, but of course they are going to try and add it back in, and perhaps implement it even better this time around. As for everything else, it is just a big complaint about not having a publishing avenue on the GG site anymore. While this is sad in some respects it just doesn't seem like a big deal. There are so many options when it comes to publishing and it is definitely important to understand what could arguably called the marketing side of game development. But let's be honest. The community is about development, its about the tech. The community is a place to learn how to develop better games, not how to sell them necessarily.
Maybe Josh can start his own site dedicated to that side of things. I don't know. I just don't think it just isn't as crucial to the health of the Torque Community as he is making it out to be, although some might disagree with me.
If your game is good enough you will get it published somewhere, there are no lack of portals. You may get some money, some exposure, or nothing at all. If you can't get published maybe it is time to come back to the Torque community and learn some new techniques, I am sure someone will be around to help you out.
01/16/2009 (9:50 pm)
@Eyal Erez You sir have it right.This whole mess of a posting is simply all about publishing. I take the site criticisms with a grain of salt because yeah stuff is missing, but of course they are going to try and add it back in, and perhaps implement it even better this time around. As for everything else, it is just a big complaint about not having a publishing avenue on the GG site anymore. While this is sad in some respects it just doesn't seem like a big deal. There are so many options when it comes to publishing and it is definitely important to understand what could arguably called the marketing side of game development. But let's be honest. The community is about development, its about the tech. The community is a place to learn how to develop better games, not how to sell them necessarily.
Maybe Josh can start his own site dedicated to that side of things. I don't know. I just don't think it just isn't as crucial to the health of the Torque Community as he is making it out to be, although some might disagree with me.
If your game is good enough you will get it published somewhere, there are no lack of portals. You may get some money, some exposure, or nothing at all. If you can't get published maybe it is time to come back to the Torque community and learn some new techniques, I am sure someone will be around to help you out.
#55
It could be that Steam or Big Fish, or even self-publishing are better opportunities that GG.com is now. We are focused on tech over games. That's plainly obvious looking at the site and site activity over the last few years. Does that mean we're not open to publishing games on GG.com anymore? Not at all, but it really needs to be worthwhile, just as it's always been. We're not just going to publish a game because it's made with Torque. It should be fun to play and visually appealing. If we publish a game and it's not selling for an extended period of time, we'll pull it down. This isn't anti-indie, it's the real world and it's much better than it was in 2002 and 2003 for indies. There are tons of options now, and digital distribution is the norm. There are way more gamer eyeballs on the web, and indie games have plenty of room to thrive, whether they are published on GG.com or not.
01/16/2009 (10:31 pm)
Wow...Josh went ahead and broke his promise already. I'm pretty much 100% in agreement with Mark's post here (and thanks Mark for chiming in). If you want to publish a game made with Torque, or any other engine, there's no shortage of places to do it. It could be that Steam or Big Fish, or even self-publishing are better opportunities that GG.com is now. We are focused on tech over games. That's plainly obvious looking at the site and site activity over the last few years. Does that mean we're not open to publishing games on GG.com anymore? Not at all, but it really needs to be worthwhile, just as it's always been. We're not just going to publish a game because it's made with Torque. It should be fun to play and visually appealing. If we publish a game and it's not selling for an extended period of time, we'll pull it down. This isn't anti-indie, it's the real world and it's much better than it was in 2002 and 2003 for indies. There are tons of options now, and digital distribution is the norm. There are way more gamer eyeballs on the web, and indie games have plenty of room to thrive, whether they are published on GG.com or not.
#56
01/17/2009 (12:36 am)
The following has been fixed today: - Redirect URLs should now be working: HUGE thanks to Orion for his short-term solution.
- Missing forums have returned: iTorque, GreenEar, and Collada are all available. We also pulled Constructor out of the Artist Corner into its own category.
- International Sales: There is now a Country drop-down list on the billing information form, this should help our international customers.
- What's my password?!: There's a new reset password option on the login page in case you're having trouble logging in.
- TDN lives: You should be able to log into our online wiki once again.
- Download links have been added to resources: So now you can get all those files back.
- Return of Watched Threads: All of your previous watched blogs and threads have magically returned (don't worry, it won't remove any you may have marked as watched since the new site went up).
- Edit comments on forums and blogs: Fear typos and 1 am comments no more!
- Unread forum threads functionality is back: You can mark all forum posts as "read" so you can always log into the site later and see what's been happening in your absence.
- The Markup Lite cheat sheet is back: No more guessing to try to remember how to add a video or otherwise pretty-up your post. [li]Tweaked bulk accounts for educators: It should be easier now to manage student licenses if you are working for a school.
#57
01/27/2009 (8:21 am)
I find the info on this thread to be very disturbing. I have been working on a game using TGEA for about eight months now, and can see the finish line (www.rocketeergames.com). All these claims that GG is not interested in indies is starting to worry me, and that taking up TGEA for my project might have now been a waist of time and money... I am now seriously considering switching to another engine (Unity3D 2.5)....
Torque 3D Owner Tony Richards
If this is the new "highly efficient transparent community" website then I think someone forgot the "community" part (and you don't need a website to be transparent).
It's funny how many of the community features that I wanted (and subequently suggested that GG use for their new website), I was able to get via a combination of phpBB3, Joomla (or WordPress if you prefer), Trac and IRC.... off-the-shelf software with little or no requirements for customization except to customize the templates to make them prettier.
Don't blame the people... blame the process. Here's how it should have gone:
Highly Efficent? Check!
Transparent? Check!
Community?
... (long pause) ...
Community?
... (long pause) ...
Hey guys, we're not done yet.
At any rate, I'm signing up on the IndieGamer forums and I'm already on IndieZen.org forums, Ogre3D forums and FreeGameDev.net forums... see ya on the flip side.