Torque 3D Sidebar - Pricing and Licensing CONTINUED

#41 No offense Matthias, but that seems a bit harsh on the indies.

#42 Uhm, since in this and, even more, in the previous post, the community seems to be underestimate from GG can I just put to your attention that ALSO with the new terrible new site implementation you're asking to the community "come on! Please! Instead of criticize try to be constructive and help us reporting what it's not functional and problem you're facing...
Ok let me say that it's a bit hard being productive not only having always to fix engine bugs you leaved but now also having to face this disaster (terrible loss in site functionalities) and take the time to report what it's not functional or buggy here too...

Sorry to post this way, I always tried to be constructive in my posts and here too in some way, just wanna have you GG thinking a bit about what mean the community here... and how much you're often asking to it, yeah we often are demanding to GG but you to GG to your community, remember this please...

#43 My Two Cents...

I don't have two dimes to rub together, but I'm doing the best that I can. I'm a one-man show with a budget that literally receives periodic infusions of spare change. I'm currently using TGE because I made the decision quite some time ago that the game I'm currently working on would not benefit enough from the added feature set of TGEA to warrant me going through and learning the differences between the two. As my current project nears completion, I'm actually beginning to pay more attention to what my options are for the next one. I hope that the announcement of a new Torque version eventually becomes a cause for celebration.

However, I look back on the things that made TGE irresistible and I become concerned. Am I going to have all the same problems over again? Am I going to be able to afford the latest version so that I can have all the same problems over again? On the other hand, the licensing, not the cost, was the primary attractor of TGE for me. I sincerely hope that you guys decide to maintain the non-restricted no-royalties structure of your licensing for Torque 3D. I don't know where I'm going to get the extra money, but it's worth it to me.

BUT... If you're going to charge me an arm and a leg for the next version, there is one feature that it absolutely must have. I don't need physics built in. I don't need the latest and greatest terrain system. I don't need support for every 3D format on earth. Of course, I want those things, but the one thing that I absolutely demand is much simpler. Documentation. I want real non-wiki-based documentation.

You guys cannot possibly have developed something as large as a completely overhauled next-generation game engine without ever writing anything down. All things considered, how hard could it be to get the team together and spend a few weeks compiling and proofreading their notes. The single biggest hurdle that I have faced thus far has been the lack of available information.

Half of what I needed to know I found after spending days or weeks browsing the forums. The other half I had to figure out for myself because the documentation simply did not exist. I realize that TGE is no longer officially supported, but if I'm going to upgrade, I want to know that the engine that I'm buying comes with COMPLETE documentation.

I will have to stretch my budget beyond the breaking point if the price of Torque 3D climbs above $1,000. However, I'll do it without blinking an eye if I can buy Torque 3D knowing with a fair degree of confidence that, when I run into a problem, I'll be able to find something in the documentation from which I will be able to derive a solution.



Thanks for listening,

Bob Pasekoff

#44 Sorry to reasurect this thread Brett, but it was necessary.

First off, I want to preface what I say with:
I think you are doing a fantastic job here at GG, and I have the utmost respect for you. Your job is probably the hardest one here.

A note for you to consider:

In some of your posts, you come off a little arogant. I don't think you meant it that way, but it's something you need to watch as they lead to most of the flames you got.
Just letting you know.

As for the reason I am bringing this blog back...

I stated it was inappropriate for you to ask us at this time what we would be willing to pay for T3D. You gave me a bunch of reasons why it was. I want to explain my position (now that I've had time to think about it) so that you understand where my comment came from. I still think it was premature for you to ask us the quesion of this blog. Why?
Let's look at what we "know".

T3D will come with:
1. New racing starter and racing game fixes made by those who made the awesome mini 37 game.
2. New content by Apparatus.
3. T3D is an upgrade of tgea 1.8.0
4. ????
That's all we know.
We don't know if:
1. [u]All[/u] of the bugs in 1.8 have been fixed. For all we know, they are still there.
2. T3D is as simple to use as tge. Tge is drop dead easy for someone to make a prototype with in a very short time. Tgea has never been that easy.
3. The folder structure for T3D are setup in a way to make dropping other engines into torque with just a wrapper and mabe a little code. Things like: outside physics engines, other scripting languages, etc...
4. Will dts objects just drop in and work like they do in tge? Or are we going to have to do the "trial and error" routine forever to get them to work without having to stand on our heads and pray.

I know there are things planned that you aren't going to talk about. I can't say I blame you for Not putting out information that the community can beat you about the head and body with until you cry uncle. The thing is, this blog should have waited until WE as a community had more information. With this little information, and with the questions still left unanswered, I would say T3D is worth about $350.00. A little more if all the bugs are worked out. Those who have stated higher amounts eather know more than the rest of the community, or are just being silly.
I am certain all the programmers at GG are working as hard as they can to get T3D into shape and make it something that GG can call it's "flagship engine". I mean no discredit to them or you at all. I just think this blog should have waited until more information had been given.

#45 I must agree were being told "Hey here's a price hike!" and the only reason given is that more money is needed to support the company.

Not to discredit the engine I love it, but with the documentation that is offered, even with the TGE Book that was released, it hardly helped with designing a full game.
I'm an artist who has been forced to learn code, and has grown a little confident in oneself as a artist/coder because of Torque. I've had more help from users within the Community pages more than I have from Torque Documentation.

So when I hear "Hey were jacking the price" my unfortuante response is "For what?" what exatcly are we going to gain from it that makes it worth 1k$.

I've finally entered a professional field and I don't mind the price hike as long as there is a quality return. I've seen the shaders that are being offered and I will say I am impressed, but what I want out of it is.
1. Documentation
2. A more flexible in game editor with many components taken from TGB. TGB's Behaviors are amazing and I could see something like that helping with A.I. that could be applied to a NPC and adjusted with a simple menu.
3. New Export support. "I'll explain this one!" I don't mean support for more obscure engines, I mean support for expanded animations exporting and better flexibility. The blended animations, which are nice are still difficult for people to work with, and the collision setup! good god by now a per pixel detection should be employed removing the full need for a collision system. If just this one thing were added I would definetly put hand to wallet and dish out the dough for it.
4. Physics and A.I. I think with a price hike, it is time to gives us physics and A.I. Physics- So many casual games have slowly been relying on physics for either puzzlers, or contraption games. Other game genres rely upon physics now to expand the world and player interaction. A.I. - With A.I. comes a lot or programming, something that is difficult and a lot of work for coders. What about the hobbyist who isn't major in code? Like me, with what is offered in torque by now it is hardly acceptable, though the path finding is nice, it hasn't changed, quark the orc still runs around the level, he has been since he was dropped in the FPS Demo. When I first picked it up I expected better AI implmenation, course I didn't argue about it because the engine was still young. But! as time went on, nothing expanded with the AI, people did release free resources which is nice and all but I'm relying on the developers of the engine to give us AI, not just the people in the community!

Sorry if this sounds a little crass, I do treasure the GarageGame Engines, I just want to know that the price hike still has in mind us little investors that have held support for the engine, that with increse in price comes increse in quality, and not just in one field, raising the price and saying here are a bunch of preset shaders added to it doesn't sound like a great benefit.

Robert Morris

#46 Price wise would depend on whats going to be there. So I'll give you a price and show what I'd expect.

I'd go for $650 ($350 upgrade for TGEA people) provided:
- Lots of documentation, especially some small tutorials and/or video tutorials. Even the high-end engines that charge thousands lack this stuff.
- More robust shader support (give ShaderGen everything you have, its a very unique solution that could be a selling point if you give it polish)
- Streamlined tools (Update the world builder, shader designer app, multi-platform debuggers, etc)

I'd really like to see GarageGames do online classes much like GameInstitute on how to use everything. Start with basic classes like TorqueScript, C++ Programming, Art Development. Consider breaking the courses up into 4 or 5 week segments, charge in the neighborhood of $200 to $400 a person or more depending on the subject. This kind of thing isn't being done anywhere as far as I know.

#47

Quote:I'd really like to see GarageGames do online classes

This was tried. Do a search for torque school. I don't know if it continues or not tho.

#48 Documentation. Yes. Big, fat PDFs of just reference, and an option to purchase printed books. One for each of sound, graphics, I/O would mean I don't have to juggle a gigantic tome (like one of my Cocoa books - yikes, it's heavy).

If they're laminated (pasta & sauce-proof), I'd pay extra :)

So reference books are my main wishes for the next generation of T2D and T3D. If you can squeeze in time for a cookbook-style manual ("How do I..." reference for 100+ common things in script), I'd buy that also.

#49 Myself and 2 other people are making MBO baseball with Torque 1.5. Its a tiny group who want to make a fun and realistic baseball MMO. We are making good progress. So far we have spent $1000 on it for original artwork and engine fees. That's not a small amount for household spending and the like. We really need to get into Torque 3D early enough so we dont waste development time. We would be much more likely to want to share revenue and things like that then fork over $1000 per seat.

I mean our wives will kill us.

#50 My one request for the new technology lies entirely in licensing. I would like to have my license purchase support the use of the engine for data visualization outside of a game. If this expansion of the license cannot be supported, then please explain the reasoning behind that decision. Thanks!

#51 Quick question... with the site update we lost the ability to upgrade from TGE to TGEA? or because I had TGE 1.4.2 I don't get any discount to upgrade to TGEA?

#52 Unity is great, but not everyone is going to pay their price point. The same will happen to Torque if the price gets bumped up that high. No one in this day and age seems to take into account that good products at lower prices sell better than great products at higher prices. Just take a look at Sony's Beta tape versus VHS tape - or how about the pricing mistakes of the PS3.... Now I know this is software, and not hardware - so the cost of manufacturing is minimal, especially considering the purchases would be downloads. In this economy, and all the indies and small businesses trying to juggle a budget and compete with the "giants" - an affordable solution would gain staggering popularity - and in effect financial profits for GG.

#53 I would have difficulty paying a $3000-$5000 price tag. It would take me longer to adopt Torque 3D. I am a brand new Indie and I just don't have the cash up front for that and all the other things I need. I already look for the bargain on every other tool...I'm Blender now, Modo later, 3ds Max and Maya a distant notion...it's Paint Shop Pro now, PhotoShop later... Buying Flash CS3 was a big purchase and Office Professional (WTF?!) was surprisingly expensive.

#54 Seemingly (thanks for popping me the link) they guys over at gamasutra have managed to get a little bit of info out ;)

250 for the cream of the cuppa, and 1k for the full drink.

will be interesting to see the full lists of the planned feature split...

#55 That sounds perfectly reasonable to me.