Torque 3D Sidebar - Pricing and Licensing
by Brett Seyler · 01/09/2009 (2:57 pm) · 370 comments
This is probably the most candid blog post I'll write all year. It's also likely to be quite long. I'm aiming here to communicate a lot of things and I'm hoping they come out in nice fluid arc, but we'll see. It's supposed to be about GG and you, but we might take some twists and turns getting there. I should also warn anyone who's willing to read through this that there are no clear answers in this blog, just thoughts and questions. While I'm sitting here starting to write this, I'm thinking about how much I like reading Warren Buffett's shareholder letters. I'm certainly not alone in admiring his frank, honest, pull-no-punches style. Buffett's customers are his shareholders, but I notice that very few companies write to their customers this way. What would it be like if they did?
I'm certainly not arrogant enough to draw any kind of comparison between me and the Sage of Omaha, but I really going to try to follow his example in candor and clear communication about business goals.
Most of you probably don't know that I did finance and investment work before joining GG. Though I've always been into games and technology my whole life, it's still a a very weird kind of transition to make from that button up world to the laid back, but hyper-competitve world of a startup software company. Obviously, GG is much more fun, but it's almost demanding in a lot of the same ways finance was for me. You might be surprised how much business is just business, and finding ways to succeed and get more done is universal across those kind of boundaries.
There are a bunch of subjects I'll likely wander around in this post, but the one that bears this post's title is the focus...
RUH-ROH! I can hear the alarm bells going off..."GG is raising prices! I knew it!!!!!!!!!!"
I'll just tear the Band-aid away quickly then. Torque 3D will have a higher price tag than GG'ers are used to from Torque. How much higher? I'm not sure yet to be honest...I've given it a lot of thought, but in the past few months, when I've looked to you guys for feedback, it's always been helpful and understanding, so I figured I'd push my luck and do it again =)
Here are the core principles for GG and Torque that I'm trying to stay true to in working this out:
(1) Make sure that Torque licensing is a sustainable business that allows for signicant reinvestment in the technology--enough to keep Torque at the forefront of modern game engines.
(2) Eat our own dog food. This means we use what we sell, reinforcing the need to reinvest in the technology.
(3) Leverage modern distribution options. This means web publishing, downloadable channels, and any other efforts that upset that status quo in publishing and put more money and control in the developer's hands.
(4) Remain an affordable option for the little guy.
Obviously there's a balance to be struck attempting to serve both (1) and (4). However, there may be less conflict than you'd think. For example, let me talk about (1) a little bit.
Why I'm not worried about Epic or AAA
We made a decision with Torque a long time ago not to compete head to head the top competition in the AAA space. That competitions has emerged in the past decade to be Epic's Unreal engine, first and foremost. While Torque can do a LOT of what Unreal can do, we're executing on a much different business model and strategy...part of it is idealistic, part's pragmatic.
The Unreal engine is driven by the needs of Epic's studio to deliver every year, without fail, on a game with the highest visual impact possible. They succeed, more or less, in doing this with Unreal Tournament and Gears of War. These huge budget AAA games subsidize the enormous cost of developing technology that keeps the games looking better than anything else. By extension, the Unreal engine is percieved as being the best technology at any given time. (Seem like circular logic? Keep reading.)Sure...there are disturbances in the force. Upstarts like Crytek or Gamebryo steal the limelight now and then, but let's be realistic, Unreal dominates AAA engine licensing. When I say AAA, I mean licensing for use in big budget AAA titles. If you're building a $10-$30M game, you're looking at Unreal first. It inspires confidence in your publisher (guaranteeing more money) and it says to the media and press that "this game is going to achieve a certain visual quality bar that you expect from games made with Unreal." This last part in particular is crucial to the hype-train that gets gamers to pay $60 for a game on release day.
Sound like any other industry you can think of? Come...let's all share in the let down and pretend we didn't just get screwed.
I'd be lying if I said I didn't admire Epic's success in both engine licensing and game development. They've figured out how the game is played and beat everyone under the current ruleset. My hat's off to them. But a lot of this blockbuster-game-driven perception about engines is crap IMO. The dirty little secret in AAA games is that great art, far more than tech, creates visual quality. Even so, "UE = visual superiority => best engine" is the common thinking in the games industry and no one--NO ONE--has been able to break Epic's stranglehold on this section of the middleware market for the better part of decade.
How would you change things if it were your desire to do so?
There are two paths that I see...
You can try to beat Epic at their own game. To do this you'd need a premiere game studio with huge budgets to consistently impress on developers and the press that Unreal is no longer the best performing engine tech around. This means truly high end tech and *really* high end artists that can push the technology's boundaries.
Crytek appears to be trying to execute on this strategy, and they've had some success. id, while a major innovator in game dev technology, appears only casually interested in upsetting the state of Epic's AAA middleware domination. Gamebryo has some good tech and a good marketing / sales team, but no dedicated studio to consistently test the tech and then demonstrate where they stack up next to Unreal or other AAA competitors, so I think they're doomed to fail in AAA. Valve plays a role similar to id. They appear to only casually pursuing licensing of their Source engine.
So that's it... Crytek is the only reasonable candidate to unseat Epic as the AAA engine licensing champion. Why don't I think that will happen? In order to do it, Crytek needs to do it year after year for a sustained period of time, and that demands a lot of money. Epic's makes financially successful games that subsidize the costs of developing their tech. Crytek, to date, has not.
Even for hardcore gamers and the press, it's not just about the good looks, it's also about being on the right platforms, being able to tell a good story in-game. Developers have to find the right gameplay hooks to make a game rewarding. As visually impressive as Crysis is (far more than any UE3 game IMO), the game lacked what was needed to achieve maintream (and financial) success. Minimum hardware requirements that were totally off the charts on the game's release didn't help much either.

Does it make sense for GarageGames to try to go to head-to-head with Epic in the same fashion? Well, maybe we'd consider it if the AAA engine licensing space were a growth market or currently underserved, but it's neither. AAA engine licensing has been a fairly stagnant market for years now and Epic'c never conceded more than about 50% of the available revenue, so I don't know about you, but doing bloody battle for a slice of a pie that isn't growing seems kind silly to me.
So, if not head-to-head with Epic, where does Torque fit? What's the angle? Well, our goal is not really to "beat" Epic, it's to change the game (in the "meta" sense of the word). We think it's dumb that games cost $60 and that the best selling games published by the biggest publishers all essentially answer to Walmart.
Games should be cheaper.
Gamers should have more variety.
Developers should feel comfortable taking more risks.
None of these are possible without upsetting the status quo. This is why we created Torque and put a $100 no royalties price tag on it in 2001. This is why we created InstantAction.com so that we could build our own audience and connect gamers to developers with no interference from publishers or retailers. Both efforts serve the same goal of making it easier (and more affordable) for developers to take risks.
Torque exists to provide developers (starting with our own game studio) with the means to take these kinds of risks, to create games that can achieve AAA-level visual quality, but with a focus on what makes games fun. We want our studio and you to innovate in ways that matter most to gamers. Portal didn't need next-gen visuals or a multi-million dollare engine to win over gamers. It could have easily been built with Torque. Just the same, Marble Blast Ultra didn't need super-high end rendering. To make the point even clearer, look at Phil Hassey's Galcon. Phil built this game in Python all by himself and it's currently one of the most played games on InstantAction.

We think this evolution, bridging the divide between developers and gamers, enabling greater risk taking at lower cost, is where the industry must go. The faster it gets there, the more Torque makes sense to a wider audience of game developers. As a company, we've always aimed to support platforms and technologies that make this happen faster. I put Steam, WiiWare, XBLA, PSN, id's Quakelive and InstantAction.com all on that list. In fact, without Steam, I doubt Valve could comfortably afford to take the kind or risks they do. We'd all, as gamers and game developers, be much worse off without if they hadn't bucked the system and created the most effective digital distribution platform on the planet. (Go Valve!)
Let's think again about the balance between enabling the little guy, and being in a position to reinvest in Torque and sustain this effort to encourage risk taking in games. Who do we mean by the little guy? Does a hobbyist who never publishes anything serve these goals? Probably not...let's talk about that...
We're building Torque to enable a particular set of developers: those who can persevere though the challenge of game development. This means outfits like Fro Games, Stickman Studios, Sickhead Games, and Tilted Mill to cite some recent examples. In the recent Game Developer profile on TGEA for the Front Line awards, I think they hit the nail on the head.


Are you one of these developers? A lot of you might not know yet. Some of you may not know whether you even want to push that hard or take that much time. You might be happy with game development as a curiousity and have no interest in ever publishing your work. This does not mean Torque is not for you.
Just as Photoshop, Flash, Max and Maya are built for professional use with professional licensees in mind, so is Torque. And just as plenty of amateurs and hobbyists use Adobe and Autodesk tools with no intention of making their work public, so will amateur and hobbyist Torque users. Still, often times, these tools make professionals of people who didn't know if they had what it in them, and we hope Torque does the same.
If we want Torque to effectively serve professionals and that set of developers who have the fortitude and talent to give it a real shot, we need to re-evaluate Torque's license fee. We can't do this effectively for $150 / seat, at least not with Torque 3D. Torque has thousands and thousands of licensees, but developing engine technology is very complicated and very expensive--certainly more complicated and expensive than developing games.
Attaching a $150 / seat price Torque has created a quality perception that does not do justice to Torque's capabilities. GarageGames could *easily* spin out a new business under a different banner and sell TGEA / Torque 3D right next to all the other major AAA engines for hundreds of thousands of dollars per title. Why don't we? Because it doesn't help us with (3) or (4). We'd be quickly assimilated into the tiny space left over by Epic and fighting tooth and nail with everyone else for 3-4 licensing tile deals per year. It wouldn't help us with games. It would disrupt the broken industry model. It wouldn't do much of anything good for games or gamers.
So what price makes sense? What's commensurate with the value Torque provides? Again, I don't know the answer to this yet. It's not $150 / seat and it's not $295 / seat. Perhaps it's $1000. Perhaps it's more. I look at products like Flash ($699) or 3ds Max ($3495) / Maya ($4995) and compare them with Torque. Torque is more complex from an engineering perspective and Torque is in a smaller, more niche market. Both of these factors would argue for a higher price. What about (4)? What's affordable for the little guy? What's going to be the right price that makes it acceptable for developers who ship product to feel comfortable taking risks with a good chance of success? Hard questions to answer.

I've also noticed that Unity, which appears to be competing more with Flash than game engines, is priced many multiples higher than Torque and yet, it's attracted a license base of primarily hobbyists and amateur developers. Even though Unity now offers a lower priced "Indie" version of its tool that deprecates major features and significant license freedom, for a long time you couldn't buy Unity for less than $1000 / seat. How does that compare with Torque (a much more capable and mature engine technology that actually provides source code)?
There's another consideration that's really important to me, and that's all you reading this. Many of you have been loyal GG customers and Torque users for a long time...in some cases much longer than I've been here myself. You've become accustomed to Torque's low price. Even if it costs GG money in the short term, I don't want to see this community lose is vibrance or engagement because Torque's no longer an affordable technology to stay current with.
While I haven't figured out how it will work yet, I have decided that when Torque 3D is ready for relase, we'll offer it with an option that makes it much more affordable for TGEA owners to make the move. New licensees who don't already own TGEA at that point will pay full price, whatever that ends up being. I should also note that TGEA 1.8 will probably remain an affordable option at the low end throughout 2009, but if we can, we'll provide a better, affordable substitute with Torque 3D...perhaps with some sort of meaningful feature or license delta. This might mean that Indie vs. Commercial changes, or goes away as well.
My ideal outcome is that in mid-2009, everyone who wants to continue working with Torque in the future will be using Torque 3D and sharing resources and knowledge with the rest of the community. This product is the largest investment we've ever made in engine tech and our expectations are high, but better I think to disclose our thoughts and intentions on things like this sooner rather than later. I'm very confident that for those of you who are really engaged in making games, upgrading to Torque 3D will be an easy choice well justified by the value it adds to your talent and dedication.
More sidebars and development blogs to come. This is post #5.
Torque 3D development blogs:
- Post #1 - Kickoff
- Post #2 - Apparatus and Warrior Camp
- Post #3 - Luma's racing kit
- Post #4 - Josh Engebretson and Web Publishing
- Post #5 - Pricing and Licensing
- Post #6 - Pricing and Licensing CONTINUED
- Post #7 - Wetness & Precipitation
- Post #8 - Screeen Space Ambient Occlusion (SSAO)
- Post #9 - Matt Langley and the Torque Launcher
- Post #10 - Chris Robertson and Collada
- Post #11 - Depth of Field
- Post #12 - Advanced Lighting
- Post #13 - Soft Particles
- Post #14 - World Editor
- Post #15 - Pricing and Licensing ANNOUNCED!
- Post #16 - GDC Live Edition
- Post #17 - River & Road Editors
- Post #18 - Beta is UP!
- Post #19 - Light Rays, Undercity, Material Editor
- Post #20 - Mass Market Hardware
- Post #21 - Beta: Part Deux
- Post #22 - Marching Towards Beta 3
- Post #23 - pureLIGHT
- Post #24 - Lighting, Terrain, and Cloth
- Post #25 - Beta 3!
- Post #26 - Coming Soon!
About the author
Since 2007, I've done my best to steer Torque's development and brand toward the best opportunities in games middleware.
#163
So it is very simple: If the technology is better than indie competition (let's say Unity, C4 and similar) then GG can dictate the price until they mess with professional engines like Trinigy/Vision3d, Gamebryo and co.
But if it does not beat but only competes then it has to pick up a reasonable market price.
So only the final product will tell what happens. If you only want to change the price with pure marketing or shareholders in mind, then you will lose ground very fast.
01/10/2009 (7:13 pm)
I agree with Christian and Thomas. We don't know what we are talking about. We are discussing about a myth.So it is very simple: If the technology is better than indie competition (let's say Unity, C4 and similar) then GG can dictate the price until they mess with professional engines like Trinigy/Vision3d, Gamebryo and co.
But if it does not beat but only competes then it has to pick up a reasonable market price.
So only the final product will tell what happens. If you only want to change the price with pure marketing or shareholders in mind, then you will lose ground very fast.
#164
Anyway, if GG now feels like can compare T3D to AAA engines he has to have yet a huge list of REALLY BIG improvement yet done or that he is sure will ship with T3D...
So why is not yet possible to hear about this huge list? Are GG going to say me "we cannot yet say what T3D will feature"? Why? Because he cannot risk to promise big things that maybe will never ship in T3D?
If so and this big things are not yet sure how can compare to engines real AAA engines?
Understand me, I'm not beating GG, just I want to highlight what seems to me like a non-sense...
I repeat... If you can yet compare T3D to a AAA engines you must have yet a huge list of new features and improvements...
At least for a price around $1000 I expect tools&editors with the same quality as Unity, not less... TGEA 1.8 till now is far behind it.
So let us know what you yet know for sure will ship with T3D and we can say our thinking about the price...
As many pointed out without knowing this list is stupid to talk about the price at least in terms of "how many $", what we can only give our opinion about is:
1. The changes we think can brought to the community a price too higher for the "lower" user base of Torque
2. The opportunity to reserve an entry point license for new comers and old members that maybe will never ship a game but will continue to contribute to mantein a vibrant community with all the benefits that this has brought to Torque over the past years
3. What limitations we think we can accept to such a entry point license (if this option will be followed by GG)
Is GG yet ready to talk to us a little about T3D and his features finally not in "marketing spot" terms?
That's my point of view...
01/10/2009 (7:23 pm)
It seems to me that we are starting to laughing for a headache before it comes...Anyway, if GG now feels like can compare T3D to AAA engines he has to have yet a huge list of REALLY BIG improvement yet done or that he is sure will ship with T3D...
So why is not yet possible to hear about this huge list? Are GG going to say me "we cannot yet say what T3D will feature"? Why? Because he cannot risk to promise big things that maybe will never ship in T3D?
If so and this big things are not yet sure how can compare to engines real AAA engines?
Understand me, I'm not beating GG, just I want to highlight what seems to me like a non-sense...
I repeat... If you can yet compare T3D to a AAA engines you must have yet a huge list of new features and improvements...
At least for a price around $1000 I expect tools&editors with the same quality as Unity, not less... TGEA 1.8 till now is far behind it.
So let us know what you yet know for sure will ship with T3D and we can say our thinking about the price...
As many pointed out without knowing this list is stupid to talk about the price at least in terms of "how many $", what we can only give our opinion about is:
1. The changes we think can brought to the community a price too higher for the "lower" user base of Torque
2. The opportunity to reserve an entry point license for new comers and old members that maybe will never ship a game but will continue to contribute to mantein a vibrant community with all the benefits that this has brought to Torque over the past years
3. What limitations we think we can accept to such a entry point license (if this option will be followed by GG)
Is GG yet ready to talk to us a little about T3D and his features finally not in "marketing spot" terms?
That's my point of view...
#165
Correct me if I am wrong, but the goal of T3D is to be a fully integrated part of the IA portal. Read his last post here
Its big. Really really big. It took me a long time to wrap my head around this. For those of you posting here who purchased the TGEA. The price hike wont affect you much. Brett is offering us a cushion. Just a guess but if you want to be a part of the next generation movement you should probably buy TGEA now.
Oh and yeah people will play real games through the browser... you will probably be able to maximize the the game screen and not even know its there. Its not the fact that you are playing in a browser that is key to this whole idea. Its the fact that as a game consumer, with a distributable browser plug in, you need download only once... you can get all sorts of cool games "instantly"
What GG is offering you with T3D is a direct to consumer distribution channel for your game, the likes the world has never seen before.
If you are not interested in that... Then be honest. It means that you don't believe you have what it takes to finish your game. Sure... its tough medicine.... From the pic above

Buck up! T3D is about real indie developers who can make it happen.
01/10/2009 (7:31 pm)
No guys... that is the pitch Brett is making. Its not about the T3D as a game engine its the big picture he is selling.Quote:
We think this evolution, bridging the divide between developers and gamers, enabling greater risk taking at lower cost, is where the industry must go. The faster it gets there, the more Torque makes sense to a wider audience of game developers. As a company, we've always aimed to support platforms and technologies that make this happen faster. I put Steam, WiiWare, XBLA, PSN, id's Quakelive and InstantAction.com all on that list. In fact, without Steam, I doubt Valve could comfortably afford to take the kind or risks they do. We'd all, as gamers and game developers, be much worse off without if they hadn't bucked the system and created the most effective digital distribution platform on the planet. (Go Valve!)
Correct me if I am wrong, but the goal of T3D is to be a fully integrated part of the IA portal. Read his last post here
Quote:
With InstantAction.com proving what's possible with web gaming across all kinds of game engines, operating systems, and browsers, we thought that it was definitely time to bring this functionality to Torque.
Games being accessible from the web is exactly the kind of innovation that really empowers the little guy to reach customers directly and pick up the kind of momentum and audience that are needed to gain huge success.
Its big. Really really big. It took me a long time to wrap my head around this. For those of you posting here who purchased the TGEA. The price hike wont affect you much. Brett is offering us a cushion. Just a guess but if you want to be a part of the next generation movement you should probably buy TGEA now.
Oh and yeah people will play real games through the browser... you will probably be able to maximize the the game screen and not even know its there. Its not the fact that you are playing in a browser that is key to this whole idea. Its the fact that as a game consumer, with a distributable browser plug in, you need download only once... you can get all sorts of cool games "instantly"
What GG is offering you with T3D is a direct to consumer distribution channel for your game, the likes the world has never seen before.
If you are not interested in that... Then be honest. It means that you don't believe you have what it takes to finish your game. Sure... its tough medicine.... From the pic above

Buck up! T3D is about real indie developers who can make it happen.
Quote:...
My ideal outcome is that in mid-2009, everyone who wants to continue working with Torque in the future will be using Torque 3D and sharing resources and knowledge with the rest of the community. This product is the largest investment we've ever made in engine tech and our expectations are high, but better I think to disclose our thoughts and intentions on things like this sooner rather than later. I'm very confident that for those of you who are really engaged in making games, upgrading to Torque 3D will be an easy choice well justified by the value it adds to your talent and dedication.
#166
01/10/2009 (8:19 pm)
I'm glad you've got it all figured out. I too am anxious to hear from somebody in the know about what features and improvements they plan on bringing to the table. If it's all about IA I'll be out, but if they plan on significantly upgrading the toolset and cleaning up the code I'll be willing to pay more.
#167
Its saddening though that there is going to possibly be a price increase that will be just above where the casual/indie developer can afford, and thus eliminate them from the experience of Torque (good or bad). You basically snubbed your nose at the business model which has allowed GG to thrive, to some extent.
It seems that if we're not out to make some amazing AAA game or something with some possibly following, but instead just want to learn about game engines, then Torque will no longer be an option and people will have to go elsewhere. Its going to kill any community that is left and the results will be just those select ones who have either been helped by GG to release a product or have had the inside track on things.
I also echo along with others that hopefully with price increase comes better QA, more "transparency" (which was promised and still not delivered, even with latest TGEA), and quite possibly more developer involvement from GG (since theres very little compared to how it use to be, when GG was trying to get started and it was an important part of the business model)
01/10/2009 (8:22 pm)
Interesting read and not something that was unexpected with the involvement of IAC and the need for GG to increase revenues. Its saddening though that there is going to possibly be a price increase that will be just above where the casual/indie developer can afford, and thus eliminate them from the experience of Torque (good or bad). You basically snubbed your nose at the business model which has allowed GG to thrive, to some extent.
It seems that if we're not out to make some amazing AAA game or something with some possibly following, but instead just want to learn about game engines, then Torque will no longer be an option and people will have to go elsewhere. Its going to kill any community that is left and the results will be just those select ones who have either been helped by GG to release a product or have had the inside track on things.
I also echo along with others that hopefully with price increase comes better QA, more "transparency" (which was promised and still not delivered, even with latest TGEA), and quite possibly more developer involvement from GG (since theres very little compared to how it use to be, when GG was trying to get started and it was an important part of the business model)
#168
TGB Indie - $100
TGE Indie - $150
TGEA 1.8 Indie - $295
When a newcomer to the GG community e-mails me or asks openly "Which engine should I start with?", I almost always direct them to TGB first. If they are set on 3D development, but are completely strapped for cash, I encourage them to work with the TGEA and TGE demos for a while. If they can only afford the bare minimum, TGE is still a great, low cost engine that hobbyists and Indies can pick up and run with. Those with higher budgets and are serious about using more advanced systems are then directed to TGEA 1.8...
See where I'm going with this? I've stated before that I do not believe Indie perfectly translates to "Free" or "Cheap." Indie, to me, is short for independent. I believe this to mean a developer or team operates independent of outside funding and 3rd party management.
However, I'm not naive. Without outside funding, some developers have to go for lower cost options to develop their game. Probably most, in fact. On the flip side, you see Indie developers like Jonathan Blow create Braid with a $200K budget. Portal and Counterstrike started off as independent projects or mods, but then they were picked up and given a nice budget.
Despite what is being thrown around in the posts, this blog *IS* about Torque 3D, and not about InstantAction or IAC. We've already started two threads to begin discussion of features and new documentation.
Brett will continue his Torque 3D Development Blogs, and you will be hearing from the rest of the team as we go. We have no intention of saying: "Price goes up, see you guys at launch." This is a side bar blog, meant to keep you in the loop instead of springing information on you at the last minute.
I came from the community, and I'm damn sure going to remain an active community member. It's been four years and I've seen multiple occasions where someone said GG is abandoning Indies and hobbyists.
We're not, but we have to grow and change like any other company.
We want you, the community, to continue on the ride with us. If we didn't, we would delete the forums, remove the .plan section, jack up the prices on all of our engines, and discontinue everything else we do not wish to support.
01/10/2009 (8:39 pm)
@Everyone - Please keep in mind that no one has stated that we are killing off TGB, TGE, and TGEA 1.8.TGB Indie - $100
TGE Indie - $150
TGEA 1.8 Indie - $295
When a newcomer to the GG community e-mails me or asks openly "Which engine should I start with?", I almost always direct them to TGB first. If they are set on 3D development, but are completely strapped for cash, I encourage them to work with the TGEA and TGE demos for a while. If they can only afford the bare minimum, TGE is still a great, low cost engine that hobbyists and Indies can pick up and run with. Those with higher budgets and are serious about using more advanced systems are then directed to TGEA 1.8...
See where I'm going with this? I've stated before that I do not believe Indie perfectly translates to "Free" or "Cheap." Indie, to me, is short for independent. I believe this to mean a developer or team operates independent of outside funding and 3rd party management.
However, I'm not naive. Without outside funding, some developers have to go for lower cost options to develop their game. Probably most, in fact. On the flip side, you see Indie developers like Jonathan Blow create Braid with a $200K budget. Portal and Counterstrike started off as independent projects or mods, but then they were picked up and given a nice budget.
Despite what is being thrown around in the posts, this blog *IS* about Torque 3D, and not about InstantAction or IAC. We've already started two threads to begin discussion of features and new documentation.
Brett will continue his Torque 3D Development Blogs, and you will be hearing from the rest of the team as we go. We have no intention of saying: "Price goes up, see you guys at launch." This is a side bar blog, meant to keep you in the loop instead of springing information on you at the last minute.
I came from the community, and I'm damn sure going to remain an active community member. It's been four years and I've seen multiple occasions where someone said GG is abandoning Indies and hobbyists.
We're not, but we have to grow and change like any other company.
We want you, the community, to continue on the ride with us. If we didn't, we would delete the forums, remove the .plan section, jack up the prices on all of our engines, and discontinue everything else we do not wish to support.
#169
So I'll say this. I'd feel okay paying $1,000 for an indie license for T3D with the features that I've heard about already plus your promised work on the documentation. I'd probably even be willing to pay an additional reasonable per-title price as long as we continue to get updates to work with for the initial price, and pay the per-title price when we publish. That would probably be fair and in line with what I think the vision is here.
If you guys will be talking about something substantially more than that, then I'd definitely need to see much better tool support before it would be worth considering.
01/10/2009 (8:55 pm)
Fair enough, Michael. Obviously you have to grow, and $295 is really a retarded price for TGEA with source code, and I got it for even less than that as an EA, so I'll gladly pay more as long as it doesn't get ridiculous in the other direction. Brett's claim that you could easily charge hundreds of thousands of dollars per title for TGEA had me a little concerned that you guys let the Front Line Award go to your heads a bit ;)So I'll say this. I'd feel okay paying $1,000 for an indie license for T3D with the features that I've heard about already plus your promised work on the documentation. I'd probably even be willing to pay an additional reasonable per-title price as long as we continue to get updates to work with for the initial price, and pay the per-title price when we publish. That would probably be fair and in line with what I think the vision is here.
If you guys will be talking about something substantially more than that, then I'd definitely need to see much better tool support before it would be worth considering.
#170
I've followed every upgrade, not sure what that cost totals, from verson 1.4 up. Also
bought some packs and the TGB and upgrades when it started.
I'm a part-time hobbyist so the real 'need' to have the latest tech is not a really big deal.
Basically just fool around a bit, and when I have extra time, try to come up with something that isn't in the engine. some ease of use or tie-in editing feature.
Most of the time, the major feature enhancements are put into place by some other hobbyist before me.
I have yet to see a major (end-result seen) offering from GG, most enhancements appear to have come from a community member or group, who then went on to become an Associate.
Most of these enhancements are given back freely and in an open 'share for everyone's benefit', manner
It's true, a higher fee is likely required for continued development, but if most of that development is already coming openly from hobbyist's or those who bought in because of the reasonable (low) price, then with too much of a higher buy-in, you will lose that potential and option.
Basically, I think that if a hobbyist option with a reasonable price tag remains, so will the groups and individuals who tinker, and end up contributing a lot of the most useful fixes and enhancements.
If the hobbyist buy-in become prohibitive or 'not worth it', it seems to me that this engine may end up becoming more stagnant and the community enhancements will likely become 'closed door', thus stunting future growth and feedback input/changes.
Tough choice, tougher solution.
01/10/2009 (9:27 pm)
Hmmm....I've been a member since Sept 2002.I've followed every upgrade, not sure what that cost totals, from verson 1.4 up. Also
bought some packs and the TGB and upgrades when it started.
I'm a part-time hobbyist so the real 'need' to have the latest tech is not a really big deal.
Basically just fool around a bit, and when I have extra time, try to come up with something that isn't in the engine. some ease of use or tie-in editing feature.
Most of the time, the major feature enhancements are put into place by some other hobbyist before me.
I have yet to see a major (end-result seen) offering from GG, most enhancements appear to have come from a community member or group, who then went on to become an Associate.
Most of these enhancements are given back freely and in an open 'share for everyone's benefit', manner
It's true, a higher fee is likely required for continued development, but if most of that development is already coming openly from hobbyist's or those who bought in because of the reasonable (low) price, then with too much of a higher buy-in, you will lose that potential and option.
Basically, I think that if a hobbyist option with a reasonable price tag remains, so will the groups and individuals who tinker, and end up contributing a lot of the most useful fixes and enhancements.
If the hobbyist buy-in become prohibitive or 'not worth it', it seems to me that this engine may end up becoming more stagnant and the community enhancements will likely become 'closed door', thus stunting future growth and feedback input/changes.
Tough choice, tougher solution.
#171
I didn't know if this community still had that kind of fire, but what's clear to me is that there are a lot of people who really care about what GG does and where Torque goes. I'm going to address each and every point brought up here, but it will take me some time to digest all this feedback. From what I've read so far, it looks like the conversation has gone off into the weeks on several occasions, so apprecation to those who are trying to keep it focused and productive.
Here's what not to expect in any comments by me on this blog or as a follow up in the immediate future:
- Some kind of full feature spec for Torque 3D
Ummm...no. I'll be talking about this on our schedule as we're comfortable with it. We're still months from a release, so it would be irresponsible of me to post more detail than I currently am. If that makes price consideration difficult, that's understandable. You're perfectly welcome to take the cynic's view that this will be a bugfix pass on TGEA 1.8. It won't, but some of you won't be convinced until you've actually used a demo...again that's fine. Most of what I originally wrote about pricing and licensing of Torque would still apply.
- Some kind of final pricing
This will likely take a while to figure out. There are some good ideas here and I'm seriously considering using them. My core goal around the Torque offering and pricing scenario (after or in conjunction with those mentioned in the original post) is simplicity. TGE is not going to get updated. That codebase is out of the picture for active development.
TGEA 1.8 will share a LOT of code with Torque 3D and moving from one to the other seamlessly will be very important, so that codebase is very much alive. I don't like the idea of having updates and bugfixes that would apply to Torque 3D and not TGEA 1.8 though. This seems silly...so I want to try to match up the codebases for what everyone in this community is using. So, maybe TGEA 1.8 gets point updates from here and remains a low cost option, or maybe we just create an easily maintainable, but feature-limited version of Torque 3D to replace it.
Just ideas at this stage...but I'm looking for good solutions both inside GG and from you guys.
- Some kind of mad rant re: the projection of malevolent intentions onto GG or GG people
I realize there are people who read this post and wanted to assume the worst. I'm not going to spend a lot of effort trying to win those people over. They're finnicky and run from developer community to developer community until they find the product that makes their game for them (long search...).
I want GG to be a place for passionate game making. There's plenty of room for dreamers here, but dreamers with a chance for success. That means not expecting Matt Fairfax to write your game for you. That means being realistic about a game engine can and should do. That means looking for solutions to hard problems and sharing them with others. That's what GG was always supposed to be and that's what we're still, 8 years later, looking to foster.
Make no mistake, Harvey and Simon (now of Buccaneer fame) are definitely dreamers. They'd have to be to persevere through 2 years of game development to get where they are today. I'll work my ass off 7 days a week to make sure guys like them have a better chance at success because of Torque.
I won't break a sweat (or ask any of the crew here to) over people who beat GG up over any feature Torque might be lacking and then do nothing with the tech after feature requests have been fulfilled or improvements made. Life's too short. I'll find ways to work around those people and be as efficient as possible empowering pros, indies, and yes...dreamers with a positive attitude and a shot at success.
Like I said...more to come after I've had time to digest all this feedback. I've seen enough personal attacks in a single scan of this though. Let's cut that shit out. It's not helpful. Thank you though for the passion. It's inspiring, but let's keep it positive and civil.
01/10/2009 (9:29 pm)
This is really incredible. I posted this thing at about 6:30am on Friday morning, boarded a plane for SF to attend The Crunchies last night. This morning, I wake up after probably a few too many drinks last night and this blog has gone ballistic. 170+ posts! I didn't know if this community still had that kind of fire, but what's clear to me is that there are a lot of people who really care about what GG does and where Torque goes. I'm going to address each and every point brought up here, but it will take me some time to digest all this feedback. From what I've read so far, it looks like the conversation has gone off into the weeks on several occasions, so apprecation to those who are trying to keep it focused and productive.
Here's what not to expect in any comments by me on this blog or as a follow up in the immediate future:
- Some kind of full feature spec for Torque 3D
Ummm...no. I'll be talking about this on our schedule as we're comfortable with it. We're still months from a release, so it would be irresponsible of me to post more detail than I currently am. If that makes price consideration difficult, that's understandable. You're perfectly welcome to take the cynic's view that this will be a bugfix pass on TGEA 1.8. It won't, but some of you won't be convinced until you've actually used a demo...again that's fine. Most of what I originally wrote about pricing and licensing of Torque would still apply.
- Some kind of final pricing
This will likely take a while to figure out. There are some good ideas here and I'm seriously considering using them. My core goal around the Torque offering and pricing scenario (after or in conjunction with those mentioned in the original post) is simplicity. TGE is not going to get updated. That codebase is out of the picture for active development.
TGEA 1.8 will share a LOT of code with Torque 3D and moving from one to the other seamlessly will be very important, so that codebase is very much alive. I don't like the idea of having updates and bugfixes that would apply to Torque 3D and not TGEA 1.8 though. This seems silly...so I want to try to match up the codebases for what everyone in this community is using. So, maybe TGEA 1.8 gets point updates from here and remains a low cost option, or maybe we just create an easily maintainable, but feature-limited version of Torque 3D to replace it.
Just ideas at this stage...but I'm looking for good solutions both inside GG and from you guys.
- Some kind of mad rant re: the projection of malevolent intentions onto GG or GG people
I realize there are people who read this post and wanted to assume the worst. I'm not going to spend a lot of effort trying to win those people over. They're finnicky and run from developer community to developer community until they find the product that makes their game for them (long search...).
I want GG to be a place for passionate game making. There's plenty of room for dreamers here, but dreamers with a chance for success. That means not expecting Matt Fairfax to write your game for you. That means being realistic about a game engine can and should do. That means looking for solutions to hard problems and sharing them with others. That's what GG was always supposed to be and that's what we're still, 8 years later, looking to foster.
Make no mistake, Harvey and Simon (now of Buccaneer fame) are definitely dreamers. They'd have to be to persevere through 2 years of game development to get where they are today. I'll work my ass off 7 days a week to make sure guys like them have a better chance at success because of Torque.
I won't break a sweat (or ask any of the crew here to) over people who beat GG up over any feature Torque might be lacking and then do nothing with the tech after feature requests have been fulfilled or improvements made. Life's too short. I'll find ways to work around those people and be as efficient as possible empowering pros, indies, and yes...dreamers with a positive attitude and a shot at success.
Like I said...more to come after I've had time to digest all this feedback. I've seen enough personal attacks in a single scan of this though. Let's cut that shit out. It's not helpful. Thank you though for the passion. It's inspiring, but let's keep it positive and civil.
#172
There. I've said it.
01/10/2009 (9:33 pm)
Something stroke me while scrolling endlessly to the bottom of this page: everybody has the choice to use OR NOT to use Torque 3D. Yeah, not all the features I want are in neither of the available engines I have on my account page, yet I still use it. So my choice is to use Torque; M. Perry pointed out something so obvious everybody seems to miss: indie goes for independent. Not some Silly Joe Home Game Bakery I Stop Whenever I Feel Like. It may be indie but is still a serious business. You need to invest something of value in order to have an outcome of value: time, money, sweat, emotion, smokes, whatever. What, all of a sudden everybody wants to make the next WoW but the engine is too expensive or lacks features. Don't use it then. Or help improve it, better still. It all comes to a positive, or a negative for that matter, personal attitude. There. I've said it.
#173
Without a feature list, how are we supposed to answer your question? You are asking us to give you a price to charge without knowing what the engine is going to look like. To make a long post short...We cannot, Cannot answer your question with the information you have given us. Marketing hype is just that. Worthless words. This blog post should have waited for a while until you could tell us what features t3d would have. This blog is not appropriate at this time.
Why am I not surprised? No one should be. Outdated code is outdated code.
What I see in this post are 2 types of people.
The "elite"
and the artist/hobbiest.
The elitist pricing drops the artist/hobbiest from the price list. They cant afford the elitist pricing. Just remember, the artist/hobbiests are the core of your customers. We are the ones actually supporting GG with all the little purchases we make thru GG. If you price us out, all you will have left are the elite, and they may as well go to one of the major engines. The bottom line is, we all love torque. That's why we are here. In a year or two, tgea 1.8 will be gone as it's code will be outdated. Then what's left? Don't tell me tgea 1.8 will be kept alive. Everyone here knows that is not true. Just like tge, it will be gone.
Remember us little guys. We are your bread and butter.
01/10/2009 (10:05 pm)
Brett Seyler said:Quote:- Some kind of full feature spec for Torque 3D
Ummm...no. I'll be talking about this on our schedule as we're comfortable with it.
Without a feature list, how are we supposed to answer your question? You are asking us to give you a price to charge without knowing what the engine is going to look like. To make a long post short...We cannot, Cannot answer your question with the information you have given us. Marketing hype is just that. Worthless words. This blog post should have waited for a while until you could tell us what features t3d would have. This blog is not appropriate at this time.
Quote:TGE is not going to get updated.
Why am I not surprised? No one should be. Outdated code is outdated code.
Quote:I'll find ways to work around those people and be as efficient as possible empowering pros, indies, and yes...dreamers with a positive attitude and a shot at success.I sure hope so. (and seriously believe you are truthful here.)
Quote:Let's cut that shit out. It's not helpful.You could have said this much better. Falling into the same trap others have isn't helpful.
Quote:Thank you though for the passion. It's inspiring, but let's keep it positive and civil.Oh, you did say it better. :-)
What I see in this post are 2 types of people.
The "elite"
and the artist/hobbiest.
The elitist pricing drops the artist/hobbiest from the price list. They cant afford the elitist pricing. Just remember, the artist/hobbiests are the core of your customers. We are the ones actually supporting GG with all the little purchases we make thru GG. If you price us out, all you will have left are the elite, and they may as well go to one of the major engines. The bottom line is, we all love torque. That's why we are here. In a year or two, tgea 1.8 will be gone as it's code will be outdated. Then what's left? Don't tell me tgea 1.8 will be kept alive. Everyone here knows that is not true. Just like tge, it will be gone.
Remember us little guys. We are your bread and butter.
#174
Something else to think about. With this new IA portal technology what will the revenue sharing model be, if I want to sell exclusively through Instant Action VS sell through steam too?
GG used to offer something like indie gets 80% /GG gets 20% if you sell exclusively through the GG website and 50% / 50% if you don't want to be exclusive. Is the mix going to stay the same with IA?
Also, will we be able to place out own adds in our game? You know download images while we run our game in the IA portal? Or will this be something that has to be worked out through legal?
Also I sincerely apologize if I seemed sarcastic. I really love GG and I have not been around in a while. It was A LOT OF INFORMATION for me to digest, to even understand whats going on. I had a lot of catching up to do and part of that was figuring out what Instant Action is... who owns it and what the big picture is. I wont lie, I was a little upset at first. I am passionate about GG or I would not have stayed up all night doing research.
Its hard to see your baby grow up. So sorry if I offended anyone.
01/10/2009 (10:24 pm)
@Brett,Something else to think about. With this new IA portal technology what will the revenue sharing model be, if I want to sell exclusively through Instant Action VS sell through steam too?
GG used to offer something like indie gets 80% /GG gets 20% if you sell exclusively through the GG website and 50% / 50% if you don't want to be exclusive. Is the mix going to stay the same with IA?
Also, will we be able to place out own adds in our game? You know download images while we run our game in the IA portal? Or will this be something that has to be worked out through legal?
Also I sincerely apologize if I seemed sarcastic. I really love GG and I have not been around in a while. It was A LOT OF INFORMATION for me to digest, to even understand whats going on. I had a lot of catching up to do and part of that was figuring out what Instant Action is... who owns it and what the big picture is. I wont lie, I was a little upset at first. I am passionate about GG or I would not have stayed up all night doing research.
Its hard to see your baby grow up. So sorry if I offended anyone.
#175
AAA - 1% ???
Indie - 10% ???
Hobbyist - 89% ???
Educational - ???
Perhaps I am wrong but from following this thread, this is easy IMHO. These are my random thoughts. Obviously you would like to grow the AAA and Indie but hopefully not at the expense of the Hobbyist who has gotten Garagegames where they are today. Some of the hobbyist have become your Indie and AAA over time. So how do we grow AAA and Indie and yet not loose the hobbyists. After reading through the this thread I believe it is obvious to offer a tiered approach.
AAA - Full source code and direct access to Garagegames staff during business hours (Private forums only for AAA companies) $2995/developer or $20k per development house (site license) (all major/minor upgrades free for 2 years) can publish as many games as wanted in 2 year period.
Indie - Full source code access but no access to GarageGames staff (standard forums only) $995/developer (free feature access for 1 year) can 1 publish game (allow for upgrade to AAA if more than 1 game to publish)
Hobbyist - Limited source code access, no access to GarageGames staff (standard forums only) $495/developer with $200 upgrade for currents TGEA owners and no ability to publish game or make money from engine (no time limit but no upgrades to major version)
Educational - Limited source code access, no access to GarageGames staff (standard forums only) $195/developer or offer site license and no ability to publish game or make money from engine (time limited to 365 days)
I believe though you need to vastly improve the quality of the engine, content pipeline and scripting ability if you are looking to ask for the above prices. As someone who has worked with Valve's, Unreal's, Monolith's and Id's engines, quality must improve. With investment and new licenses, GarageGames can grow to become the company we all want to cheer for and still have a community of developers with varying backgrounds.
Major upgrades every 2 years with minor feature updates every 1 year is reasonable. Only Indie and AAA really need full source code access???
This is all debatable but just my thoughts. To me, royalties can be discussed with GarageGames if they decide to assist in publishing games and game content, which is where Valve is so ahead of everyone else now.
My $.02
01/10/2009 (10:32 pm)
You have 4 customers: (Curious to what the real numbers actually are)AAA - 1% ???
Indie - 10% ???
Hobbyist - 89% ???
Educational - ???
Perhaps I am wrong but from following this thread, this is easy IMHO. These are my random thoughts. Obviously you would like to grow the AAA and Indie but hopefully not at the expense of the Hobbyist who has gotten Garagegames where they are today. Some of the hobbyist have become your Indie and AAA over time. So how do we grow AAA and Indie and yet not loose the hobbyists. After reading through the this thread I believe it is obvious to offer a tiered approach.
AAA - Full source code and direct access to Garagegames staff during business hours (Private forums only for AAA companies) $2995/developer or $20k per development house (site license) (all major/minor upgrades free for 2 years) can publish as many games as wanted in 2 year period.
Indie - Full source code access but no access to GarageGames staff (standard forums only) $995/developer (free feature access for 1 year) can 1 publish game (allow for upgrade to AAA if more than 1 game to publish)
Hobbyist - Limited source code access, no access to GarageGames staff (standard forums only) $495/developer with $200 upgrade for currents TGEA owners and no ability to publish game or make money from engine (no time limit but no upgrades to major version)
Educational - Limited source code access, no access to GarageGames staff (standard forums only) $195/developer or offer site license and no ability to publish game or make money from engine (time limited to 365 days)
I believe though you need to vastly improve the quality of the engine, content pipeline and scripting ability if you are looking to ask for the above prices. As someone who has worked with Valve's, Unreal's, Monolith's and Id's engines, quality must improve. With investment and new licenses, GarageGames can grow to become the company we all want to cheer for and still have a community of developers with varying backgrounds.
Major upgrades every 2 years with minor feature updates every 1 year is reasonable. Only Indie and AAA really need full source code access???
This is all debatable but just my thoughts. To me, royalties can be discussed with GarageGames if they decide to assist in publishing games and game content, which is where Valve is so ahead of everyone else now.
My $.02
#176
I'm fine with tiered approaches to licensing, but really don't like the idea of limited number of games published per license, nor license expiry (with the exception of educational, which makes sense to expire once you leave education). Even if I owned a mac/iPhone, I doubt I'd consider developing for the iPhone due to this reason.
edit: Just to clarify, by expiry I'm referring to the license no longer been valid for making/publishing a game, not to the no longer getting free product updates.
I'm not sure if by publish you are referring to releasing the game via a publisher, or if you'd include self publishing too, but either way I feel hobbyists should be able to release their games. Just non-commercially (which includes no donations). If they want to accept donations or sell the game, then they get the appropriate license.
Source code access is debatable. Perhaps an even lower price point could be offered for a binary only version for hobbyists.
There's likely some potential problems with non-commercial licenses though if people try to side-step it. For example, would having advertising on the site that you distribute the "free" games be classed as profiting from the games? Or using the games for advertising purposes in other ways.
01/11/2009 (12:15 am)
Quote:Indie - Full source code access but no access to GarageGames staff (standard forums only) $995/developer (free feature access for 1 year) can 1 publish game (allow for upgrade to AAA if more than 1 game to publish)
I'm fine with tiered approaches to licensing, but really don't like the idea of limited number of games published per license, nor license expiry (with the exception of educational, which makes sense to expire once you leave education). Even if I owned a mac/iPhone, I doubt I'd consider developing for the iPhone due to this reason.
edit: Just to clarify, by expiry I'm referring to the license no longer been valid for making/publishing a game, not to the no longer getting free product updates.
Quote:Hobbyist - Limited source code access, no access to GarageGames staff (standard forums only) $495/developer with $200 upgrade for currents TGEA owners and no ability to publish game or make money from engine (no time limit but no upgrades to major version)
I'm not sure if by publish you are referring to releasing the game via a publisher, or if you'd include self publishing too, but either way I feel hobbyists should be able to release their games. Just non-commercially (which includes no donations). If they want to accept donations or sell the game, then they get the appropriate license.
Source code access is debatable. Perhaps an even lower price point could be offered for a binary only version for hobbyists.
There's likely some potential problems with non-commercial licenses though if people try to side-step it. For example, would having advertising on the site that you distribute the "free" games be classed as profiting from the games? Or using the games for advertising purposes in other ways.
#177
First and foremost, this company never set out to create a tool for hobbyists. This tool was created because the founders saw the game industry heading in the direction of the film industry where sequels and formulaic content ruled and imaginative risky ideas where few and far between. They decided to remove the barrier of high cost technology so that people could afford to take a risk and create gameplay and ideas that were unique.
Now before all you hobbysists get up in arms, I want to make it very clear that we understand that a large portion of our customers are hobbyists and people wanting to learn game making. There is nothing wrong with that, in fact I have met a lot of awesome people that fall into that category, but that's not the market that this company set out to foster. I also hope that we will be able to find a way to keep all you hobbyists around without having to sacrifice going after the Indie market.
The problem we are facing is that we have an awesome community of really unique and talented individuals that can't afford to drive the technology as fast as it needs. All the problems that people mention about our old tech are a result of GG having to make ends meet while trying to slowly expand. If the company had slowed down to truly tackle some of the major bugs and old documentation there is a good chance that we wouldn't be around today.
I have also heard several of you mention that this is a result of the cooperate funding. The only thing the cooperate funding has done is allow us to take a step back and create the type of product we always wanted to but could never afford to take a risk on. We have taken a risk with Torque 3D and put a lot of manpower behind it to create some truly awesome revolutionary tech for Indie developers. We aren't naive enough to think that we could begin talking about prices north of $500 without addressing a lot of the things that you all talk about while also adding new features and polish to make working with Torque 3D both fun and productive.
I also want to address 3rd party products as that is what I manage at the Garage. A higher price point on the engine will do nothing but help content and tool creators. Right now because of the $295 price point it doesn't give the content developer much room to price their product (anything above 1/2 of the engine price is questioned). Right now its really risky for a company to spend 6 months or longer working on a genre kit that can only be priced as high as $150. By increasing our high end price or following a model like Bryan just mentioned it gives the 3rd party guy a lot more flexibility and increases the chances that people will spend those extra couple of months tweaking their stuff for public consumption.
All in all I just wanted to say that we haven't lost our vision as a company, in fact we are in a better position than ever to deliver on that vision.
01/11/2009 (12:33 am)
As Brett said I find it amazing what kind of response this blog has gotten and what a roller coaster of emotions it has been. I've been with GG for just over two years now and wanted to address a couple of things that I have been seeing. First and foremost, this company never set out to create a tool for hobbyists. This tool was created because the founders saw the game industry heading in the direction of the film industry where sequels and formulaic content ruled and imaginative risky ideas where few and far between. They decided to remove the barrier of high cost technology so that people could afford to take a risk and create gameplay and ideas that were unique.
Now before all you hobbysists get up in arms, I want to make it very clear that we understand that a large portion of our customers are hobbyists and people wanting to learn game making. There is nothing wrong with that, in fact I have met a lot of awesome people that fall into that category, but that's not the market that this company set out to foster. I also hope that we will be able to find a way to keep all you hobbyists around without having to sacrifice going after the Indie market.
The problem we are facing is that we have an awesome community of really unique and talented individuals that can't afford to drive the technology as fast as it needs. All the problems that people mention about our old tech are a result of GG having to make ends meet while trying to slowly expand. If the company had slowed down to truly tackle some of the major bugs and old documentation there is a good chance that we wouldn't be around today.
I have also heard several of you mention that this is a result of the cooperate funding. The only thing the cooperate funding has done is allow us to take a step back and create the type of product we always wanted to but could never afford to take a risk on. We have taken a risk with Torque 3D and put a lot of manpower behind it to create some truly awesome revolutionary tech for Indie developers. We aren't naive enough to think that we could begin talking about prices north of $500 without addressing a lot of the things that you all talk about while also adding new features and polish to make working with Torque 3D both fun and productive.
I also want to address 3rd party products as that is what I manage at the Garage. A higher price point on the engine will do nothing but help content and tool creators. Right now because of the $295 price point it doesn't give the content developer much room to price their product (anything above 1/2 of the engine price is questioned). Right now its really risky for a company to spend 6 months or longer working on a genre kit that can only be priced as high as $150. By increasing our high end price or following a model like Bryan just mentioned it gives the 3rd party guy a lot more flexibility and increases the chances that people will spend those extra couple of months tweaking their stuff for public consumption.
All in all I just wanted to say that we haven't lost our vision as a company, in fact we are in a better position than ever to deliver on that vision.
#178
"
in which way is torque more capable and mature than unity?
01/11/2009 (12:42 am)
"Even though Unity now offers a lower priced "Indie" version of its tool that deprecates major features and significant license freedom, for a long time you couldn't buy Unity for less than $1000 / seat. How does that compare with Torque (a much more capable and mature engine technology that actually provides source code)?"
in which way is torque more capable and mature than unity?
#179
01/11/2009 (12:55 am)
The third party products are a good point, assuming T3D doesn't price so many people out of the game that third party products will be able to sell higher but only to a handful of people, which wouldn't really improve the bottom line.
#180
In all honesty I don't think there is any per say.. cept what will be made available in 2.5 I think. I think all of us should drop potential shots at other communities (not speaking to you Tommosaur, or anyone in particular).
01/11/2009 (12:57 am)
@ TommosaurIn all honesty I don't think there is any per say.. cept what will be made available in 2.5 I think. I think all of us should drop potential shots at other communities (not speaking to you Tommosaur, or anyone in particular).
Torque Owner Thomas Bang