Game Development Community

Torque 3D Sidebar - Pricing and Licensing

by Brett Seyler · 01/09/2009 (2:57 pm) · 370 comments

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www.ggbetas.com/brett/buffett-rounded-bordered.pngThis is probably the most candid blog post I'll write all year. It's also likely to be quite long. I'm aiming here to communicate a lot of things and I'm hoping they come out in nice fluid arc, but we'll see. It's supposed to be about GG and you, but we might take some twists and turns getting there. I should also warn anyone who's willing to read through this that there are no clear answers in this blog, just thoughts and questions.

While I'm sitting here starting to write this, I'm thinking about how much I like reading Warren Buffett's shareholder letters. I'm certainly not alone in admiring his frank, honest, pull-no-punches style. Buffett's customers are his shareholders, but I notice that very few companies write to their customers this way. What would it be like if they did?

I'm certainly not arrogant enough to draw any kind of comparison between me and the Sage of Omaha, but I really going to try to follow his example in candor and clear communication about business goals.

Most of you probably don't know that I did finance and investment work before joining GG. Though I've always been into games and technology my whole life, it's still a a very weird kind of transition to make from that button up world to the laid back, but hyper-competitve world of a startup software company. Obviously, GG is much more fun, but it's almost demanding in a lot of the same ways finance was for me. You might be surprised how much business is just business, and finding ways to succeed and get more done is universal across those kind of boundaries.

There are a bunch of subjects I'll likely wander around in this post, but the one that bears this post's title is the focus...

RUH-ROH! I can hear the alarm bells going off..."GG is raising prices! I knew it!!!!!!!!!!"

I'll just tear the Band-aid away quickly then. Torque 3D will have a higher price tag than GG'ers are used to from Torque. How much higher? I'm not sure yet to be honest...I've given it a lot of thought, but in the past few months, when I've looked to you guys for feedback, it's always been helpful and understanding, so I figured I'd push my luck and do it again =)

Here are the core principles for GG and Torque that I'm trying to stay true to in working this out:


(1) Make sure that Torque licensing is a sustainable business that allows for signicant reinvestment in the technology--enough to keep Torque at the forefront of modern game engines.


(2) Eat our own dog food. This means we use what we sell, reinforcing the need to reinvest in the technology.


(3) Leverage modern distribution options. This means web publishing, downloadable channels, and any other efforts that upset that status quo in publishing and put more money and control in the developer's hands.


(4) Remain an affordable option for the little guy.



Obviously there's a balance to be struck attempting to serve both (1) and (4). However, there may be less conflict than you'd think. For example, let me talk about (1) a little bit.

Why I'm not worried about Epic or AAA

We made a decision with Torque a long time ago not to compete head to head the top competition in the AAA space. That competitions has emerged in the past decade to be Epic's Unreal engine, first and foremost. While Torque can do a LOT of what Unreal can do, we're executing on a much different business model and strategy...part of it is idealistic, part's pragmatic.

www.ggbetas.com/brett/markrein-rounded-bordered.pngThe Unreal engine is driven by the needs of Epic's studio to deliver every year, without fail, on a game with the highest visual impact possible. They succeed, more or less, in doing this with Unreal Tournament and Gears of War. These huge budget AAA games subsidize the enormous cost of developing technology that keeps the games looking better than anything else. By extension, the Unreal engine is percieved as being the best technology at any given time. (Seem like circular logic? Keep reading.)

Sure...there are disturbances in the force. Upstarts like Crytek or Gamebryo steal the limelight now and then, but let's be realistic, Unreal dominates AAA engine licensing. When I say AAA, I mean licensing for use in big budget AAA titles. If you're building a $10-$30M game, you're looking at Unreal first. It inspires confidence in your publisher (guaranteeing more money) and it says to the media and press that "this game is going to achieve a certain visual quality bar that you expect from games made with Unreal." This last part in particular is crucial to the hype-train that gets gamers to pay $60 for a game on release day.

Sound like any other industry you can think of? Come...let's all share in the let down and pretend we didn't just get screwed.

I'd be lying if I said I didn't admire Epic's success in both engine licensing and game development. They've figured out how the game is played and beat everyone under the current ruleset. My hat's off to them. But a lot of this blockbuster-game-driven perception about engines is crap IMO. The dirty little secret in AAA games is that great art, far more than tech, creates visual quality. Even so, "UE = visual superiority => best engine" is the common thinking in the games industry and no one--NO ONE--has been able to break Epic's stranglehold on this section of the middleware market for the better part of decade.

How would you change things if it were your desire to do so?

There are two paths that I see...

You can try to beat Epic at their own game. To do this you'd need a premiere game studio with huge budgets to consistently impress on developers and the press that Unreal is no longer the best performing engine tech around. This means truly high end tech and *really* high end artists that can push the technology's boundaries.

Crytek appears to be trying to execute on this strategy, and they've had some success. id, while a major innovator in game dev technology, appears only casually interested in upsetting the state of Epic's AAA middleware domination. Gamebryo has some good tech and a good marketing / sales team, but no dedicated studio to consistently test the tech and then demonstrate where they stack up next to Unreal or other AAA competitors, so I think they're doomed to fail in AAA. Valve plays a role similar to id. They appear to only casually pursuing licensing of their Source engine.

So that's it... Crytek is the only reasonable candidate to unseat Epic as the AAA engine licensing champion. Why don't I think that will happen? In order to do it, Crytek needs to do it year after year for a sustained period of time, and that demands a lot of money. Epic's makes financially successful games that subsidize the costs of developing their tech. Crytek, to date, has not.

Even for hardcore gamers and the press, it's not just about the good looks, it's also about being on the right platforms, being able to tell a good story in-game. Developers have to find the right gameplay hooks to make a game rewarding. As visually impressive as Crysis is (far more than any UE3 game IMO), the game lacked what was needed to achieve maintream (and financial) success. Minimum hardware requirements that were totally off the charts on the game's release didn't help much either.


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Does it make sense for GarageGames to try to go to head-to-head with Epic in the same fashion? Well, maybe we'd consider it if the AAA engine licensing space were a growth market or currently underserved, but it's neither. AAA engine licensing has been a fairly stagnant market for years now and Epic'c never conceded more than about 50% of the available revenue, so I don't know about you, but doing bloody battle for a slice of a pie that isn't growing seems kind silly to me.

So, if not head-to-head with Epic, where does Torque fit? What's the angle? Well, our goal is not really to "beat" Epic, it's to change the game (in the "meta" sense of the word). We think it's dumb that games cost $60 and that the best selling games published by the biggest publishers all essentially answer to Walmart.


Games should be cheaper.

Gamers should have more variety.

Developers should feel comfortable taking more risks.



None of these are possible without upsetting the status quo. This is why we created Torque and put a $100 no royalties price tag on it in 2001. This is why we created InstantAction.com so that we could build our own audience and connect gamers to developers with no interference from publishers or retailers. Both efforts serve the same goal of making it easier (and more affordable) for developers to take risks.

Torque exists to provide developers (starting with our own game studio) with the means to take these kinds of risks, to create games that can achieve AAA-level visual quality, but with a focus on what makes games fun. We want our studio and you to innovate in ways that matter most to gamers. Portal didn't need next-gen visuals or a multi-million dollare engine to win over gamers. It could have easily been built with Torque. Just the same, Marble Blast Ultra didn't need super-high end rendering. To make the point even clearer, look at Phil Hassey's Galcon. Phil built this game in Python all by himself and it's currently one of the most played games on InstantAction.


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We think this evolution, bridging the divide between developers and gamers, enabling greater risk taking at lower cost, is where the industry must go. The faster it gets there, the more Torque makes sense to a wider audience of game developers. As a company, we've always aimed to support platforms and technologies that make this happen faster. I put Steam, WiiWare, XBLA, PSN, id's Quakelive and InstantAction.com all on that list. In fact, without Steam, I doubt Valve could comfortably afford to take the kind or risks they do. We'd all, as gamers and game developers, be much worse off without if they hadn't bucked the system and created the most effective digital distribution platform on the planet. (Go Valve!)

Let's think again about the balance between enabling the little guy, and being in a position to reinvest in Torque and sustain this effort to encourage risk taking in games. Who do we mean by the little guy? Does a hobbyist who never publishes anything serve these goals? Probably not...let's talk about that...

We're building Torque to enable a particular set of developers: those who can persevere though the challenge of game development. This means outfits like Fro Games, Stickman Studios, Sickhead Games, and Tilted Mill to cite some recent examples. In the recent Game Developer profile on TGEA for the Front Line awards, I think they hit the nail on the head.


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Are you one of these developers? A lot of you might not know yet. Some of you may not know whether you even want to push that hard or take that much time. You might be happy with game development as a curiousity and have no interest in ever publishing your work. This does not mean Torque is not for you.

Just as Photoshop, Flash, Max and Maya are built for professional use with professional licensees in mind, so is Torque. And just as plenty of amateurs and hobbyists use Adobe and Autodesk tools with no intention of making their work public, so will amateur and hobbyist Torque users. Still, often times, these tools make professionals of people who didn't know if they had what it in them, and we hope Torque does the same.

If we want Torque to effectively serve professionals and that set of developers who have the fortitude and talent to give it a real shot, we need to re-evaluate Torque's license fee. We can't do this effectively for $150 / seat, at least not with Torque 3D. Torque has thousands and thousands of licensees, but developing engine technology is very complicated and very expensive--certainly more complicated and expensive than developing games.

Attaching a $150 / seat price Torque has created a quality perception that does not do justice to Torque's capabilities. GarageGames could *easily* spin out a new business under a different banner and sell TGEA / Torque 3D right next to all the other major AAA engines for hundreds of thousands of dollars per title. Why don't we? Because it doesn't help us with (3) or (4). We'd be quickly assimilated into the tiny space left over by Epic and fighting tooth and nail with everyone else for 3-4 licensing tile deals per year. It wouldn't help us with games. It would disrupt the broken industry model. It wouldn't do much of anything good for games or gamers.

So what price makes sense? What's commensurate with the value Torque provides? Again, I don't know the answer to this yet. It's not $150 / seat and it's not $295 / seat. Perhaps it's $1000. Perhaps it's more. I look at products like Flash ($699) or 3ds Max ($3495) / Maya ($4995) and compare them with Torque. Torque is more complex from an engineering perspective and Torque is in a smaller, more niche market. Both of these factors would argue for a higher price. What about (4)? What's affordable for the little guy? What's going to be the right price that makes it acceptable for developers who ship product to feel comfortable taking risks with a good chance of success? Hard questions to answer.


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I've also noticed that Unity, which appears to be competing more with Flash than game engines, is priced many multiples higher than Torque and yet, it's attracted a license base of primarily hobbyists and amateur developers. Even though Unity now offers a lower priced "Indie" version of its tool that deprecates major features and significant license freedom, for a long time you couldn't buy Unity for less than $1000 / seat. How does that compare with Torque (a much more capable and mature engine technology that actually provides source code)?

There's another consideration that's really important to me, and that's all you reading this. Many of you have been loyal GG customers and Torque users for a long time...in some cases much longer than I've been here myself. You've become accustomed to Torque's low price. Even if it costs GG money in the short term, I don't want to see this community lose is vibrance or engagement because Torque's no longer an affordable technology to stay current with.

While I haven't figured out how it will work yet, I have decided that when Torque 3D is ready for relase, we'll offer it with an option that makes it much more affordable for TGEA owners to make the move. New licensees who don't already own TGEA at that point will pay full price, whatever that ends up being. I should also note that TGEA 1.8 will probably remain an affordable option at the low end throughout 2009, but if we can, we'll provide a better, affordable substitute with Torque 3D...perhaps with some sort of meaningful feature or license delta. This might mean that Indie vs. Commercial changes, or goes away as well.

My ideal outcome is that in mid-2009, everyone who wants to continue working with Torque in the future will be using Torque 3D and sharing resources and knowledge with the rest of the community. This product is the largest investment we've ever made in engine tech and our expectations are high, but better I think to disclose our thoughts and intentions on things like this sooner rather than later. I'm very confident that for those of you who are really engaged in making games, upgrading to Torque 3D will be an easy choice well justified by the value it adds to your talent and dedication.

More sidebars and development blogs to come. This is post #5.

Torque 3D development blogs:



About the author

Since 2007, I've done my best to steer Torque's development and brand toward the best opportunities in games middleware.

#141
01/10/2009 (10:55 am)
... Changed this after reflection

Here is what is really going on. Instant Action and GG are part of something really big. The price hike is going to be pretty high for a simple reason. Instant Action is part of the next generation entertainment industry.

READ Here about IAC
Read here to see who runs IAC
Read here about Josh's Blog

I had no idea who IAC was...

Josh Williams
Quote:
Well, we've been sitting on this news for awhile, and it's great to finally announce it! We're very excited to let everyone know that GarageGames has partnered up with InterActive Corporation, IAC, to build a brand new network of action games playable in the browser, and to fund independent games, all in accordance with our long-standing philosophy, vision, and mission at GG.

Hold on to your seats, the ride at GG is about to get bumpy! I'm actually excited to see what happens. I now know why the founders left, they cashed out and started a new thing. Its not a bad thing its just GG is now big business and the founders of GG are entrepreneurs.

Josh continues
Quote:
As some of you have read in the announcements by now though, IAC has acquired a majority of the equity at GG. However, we used a very unique structure in our deal with them. While IAC now has the majority of the future economic value of GG, we continue to run the shop right here in good old Eugene, OR.

Translation:
IAC holds 51% of GG stock. IAC owns Instant Action and Garage Games.
Thats a fact. All business decisions and direction is now controlled by IAC.

I'm not saying that this is bad in any way shape or form. Its the kind of great adventure that we will all write about in our memoirs. When the IA publishing is portal is finally ready the revenue will skyrocket like crazy. It will be enough to cause a frenzy.

IAC probably plans to sell of GG and the IA publishing portal for hundreds of millions, maybe (in their dreams billions). Who has the billions? Probably EA or Microsoft. Maybe a big retailer or publisher will buy the package I dunno someone like Vivendi.

My advice to the great GG crew, get your stock options. As many as you can. Make sure you can vest them in under 4 years. If you don't get any stock options you are missing out big time.

@Brett, have you met Buffet? He is actually part of this... 2 degrees of separation from GG through IA's contacts with Coca Cola. You should ask Josh to introduce you to Victor Kaufman. There is no Doubt in my mind that he Knows Buffet from his work with Coca Cola (when forming Tristar). Coke is part of Berkshire Hathaway (which is controlled by Buffet). Read up on what Buffet owns here. You can probably meet one of your heroes. Or maybe get a linked in to him on your linked in profile.

Quote:
Mr. Kaufman had already made a name for himself with Tri-Star, persuading Coca-Cola, Time Inc.'s Home Box Office and CBS Inc. to form the company five years ago in an innovative joint venture that came with an oversized bankroll and ready-made distribution networks. Largely because of its Kaufman-engineered financial structure, Tri-Star prospered, posting operating profits of $21 million last year on sales of $254 million.

www.ampedlabs.com/files/stuff/2degrees.seperation.jpg
Forbes Article on Victor Kaufman
Quote:From the forbes Artcile Kaufman's Total IAC Compensation is $3,263,971.00
2.5 Billion of that is Stock Awards.

The indie vision has changed. I felt it. We all did. Its not about dreamers anymore. Its about indies who can produce practical results and finish a game. Is that necessarily a bad thing? If you just want an indie license for a game engine you can find that. But remember, it was GG who came up with that concept. Those guys would not offer it if GG had not done it first. So GG and Instant Action will be the next big thing.

You have to innovate to stay ahead.
..
#142
01/10/2009 (12:17 pm)
David/Michael - No doubt that Davey is passionate as all you guys are, but good CS representative I'm afraid that's stretching it - I wouldn't put a complaint into a supermarket about their product and expect a member of staff to start shout about show me what you've done like I should be some form of master chef because I bought a tin of beans!!!

The vast majority of Torque licensees will never release any game - they are still customers though and having members of staff alienate them is not good CS on any level. What is good CS is diffusing a situation, calming people down and turning heated discussions into ones where positive discussions can be had (eg. Deborah's post!

Josh - We all spend a lot on our hobbies but also remember that the cheaper Wii without the shiny features of the Xbox was outselling the xbox by more than 2 to 1 in a report issued at the end of last year - the Wii has the all round family appeal and the right price point to pull in almost everyone which is where I can draw a parallel to Torque, the price has always been a big draw for getting people in the door and getting interested in Torque products... I really think either TGE or TGEA should be kept as an active Torque Entry level product to draw people in and get bitten by the game dev bug, simpler tools and step by step guides would be a great help.

The two major things for me that I'd pay more to see:

- Fewer bugs - we've just ported from TGE to TGEA and it's taken 2 of us just over 3 months to work through the bugs - map2dif tools, tcpobject not working, vorbis loader issues all of which are bugs in stock code, I'd pay more for the product just to have saved the hassle of working through all of these.

Whether that's a more rigorous QA process, time spent fixing bugs between beta and release, weekly patches/svn access, someone scanning the Bugs forum each day offering advice/solutions or anything else that might work you guys are best placed to answer what's the best approach that you could support.

(Side note but please please can we have a release notes with versions I have a few bugs in 1.7.1 and not sure whether they are resolved in 1.8 - if I know they are then I'll test an upgrade to 1.8 but I don't want to move if it's not going to solve some of my issues).

- Documentation - I'm a book/documentation fiend and collect/read any and all information I have several $1000's worth of books and documents on all manner of computer development related topics including all the Torque related books (except Torque for teens), Apparatus' TGEA environment guide and also the Video Tutorials posted by Deborah Marshall, things are definately on the up with this side. As I mentioned have just moved up to TGEA and need to re-write a few bits of our code on the rendering side and whereas I have opengl books I used as reference for TGE, I could do with a beginners guide to GFX/GFX2 and basic principals of how to render a few things so that's where I'd like to see the documentation effort head in the future.

Also - perhaps even a range of tutorials i.e. a tutorial "So you want to write an FPS..." walking you through step by step adding weapons, inventory, terrain options, etc... I think these would be invaluable and something certainly I'd be prepared to pay $$'s for on top of my license to get hold of them as a seperate product if it's going to save me some time and speed up my learning.

Overall I'd support what most people have said an have a tiered pricing structure of some sort, allowing hobbyists to get in the door and get a taste of the technology and develop their dream but then adding a premium for those that wish to go commercial with the charging for a finished product.
#143
01/10/2009 (1:00 pm)
I had to laugh about some pricing suggestions.

What should GG do? Very simple.

GG should write down the complete feature list of T3D (or TGEA 2.0 or... whatever). So every user can compare this list with the features from other engines like Unity or C4. Now it would be possible to get an appropriate price for the next engine version.

Nothing against Brett Seyler... but... what he is writing (also in his other blogs about T3D) is nothing more than "marketing phrases". Nobody knows concrete technical aspects of T3D.
Example: "Vastly improved art pipeline". What does it mean?

GG says always like this... "We have very cool features in our pipeline".

Matt Fairfax said in this blog: "I stand by my work and I give you my assurance that Torque 3D is going to be a product worth owning!"

These are mindless phrases.

Dont get me wrong. I dont want to be rude but this is the bitter truth.

Edit:
How can i determine the price without to know the feature list (including some further knowledge about the future of ShowToolPro) ?
#144
01/10/2009 (2:21 pm)
OT Re: Davey and CS comment

I'd intended my last comment to be a throw-away dig at his posts here, re-reading it I can see how it came across more as a broad cut. I blame 5am posting after a long day and a longer night. My apologies for casting wide aspersions on the back of a simple forum discussion.
#145
01/10/2009 (2:52 pm)
I published a retail game with Torque and am also one of it's biggest proponents.

I wouldn't be here if it had cost more than $150 in 2003.

It really is that simple. If you increase the cost too much you won't see the problem for three years, and then you'll suddenly find the bottom has dropped out of your community. And it'll be too late to fix it.

At $100-$200 you have an amazing product. At $1000 you have something eminently attackable by users and competitors.
#146
01/10/2009 (4:07 pm)
I do physics type stuff with vehicles, ballistics, orbit mechanics, that kind of thing. I have very little interest in graphics, or getting the UI objects to work, or converting 20 TGE hobbyist quality add on bits I've gotten used to working in a new engine.

Having said that, I could "afford" (get past the wife) a new engine. What I couldn't afford is bribing several artists to learn a difficult pipeline. I assume a lot of the artists here historically have played around with the engine enough to be interested in developing art for it, leading to them being familiar with the parts I wouldn't care to fight with/slog through personally. That is, Torque trained artists.

I would hope that a strong and clear art pipeline with data formats that speed integration from both industry standard and indy art tools is a high priority. (I haven't been paying attention to TGEA at all, so perhaps I have egg on my face and this is already a reality.) If someone has to use "non-Torque" artists more in future because the "talented amateur" pool drys up...
#147
01/10/2009 (4:26 pm)
Quote:
So here are my suggestions for pricing structure:

$0-$50 A "tools only" version. No source, non commercial use only.
$150-250 A "non commercial indie" license. Includes source, but doesn't allow for commercial distribution of products.
$250-$500 A "commercial indie" licence. Includes source, allows distribution of commercial products.
$1000-$1500 A "commercial" license. Source included, support included, unlimited product releases/skus.

I agree completely with Phil. This is basically what you have today, with a price increase. To me, this seems like the no-brainer model to go down.

A lot of people are on here spouting off different price structures, but they are ignoring the history. The current prices structure was not the initial structure. I seem to recall it was originally 100 and 10K. And you had to pay the 10K before you shipped.

And I have to say I completely, and utterly, disagree with the Pay now and Pay when you ship ideas. It's already hard enough for the small guys to get teams together, to get something out. If they have the added psychological barrier of paying a crap-ton when they want to ship, I think you will see even less games come out.

If you are needing to capitalize this better, I would suggest that you start adding support options. Sell support contracts that guarantee a minimum amount of priority email support, with additional charges for additional incidents. All these people who are complaining about docs and support, but seem willing to shell out 5K for a license would get what they want - hand holding - and those of us who don't need it won't have to bear the brunt. And there's nothing like recurring revenue to make the accountants happy.
For example - a priority email support contract: 2500 per year, includes 6 support incidents. Additional incidents cost $500. Any incident that requires time or programming more than 4 hours requires a new incident, unless the incident is the result of a bug.
#148
01/10/2009 (4:58 pm)
@ Jaimi
Those prices aren't going to come close I don't think for what they are wanting to do (referencing Brett's original post).. and in fact, I would wager they would actually lose money.

Not sure what you mean by the history part. If that's how it was, it was a terrible idea. Splitting up the price is a very inclusionary method because it 1) allows hobbyists to tinker with GG's best engine for cheap, but also "motivates" GG to make completing a game easier or they won't cash in on the second payment to often. The prices I listed above are more than reasonable, even for hobbyists I think, and still allows for GG to increase profits away from their current version that I doubt they always break even.

Support options.. at least most listed by people in this thread are not going to happen.. at least without raising the prices even further to cover the manpower that would need to be shifted, or hired to support it.
#149
01/10/2009 (5:31 pm)
@Andrew, that is where you are wrong...

Quote:I would wager they would actually lose money.

GG is simply targeting a new market audience with more cash. They will make more money with raised prices. Bottom line... hobbyists don't finish games. Starving artists will have to partner with someone who can afford the license.

In the end (couple of years) GG will offer something through T3D and instant action that no one else can touch. This will attract a whole set of new players.

Guys, you are just a bunch of indie dreamers. GG is not a game indie engine company anymore. GG is something bigger. You will gladly pay $3,500 (if you can) when you see what happens next.
#150
01/10/2009 (5:55 pm)
@ Britton

Actually you read me post wrong. That comment was directed at the one price suggestion.. not at GG for raising prices. Look further up and you will see my "suggestions for raising prices.
#151
01/10/2009 (6:04 pm)
Quote:GarageGames could *easily* spin out a new business under a different banner and sell TGEA / Torque 3D right next to all the other major AAA engines for hundreds of thousands of dollars per title.

I love GarageGames and all, but you're dreaming here. From a pure technology standpoint TGEA can very loosely compete with some of the AAA engines, though it's still pretty far behind in the more esoteric features, but from a tool, workflow, documentation and support standpoint it's not even in the same ballpark. You'll probably need to spend a million dollars in development costs just to get your tools up to par, and you'll have to get developers that know every nook and cranny of the engine to provide support, which means you'll probably have to rewrite the entire engine from the ground up because with the state it's in now that's a mighty tall order. With engines like Unreal you ask a question about something, and you'll get a concrete answer from the developer who wrote the code explaining what it does and how you can do what you want to do. No posting a question in a forum and waiting a week for somebody else in the community to answer the question, MAYBE.

I'd probably be comfortable with a small increase in price, but anything substantial and I would expect a much more polished product. With the price I paid for TSE as an early adopter I've been willing to fix bugs in the code myself and build my own tools because of the low price. If I'm going to pay much more then it's going to be harder to justify that.
#152
01/10/2009 (6:06 pm)
@Gerald, T3D will have something that no one else does through the IA portal. Not epic, not valve with steam, no one.

I'd pay $3,500 to 5,000 for that (If I could finish my game)
#153
01/10/2009 (6:07 pm)
Britton: will you *please* stop guessing what you think will happen with GG. This isnt the place for it. Put it in a blog if you feel that way, so I can ignore it there.

They want to make more revenue on the engine presumably to support the additional cost of further development of it. Thats fine by me.

The real issue is whether or not they continue to support newer developers and to what extent that changes the engine pricing. Frankly, I doubt they make a huge amount off the engine as-is, but I think thats currently a fair pricing for the usability the engine offers. Raising the price is fine if it comes with a rise in usability and stability. Obviously raising the price puts it out of reach of hobbyists, so the decision is to either continue to support hobbyists or not. If you do, then having a teired license is pretty much a given.

The fact is, charging a lot of money for a product means that its users will expect a greater level of support and quality development. Epic do well for licensing because they've been at it a long time and have that kind of thing worked out. Plus the added productivity that I talked about before.

If the price is too high, then you are essentially changing your target audience completely. I think personally that raising the price too far will actually alienate the smaller developer. Even productive small developers have tight budgets to work with. Beyond a certain cost, using an amalgam of open source and other middleware becomes much more attractive.

The main issue I think Thomas hit on the head. What is it we are actually TALKING about as a product? An updated TGEA? A completely refactored engine with completely new toolset?

It makes little sense until we have more of that.
#154
01/10/2009 (6:11 pm)
@Britton, consider me a skeptic on the value of IA. It's a nice toy, but that's about it.
#155
01/10/2009 (6:14 pm)
@Phil

Quote:
The main issue I think Thomas hit on the head. What is it we are actually TALKING about as a product? An updated TGEA? A completely refactored engine with completely new toolset?

We are talking about competing with flash based games, through the IA portal. A cross platform 3d game engine with shader support in your web browser. That's what we are talking about and that's why Brett posted the cost of the flash development tools.
#156
01/10/2009 (6:22 pm)
Quote:We are talking about competing with flash based games, through the IA portal. A cross platform 3d game engine with shader support in your web browser. That's what we are talking about and that's why Brett posted the cost of the flash development tools.

I hope that's not really what he's talking about. You're talking about competing against a niche that few people will pay money for. The web browser is a fine platform for casual games, mostly free ones. TGB in a web browser might be worth something though not that much. I don't think many people will want to play Fallout 3 in a web browser.
#157
01/10/2009 (6:23 pm)
But it's not competing with Flash games. I can run Flash games on a much lower computer than would run a modern game. Just because it launches from a browser doesn't mean it's suddenly going to run on every computer which runs that browser.
#158
01/10/2009 (6:32 pm)
@Jason, its not the current market, its the future market. Video game sales drive the purchase of video cards more than anything else. Anyone who wants to play call of duty, unreal 3 etc... will have the necessary hardware to play buccaneer through the web.

@Gerald, I beg to differ. Thats the whole point. You can play fallout 3 through a web browser. Take a look at what you can play at instant action now. Jeff tunnel reported over 1 million users currently playing in the IA portal.

You say no one will buy "real" games online? Take a look at valves steam sales Steam Powered over 15 million account as of February last year.
Quote: Current stats 280,548 In-Game | 1,558,106 Online

I think what Brett is saying is that GG is offering with T3D (and the IA portal) in the upcoming year or so is... a complete development kit from start to finish (on all the major platforms) and a direct to consumer sales portal to get your games sold. No one else offers that. Steam comes close, but you have to download the client. ( you have to download a browser plug in at instant action) What happens if that plugin gets shipped with the next generation of browsers like flash does today?

If you want make a web based game, Instead of buying a flash development tool you buy torque, because is a real 3d engine. With better performance. The price between the tools should be comparable.

Or you can sell your game through steam, online or retail... your choice.

How much is that worth?
...
#159
01/10/2009 (6:46 pm)
@Britton, buying games through Steam, and playing games in your web browser, are 2 entirely different things. Considering I've purchased several games from Steam it would be pretty silly for me to suggest that nobody will buy games online.

And I'm pretty sure I said "I don't think many people will want to play Fallout 3 through a web browser", not "You can't make a game like Fallout 3 in a web browser". I've been in the InstantAction beta program, so I've seen what's possible, I'm just not particularly impressed with the potential value in it.

edit: And this isn't really the place for this discussion, since I don't think that's what he's suggesting the increase in price is all about anyway, so I'll leave it at that.
#160
01/10/2009 (7:02 pm)
guys, instead of having this thread derail on a path as to what some folks think is the intention, could we please have a guy like Matt F. post the planned full whitepaper / structure somewhere, not just what we would like inside the box, but the strategy plan for tha application of which we discuss what we woulp pay / license...