Game Development Community

Torque 3D Sidebar - Pricing and Licensing

by Brett Seyler · 01/09/2009 (6:57 am) · 369 comments

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68.233.5.139/~transfer/brett/buffett-rounded-bordered.pngThis is probably the most candid blog post I'll write all year. It's also likely to be quite long. I'm aiming here to communicate a lot of things and I'm hoping they come out in nice fluid arc, but we'll see. It's supposed to be about GG and you, but we might take some twists and turns getting there. I should also warn anyone who's willing to read through this that there are no clear answers in this blog, just thoughts and questions.

While I'm sitting here starting to write this, I'm thinking about how much I like reading Warren Buffett's shareholder letters. I'm certainly not alone in admiring his frank, honest, pull-no-punches style. Buffett's customers are his shareholders, but I notice that very few companies write to their customers this way. What would it be like if they did?

I'm certainly not arrogant enough to draw any kind of comparison between me and the Sage of Omaha, but I really going to try to follow his example in candor and clear communication about business goals.

Most of you probably don't know that I did finance and investment work before joining GG. Though I've always been into games and technology my whole life, it's still a a very weird kind of transition to make from that button up world to the laid back, but hyper-competitve world of a startup software company. Obviously, GG is much more fun, but it's almost demanding in a lot of the same ways finance was for me. You might be surprised how much business is just business, and finding ways to succeed and get more done is universal across those kind of boundaries.

There are a bunch of subjects I'll likely wander around in this post, but the one that bears this post's title is the focus...

RUH-ROH! I can hear the alarm bells going off..."GG is raising prices! I knew it!!!!!!!!!!"

I'll just tear the Band-aid away quickly then. Torque 3D will have a higher price tag than GG'ers are used to from Torque. How much higher? I'm not sure yet to be honest...I've given it a lot of thought, but in the past few months, when I've looked to you guys for feedback, it's always been helpful and understanding, so I figured I'd push my luck and do it again =)

Here are the core principles for GG and Torque that I'm trying to stay true to in working this out:


(1) Make sure that Torque licensing is a sustainable business that allows for signicant reinvestment in the technology--enough to keep Torque at the forefront of modern game engines.


(2) Eat our own dog food. This means we use what we sell, reinforcing the need to reinvest in the technology.


(3) Leverage modern distribution options. This means web publishing, downloadable channels, and any other efforts that upset that status quo in publishing and put more money and control in the developer's hands.


(4) Remain an affordable option for the little guy.



Obviously there's a balance to be struck attempting to serve both (1) and (4). However, there may be less conflict than you'd think. For example, let me talk about (1) a little bit.

Why I'm not worried about Epic or AAA

We made a decision with Torque a long time ago not to compete head to head the top competition in the AAA space. That competitions has emerged in the past decade to be Epic's Unreal engine, first and foremost. While Torque can do a LOT of what Unreal can do, we're executing on a much different business model and strategy...part of it is idealistic, part's pragmatic.

68.233.5.139/~transfer/brett/markrein-rounded-bordered.pngThe Unreal engine is driven by the needs of Epic's studio to deliver every year, without fail, on a game with the highest visual impact possible. They succeed, more or less, in doing this with Unreal Tournament and Gears of War. These huge budget AAA games subsidize the enormous cost of developing technology that keeps the games looking better than anything else. By extension, the Unreal engine is percieved as being the best technology at any given time. (Seem like circular logic? Keep reading.)

Sure...there are disturbances in the force. Upstarts like Crytek or Gamebryo steal the limelight now and then, but let's be realistic, Unreal dominates AAA engine licensing. When I say AAA, I mean licensing for use in big budget AAA titles. If you're building a $10-$30M game, you're looking at Unreal first. It inspires confidence in your publisher (guaranteeing more money) and it says to the media and press that "this game is going to achieve a certain visual quality bar that you expect from games made with Unreal." This last part in particular is crucial to the hype-train that gets gamers to pay $60 for a game on release day.

Sound like any other industry you can think of? Come...let's all share in the let down and pretend we didn't just get screwed.

I'd be lying if I said I didn't admire Epic's success in both engine licensing and game development. They've figured out how the game is played and beat everyone under the current ruleset. My hat's off to them. But a lot of this blockbuster-game-driven perception about engines is crap IMO. The dirty little secret in AAA games is that great art, far more than tech, creates visual quality. Even so, "UE = visual superiority => best engine" is the common thinking in the games industry and no one--NO ONE--has been able to break Epic's stranglehold on this section of the middleware market for the better part of decade.

How would you change things if it were your desire to do so?

There are two paths that I see...

You can try to beat Epic at their own game. To do this you'd need a premiere game studio with huge budgets to consistently impress on developers and the press that Unreal is no longer the best performing engine tech around. This means truly high end tech and *really* high end artists that can push the technology's boundaries.

Crytek appears to be trying to execute on this strategy, and they've had some success. id, while a major innovator in game dev technology, appears only casually interested in upsetting the state of Epic's AAA middleware domination. Gamebryo has some good tech and a good marketing / sales team, but no dedicated studio to consistently test the tech and then demonstrate where they stack up next to Unreal or other AAA competitors, so I think they're doomed to fail in AAA. Valve plays a role similar to id. They appear to only casually pursuing licensing of their Source engine.

So that's it... Crytek is the only reasonable candidate to unseat Epic as the AAA engine licensing champion. Why don't I think that will happen? In order to do it, Crytek needs to do it year after year for a sustained period of time, and that demands a lot of money. Epic's makes financially successful games that subsidize the costs of developing their tech. Crytek, to date, has not.

Even for hardcore gamers and the press, it's not just about the good looks, it's also about being on the right platforms, being able to tell a good story in-game. Developers have to find the right gameplay hooks to make a game rewarding. As visually impressive as Crysis is (far more than any UE3 game IMO), the game lacked what was needed to achieve maintream (and financial) success. Minimum hardware requirements that were totally off the charts on the game's release didn't help much either.


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Does it make sense for GarageGames to try to go to head-to-head with Epic in the same fashion? Well, maybe we'd consider it if the AAA engine licensing space were a growth market or currently underserved, but it's neither. AAA engine licensing has been a fairly stagnant market for years now and Epic'c never conceded more than about 50% of the available revenue, so I don't know about you, but doing bloody battle for a slice of a pie that isn't growing seems kind silly to me.

So, if not head-to-head with Epic, where does Torque fit? What's the angle? Well, our goal is not really to "beat" Epic, it's to change the game (in the "meta" sense of the word). We think it's dumb that games cost $60 and that the best selling games published by the biggest publishers all essentially answer to Walmart.


Games should be cheaper.

Gamers should have more variety.

Developers should feel comfortable taking more risks.



None of these are possible without upsetting the status quo. This is why we created Torque and put a $100 no royalties price tag on it in 2001. This is why we created InstantAction.com so that we could build our own audience and connect gamers to developers with no interference from publishers or retailers. Both efforts serve the same goal of making it easier (and more affordable) for developers to take risks.

Torque exists to provide developers (starting with our own game studio) with the means to take these kinds of risks, to create games that can achieve AAA-level visual quality, but with a focus on what makes games fun. We want our studio and you to innovate in ways that matter most to gamers. Portal didn't need next-gen visuals or a multi-million dollare engine to win over gamers. It could have easily been built with Torque. Just the same, Marble Blast Ultra didn't need super-high end rendering. To make the point even clearer, look at Phil Hassey's Galcon. Phil built this game in Python all by himself and it's currently one of the most played games on InstantAction.


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We think this evolution, bridging the divide between developers and gamers, enabling greater risk taking at lower cost, is where the industry must go. The faster it gets there, the more Torque makes sense to a wider audience of game developers. As a company, we've always aimed to support platforms and technologies that make this happen faster. I put Steam, WiiWare, XBLA, PSN, id's Quakelive and InstantAction.com all on that list. In fact, without Steam, I doubt Valve could comfortably afford to take the kind or risks they do. We'd all, as gamers and game developers, be much worse off without if they hadn't bucked the system and created the most effective digital distribution platform on the planet. (Go Valve!)

Let's think again about the balance between enabling the little guy, and being in a position to reinvest in Torque and sustain this effort to encourage risk taking in games. Who do we mean by the little guy? Does a hobbyist who never publishes anything serve these goals? Probably not...let's talk about that...

We're building Torque to enable a particular set of developers: those who can persevere though the challenge of game development. This means outfits like Fro Games, Stickman Studios, Sickhead Games, and Tilted Mill to cite some recent examples. In the recent Game Developer profile on TGEA for the Front Line awards, I think they hit the nail on the head.


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Are you one of these developers? A lot of you might not know yet. Some of you may not know whether you even want to push that hard or take that much time. You might be happy with game development as a curiousity and have no interest in ever publishing your work. This does not mean Torque is not for you.

Just as Photoshop, Flash, Max and Maya are built for professional use with professional licensees in mind, so is Torque. And just as plenty of amateurs and hobbyists use Adobe and Autodesk tools with no intention of making their work public, so will amateur and hobbyist Torque users. Still, often times, these tools make professionals of people who didn't know if they had what it in them, and we hope Torque does the same.

If we want Torque to effectively serve professionals and that set of developers who have the fortitude and talent to give it a real shot, we need to re-evaluate Torque's license fee. We can't do this effectively for $150 / seat, at least not with Torque 3D. Torque has thousands and thousands of licensees, but developing engine technology is very complicated and very expensive--certainly more complicated and expensive than developing games.

Attaching a $150 / seat price Torque has created a quality perception that does not do justice to Torque's capabilities. GarageGames could *easily* spin out a new business under a different banner and sell TGEA / Torque 3D right next to all the other major AAA engines for hundreds of thousands of dollars per title. Why don't we? Because it doesn't help us with (3) or (4). We'd be quickly assimilated into the tiny space left over by Epic and fighting tooth and nail with everyone else for 3-4 licensing tile deals per year. It wouldn't help us with games. It would disrupt the broken industry model. It wouldn't do much of anything good for games or gamers.

So what price makes sense? What's commensurate with the value Torque provides? Again, I don't know the answer to this yet. It's not $150 / seat and it's not $295 / seat. Perhaps it's $1000. Perhaps it's more. I look at products like Flash ($699) or 3ds Max ($3495) / Maya ($4995) and compare them with Torque. Torque is more complex from an engineering perspective and Torque is in a smaller, more niche market. Both of these factors would argue for a higher price. What about (4)? What's affordable for the little guy? What's going to be the right price that makes it acceptable for developers who ship product to feel comfortable taking risks with a good chance of success? Hard questions to answer.


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I've also noticed that Unity, which appears to be competing more with Flash than game engines, is priced many multiples higher than Torque and yet, it's attracted a license base of primarily hobbyists and amateur developers. Even though Unity now offers a lower priced "Indie" version of its tool that deprecates major features and significant license freedom, for a long time you couldn't buy Unity for less than $1000 / seat. How does that compare with Torque (a much more capable and mature engine technology that actually provides source code)?

There's another consideration that's really important to me, and that's all you reading this. Many of you have been loyal GG customers and Torque users for a long time...in some cases much longer than I've been here myself. You've become accustomed to Torque's low price. Even if it costs GG money in the short term, I don't want to see this community lose is vibrance or engagement because Torque's no longer an affordable technology to stay current with.

While I haven't figured out how it will work yet, I have decided that when Torque 3D is ready for relase, we'll offer it with an option that makes it much more affordable for TGEA owners to make the move. New licensees who don't already own TGEA at that point will pay full price, whatever that ends up being. I should also note that TGEA 1.8 will probably remain an affordable option at the low end throughout 2009, but if we can, we'll provide a better, affordable substitute with Torque 3D...perhaps with some sort of meaningful feature or license delta. This might mean that Indie vs. Commercial changes, or goes away as well.

My ideal outcome is that in mid-2009, everyone who wants to continue working with Torque in the future will be using Torque 3D and sharing resources and knowledge with the rest of the community. This product is the largest investment we've ever made in engine tech and our expectations are high, but better I think to disclose our thoughts and intentions on things like this sooner rather than later. I'm very confident that for those of you who are really engaged in making games, upgrading to Torque 3D will be an easy choice well justified by the value it adds to your talent and dedication.

More sidebars and development blogs to come. This is post #5.

Torque 3D development blogs:



About the author

Since 2007, I've done my best to steer Torque's development and brand toward the best opportunities in games middleware.

#321
01/12/2009 (11:50 am)
#322
01/12/2009 (11:50 am)
@Gary

Not really, it's still up for sale, and all that says is: "At some point, TGE will likely either go away, or be licensed in a different way". I mean really dump it, and let everyone know. People still complain that TGE doesn't get love, either they haven't read the writing on the wall, or didn't see that particular blog.
#323
01/12/2009 (11:52 am)
You're all arguing the technology here, and I don't think that's the real issue. A good team can make a good game with a crappy engine, and a weak-sauce team won't be able to build a fun game with the best engine in the world.

It's not about technology, it's about community. That's GG's most valuable asset, not the engine.

Don't forget there's a huge community around Torque, and AFAIK, there is no such community around Unreal or those other AAA engines. Trust me, the support you get from other on the forums here is much better than what you get from the "big boys". The only difference is you can throw a hissy-fit and demand a bug fix and you're contractually obliged to get it, but it might take a week or two. With torque you might have to fix it yourself, but more than likely someone will point you in the right direction in less than an hour.

If you raise the price point to anywhere near what you're discussing, you're going to lose a big portion of the community. It sounds like that's even intentional and you're hoping that this will be the "i can has MMORPG plez?" segment, but really you're deciding to step up and compete with unreal et al. on technology. And no offense, but that's not your strong point. Community is. Raising the price going into an economic downturn seems like a recipe for disaster.

I would go the opposite direction. Try to figure out how to continue to grow the community and further leverage it. Open up the engine more, and make it cheaper. Monetize the community, not the engine. How to do that? Well, I don't know but that's the whole premise of web 2.0. It seems like the whole GGE website were tentative steps in that direction. For example, I think it's absurd that the developer forums are closed to non-owners. That's anti-community. PC gaming is moribund and profitless anyways, if I were you, I'd make PC development nearly free (like now) and community supported, and focus on license fees for console ports. It seems like you've been exploring that strategy as well, and I think it's a good idea.

As far as spending your energy catering to the mid-range developers that have the cojones to actually ship something, well that's a great idea. But without a sea of dreamers to incubate such developers, you're going to run out of them really fast. You can have both.

This is a good discussion, and kudos for floating the idea and asking for feedback instead of just flipping the switch. That's something most places wouldn't have the guts to do.

Anyways, back to reading the ogre docs...
#324
01/12/2009 (12:00 pm)
@Jaimi: Well technically the binary version is free at the moment. The binary version is the demo. The only problem with the demo is that you couldn't really make a game with it. Torque requires you to change the C++ source code to make a game, even if you aren't fixing bugs. Path finding, custom movement code, object picking, etc. That is not even including bug fixes. In my experience even the most simple game will require you to make fixes to the engine, and those fixes will be different on every version of the engine.
#325
01/12/2009 (12:32 pm)
Quote:There are a lot of people chiming in here though, that either don't want to put in the effort to make a game, or will always blame the tools for their lack of trying.

@Brett: Does that include me?
#326
01/12/2009 (12:58 pm)
Quote:There are a lot of people chiming in here though, that either don't want to put in the effort to make a game, or will always blame the tools for their lack of trying.

I imagine those people put a lot of cash in the pocket of GG.
#327
01/12/2009 (12:58 pm)
@Ray... what are these "higher end indie developers" that you're talking about making and with what engine?

You mention customers that have shipped games using Unreal and other engines. I'd be interested in learning about some "indie" developers that have a million dollars to spend on an engine.
#328
01/12/2009 (1:07 pm)
And if you were able to make a breakout game in a few hours with just a rendering engine, you should be able to fix a fullscreen bug in a few minutes with that magic ;)
#329
01/12/2009 (1:08 pm)
@Joel:

Quote:...but really you're deciding to step up and compete with unreal et al. on technology.

It's like you didn't read 95% of the OP...
#330
01/12/2009 (1:10 pm)
@Ray:

Quote:Does that include me?

I have no idea Ray. I don't know you. You tell me.
#331
01/12/2009 (1:12 pm)
@Rollerjesus:

Quote:I imagine those people put a lot of cash in the pocket of GG.

They have. No question. Was Torque and all they got worth their money? I certainly think so. I think it will be in the future as well, but they are not our core focus.
#332
01/12/2009 (1:14 pm)
@Rollerjesus: I f'ing love that name btw...ROLLERJESUS! =) Better than Raptorjesus even.
#333
01/12/2009 (1:20 pm)
@Gerald: Most of the people I know, that don't have the funding for GameBryo, Unreal, etc are using Ogre3D, OpenSceneGraph, Unity or they are coding their own rendering engines. There might be some other engines, but just of the top of my head that's what I can think of. Keep in mind I am not just including people making games, but also making simulations and serious games.

And although Ogre3D is not a game engine, if you throw in FMOD, Bullet, RakNet, SDL, etc you end up having a very powerful engine for almost nothing. Plus since you are using frameworks instead of an engine, there is nothing that will be hard coded or designed for just a single game type. For someone that is an experienced developer that can make things go WAY faster. The negative side is that you will most likely have zero tools to make your game. On the other hand a lot of people just use 3D Studio Max as their level editor, and use special nodes to represent spawn points for enemies, power-ups and the like.
#334
01/12/2009 (1:22 pm)
Quote:that either don't want to put in the effort to make a game, or will always blame the tools for their lack of trying.

Does anyone think people like this should be our core focus? They never were. Let's not body slam anyone for being honest. There are of course legitimate issues with our technology as with any other...
#335
01/12/2009 (1:33 pm)
@Ray, that's about what I figured. I've tried Unity, and while I was fairly impressed with the technology, the lack of source code availability was a deal-breaker for me. I've also gone down the Ogre3d + other frameworks route, and while it's easy to get simple things started, it starts breaking down when you start getting into the meat of your game. The lack of a commonality among the various frameworks makes it harder to develop when you have a bunch of them trying to work together.

I certainly agree with you that there are a lot of bad design concepts in Torque, ones that probably looked good 7 or 8 years ago when low-level optimizations were paramount but don't stack up to modern paradigms. There's also a number of bugs that probably shouldn't be there.

On the other hand, everything's made to work together, and the complexity doesn't balloon in the manner that it does in the framework soup environment. It's hard to get started with Torque and understand the design for sure, but once you get started the level of complexity doesn't really change.
#336
01/12/2009 (1:37 pm)
I think Ray said something interesting about an "impulse buy". I wonder how many existing license holders bought on impulse like that. The original price of TGE was low enough that it was beneath the impulse buy pain threshold for many people. Perhaps that is why comparatively few people have gone for TGEA at a higher price.

But that got me thinking about the way different people reckon the value of things like Torque, which is after all what this discussion is about. Comparisons to other products in the same market may be a good way to appeal to serious developers, because those developers may well be considering those other products and trying to decide which one will give them the features they have identified as necessary for their project, at the lowest price. In other words, the serious developers value those products based on their features, and can justify paying accordingly. Each one of those features represents time saved in getting their product to market, and time is money.

But hobbyists don't necessarily think along those lines. This may be a gross generalization, but as I see it, hobbyists just want to have fun with their hobby. To the hobbyist, an argument along the lines of "there will be more features, therefore the price should be higher", doesn't necessarily hold water. To the hobbyist, only the promise of more enjoyment will be a convincing reason to pay more. Speaking for myself, I bought TGE very early because it was the first affordable chance to play with a real game engine, which sounded like a blast. Later on, I was willing to pay a little extra for TGEA because it gave me the opportunity to play with shaders, which seemed like it would be even more fun. At no point did I ever consider other engines, comparing features and pricing. I just saw something that looked like fun, at a price I could afford without too much pain, so I bought it. At a higher price, perhaps even twice as much, I may not have purchased; I have several other hobbies competing for my dollar. If, when the features are announced, the new Torque 3D looks like it will be even more fun to work with, then I will consider paying more for it. But it will have to look really, really, orgasmically fun in order to justify a price in the thousands.

Obviously, GG needs to charge more for Torque 3D in order to pay for its development. But as I see it, it's only the average price that needs to increase. In a tiered licensing scheme, the lowest tier need not be priced any higher than what it is now, as long as there is a reason for more people to buy the higher tiers. In fact, considering the impulse buyers, it could be argued that the lowest tier should go back to $100-$150, a price point that has proven to be successful. And while GG may not be all that enthusiastic about catering to the hobbyists, I see no reason to shut them out entirely. As I said earlier, those hobbyists will continue to provide a valuable revenue stream as long as there is a price point that they can afford.
#337
01/12/2009 (1:58 pm)
I have never been a fan of crippling features in various versions. I'm not a fan of it with Unity or with 3D Game Studio. And the 3DGS groups have found some very ingenious ways of using the SDK to get around purchasing the pro license for the features that it includes. But I've just never been a fan of it. Of course, we have also found people using their licenses in ways that they shouldn't have been in the past.
#338
01/12/2009 (2:23 pm)
@Tony: It wasn't really about how much fun the engine was, or anything of that sort. It was more so about how much more I get from Torque than a free product like Ogre3D.

@Gerald: The problem with engines vs. frameworks is that engines almost every do exactly what you do. In most cases they do a lot of things that are completely against what you want to do. If you want to make a simple game like a 3D Breakout clone, a 3D puzzle game, etc, It's going to be considerably harder to make it in TGEA than lets say XNA.

Of course it depends on what you are going to make, but indie games typically have to aim at the low end. You can't compete with Metal Gear Solid 4, and if you could complete with a game like that, an Unreal license would be cheap. On the other hand you can complete with games like Bejeweled, Mutant Storm and other games that are considered casual. Those types of games, because their gameplay is dramatically different than a FPS, are WAY harder to code in Torque. XNA which is just a framework, you could get a prototype of that sort of game working in a few hours.
#339
01/12/2009 (2:42 pm)
@Ray, that's true to an extent. If you're going to aim for a simple "low end" game like a 3d breakout game, then you probably shouldn't bother with a 3D game engine. If for no other reason it's going to make your distributables much bigger than they need to be.

On the other hand, indies don't necessarily have to aim for the low end. And I think that's part of the agenda that the GG guys are trying to advance here; enabling Indies to aim higher. While an Indie isn't going to compete with Metal Gear Solid, there is a lot of territory between 3d Breakout and Metal Gear Solid. Games like Minions of Mirth, Buccaneers, Venture Africa, and such are good middle-ground Indie games built on Torque that would have been much harder to build on Ogre3d + frameworks.

I don't think the "higher end" indies that you alluded to in your original post are going to be aiming for 3d Breakout type games.
#340
01/12/2009 (4:19 pm)
@Brett .. I did read the OP.. I'm just saying that if you raise the price to $2k, you will be competing with the likes of unreal, whether you admit you are or not. By analogy, lets say I was selling a text editor for $12 as shareware, and my text editor grew to where it was almost a word processor. But I don't want to compete with Microsoft Office, so I'm not going to sell it for $600 and claim it's a office suite, I'm going to try and raise the price to $100 and to target people who need a good word processor but not a whole office suite.

You guys know more about the "serious indy" market than I do, so maybe there is a market there that I don't see. I'm still a believer, heck, I bough IAC stock when they aquired GG, so I want you guys to succeed.

What I got as the gist of your post was, "Torque is undervalued. How do we put an accurate price tag on Torque?" Of course the engine is undervalued, the original business model for GG was to sell it at less than it's worth in order to grow a community. And it worked. Anyways, I get that you're considering all this, and I just noticed your other update, I'm sure you'll come up with something that makes most of us happy. My point was that the GG community is your biggest asset, not the engine itself.