Torque 3D Sidebar - Pricing and Licensing
by Brett Seyler · 01/09/2009 (2:57 pm) · 370 comments
This is probably the most candid blog post I'll write all year. It's also likely to be quite long. I'm aiming here to communicate a lot of things and I'm hoping they come out in nice fluid arc, but we'll see. It's supposed to be about GG and you, but we might take some twists and turns getting there. I should also warn anyone who's willing to read through this that there are no clear answers in this blog, just thoughts and questions. While I'm sitting here starting to write this, I'm thinking about how much I like reading Warren Buffett's shareholder letters. I'm certainly not alone in admiring his frank, honest, pull-no-punches style. Buffett's customers are his shareholders, but I notice that very few companies write to their customers this way. What would it be like if they did?
I'm certainly not arrogant enough to draw any kind of comparison between me and the Sage of Omaha, but I really going to try to follow his example in candor and clear communication about business goals.
Most of you probably don't know that I did finance and investment work before joining GG. Though I've always been into games and technology my whole life, it's still a a very weird kind of transition to make from that button up world to the laid back, but hyper-competitve world of a startup software company. Obviously, GG is much more fun, but it's almost demanding in a lot of the same ways finance was for me. You might be surprised how much business is just business, and finding ways to succeed and get more done is universal across those kind of boundaries.
There are a bunch of subjects I'll likely wander around in this post, but the one that bears this post's title is the focus...
RUH-ROH! I can hear the alarm bells going off..."GG is raising prices! I knew it!!!!!!!!!!"
I'll just tear the Band-aid away quickly then. Torque 3D will have a higher price tag than GG'ers are used to from Torque. How much higher? I'm not sure yet to be honest...I've given it a lot of thought, but in the past few months, when I've looked to you guys for feedback, it's always been helpful and understanding, so I figured I'd push my luck and do it again =)
Here are the core principles for GG and Torque that I'm trying to stay true to in working this out:
(1) Make sure that Torque licensing is a sustainable business that allows for signicant reinvestment in the technology--enough to keep Torque at the forefront of modern game engines.
(2) Eat our own dog food. This means we use what we sell, reinforcing the need to reinvest in the technology.
(3) Leverage modern distribution options. This means web publishing, downloadable channels, and any other efforts that upset that status quo in publishing and put more money and control in the developer's hands.
(4) Remain an affordable option for the little guy.
Obviously there's a balance to be struck attempting to serve both (1) and (4). However, there may be less conflict than you'd think. For example, let me talk about (1) a little bit.
Why I'm not worried about Epic or AAA
We made a decision with Torque a long time ago not to compete head to head the top competition in the AAA space. That competitions has emerged in the past decade to be Epic's Unreal engine, first and foremost. While Torque can do a LOT of what Unreal can do, we're executing on a much different business model and strategy...part of it is idealistic, part's pragmatic.
The Unreal engine is driven by the needs of Epic's studio to deliver every year, without fail, on a game with the highest visual impact possible. They succeed, more or less, in doing this with Unreal Tournament and Gears of War. These huge budget AAA games subsidize the enormous cost of developing technology that keeps the games looking better than anything else. By extension, the Unreal engine is percieved as being the best technology at any given time. (Seem like circular logic? Keep reading.)Sure...there are disturbances in the force. Upstarts like Crytek or Gamebryo steal the limelight now and then, but let's be realistic, Unreal dominates AAA engine licensing. When I say AAA, I mean licensing for use in big budget AAA titles. If you're building a $10-$30M game, you're looking at Unreal first. It inspires confidence in your publisher (guaranteeing more money) and it says to the media and press that "this game is going to achieve a certain visual quality bar that you expect from games made with Unreal." This last part in particular is crucial to the hype-train that gets gamers to pay $60 for a game on release day.
Sound like any other industry you can think of? Come...let's all share in the let down and pretend we didn't just get screwed.
I'd be lying if I said I didn't admire Epic's success in both engine licensing and game development. They've figured out how the game is played and beat everyone under the current ruleset. My hat's off to them. But a lot of this blockbuster-game-driven perception about engines is crap IMO. The dirty little secret in AAA games is that great art, far more than tech, creates visual quality. Even so, "UE = visual superiority => best engine" is the common thinking in the games industry and no one--NO ONE--has been able to break Epic's stranglehold on this section of the middleware market for the better part of decade.
How would you change things if it were your desire to do so?
There are two paths that I see...
You can try to beat Epic at their own game. To do this you'd need a premiere game studio with huge budgets to consistently impress on developers and the press that Unreal is no longer the best performing engine tech around. This means truly high end tech and *really* high end artists that can push the technology's boundaries.
Crytek appears to be trying to execute on this strategy, and they've had some success. id, while a major innovator in game dev technology, appears only casually interested in upsetting the state of Epic's AAA middleware domination. Gamebryo has some good tech and a good marketing / sales team, but no dedicated studio to consistently test the tech and then demonstrate where they stack up next to Unreal or other AAA competitors, so I think they're doomed to fail in AAA. Valve plays a role similar to id. They appear to only casually pursuing licensing of their Source engine.
So that's it... Crytek is the only reasonable candidate to unseat Epic as the AAA engine licensing champion. Why don't I think that will happen? In order to do it, Crytek needs to do it year after year for a sustained period of time, and that demands a lot of money. Epic's makes financially successful games that subsidize the costs of developing their tech. Crytek, to date, has not.
Even for hardcore gamers and the press, it's not just about the good looks, it's also about being on the right platforms, being able to tell a good story in-game. Developers have to find the right gameplay hooks to make a game rewarding. As visually impressive as Crysis is (far more than any UE3 game IMO), the game lacked what was needed to achieve maintream (and financial) success. Minimum hardware requirements that were totally off the charts on the game's release didn't help much either.

Does it make sense for GarageGames to try to go to head-to-head with Epic in the same fashion? Well, maybe we'd consider it if the AAA engine licensing space were a growth market or currently underserved, but it's neither. AAA engine licensing has been a fairly stagnant market for years now and Epic'c never conceded more than about 50% of the available revenue, so I don't know about you, but doing bloody battle for a slice of a pie that isn't growing seems kind silly to me.
So, if not head-to-head with Epic, where does Torque fit? What's the angle? Well, our goal is not really to "beat" Epic, it's to change the game (in the "meta" sense of the word). We think it's dumb that games cost $60 and that the best selling games published by the biggest publishers all essentially answer to Walmart.
Games should be cheaper.
Gamers should have more variety.
Developers should feel comfortable taking more risks.
None of these are possible without upsetting the status quo. This is why we created Torque and put a $100 no royalties price tag on it in 2001. This is why we created InstantAction.com so that we could build our own audience and connect gamers to developers with no interference from publishers or retailers. Both efforts serve the same goal of making it easier (and more affordable) for developers to take risks.
Torque exists to provide developers (starting with our own game studio) with the means to take these kinds of risks, to create games that can achieve AAA-level visual quality, but with a focus on what makes games fun. We want our studio and you to innovate in ways that matter most to gamers. Portal didn't need next-gen visuals or a multi-million dollare engine to win over gamers. It could have easily been built with Torque. Just the same, Marble Blast Ultra didn't need super-high end rendering. To make the point even clearer, look at Phil Hassey's Galcon. Phil built this game in Python all by himself and it's currently one of the most played games on InstantAction.

We think this evolution, bridging the divide between developers and gamers, enabling greater risk taking at lower cost, is where the industry must go. The faster it gets there, the more Torque makes sense to a wider audience of game developers. As a company, we've always aimed to support platforms and technologies that make this happen faster. I put Steam, WiiWare, XBLA, PSN, id's Quakelive and InstantAction.com all on that list. In fact, without Steam, I doubt Valve could comfortably afford to take the kind or risks they do. We'd all, as gamers and game developers, be much worse off without if they hadn't bucked the system and created the most effective digital distribution platform on the planet. (Go Valve!)
Let's think again about the balance between enabling the little guy, and being in a position to reinvest in Torque and sustain this effort to encourage risk taking in games. Who do we mean by the little guy? Does a hobbyist who never publishes anything serve these goals? Probably not...let's talk about that...
We're building Torque to enable a particular set of developers: those who can persevere though the challenge of game development. This means outfits like Fro Games, Stickman Studios, Sickhead Games, and Tilted Mill to cite some recent examples. In the recent Game Developer profile on TGEA for the Front Line awards, I think they hit the nail on the head.


Are you one of these developers? A lot of you might not know yet. Some of you may not know whether you even want to push that hard or take that much time. You might be happy with game development as a curiousity and have no interest in ever publishing your work. This does not mean Torque is not for you.
Just as Photoshop, Flash, Max and Maya are built for professional use with professional licensees in mind, so is Torque. And just as plenty of amateurs and hobbyists use Adobe and Autodesk tools with no intention of making their work public, so will amateur and hobbyist Torque users. Still, often times, these tools make professionals of people who didn't know if they had what it in them, and we hope Torque does the same.
If we want Torque to effectively serve professionals and that set of developers who have the fortitude and talent to give it a real shot, we need to re-evaluate Torque's license fee. We can't do this effectively for $150 / seat, at least not with Torque 3D. Torque has thousands and thousands of licensees, but developing engine technology is very complicated and very expensive--certainly more complicated and expensive than developing games.
Attaching a $150 / seat price Torque has created a quality perception that does not do justice to Torque's capabilities. GarageGames could *easily* spin out a new business under a different banner and sell TGEA / Torque 3D right next to all the other major AAA engines for hundreds of thousands of dollars per title. Why don't we? Because it doesn't help us with (3) or (4). We'd be quickly assimilated into the tiny space left over by Epic and fighting tooth and nail with everyone else for 3-4 licensing tile deals per year. It wouldn't help us with games. It would disrupt the broken industry model. It wouldn't do much of anything good for games or gamers.
So what price makes sense? What's commensurate with the value Torque provides? Again, I don't know the answer to this yet. It's not $150 / seat and it's not $295 / seat. Perhaps it's $1000. Perhaps it's more. I look at products like Flash ($699) or 3ds Max ($3495) / Maya ($4995) and compare them with Torque. Torque is more complex from an engineering perspective and Torque is in a smaller, more niche market. Both of these factors would argue for a higher price. What about (4)? What's affordable for the little guy? What's going to be the right price that makes it acceptable for developers who ship product to feel comfortable taking risks with a good chance of success? Hard questions to answer.

I've also noticed that Unity, which appears to be competing more with Flash than game engines, is priced many multiples higher than Torque and yet, it's attracted a license base of primarily hobbyists and amateur developers. Even though Unity now offers a lower priced "Indie" version of its tool that deprecates major features and significant license freedom, for a long time you couldn't buy Unity for less than $1000 / seat. How does that compare with Torque (a much more capable and mature engine technology that actually provides source code)?
There's another consideration that's really important to me, and that's all you reading this. Many of you have been loyal GG customers and Torque users for a long time...in some cases much longer than I've been here myself. You've become accustomed to Torque's low price. Even if it costs GG money in the short term, I don't want to see this community lose is vibrance or engagement because Torque's no longer an affordable technology to stay current with.
While I haven't figured out how it will work yet, I have decided that when Torque 3D is ready for relase, we'll offer it with an option that makes it much more affordable for TGEA owners to make the move. New licensees who don't already own TGEA at that point will pay full price, whatever that ends up being. I should also note that TGEA 1.8 will probably remain an affordable option at the low end throughout 2009, but if we can, we'll provide a better, affordable substitute with Torque 3D...perhaps with some sort of meaningful feature or license delta. This might mean that Indie vs. Commercial changes, or goes away as well.
My ideal outcome is that in mid-2009, everyone who wants to continue working with Torque in the future will be using Torque 3D and sharing resources and knowledge with the rest of the community. This product is the largest investment we've ever made in engine tech and our expectations are high, but better I think to disclose our thoughts and intentions on things like this sooner rather than later. I'm very confident that for those of you who are really engaged in making games, upgrading to Torque 3D will be an easy choice well justified by the value it adds to your talent and dedication.
More sidebars and development blogs to come. This is post #5.
Torque 3D development blogs:
- Post #1 - Kickoff
- Post #2 - Apparatus and Warrior Camp
- Post #3 - Luma's racing kit
- Post #4 - Josh Engebretson and Web Publishing
- Post #5 - Pricing and Licensing
- Post #6 - Pricing and Licensing CONTINUED
- Post #7 - Wetness & Precipitation
- Post #8 - Screeen Space Ambient Occlusion (SSAO)
- Post #9 - Matt Langley and the Torque Launcher
- Post #10 - Chris Robertson and Collada
- Post #11 - Depth of Field
- Post #12 - Advanced Lighting
- Post #13 - Soft Particles
- Post #14 - World Editor
- Post #15 - Pricing and Licensing ANNOUNCED!
- Post #16 - GDC Live Edition
- Post #17 - River & Road Editors
- Post #18 - Beta is UP!
- Post #19 - Light Rays, Undercity, Material Editor
- Post #20 - Mass Market Hardware
- Post #21 - Beta: Part Deux
- Post #22 - Marching Towards Beta 3
- Post #23 - pureLIGHT
- Post #24 - Lighting, Terrain, and Cloth
- Post #25 - Beta 3!
- Post #26 - Coming Soon!
About the author
Since 2007, I've done my best to steer Torque's development and brand toward the best opportunities in games middleware.
#302
Not to say you're not raising valid points but you take a *free* upgrade to the engine that adds completely new platform support for the Mac, find a feature that has not yet been implemented on that platform (which has been documented in the release notes), classify it as a bug and delete the installation?
//Edit
And BTW, you're suggesting that GG *lowers* the price for Torque 3D? TGEA is $295 indie and $1495 commercial whereas you suggest $100 indie and $1000 commercial for Torque 3D. More features for less money? Doesn't look like a sustainable approach to developing engine tech to me.
01/12/2009 (2:17 pm)
@RayNot to say you're not raising valid points but you take a *free* upgrade to the engine that adds completely new platform support for the Mac, find a feature that has not yet been implemented on that platform (which has been documented in the release notes), classify it as a bug and delete the installation?
//Edit
And BTW, you're suggesting that GG *lowers* the price for Torque 3D? TGEA is $295 indie and $1495 commercial whereas you suggest $100 indie and $1000 commercial for Torque 3D. More features for less money? Doesn't look like a sustainable approach to developing engine tech to me.
#303
01/12/2009 (2:28 pm)
@Ray: 75 USD / year for indies? Very good idea!!!! Perfect.
#304
They could always charge more for the commercial license, but $100 is pretty much like a magic price point for hobbyists / low end developers. If something is $100 and they just got paid, it's highly possible they would buy it, rather than a video game or other product. Even $150 dollars is getting to the point most people would be thinking twice about buying the product. $100 is a price that kids in high school could even con their parents into paying.
The whole $250,000 turnover for commercial licenses is the perfect way to separate established companies from hobbyists / low end developers. Maybe lowering the $250,000 number would make more people fall into the commercial license. Once someone is successful, GarageGames gets more money.
01/12/2009 (3:07 pm)
@Rene: When I bought TSE it said that Mac OS / OpenGL support was part of what I was buying. I know they changed their minds later, but Mac OS support was not a free upgrade. It was base functionality the engine was supposed to come with.They could always charge more for the commercial license, but $100 is pretty much like a magic price point for hobbyists / low end developers. If something is $100 and they just got paid, it's highly possible they would buy it, rather than a video game or other product. Even $150 dollars is getting to the point most people would be thinking twice about buying the product. $100 is a price that kids in high school could even con their parents into paying.
The whole $250,000 turnover for commercial licenses is the perfect way to separate established companies from hobbyists / low end developers. Maybe lowering the $250,000 number would make more people fall into the commercial license. Once someone is successful, GarageGames gets more money.
#305
Oh it does?
So if I bought TGEA 1.8 I should have a license to the latest TGE as well?
I only have a license to TGE 1.4.2 that I purchased myself back before TGEA was even a product.
01/12/2009 (3:25 pm)
Quote:
This is a fair point, though TGEA 1.8 includes license to TGE and if you own TGE, you only pay the price delta to upgrade to TGEA. This means the combined cost of owning TGEA / TGE is only $295.
Oh it does?
So if I bought TGEA 1.8 I should have a license to the latest TGE as well?
I only have a license to TGE 1.4.2 that I purchased myself back before TGEA was even a product.
#306
Typically the bugs I have run into in TGE, TGEA and TGB are as critical as the save button not working (well actually the save button doesn't work in Constructor right now on Mac OS X / Leopard). Just a few examples from the past are:
* Dedicated server didn't work in TGE 1.4
* Video initialization not following Microsoft standards so Intel video cards don't work in TGEA (not sure the exact version number)
* Serious collision problems in various versions of TGB
* Various physics integration issues in various versions of TGB
If I run into a bug in a new release, without trying to find a bug in less than 5 minutes, I know if I dig deeper there will be more bugs. If you are a hobbyist it can be fun hunting around fixing bugs sometimes. But if you just want to make a game, its extremely counter productive.
If the engine is only $100 it's not a big deal. If I spent $1000 I would be pretty mad and would demand my money back.
01/12/2009 (3:33 pm)
@Rene: I do that once every few months. Download TGEA or TGB, try to prototype something in it really quick, and then run into issues. I don't have time to fix bugs, so I just delete the directory and download the engine again in a month or so. I know it sounds a bit unforgiving but that's how it is. Lets say you bought 3D Studio Max and the save button didn't work. You contacted support and they told you it was a known issue that would be fixed in the next release. You just spent a considerable amount of money on something that does not work out of the box. Maybe you could figure out some kind of hack in the thousands of files in the 3D Studio Max installation to make the save button work, but should you have to do that?Typically the bugs I have run into in TGE, TGEA and TGB are as critical as the save button not working (well actually the save button doesn't work in Constructor right now on Mac OS X / Leopard). Just a few examples from the past are:
* Dedicated server didn't work in TGE 1.4
* Video initialization not following Microsoft standards so Intel video cards don't work in TGEA (not sure the exact version number)
* Serious collision problems in various versions of TGB
* Various physics integration issues in various versions of TGB
If I run into a bug in a new release, without trying to find a bug in less than 5 minutes, I know if I dig deeper there will be more bugs. If you are a hobbyist it can be fun hunting around fixing bugs sometimes. But if you just want to make a game, its extremely counter productive.
If the engine is only $100 it's not a big deal. If I spent $1000 I would be pretty mad and would demand my money back.
#307
the full screen thing is not limited to OSX in 1.8 there are issues with full screen in windows as well.
01/12/2009 (3:49 pm)
I'm gonna have to agree with Ray on this one.the full screen thing is not limited to OSX in 1.8 there are issues with full screen in windows as well.
#308
01/12/2009 (4:05 pm)
Ontop of that, when you switch between the TGEA window and other windows, the mouse is easily stuck and you have to hide/show it again or you can't move your character/click on your GUI depending on which was on when you moved the mouse. Terrible.
#309
The discussed pricing program aims to get the well formed, dedicated indie developers more features but how many of the current TGEA users fit this description? I have no idea, but looking at the activity within this community, it seems that the folks at GG would be shooting themselves in the foot by alienating such a large sector of their market (Hobbyist who won't pay $1000 for the engine) and focusing on the much smaller sector of successful indie developers. (Who will now expect more from the engine since it costs 3 times as much - read:Support - $$$)
For instance, I focus on TGB development but have picked up both TGE and TGEA (and some content packs) because of the low price tag. There are a lot of these incidental purchases that affect the GG bottom line as well as a lot of people who buy the engine thinking it's a "click here to make a game" piece of software. In fact, I am closer to one of these types of users than I am one of the professional developers who are successfully delivering games and I'd hate to see someone in my position alienated from the community because of the barriers to entry.
I'm also not completely comfortable with all the comparisons to Adobe and Autodesk. That's not the image/ideal/level of service/etc that I want associated with my indie game engine. Those prices are just a ridiculous markup in the first place. Brett, how much does and IAC employee pay for the products you mentioned? I know when I purchase software for employees at my day job, they are significantly lower than retail. Is that the route you want to take your indie game engine?
As Dorothy said best... "Well I'm not a witch (indie engine) at all."
Of this entire thread, this surprised me the most:
Do you think that your bottom line will be positively affected when the cost of entry to use AFX is about $1,075 instead of $370? I think the world of your products but I would never have had the chance to use them if this was the case. I think the new pricing structure will have the same effect on all the content providers.
I hope that the new pricing doesn't kill the spark that I, and I think most aspiring game dev's, get when they discover GG, I know if the new plan were in place when I joined up a little over a year ago, I would have gone elsewhere.
I'm just glad GG hired Melv and I can't wait to see what comes next for TGB, I wish GG the best of luck with whatever they choose with it's 3d route.
01/12/2009 (5:19 pm)
I think a $1000 price tag will have significant negative effects for the GG community.The discussed pricing program aims to get the well formed, dedicated indie developers more features but how many of the current TGEA users fit this description? I have no idea, but looking at the activity within this community, it seems that the folks at GG would be shooting themselves in the foot by alienating such a large sector of their market (Hobbyist who won't pay $1000 for the engine) and focusing on the much smaller sector of successful indie developers. (Who will now expect more from the engine since it costs 3 times as much - read:Support - $$$)
For instance, I focus on TGB development but have picked up both TGE and TGEA (and some content packs) because of the low price tag. There are a lot of these incidental purchases that affect the GG bottom line as well as a lot of people who buy the engine thinking it's a "click here to make a game" piece of software. In fact, I am closer to one of these types of users than I am one of the professional developers who are successfully delivering games and I'd hate to see someone in my position alienated from the community because of the barriers to entry.
I'm also not completely comfortable with all the comparisons to Adobe and Autodesk. That's not the image/ideal/level of service/etc that I want associated with my indie game engine. Those prices are just a ridiculous markup in the first place. Brett, how much does and IAC employee pay for the products you mentioned? I know when I purchase software for employees at my day job, they are significantly lower than retail. Is that the route you want to take your indie game engine?
As Dorothy said best... "Well I'm not a witch (indie engine) at all."
Of this entire thread, this surprised me the most:
Quote:Tim, how many people that have bought your flagship product have delivered a game? While it may not be a direct correlation, it's loosely related at worst. You have a very appealing, very accessible product and, from what I see in the community, you get a lot of sales from people who want your effects quickly, easily and inexpensively. You might as well triple your prices too, I think you're going to need to when the average wannabe game developer can no longer afford to use your product because of GG's new pricing structure.
I think this is a smart move for GG, and maybe long overdue. It's a very tough nut to crack, I'm not jealous. I think Brett put it well all the factors that come into play. I really don't have a good opinion on this, as I have no idea the best way to handle such a needed move without causing a ruckus, but there are a lot of smart guys at GG, and their commitment to the customers is unfathomable.
Do you think that your bottom line will be positively affected when the cost of entry to use AFX is about $1,075 instead of $370? I think the world of your products but I would never have had the chance to use them if this was the case. I think the new pricing structure will have the same effect on all the content providers.
I hope that the new pricing doesn't kill the spark that I, and I think most aspiring game dev's, get when they discover GG, I know if the new plan were in place when I joined up a little over a year ago, I would have gone elsewhere.
I'm just glad GG hired Melv and I can't wait to see what comes next for TGB, I wish GG the best of luck with whatever they choose with it's 3d route.
#310
Yes. I believe you should be able to just download 1.5.2 from your My Account page if you own TGEA, though I don't know why you'd want to use it at this point.
01/12/2009 (6:43 pm)
@Jeremy:Quote:So if I bought TGEA 1.8 I should have a license to the latest TGE as well?
Yes. I believe you should be able to just download 1.5.2 from your My Account page if you own TGEA, though I don't know why you'd want to use it at this point.
#312
does the same hold true for AFX Tge if you have AFX for TGEA?
thanks.
01/12/2009 (6:54 pm)
@David Montgomery-Blakedoes the same hold true for AFX Tge if you have AFX for TGEA?
thanks.
#313
Re: Unity Indie is Mac only
That's part of the story...the other part is that you have a nice Unity watermark on your game in the browser.
Re: Render to texture and shaders
True...my bad on this. Render to texture is a subset of pixel shader tech...so with Unity Indie, you can use some, but not all pixel shader techniques.
Re: No video in Unity Indie
Seems pretty rough to me...
Re: No access to the rendering API
You might be right, an API is usually a very poor substitute for the actual code. That said, if I were using Unity, I would be holding out some hope that I could do non-standard rendering, or optimized rendering, with access to more than the classes Unity exposes to script. This is pretty much a deal breaker if you want to achieve various unique-looking styles and effects in your game.
01/12/2009 (6:55 pm)
@Aras:Re: Unity Indie is Mac only
Quote:Partly correct. Right now, publish to web (either platform) or standalone Mac.
That's part of the story...the other part is that you have a nice Unity watermark on your game in the browser.
Re: Render to texture and shaders
Quote:Shaders != Render to texture. No offfence, but ask someone who knows about graphics.
True...my bad on this. Render to texture is a subset of pixel shader tech...so with Unity Indie, you can use some, but not all pixel shader techniques.
Re: No video in Unity Indie
Quote:Correct. No video streaming or decoding.
Seems pretty rough to me...
Re: No access to the rendering API
Quote:Yes. And that is used very, _very_ rarely. I mean, it's an API to emulate OpenGL's immediate mode. How often would you use that?
You might be right, an API is usually a very poor substitute for the actual code. That said, if I were using Unity, I would be holding out some hope that I could do non-standard rendering, or optimized rendering, with access to more than the classes Unity exposes to script. This is pretty much a deal breaker if you want to achieve various unique-looking styles and effects in your game.
#314
That I'm not sure since it is a third-party product. We implemented it for TGEA because it is messy to do a refund/repurchase TGE+TGEA Upgrade.
01/12/2009 (7:06 pm)
@NeilThat I'm not sure since it is a third-party product. We implemented it for TGEA because it is messy to do a refund/repurchase TGE+TGEA Upgrade.
#315
You tread a dangerous ground, here: Many people in this thread [including me] believe that your customer base is made up one way. You appear to believe it's made up a different way, and are targetting Torque that way. Which is fine, but it's a dangerous thing to do without a little evidence to back that up. My belief of how your customer base is made up is from counting people on the forums/blogs, and counting commercial game releases: one is in the tens of thousands, the other is in the tens. Where do you get your estimates from?
If you do do such a survey, consider the numbers in more depth than the last poll blog implied. For example, "Not Important" was highlighted as what most people responded to "Ability to create mac games", but the actual numbers said that 3/4 of the respondents wanted mac support on at lest some level. It's not hard to imagine a similar spread for commercial developers of Torque. [and please at least give Linux a nod this time, if you do a poll]
I saw one comment from a GG employee that not many people upgraded from TGE to TGEA in the grand scheme of things. This is a big hint that 150 dollars is more than a lot of your customers are willing to pay.
I feel that the idea near the top of this thread, that 100 dollars should get source access without the right to publish anything at all, is a good idea. Then you can charge 2000 for an upgrade to an indie distribution license. The only things to be careful of are that you pledge not to change either the price or, more importantly, the license between when someone springs for development to begin and when they have a fully developed game. Apple garnered nothing but ire when they pull this particular stunt with the iPhone.
Gary (-;
01/12/2009 (7:15 pm)
I've seen a few comments that you didn't want hobbiests when you set out, you wanted to move the industry forward. That's fine and good, but this is what you've *got*. This is why I suggested doing a poll to find out exactly what your customer base is. If it turns out that 95% of your customers are commercial developers willing to accept a 300% price increase, then it makes great commercial sense to do it.You tread a dangerous ground, here: Many people in this thread [including me] believe that your customer base is made up one way. You appear to believe it's made up a different way, and are targetting Torque that way. Which is fine, but it's a dangerous thing to do without a little evidence to back that up. My belief of how your customer base is made up is from counting people on the forums/blogs, and counting commercial game releases: one is in the tens of thousands, the other is in the tens. Where do you get your estimates from?
If you do do such a survey, consider the numbers in more depth than the last poll blog implied. For example, "Not Important" was highlighted as what most people responded to "Ability to create mac games", but the actual numbers said that 3/4 of the respondents wanted mac support on at lest some level. It's not hard to imagine a similar spread for commercial developers of Torque. [and please at least give Linux a nod this time, if you do a poll]
I saw one comment from a GG employee that not many people upgraded from TGE to TGEA in the grand scheme of things. This is a big hint that 150 dollars is more than a lot of your customers are willing to pay.
I feel that the idea near the top of this thread, that 100 dollars should get source access without the right to publish anything at all, is a good idea. Then you can charge 2000 for an upgrade to an indie distribution license. The only things to be careful of are that you pledge not to change either the price or, more importantly, the license between when someone springs for development to begin and when they have a fully developed game. Apple garnered nothing but ire when they pull this particular stunt with the iPhone.
Gary (-;
#316
Ok, I've had some sleep, and gave it some thought. What this looks like to me, getting rid of all the marketing speak and dancing around, boils down to this:
GG wants to be able to provide a better product. To do so, they are going to need to charge more money.
If I am wrong, please correct me. However, I wish that had been said first before all the "We're going to target indies who have a chance to succeed" stuff came up (which, to be honest, sounds both condescending and elitist).
With that said, count me in.
Perhaps, in addition to a modest price increase, to generate revenue you could charge a per-month fee for point releases, access to the bug database, etc.
01/12/2009 (7:21 pm)
@AllOk, I've had some sleep, and gave it some thought. What this looks like to me, getting rid of all the marketing speak and dancing around, boils down to this:
GG wants to be able to provide a better product. To do so, they are going to need to charge more money.
If I am wrong, please correct me. However, I wish that had been said first before all the "We're going to target indies who have a chance to succeed" stuff came up (which, to be honest, sounds both condescending and elitist).
With that said, count me in.
Perhaps, in addition to a modest price increase, to generate revenue you could charge a per-month fee for point releases, access to the bug database, etc.
#317
Gary (-;
01/12/2009 (7:26 pm)
@Jaimi: Yes, that's exactly the precis. Nine-tenths of this discussion revolves around usage of the word "more". The other tenth revolves around the usage of the word "better".Gary (-;
#318
Perhaps it's time to stop selling TGE, and officially announce the discontinuation of support. Introduce your new "binary only" Torque3D in it's place, at the same price. It becomes the "Indie" version for startups. Everyone else needs the "Pro" (with source) or the Commercial.
01/12/2009 (7:37 pm)
Another thought:Perhaps it's time to stop selling TGE, and officially announce the discontinuation of support. Introduce your new "binary only" Torque3D in it's place, at the same price. It becomes the "Indie" version for startups. Everyone else needs the "Pro" (with source) or the Commercial.
#319
They already did
FWIW I would have no interest in a binary-only version of stuff. You can already get that, plus dead tree documentation, for sub-forty dollars. The interesting parts to me are how internal stuff works.
Possibly more importantly, you're blocked from being able to fix bugs or add features - for all the complaints about them, GG's resources section probably wouldn't exist at all if the only people who could submit code to it were people who have a vested interest in keeping their source private. [No offense intended to all of the excellent contributions from commercial developers, but y'all get the idea]
Gary (-;
01/12/2009 (7:43 pm)
Perhaps it's time to stop selling TGE, and officially announce the discontinuation of support.They already did
FWIW I would have no interest in a binary-only version of stuff. You can already get that, plus dead tree documentation, for sub-forty dollars. The interesting parts to me are how internal stuff works.
Possibly more importantly, you're blocked from being able to fix bugs or add features - for all the complaints about them, GG's resources section probably wouldn't exist at all if the only people who could submit code to it were people who have a vested interest in keeping their source private. [No offense intended to all of the excellent contributions from commercial developers, but y'all get the idea]
Gary (-;
#320
Getting you the right tools is on us, and we're 100% committed to that. There are a lot of people chiming in here though, that either don't want to put in the effort to make a game, or will always blame the tools for their lack of trying. I want to help the people that can be helped and hopefully inspire those who are currently on the fence about taking game development seriously enough to persevere. It's not an easy hobby or career, but it's definitely rewarding.
01/12/2009 (7:50 pm)
@Jaimi: Good to see you back =) I certainly didn't mean for any of this to sound condescending to anyone. Just the opposite actually, I think this is the most talented group of game developers anywhere, and the large majority of you are capable breaking through with sufficient dedication and the right tools. Getting you the right tools is on us, and we're 100% committed to that. There are a lot of people chiming in here though, that either don't want to put in the effort to make a game, or will always blame the tools for their lack of trying. I want to help the people that can be helped and hopefully inspire those who are currently on the fence about taking game development seriously enough to persevere. It's not an easy hobby or career, but it's definitely rewarding.
Associate Ray Noolness Gebhardt