Torque 3D Sidebar - Pricing and Licensing
by Brett Seyler · 01/09/2009 (6:57 am) · 369 comments

This is probably the most candid blog post I'll write all year. It's also likely to be quite long. I'm aiming here to communicate a lot of things and I'm hoping they come out in nice fluid arc, but we'll see. It's supposed to be about GG and you, but we might take some twists and turns getting there. I should also warn anyone who's willing to read through this that there are no clear answers in this blog, just thoughts and questions. While I'm sitting here starting to write this, I'm thinking about how much I like reading Warren Buffett's shareholder letters. I'm certainly not alone in admiring his frank, honest, pull-no-punches style. Buffett's customers are his shareholders, but I notice that very few companies write to their customers this way. What would it be like if they did?
I'm certainly not arrogant enough to draw any kind of comparison between me and the Sage of Omaha, but I really going to try to follow his example in candor and clear communication about business goals.
Most of you probably don't know that I did finance and investment work before joining GG. Though I've always been into games and technology my whole life, it's still a a very weird kind of transition to make from that button up world to the laid back, but hyper-competitve world of a startup software company. Obviously, GG is much more fun, but it's almost demanding in a lot of the same ways finance was for me. You might be surprised how much business is just business, and finding ways to succeed and get more done is universal across those kind of boundaries.
There are a bunch of subjects I'll likely wander around in this post, but the one that bears this post's title is the focus...
RUH-ROH! I can hear the alarm bells going off..."GG is raising prices! I knew it!!!!!!!!!!"
I'll just tear the Band-aid away quickly then. Torque 3D will have a higher price tag than GG'ers are used to from Torque. How much higher? I'm not sure yet to be honest...I've given it a lot of thought, but in the past few months, when I've looked to you guys for feedback, it's always been helpful and understanding, so I figured I'd push my luck and do it again =)
Here are the core principles for GG and Torque that I'm trying to stay true to in working this out:
(1) Make sure that Torque licensing is a sustainable business that allows for signicant reinvestment in the technology--enough to keep Torque at the forefront of modern game engines.
(2) Eat our own dog food. This means we use what we sell, reinforcing the need to reinvest in the technology.
(3) Leverage modern distribution options. This means web publishing, downloadable channels, and any other efforts that upset that status quo in publishing and put more money and control in the developer's hands.
(4) Remain an affordable option for the little guy.
Obviously there's a balance to be struck attempting to serve both (1) and (4). However, there may be less conflict than you'd think. For example, let me talk about (1) a little bit.
Why I'm not worried about Epic or AAA
We made a decision with Torque a long time ago not to compete head to head the top competition in the AAA space. That competitions has emerged in the past decade to be Epic's Unreal engine, first and foremost. While Torque can do a LOT of what Unreal can do, we're executing on a much different business model and strategy...part of it is idealistic, part's pragmatic.
The Unreal engine is driven by the needs of Epic's studio to deliver every year, without fail, on a game with the highest visual impact possible. They succeed, more or less, in doing this with Unreal Tournament and Gears of War. These huge budget AAA games subsidize the enormous cost of developing technology that keeps the games looking better than anything else. By extension, the Unreal engine is percieved as being the best technology at any given time. (Seem like circular logic? Keep reading.)Sure...there are disturbances in the force. Upstarts like Crytek or Gamebryo steal the limelight now and then, but let's be realistic, Unreal dominates AAA engine licensing. When I say AAA, I mean licensing for use in big budget AAA titles. If you're building a $10-$30M game, you're looking at Unreal first. It inspires confidence in your publisher (guaranteeing more money) and it says to the media and press that "this game is going to achieve a certain visual quality bar that you expect from games made with Unreal." This last part in particular is crucial to the hype-train that gets gamers to pay $60 for a game on release day.
Sound like any other industry you can think of? Come...let's all share in the let down and pretend we didn't just get screwed.
I'd be lying if I said I didn't admire Epic's success in both engine licensing and game development. They've figured out how the game is played and beat everyone under the current ruleset. My hat's off to them. But a lot of this blockbuster-game-driven perception about engines is crap IMO. The dirty little secret in AAA games is that great art, far more than tech, creates visual quality. Even so, "UE = visual superiority => best engine" is the common thinking in the games industry and no one--NO ONE--has been able to break Epic's stranglehold on this section of the middleware market for the better part of decade.
How would you change things if it were your desire to do so?
There are two paths that I see...
You can try to beat Epic at their own game. To do this you'd need a premiere game studio with huge budgets to consistently impress on developers and the press that Unreal is no longer the best performing engine tech around. This means truly high end tech and *really* high end artists that can push the technology's boundaries.
Crytek appears to be trying to execute on this strategy, and they've had some success. id, while a major innovator in game dev technology, appears only casually interested in upsetting the state of Epic's AAA middleware domination. Gamebryo has some good tech and a good marketing / sales team, but no dedicated studio to consistently test the tech and then demonstrate where they stack up next to Unreal or other AAA competitors, so I think they're doomed to fail in AAA. Valve plays a role similar to id. They appear to only casually pursuing licensing of their Source engine.
So that's it... Crytek is the only reasonable candidate to unseat Epic as the AAA engine licensing champion. Why don't I think that will happen? In order to do it, Crytek needs to do it year after year for a sustained period of time, and that demands a lot of money. Epic's makes financially successful games that subsidize the costs of developing their tech. Crytek, to date, has not.
Even for hardcore gamers and the press, it's not just about the good looks, it's also about being on the right platforms, being able to tell a good story in-game. Developers have to find the right gameplay hooks to make a game rewarding. As visually impressive as Crysis is (far more than any UE3 game IMO), the game lacked what was needed to achieve maintream (and financial) success. Minimum hardware requirements that were totally off the charts on the game's release didn't help much either.

Does it make sense for GarageGames to try to go to head-to-head with Epic in the same fashion? Well, maybe we'd consider it if the AAA engine licensing space were a growth market or currently underserved, but it's neither. AAA engine licensing has been a fairly stagnant market for years now and Epic'c never conceded more than about 50% of the available revenue, so I don't know about you, but doing bloody battle for a slice of a pie that isn't growing seems kind silly to me.
So, if not head-to-head with Epic, where does Torque fit? What's the angle? Well, our goal is not really to "beat" Epic, it's to change the game (in the "meta" sense of the word). We think it's dumb that games cost $60 and that the best selling games published by the biggest publishers all essentially answer to Walmart.
Games should be cheaper.
Gamers should have more variety.
Developers should feel comfortable taking more risks.
None of these are possible without upsetting the status quo. This is why we created Torque and put a $100 no royalties price tag on it in 2001. This is why we created InstantAction.com so that we could build our own audience and connect gamers to developers with no interference from publishers or retailers. Both efforts serve the same goal of making it easier (and more affordable) for developers to take risks.
Torque exists to provide developers (starting with our own game studio) with the means to take these kinds of risks, to create games that can achieve AAA-level visual quality, but with a focus on what makes games fun. We want our studio and you to innovate in ways that matter most to gamers. Portal didn't need next-gen visuals or a multi-million dollare engine to win over gamers. It could have easily been built with Torque. Just the same, Marble Blast Ultra didn't need super-high end rendering. To make the point even clearer, look at Phil Hassey's Galcon. Phil built this game in Python all by himself and it's currently one of the most played games on InstantAction.

We think this evolution, bridging the divide between developers and gamers, enabling greater risk taking at lower cost, is where the industry must go. The faster it gets there, the more Torque makes sense to a wider audience of game developers. As a company, we've always aimed to support platforms and technologies that make this happen faster. I put Steam, WiiWare, XBLA, PSN, id's Quakelive and InstantAction.com all on that list. In fact, without Steam, I doubt Valve could comfortably afford to take the kind or risks they do. We'd all, as gamers and game developers, be much worse off without if they hadn't bucked the system and created the most effective digital distribution platform on the planet. (Go Valve!)
Let's think again about the balance between enabling the little guy, and being in a position to reinvest in Torque and sustain this effort to encourage risk taking in games. Who do we mean by the little guy? Does a hobbyist who never publishes anything serve these goals? Probably not...let's talk about that...
We're building Torque to enable a particular set of developers: those who can persevere though the challenge of game development. This means outfits like Fro Games, Stickman Studios, Sickhead Games, and Tilted Mill to cite some recent examples. In the recent Game Developer profile on TGEA for the Front Line awards, I think they hit the nail on the head.


Are you one of these developers? A lot of you might not know yet. Some of you may not know whether you even want to push that hard or take that much time. You might be happy with game development as a curiousity and have no interest in ever publishing your work. This does not mean Torque is not for you.
Just as Photoshop, Flash, Max and Maya are built for professional use with professional licensees in mind, so is Torque. And just as plenty of amateurs and hobbyists use Adobe and Autodesk tools with no intention of making their work public, so will amateur and hobbyist Torque users. Still, often times, these tools make professionals of people who didn't know if they had what it in them, and we hope Torque does the same.
If we want Torque to effectively serve professionals and that set of developers who have the fortitude and talent to give it a real shot, we need to re-evaluate Torque's license fee. We can't do this effectively for $150 / seat, at least not with Torque 3D. Torque has thousands and thousands of licensees, but developing engine technology is very complicated and very expensive--certainly more complicated and expensive than developing games.
Attaching a $150 / seat price Torque has created a quality perception that does not do justice to Torque's capabilities. GarageGames could *easily* spin out a new business under a different banner and sell TGEA / Torque 3D right next to all the other major AAA engines for hundreds of thousands of dollars per title. Why don't we? Because it doesn't help us with (3) or (4). We'd be quickly assimilated into the tiny space left over by Epic and fighting tooth and nail with everyone else for 3-4 licensing tile deals per year. It wouldn't help us with games. It would disrupt the broken industry model. It wouldn't do much of anything good for games or gamers.
So what price makes sense? What's commensurate with the value Torque provides? Again, I don't know the answer to this yet. It's not $150 / seat and it's not $295 / seat. Perhaps it's $1000. Perhaps it's more. I look at products like Flash ($699) or 3ds Max ($3495) / Maya ($4995) and compare them with Torque. Torque is more complex from an engineering perspective and Torque is in a smaller, more niche market. Both of these factors would argue for a higher price. What about (4)? What's affordable for the little guy? What's going to be the right price that makes it acceptable for developers who ship product to feel comfortable taking risks with a good chance of success? Hard questions to answer.

I've also noticed that Unity, which appears to be competing more with Flash than game engines, is priced many multiples higher than Torque and yet, it's attracted a license base of primarily hobbyists and amateur developers. Even though Unity now offers a lower priced "Indie" version of its tool that deprecates major features and significant license freedom, for a long time you couldn't buy Unity for less than $1000 / seat. How does that compare with Torque (a much more capable and mature engine technology that actually provides source code)?
There's another consideration that's really important to me, and that's all you reading this. Many of you have been loyal GG customers and Torque users for a long time...in some cases much longer than I've been here myself. You've become accustomed to Torque's low price. Even if it costs GG money in the short term, I don't want to see this community lose is vibrance or engagement because Torque's no longer an affordable technology to stay current with.
While I haven't figured out how it will work yet, I have decided that when Torque 3D is ready for relase, we'll offer it with an option that makes it much more affordable for TGEA owners to make the move. New licensees who don't already own TGEA at that point will pay full price, whatever that ends up being. I should also note that TGEA 1.8 will probably remain an affordable option at the low end throughout 2009, but if we can, we'll provide a better, affordable substitute with Torque 3D...perhaps with some sort of meaningful feature or license delta. This might mean that Indie vs. Commercial changes, or goes away as well.
My ideal outcome is that in mid-2009, everyone who wants to continue working with Torque in the future will be using Torque 3D and sharing resources and knowledge with the rest of the community. This product is the largest investment we've ever made in engine tech and our expectations are high, but better I think to disclose our thoughts and intentions on things like this sooner rather than later. I'm very confident that for those of you who are really engaged in making games, upgrading to Torque 3D will be an easy choice well justified by the value it adds to your talent and dedication.
More sidebars and development blogs to come. This is post #5.
Torque 3D development blogs:
- Post #1 - Kickoff
- Post #2 - Apparatus and Warrior Camp
- Post #3 - Luma's racing kit
- Post #4 - Josh Engebretson and Web Publishing
- Post #5 - Pricing and Licensing
- Post #6 - Pricing and Licensing CONTINUED
- Post #7 - Wetness & Precipitation
- Post #8 - Screeen Space Ambient Occlusion (SSAO)
- Post #9 - Matt Langley and the Torque Launcher
- Post #10 - Chris Robertson and Collada
- Post #11 - Depth of Field
- Post #12 - Advanced Lighting
- Post #13 - Soft Particles
- Post #14 - World Editor
- Post #15 - Pricing and Licensing ANNOUNCED!
- Post #16 - GDC Live Edition
- Post #17 - River & Road Editors
- Post #18 - Beta is UP!
- Post #19 - Light Rays, Undercity, Material Editor
- Post #20 - Mass Market Hardware
- Post #21 - Beta: Part Deux
- Post #22 - Marching Towards Beta 3
- Post #23 - pureLIGHT
- Post #24 - Lighting, Terrain, and Cloth
- Post #25 - Beta 3!
- Post #26 - Coming Soon!
About the author
Since 2007, I've done my best to steer Torque's development and brand toward the best opportunities in games middleware.
#222
@Andrew: Appreciate you acknowledging the effort. I do feel like GG is a special place where I can do something like this and not have to worry about pissing off my boss (JoshW) :) The only point I'd clarify is that "GG can not financially continue to give their products away at such low prices and continue to function as a company." GG is not in dire straights or anything, but Torque's low price does put a speed limit on what kind of resources we can allocate to the tech. IAC's investment from 2007 has let us extend a line of credit and worry less and less about short term sales and take a longer term approach to improving Torque. This has been great...the tricky part comes when we want to build a sustainable (as in run-rate breakeven) product line. Torque 3D is a pretty lean and efficient team, but it's predecessor is also priced in the range of a toy rather than a pro-level technology.
@Joe: Internal studios not using interiors any longer. I hear you on the indie thing too. Indies need tools way more than pros in my experience. it's not just our internal guys who prefer a skeleton version of the engine with command line tools...this is the way lots of studios work. Indies need a bit more help, and that's why it's not just a flip of the switch kind of thing to say "we could go AAA with TGEA if we wanted." There are pretty major tradeoffs.
@Gerald:
Brilliant! I think you'll be really happy with what we're planning to change. In fact...I'd like to see I can loop you in to early testing maybe. Would you be interested in that?
01/11/2009 (1:20 am)
@Jeremy: Again...good thoughts and comments...appreciate you taking the time.@Andrew: Appreciate you acknowledging the effort. I do feel like GG is a special place where I can do something like this and not have to worry about pissing off my boss (JoshW) :) The only point I'd clarify is that "GG can not financially continue to give their products away at such low prices and continue to function as a company." GG is not in dire straights or anything, but Torque's low price does put a speed limit on what kind of resources we can allocate to the tech. IAC's investment from 2007 has let us extend a line of credit and worry less and less about short term sales and take a longer term approach to improving Torque. This has been great...the tricky part comes when we want to build a sustainable (as in run-rate breakeven) product line. Torque 3D is a pretty lean and efficient team, but it's predecessor is also priced in the range of a toy rather than a pro-level technology.
@Joe: Internal studios not using interiors any longer. I hear you on the indie thing too. Indies need tools way more than pros in my experience. it's not just our internal guys who prefer a skeleton version of the engine with command line tools...this is the way lots of studios work. Indies need a bit more help, and that's why it's not just a flip of the switch kind of thing to say "we could go AAA with TGEA if we wanted." There are pretty major tradeoffs.
@Gerald:
Quote:True, but that's also still $1500+ more than other comparable Indie engines, so if they're planning on charging that much they'll have to demonstrate that it's worth $1500 more than the other Indie engines.I'm not really worried about this at all. Right now, I'm not seeing a lot of good alternatives at $500, or even $1000+. If they're out there, they're not on my radar and they certainly should be.
Quote: ...I'm not necessarily talking about a clone of UnrealEd, but some tools to streamline the process of moving content from apps like Max and Maya into Torque would be just as good or better (in my opinion). As far as I know all we have now is DTS exporters. DTS is nice for what it is, but it's limited as far as being able to build levels with it, and the file format seems pretty funky to try and write our own tools to work with it anyway. And the material options are limited as far as what we can move out of the art tools into the game.
Some things like being able to work with T3D materials in the art tools without having to map materials to texture names. Maybe create some material plugins that extend the Direct3D shaders in Max, or even just fix the name of the shader constants in the engine to match what are used by tools like Max and FXComposer, to make it a smoother transition would help. There are lots of little things that can be done to make working with Torque more productive.
I've created some tools like this myself, and maybe I'll polish them up and make them available to others down the road too, but those are the kinds of things that would help set Torque ahead of the other Indie engines for workflow and make it worth paying more for. If they already existed, that would be many more hours I could be spending on my gameplay features instead of making tools to keep the artists working :p
Brilliant! I think you'll be really happy with what we're planning to change. In fact...I'd like to see I can loop you in to early testing maybe. Would you be interested in that?
#223
01/11/2009 (1:24 am)
@Jaimi: Despondent? Please, don't be. We'll make this work. I appreciate you taking the time to weigh in and of course, that you care so much. So don't drop out. Maybe relax a bit. Do some game dev. Dream up some new ideas. GG isn't going anywhere, so when you're ready, we'll have a bunch of new stuff for you :)
#224
Yep...had lunch with Barry Diller last week and he said I had to raise prices /totallyludicrousfantasy
First, GG thrived despite charging peanuts for Torque. There were certainly benefits to being "the $150 dollar engine" but few were economic. I'm not snubbing my nose at the business model either...it was innovative and risky, but an incredibly prescient play by Jeff Tunnell and crew. It's not 2001 anymore though, and what users expect of Torque is not what they were satisfied with in 2001, or even in 2005. Really, the way to look at this is, GG's gamble on a sustainable indie license base did pay off, but that it will in the future is questionable.
No, I'm not shutting the door on sub-AAA games and game developers...I'm trying to empower that space. That's the space we want to make games in too! Torque as a "learning device" is something altogether different. It's certainly not our top priority to teach people about game engines, but if you want to learn, won't TGE and TGEA as cheaply (or perhaps freely) available source options be sufficient? Expecting to have cheap source access to the latest / greatest tech for learning about game engines seems like expecting too much.
What kind of transparency are you looking for? An annual roadmap? CVS / SVN access? I feel like we've been pretty forthcoming with info about what we want to do and when we want to do it in the past year +. I don't know how much more we could do without getting roadmap / spec quotes as "promises" thrown back in our faces on release day. That's not fun. We want this to be fun. The current M.O. feels just about right to me, but if there's more we can do without it turning into a negative for us, I'm happy to do it.
01/11/2009 (1:42 am)
@Jeremiah Fulbright:Quote:Interesting read and not something that was unexpected with the involvement of IAC and the need for GG to increase revenues.
Yep...had lunch with Barry Diller last week and he said I had to raise prices /totallyludicrousfantasy
Quote:Its saddening though that there is going to possibly be a price increase that will be just above where the casual/indie developer can afford, and thus eliminate them from the experience of Torque (good or bad). You basically snubbed your nose at the business model which has allowed GG to thrive, to some extent.
First, GG thrived despite charging peanuts for Torque. There were certainly benefits to being "the $150 dollar engine" but few were economic. I'm not snubbing my nose at the business model either...it was innovative and risky, but an incredibly prescient play by Jeff Tunnell and crew. It's not 2001 anymore though, and what users expect of Torque is not what they were satisfied with in 2001, or even in 2005. Really, the way to look at this is, GG's gamble on a sustainable indie license base did pay off, but that it will in the future is questionable.
Quote:It seems that if we're not out to make some amazing AAA game or something with some possibly following, but instead just want to learn about game engines, then Torque will no longer be an option and people will have to go elsewhere. Its going to kill any community that is left and the results will be just those select ones who have either been helped by GG to release a product or have had the inside track on things.
No, I'm not shutting the door on sub-AAA games and game developers...I'm trying to empower that space. That's the space we want to make games in too! Torque as a "learning device" is something altogether different. It's certainly not our top priority to teach people about game engines, but if you want to learn, won't TGE and TGEA as cheaply (or perhaps freely) available source options be sufficient? Expecting to have cheap source access to the latest / greatest tech for learning about game engines seems like expecting too much.
Quote:I also echo along with others that hopefully with price increase comes better QA, more "transparency" (which was promised and still not delivered, even with latest TGEA), and quite possibly more developer involvement from GG (since theres very little compared to how it use to be, when GG was trying to get started and it was an important part of the business model)
What kind of transparency are you looking for? An annual roadmap? CVS / SVN access? I feel like we've been pretty forthcoming with info about what we want to do and when we want to do it in the past year +. I don't know how much more we could do without getting roadmap / spec quotes as "promises" thrown back in our faces on release day. That's not fun. We want this to be fun. The current M.O. feels just about right to me, but if there's more we can do without it turning into a negative for us, I'm happy to do it.
#225
01/11/2009 (1:43 am)
Judging by your comment to Gerald, it sounds like some improvements are being made to workflow. I wouldn't mind "early testing" as well. ;)
#226
C4 is $350, and is fairly comparable to TGEA from what I can tell, though I haven't dug into it all that much so I don't know what it's limitations are. I don't plan on moving away from GG unless something really drastic happens, which I doubt.
Sounds good, and yes definitely sign me up for early testing.
01/11/2009 (1:44 am)
Quote:I'm not really worried about this at all. Right now, I'm not seeing a lot of good alternatives at $500, or even $1000+. If they're out there, they're not on my radar and they certainly should be.
C4 is $350, and is fairly comparable to TGEA from what I can tell, though I haven't dug into it all that much so I don't know what it's limitations are. I don't plan on moving away from GG unless something really drastic happens, which I doubt.
Quote:Brilliant! I think you'll be really happy with what we're planning to change. In fact...I'd like to see I can loop you in to early testing maybe. Would you be interested in that?
Sounds good, and yes definitely sign me up for early testing.
#227
It was also a pain because new features/bug fixes were merged almost daily and keeping up with HEAD was not fun (if you were one of those who tried to keep up with the latest and greatest). When they stopped doing that and just started having releases a couple times per year or whatever, it was a lot less hectic. New versions were also more stable.
You caught my attention when you hinted at improvements in workflow, though. As one who has a full-time day job, plus overtime, plus travel (gotta love IT consulting), workflow is a major factor. I need to accomplish something, or it's hard to stick with the project at all. In the end, the price probably doesn't matter that much to me as long as I can accomplish something. I've been throwing money at GG for years, and I probably won't stop anytime soon. ;)
01/11/2009 (1:53 am)
Quote:Back in the day, there was CVS/SVN access. ;)
What kind of transparency are you looking for? An annual roadmap? CVS / SVN access?
It was also a pain because new features/bug fixes were merged almost daily and keeping up with HEAD was not fun (if you were one of those who tried to keep up with the latest and greatest). When they stopped doing that and just started having releases a couple times per year or whatever, it was a lot less hectic. New versions were also more stable.
You caught my attention when you hinted at improvements in workflow, though. As one who has a full-time day job, plus overtime, plus travel (gotta love IT consulting), workflow is a major factor. I need to accomplish something, or it's hard to stick with the project at all. In the end, the price probably doesn't matter that much to me as long as I can accomplish something. I've been throwing money at GG for years, and I probably won't stop anytime soon. ;)
#228
But in my case (I bought Lightwave, ZBrush, Modo) I would rather see an open workflow, Collada, FBX, an internal material editor. The world is a bit bigger than Max and Maya only. The uv-tools in Modo are better, the sculpting and 3d-painting in Modo is a great addition to create details and normal maps and ZBrush is also a great addition. The animation in Lightwave is good.
So there is no need for small studios to buy Autodesk tools only to work with T3D. This would be the wrong direction to move.
But if the art-flow will rely on Autodesk then I see no problem to raise the price of T3D significantly. It would be no good idea to support warez users. So a high price will sort them out.
But if you want to support smaller studios and single developers then a support of open formats is more important.
01/11/2009 (1:57 am)
The discussion startet interesting but turned to be a bit strange. Many of you complain about a price raise. Even 500 $ looks too much for them but then they write that they work with Max AND Maya. Hey, if you can afford 10 thousand $ for Max AND Maya then even 3000 $ for T3D would be peanuts.But in my case (I bought Lightwave, ZBrush, Modo) I would rather see an open workflow, Collada, FBX, an internal material editor. The world is a bit bigger than Max and Maya only. The uv-tools in Modo are better, the sculpting and 3d-painting in Modo is a great addition to create details and normal maps and ZBrush is also a great addition. The animation in Lightwave is good.
So there is no need for small studios to buy Autodesk tools only to work with T3D. This would be the wrong direction to move.
But if the art-flow will rely on Autodesk then I see no problem to raise the price of T3D significantly. It would be no good idea to support warez users. So a high price will sort them out.
But if you want to support smaller studios and single developers then a support of open formats is more important.
#229
I haven't been up until past 4am reading a GG thread in a long time. Thanks for keeping it interesting and (mostly) civil all... goodnight!
01/11/2009 (2:20 am)
@Frank: Torque 3D loads ColladaI haven't been up until past 4am reading a GG thread in a long time. Thanks for keeping it interesting and (mostly) civil all... goodnight!
#230
Now, to be honest, you guys must be developing T3D due to some strategy, how else can it be a solid build. Now I do understand the hesitation to display any actual, "hey guys this is our plan", as you folks might be quoted on a thought feature. But what about having faith in the 'Pro Indie guys' your aiming at in this as well? To be honest, trying to make me evaluate me a car I'm not allowed to start, a house I'm not allowed to enter, or a wife I'm not allowed to 'uhm, date'-is sure to result in the kind of emotional and less factual thread as this one have evolved into. Where discussion is more about GG attitude, philosophy, and customer created theories, than of what a 'engine pack' should cost.
Now lets, stop for a short sec. A tool is merely an automated process of something thats to be done countless times, if a tool is made its not to accomodate someones wish, but to accomodate speeded up -and failproof (tested) implementation of functionality. The huge engines, have implemented these to ensure speeded up workflow, and bulletproof behaviour. Saying that production people want less of these is saying that structure is floating, so I really disagree on that one Brett...
It's clear that you think theres 3 types of customers;
hobbyists -
indies -
pro indies -
Now hobbyists and indies arent usally thinking of Unreal of CryEngine, or 3Dmax and CS4 for that sake, but Milkshape, Ogre, C4 and the like.
Pro Indies, and to some extent some special Indies might work with some of the tools you mentioned previously, but please lets stop comparing nonsense with the top AAA engines. We cant even buy those if the cash is present, as they have a certain reputation regards to what studios work (might fail) with their engine, to uphold (yes, I have been into serious negotiations with some of these) -we (your customer base) are the low end market, so on what do "we" win...
Innovation, and a supporting toolset (Engine/Editor/Documentation)
That would give the customers a solid pack, and the company a solid customer mass...
01/11/2009 (2:24 am)
Selling a product and its spinoff packs is not a matter of setting a price and standing in the shop, but what people will pay for it, just look at current house prices ;)Now, to be honest, you guys must be developing T3D due to some strategy, how else can it be a solid build. Now I do understand the hesitation to display any actual, "hey guys this is our plan", as you folks might be quoted on a thought feature. But what about having faith in the 'Pro Indie guys' your aiming at in this as well? To be honest, trying to make me evaluate me a car I'm not allowed to start, a house I'm not allowed to enter, or a wife I'm not allowed to 'uhm, date'-is sure to result in the kind of emotional and less factual thread as this one have evolved into. Where discussion is more about GG attitude, philosophy, and customer created theories, than of what a 'engine pack' should cost.
Now lets, stop for a short sec. A tool is merely an automated process of something thats to be done countless times, if a tool is made its not to accomodate someones wish, but to accomodate speeded up -and failproof (tested) implementation of functionality. The huge engines, have implemented these to ensure speeded up workflow, and bulletproof behaviour. Saying that production people want less of these is saying that structure is floating, so I really disagree on that one Brett...
It's clear that you think theres 3 types of customers;
hobbyists -
indies -
pro indies -
Now hobbyists and indies arent usally thinking of Unreal of CryEngine, or 3Dmax and CS4 for that sake, but Milkshape, Ogre, C4 and the like.
Pro Indies, and to some extent some special Indies might work with some of the tools you mentioned previously, but please lets stop comparing nonsense with the top AAA engines. We cant even buy those if the cash is present, as they have a certain reputation regards to what studios work (might fail) with their engine, to uphold (yes, I have been into serious negotiations with some of these) -we (your customer base) are the low end market, so on what do "we" win...
Innovation, and a supporting toolset (Engine/Editor/Documentation)
That would give the customers a solid pack, and the company a solid customer mass...
#231
01/11/2009 (2:37 am)
Some random thoughts on C4, since I own both engines. As a renderering engine, C4 is pretty good. The lighting and shadows are very well done, and parallax mapping is good and fast. They just released a terrain engine for it recently, and a shader editor which are both pretty cool. C4 isn't as complete as Torque though. It doesn't do a lot of the things that Torque does. At least with the current incarnation of TGEA though, C4's demonstration application and rendering engine are in my opinion better all around than Torque's, at least 1.8's. So the question is, if the price gets boosted to $1500 or so, will the lighting and shadows be able to stack up with C4s? And will the extra $1150 (or less, the price isn't set yet) be worth the other features of the engine. Regardless though, C4 is a legitimate competitor.
#232
In-game material editors aren't a great idea, IMO, at least as the only option. It's better to be able to tweak the materials in the modeling tool, so you can tweak the material AND the model in consistent lighting instead of having to go back and forth and maybe end up with something that only looks good against a certain backdrop.
01/11/2009 (2:37 am)
@Frank, I wasn't suggesting that they only target Max and Maya, but those are what I use so those are what I mentioned. Obviously if they're serious about supporting indies they'll want to target the lower cost options as well. For me Max and Maya are an already decided expense since I do a lot of contract work building extensions for them, which helps finance my gamedev endeavors. And they're the tools that most artists are familiar with. But yeah, they'll probably want to support lower cost tools like Lightwave and XSI as well.In-game material editors aren't a great idea, IMO, at least as the only option. It's better to be able to tweak the materials in the modeling tool, so you can tweak the material AND the model in consistent lighting instead of having to go back and forth and maybe end up with something that only looks good against a certain backdrop.
#233
Phil, I agree with you that there's a serious distinction to be made. There many more modeling and Flash development seats to be licensed each year than there are engine middleware seats. Typically, markets that are a smaller, more specialized niche are more expensive as a result. That's the comparison I'm drawing.
Certainly, comparing Torque to C4, Unity, and ?Lawgiver (I've never heard of this) probably makes sense too. Notice that I did draw a comparison with Unity noting that it appeared they were headed in a different direction, more toward casual games than rich, immersive 3d games. I didn't mention C4 because I don't know much about it other than people say it's cleanly coded. They list it on their website as "professional grade" and a "next-generation game engine...for professionals." I presume this mean that they were focused on, well...professionals, but I only hear about C4 from Indies, so I'm not sure what to make of it. Very cool that they include the source at $350though.
Right...I presume people license TGEA for the toolset as well as the codebase too. You do use the World Editor right? Constructor? Showtool? I realize UE has a richer toolset right now and that we'd have to add a larger, more hands on support component to license TGEA in the AAA space, but that doesn't make the comparison flawed as far as I can tell. And the being "aimed at publishers, not developers" thing doesn't make any sense to me at all. Even if this were true, is there some reason why GG couldn't employ the same strategy?
If checking out Unity, I'm guessing that you'll be looking at the $1499 ($1998 with proprietary version control) "Pro" version (no source) and not the "Indie" version with blob shadows, static lighting, mac-only publishing, no shaders, no multimedia playback, avialable only to people or companies with <$100k in annual revenue? If I recall, realtime shadows / lighting, cross platform publishing, and version control are all important to you right?
I don't know what else to say...must be some pretty fancy footwork in the tool chain.
Really? Throw it all out huh? As for "late 80's early 90's code," I'm guessing you're probably taking about the networking code that runs multiplayer FPS matches with dozens of players over a 28.8 modem?
Sometimes old code is still around because it is good code. Let's not throw it all out just yet.
Modularization: GFX, SFX, Physics (partial)
Common middleware integration: FMOD, PhysX, ODE, OpCode (polysoup)
Agreed re: productivity and the importance of better tools / pipelines. All codebases have quirks, they're just often different quirks.
There's certainly more to shipping a game though than the speed at which you do it. You're looking at adopting a tool with no access to source code. What will you do if a very custom feature you need for your game is unsupported, or if a common middleware has yet to be integrated? Submit a feature request and hope it makes it into the next release? You can't even through money or more developers at the problem because it's a black box. That, to me, seems like an odd bet to make if finishing your game is a core concern.
Absolutely...these are key areas targeted for improvement in Torque 3D.
Aging codebase not a problem in and of itself. We have no problem changing things that need to be changed, but pointing to age for age sake is kind of strange. Usability improvements are definitely part of our focus.
Argghh....seems too complex...I really want simplicity if it can be achieved. There are good ideas here, but I don't like cutting off commercial use for people via the EULA. It's not off the table, but it's not my preference either.
Phil, $500 for the best of Unity + the best of Torque? That seems like it's shortchanging both technologies by a pretty significant margin. Unity's $1500 minimum if you want to do anything with it besides publish to the Mac with static lights, blob shadows and no shaders. Oh yeah...you can't make more than $100k or work for a company that does.
I can see people choosing Unity for quick, cheap prototyping on the Mac, but to finish a project of significant complexity? I might be dense, but I can't see it. All that aside, maybe they'll change stuff up with a Windows version and let people publish on Windows / Mac for less than $1500 (presuming <$100k/yr as well). If they do, awesome. I think that's good for creative game dev and good for games.
01/11/2009 (2:45 am)
@Phil Carlisle: Quote:I think you did right to post this blog. But your comparison of other products is incorrect. You are comparing products like 3dsMax, Maya, Flash to torque, when in reality you should be comparing C4, Unity and Lawgiver. Max, Maya and the rest are broad market commodity applications where as torque is a middleware library.
Phil, I agree with you that there's a serious distinction to be made. There many more modeling and Flash development seats to be licensed each year than there are engine middleware seats. Typically, markets that are a smaller, more specialized niche are more expensive as a result. That's the comparison I'm drawing.
Certainly, comparing Torque to C4, Unity, and ?Lawgiver (I've never heard of this) probably makes sense too. Notice that I did draw a comparison with Unity noting that it appeared they were headed in a different direction, more toward casual games than rich, immersive 3d games. I didn't mention C4 because I don't know much about it other than people say it's cleanly coded. They list it on their website as "professional grade" and a "next-generation game engine...for professionals." I presume this mean that they were focused on, well...professionals, but I only hear about C4 from Indies, so I'm not sure what to make of it. Very cool that they include the source at $350though.
Quote:The comparison with engines like Unreal are also flawed, because someone licenses unreal for the toolset, support and codebase, not just the codebase. Plus unreal is aimed at publishers, not developers.
Right...I presume people license TGEA for the toolset as well as the codebase too. You do use the World Editor right? Constructor? Showtool? I realize UE has a richer toolset right now and that we'd have to add a larger, more hands on support component to license TGEA in the AAA space, but that doesn't make the comparison flawed as far as I can tell. And the being "aimed at publishers, not developers" thing doesn't make any sense to me at all. Even if this were true, is there some reason why GG couldn't employ the same strategy?
Quote:I've been using torque for a very long time now, I've also used a ton of other engines, including a lot of open source ones recently. I'm waiting for Unity on the windows platform before evaluating that. I am trying to establish that I have no overall bias, do not consider myself a fanboy of any particular flavour of platform/engine.
If checking out Unity, I'm guessing that you'll be looking at the $1499 ($1998 with proprietary version control) "Pro" version (no source) and not the "Indie" version with blob shadows, static lighting, mac-only publishing, no shaders, no multimedia playback, avialable only to people or companies with <$100k in annual revenue? If I recall, realtime shadows / lighting, cross platform publishing, and version control are all important to you right?
I don't know what else to say...must be some pretty fancy footwork in the tool chain.
Quote:The way I see it, Torque hit the nail on the head with its original price point, because it was a) cheap enough that people could try it out b) cheap enough that they were forgiving of its "issues"
Now that you are thinking of changing the price point, then lets re-evaluate the situation:
Torque's codebase although extended with features has not significantly altered in its architecture since the first release. In order to consider changing the price, you have to factor in the need for a complete refactoring of the architecture. To be frank Torque has late 80's early 90's code and it shows.
Really? Throw it all out huh? As for "late 80's early 90's code," I'm guessing you're probably taking about the networking code that runs multiplayer FPS matches with dozens of players over a 28.8 modem?
Sometimes old code is still around because it is good code. Let's not throw it all out just yet.
Quote:If you are going to charge more, I'd expect to see heavy use of test driven development. Significant modularisation efforts, better integration with other useful technologies (i.e. allowing us to use common middleware, use STL etc).
Modularization: GFX, SFX, Physics (partial)
Common middleware integration: FMOD, PhysX, ODE, OpCode (polysoup)
Quote:One of the significant factors that affects people's choice of engine is productivity. It is fine quoting people who have produced games using the technology, but the issue is not whether it is possible to ship with torque, its how PRODUCTIVE you can be with it. Many people (myself included) are doing this part-time and productivity is the key to actually finishing a product. If there are too many barriers (like having an obscure file format with very picky export pipelines and no documentation) then many products that might have seen the light of day simply never get finished. The dream of GG when it started was to empower more people to produce games, but the harsh reality has been exaggerated by the quirky codebase and content pipeline. When you are on a limited budget, you really REALLY need the usability of your tools to be top notch. Which is generally where your flash's and your 3dsmax's shine (ok, for the complexity of the task they do).
Agreed re: productivity and the importance of better tools / pipelines. All codebases have quirks, they're just often different quirks.
There's certainly more to shipping a game though than the speed at which you do it. You're looking at adopting a tool with no access to source code. What will you do if a very custom feature you need for your game is unsupported, or if a common middleware has yet to be integrated? Submit a feature request and hope it makes it into the next release? You can't even through money or more developers at the problem because it's a black box. That, to me, seems like an odd bet to make if finishing your game is a core concern.
Quote:So a big issue for me, would be that to consider changing the price, you accept that usability has to be *significantly* easier. It has to be easy to incorporate content from third party tools, it has to be easy to prototype gameplay and environments for artists. It has to be easy to then deploy the game across to its target platform.
Absolutely...these are key areas targeted for improvement in Torque 3D.
Quote:Fix the two problems of an ageing codebase and poor usability and I believe changing the price is absolutely fine.
Aging codebase not a problem in and of itself. We have no problem changing things that need to be changed, but pointing to age for age sake is kind of strange. Usability improvements are definitely part of our focus.
Quote:
So here are my suggestions for pricing structure:
$0-$50 A "tools only" version. No source, non commercial use only.
$150-250 A "non commercial indie" license. Includes source, but doesn't allow for commercial distribution of products.
$250-$500 A "commercial indie" licence. Includes source, allows distribution of commercial products.
$1000-$1500 A "commercial" license. Source included, support included, unlimited product releases/skus.
Argghh....seems too complex...I really want simplicity if it can be achieved. There are good ideas here, but I don't like cutting off commercial use for people via the EULA. It's not off the table, but it's not my preference either.
Quote:Currently you're biggest real direct competitor for comparison has to be Unity. I'm sure you're well aware of unity's capabilities and by all accounts its usability and stability are far in advance of torques (I dont use it, but most of the people I know do). The significant difference between Unity and Torque is the source availability. Torque would definitely have the advantage here, if it werent for the outdated codebase. Many people I know have opted for the non-source Unity because the source access has little value if the source is difficult to use. A $500 source-available product that has the features, usability and stability of Unity would be a no brainer.
Phil, $500 for the best of Unity + the best of Torque? That seems like it's shortchanging both technologies by a pretty significant margin. Unity's $1500 minimum if you want to do anything with it besides publish to the Mac with static lights, blob shadows and no shaders. Oh yeah...you can't make more than $100k or work for a company that does.
I can see people choosing Unity for quick, cheap prototyping on the Mac, but to finish a project of significant complexity? I might be dense, but I can't see it. All that aside, maybe they'll change stuff up with a Windows version and let people publish on Windows / Mac for less than $1500 (presuming <$100k/yr as well). If they do, awesome. I think that's good for creative game dev and good for games.
#234
Yeah, SVN / CVS is just too nuts with all the licensees we have with Torque now...and you're right on about the releases being more stable doing things the way they're done now. With a rapidly evolving codebase like Torque, it's a much better way to do things.
On the new workflow stuff, yes...I'll try to loop as many interested parties in early as possible. The art pipeline is a big deal, something that's getting a lot of attention, but there are many design decisions still to be made. It would probably be best to get to a more stable state before we brought in lots of testers. I'll definitely add you to the list though. Thanks for volunteering!
01/11/2009 (2:50 am)
@Joe:Quote:Back in the day, there was CVS/SVN access. ;)
It was also a pain because new features/bug fixes were merged almost daily and keeping up with HEAD was not fun (if you were one of those who tried to keep up with the latest and greatest). When they stopped doing that and just started having releases a couple times per year or whatever, it was a lot less hectic. New versions were also more stable.
You caught my attention when you hinted at improvements in workflow, though. As one who has a full-time day job, plus overtime, plus travel (gotta love IT consulting), workflow is a major factor. I need to accomplish something, or it's hard to stick with the project at all. In the end, the price probably doesn't matter that much to me as long as I can accomplish something. I've been throwing money at GG for years, and I probably won't stop anytime soon. ;)
Yeah, SVN / CVS is just too nuts with all the licensees we have with Torque now...and you're right on about the releases being more stable doing things the way they're done now. With a rapidly evolving codebase like Torque, it's a much better way to do things.
On the new workflow stuff, yes...I'll try to loop as many interested parties in early as possible. The art pipeline is a big deal, something that's getting a lot of attention, but there are many design decisions still to be made. It would probably be best to get to a more stable state before we brought in lots of testers. I'll definitely add you to the list though. Thanks for volunteering!
#235
Ohhh....this is going to be *really* fun =) I can't show what I want to show yet, but please do keep watching...
Thanks for the thoughts on C4 btw...sounds like a pretty impressive tech. I'll check them out in more detail perhaps.
01/11/2009 (2:56 am)
@J.C. Smith:Quote:So the question is, if the price gets boosted to $1500 or so, will the lighting and shadows be able to stack up with C4s?
Ohhh....this is going to be *really* fun =) I can't show what I want to show yet, but please do keep watching...
Thanks for the thoughts on C4 btw...sounds like a pretty impressive tech. I'll check them out in more detail perhaps.
#236
01/11/2009 (3:09 am)
Quote:Thanks for adding me to the list.
On the new workflow stuff, yes...I'll try to loop as many interested parties in early as possible. The art pipeline is a big deal, something that's getting a lot of attention, but there are many design decisions still to be made. It would probably be best to get to a more stable state before we brought in lots of testers. I'll definitely add you to the list though. Thanks for volunteering!
#237
Gerald, I don't agree with you here. Did you ever work with a 3d engine supporting a real-time feedback material editor or even a shader editor? You can bring the material up to the point. You can tweak it until it looks real. This is needed. It can look different with different lights, spec maps and normal maps can be different. You get best results only with real-time feedback.
01/11/2009 (3:30 am)
"In-game material editors aren't a great idea, IMO, at least as the only option. It's better to be able to tweak the materials in the modeling tool..."Gerald, I don't agree with you here. Did you ever work with a 3d engine supporting a real-time feedback material editor or even a shader editor? You can bring the material up to the point. You can tweak it until it looks real. This is needed. It can look different with different lights, spec maps and normal maps can be different. You get best results only with real-time feedback.
#238
Thanks for the ideas on the survey stuff. As Deborah said, we've done some of that already, but you're right, more data is rarely unhelpful.
0_o There's that "since IAC" thing again. The whole conspiracy theory thing baffles me. You're talking with the person who makes every last call about what will happen to Torque or on GG.com. There's no direction from IAC at all. I never talk with them, nor they with me.
Let's talk about the "who's a little guy" stuff though. GG's mission is to help people who will help us disrupt the games industry. If you have zero ambition to make a game, you're not helping to serve our mission. That doesn't mean you're not welcome, but that when design decisions surface that come between people who want to make games and share them with the world and people who just want to tinker in isolation, we're going to come down in favor of people who produce. I think we'll still be one of the best technologies for people to study and learn from, but that's not what we're building Torque for as a firt priority. There's NO redefinition there. That's exactly what GG always wanted to do. I'm sure you've seen more than one Jeff Tunnell post that could be summarized as "shut up and make your game." It wasn't always pretty, but it was never unclear.
Thank you for the kind words. I'm concerned about the economics of course too. I wouldn't be suggesting that we changed anything unless I thought it were going to result in (1), (2), (3), and (4). I wonder what the tolerance threshold his at any pricepoint. It's a primary concern. That's why I wrote this blog and it's why I'm listening intently to the feedback.
Well, maybe. When TGE came out, it was the only thing anywhere near real engine tech at that price. Now, that's not the case. There are open source projects, XNA and other inexpensive alternatives. There's also TGB, which is a great way to get started. I don't think we're betraying GG's core customer base by increasing the price of our high-end tech at all. And if the barrier to entry for Torque ends up being $250 or something higher than it currently is, I guess we'll see if there are any fewer games and game projects as a result, but my guess is that probably won't be the case.
I appreciate the genuine concern though and thanks for weighing in.
01/11/2009 (3:34 am)
@Gary Briggs:Thanks for the ideas on the survey stuff. As Deborah said, we've done some of that already, but you're right, more data is rarely unhelpful.
Quote:Re-reading the blog post, number four: "Remain an affordable option for the little guy". My feeling is that since IAC came along, GG has chosen to redefine "the little guy", so that it's no longer "hobbyists and people trying to learn about game programming" by removing "anyone who isn't going to release a commercial game". Remember that Amateurs, Hobbyists and Students from question #1 above are equally valid customers to GG as professionals - GG get just as much money from me as you do from any developer at "real" indie companies.
0_o There's that "since IAC" thing again. The whole conspiracy theory thing baffles me. You're talking with the person who makes every last call about what will happen to Torque or on GG.com. There's no direction from IAC at all. I never talk with them, nor they with me.
Let's talk about the "who's a little guy" stuff though. GG's mission is to help people who will help us disrupt the games industry. If you have zero ambition to make a game, you're not helping to serve our mission. That doesn't mean you're not welcome, but that when design decisions surface that come between people who want to make games and share them with the world and people who just want to tinker in isolation, we're going to come down in favor of people who produce. I think we'll still be one of the best technologies for people to study and learn from, but that's not what we're building Torque for as a firt priority. There's NO redefinition there. That's exactly what GG always wanted to do. I'm sure you've seen more than one Jeff Tunnell post that could be summarized as "shut up and make your game." It wasn't always pretty, but it was never unclear.
Quote:I have always very strongly felt that GG do a lot of good things, but I fear that raising the price point much more will hemorrhage far more customers than will be offset by the extra money made. Just looking around, it's true that there's some games made with Torque out there, but the sheer number of them is massively massively less than the number of Torque licenses that have been purchased. At what point do you wonder how much of your customer base you're going to lose with a substantial ramping of price?
Thank you for the kind words. I'm concerned about the economics of course too. I wouldn't be suggesting that we changed anything unless I thought it were going to result in (1), (2), (3), and (4). I wonder what the tolerance threshold his at any pricepoint. It's a primary concern. That's why I wrote this blog and it's why I'm listening intently to the feedback.
Quote:One last thing, even if you declare that "people who don't want to buy the top of the line engine can buy the cheaper one", you're going to lose customers. Because rather than buy an older version of an engine, people are likely to buy something else. And recent blogs about chucking out TGE altogether - soon the barrier to entry on GG won't be a hundred bucks [as it was when I joined], but instead 300 bucks. As various people have mentioned, that garners a generally higher calibre of community member, but at the same time it's a poke in the eye to GG's original and core customer base.
Well, maybe. When TGE came out, it was the only thing anywhere near real engine tech at that price. Now, that's not the case. There are open source projects, XNA and other inexpensive alternatives. There's also TGB, which is a great way to get started. I don't think we're betraying GG's core customer base by increasing the price of our high-end tech at all. And if the barrier to entry for Torque ends up being $250 or something higher than it currently is, I guess we'll see if there are any fewer games and game projects as a result, but my guess is that probably won't be the case.
I appreciate the genuine concern though and thanks for weighing in.
#239
Holy crap. The knife? I'm just trying to help make good engine tech. Please spare me the knife, you win! Take the award!
01/11/2009 (3:35 am)
@Marc Shaerer:Quote:And don't forget: you might have won the 2008 award, but Unity and a few others were in the final round as well and the knife can easily turn around next year with Unity beeing available for windows as well starting with Unity3D 2.5, when it becomes usable to all your beloved userbase.
Holy crap. The knife? I'm just trying to help make good engine tech. Please spare me the knife, you win! Take the award!
#240
No worries Michael. I don't think we'd do anything to the license from here that would make it more restrictive than it is now. My inclination is to make it simpler and more liberal where possible. I'm not even sure I like the idea of a license delta anymore...it seems widely abused in any case, perhaps a feature delta is better.
01/11/2009 (3:38 am)
@Michael Hall:Quote:The license change idea is pure evil however. Any change to the existing license scheme would break the dream of many here. I can see the justifications and argument for a price/per license point/price adjustment -- I just wouldn't like it.
No worries Michael. I don't think we'd do anything to the license from here that would make it more restrictive than it is now. My inclination is to make it simpler and more liberal where possible. I'm not even sure I like the idea of a license delta anymore...it seems widely abused in any case, perhaps a feature delta is better.
Torque Owner Gerald Fishel
Development Ninja
True, but that's also still $1500+ more than other comparable Indie engines, so if they're planning on charging that much they'll have to demonstrate that it's worth $1500 more than the other Indie engines.
I'm not sure I understand how somebody could WANT less tools, but I guess I'll take your word on that. Honestly, I prefer working with Max and Maya myself, and so do my artists. When I talk about toolsets, I'm not necessarily talking about a clone of UnrealEd, but some tools to streamline the process of moving content from apps like Max and Maya into Torque would be just as good or better (in my opinion). As far as I know all we have now is DTS exporters. DTS is nice for what it is, but it's limited as far as being able to build levels with it, and the file format seems pretty funky to try and write our own tools to work with it anyway. And the material options are limited as far as what we can move out of the art tools into the game.
Some things like being able to work with T3D materials in the art tools without having to map materials to texture names. Maybe create some material plugins that extend the Direct3D shaders in Max, or even just fix the name of the shader constants in the engine to match what are used by tools like Max and FXComposer, to make it a smoother transition would help. There are lots of little things that can be done to make working with Torque more productive.
I've created some tools like this myself, and maybe I'll polish them up and make them available to others down the road too, but those are the kinds of things that would help set Torque ahead of the other Indie engines for workflow and make it worth paying more for. If they already existed, that would be many more hours I could be spending on my gameplay features instead of making tools to keep the artists working :p