Game Development Community

Torque 3D Sidebar - Pricing and Licensing

by Brett Seyler · 01/09/2009 (6:57 am) · 369 comments

static.garagegames.com/static/pg/blogs/jason-hetu/Torque-3D_Development-Blog-Header.png
68.233.5.139/~transfer/brett/buffett-rounded-bordered.pngThis is probably the most candid blog post I'll write all year. It's also likely to be quite long. I'm aiming here to communicate a lot of things and I'm hoping they come out in nice fluid arc, but we'll see. It's supposed to be about GG and you, but we might take some twists and turns getting there. I should also warn anyone who's willing to read through this that there are no clear answers in this blog, just thoughts and questions.

While I'm sitting here starting to write this, I'm thinking about how much I like reading Warren Buffett's shareholder letters. I'm certainly not alone in admiring his frank, honest, pull-no-punches style. Buffett's customers are his shareholders, but I notice that very few companies write to their customers this way. What would it be like if they did?

I'm certainly not arrogant enough to draw any kind of comparison between me and the Sage of Omaha, but I really going to try to follow his example in candor and clear communication about business goals.

Most of you probably don't know that I did finance and investment work before joining GG. Though I've always been into games and technology my whole life, it's still a a very weird kind of transition to make from that button up world to the laid back, but hyper-competitve world of a startup software company. Obviously, GG is much more fun, but it's almost demanding in a lot of the same ways finance was for me. You might be surprised how much business is just business, and finding ways to succeed and get more done is universal across those kind of boundaries.

There are a bunch of subjects I'll likely wander around in this post, but the one that bears this post's title is the focus...

RUH-ROH! I can hear the alarm bells going off..."GG is raising prices! I knew it!!!!!!!!!!"

I'll just tear the Band-aid away quickly then. Torque 3D will have a higher price tag than GG'ers are used to from Torque. How much higher? I'm not sure yet to be honest...I've given it a lot of thought, but in the past few months, when I've looked to you guys for feedback, it's always been helpful and understanding, so I figured I'd push my luck and do it again =)

Here are the core principles for GG and Torque that I'm trying to stay true to in working this out:


(1) Make sure that Torque licensing is a sustainable business that allows for signicant reinvestment in the technology--enough to keep Torque at the forefront of modern game engines.


(2) Eat our own dog food. This means we use what we sell, reinforcing the need to reinvest in the technology.


(3) Leverage modern distribution options. This means web publishing, downloadable channels, and any other efforts that upset that status quo in publishing and put more money and control in the developer's hands.


(4) Remain an affordable option for the little guy.



Obviously there's a balance to be struck attempting to serve both (1) and (4). However, there may be less conflict than you'd think. For example, let me talk about (1) a little bit.

Why I'm not worried about Epic or AAA

We made a decision with Torque a long time ago not to compete head to head the top competition in the AAA space. That competitions has emerged in the past decade to be Epic's Unreal engine, first and foremost. While Torque can do a LOT of what Unreal can do, we're executing on a much different business model and strategy...part of it is idealistic, part's pragmatic.

68.233.5.139/~transfer/brett/markrein-rounded-bordered.pngThe Unreal engine is driven by the needs of Epic's studio to deliver every year, without fail, on a game with the highest visual impact possible. They succeed, more or less, in doing this with Unreal Tournament and Gears of War. These huge budget AAA games subsidize the enormous cost of developing technology that keeps the games looking better than anything else. By extension, the Unreal engine is percieved as being the best technology at any given time. (Seem like circular logic? Keep reading.)

Sure...there are disturbances in the force. Upstarts like Crytek or Gamebryo steal the limelight now and then, but let's be realistic, Unreal dominates AAA engine licensing. When I say AAA, I mean licensing for use in big budget AAA titles. If you're building a $10-$30M game, you're looking at Unreal first. It inspires confidence in your publisher (guaranteeing more money) and it says to the media and press that "this game is going to achieve a certain visual quality bar that you expect from games made with Unreal." This last part in particular is crucial to the hype-train that gets gamers to pay $60 for a game on release day.

Sound like any other industry you can think of? Come...let's all share in the let down and pretend we didn't just get screwed.

I'd be lying if I said I didn't admire Epic's success in both engine licensing and game development. They've figured out how the game is played and beat everyone under the current ruleset. My hat's off to them. But a lot of this blockbuster-game-driven perception about engines is crap IMO. The dirty little secret in AAA games is that great art, far more than tech, creates visual quality. Even so, "UE = visual superiority => best engine" is the common thinking in the games industry and no one--NO ONE--has been able to break Epic's stranglehold on this section of the middleware market for the better part of decade.

How would you change things if it were your desire to do so?

There are two paths that I see...

You can try to beat Epic at their own game. To do this you'd need a premiere game studio with huge budgets to consistently impress on developers and the press that Unreal is no longer the best performing engine tech around. This means truly high end tech and *really* high end artists that can push the technology's boundaries.

Crytek appears to be trying to execute on this strategy, and they've had some success. id, while a major innovator in game dev technology, appears only casually interested in upsetting the state of Epic's AAA middleware domination. Gamebryo has some good tech and a good marketing / sales team, but no dedicated studio to consistently test the tech and then demonstrate where they stack up next to Unreal or other AAA competitors, so I think they're doomed to fail in AAA. Valve plays a role similar to id. They appear to only casually pursuing licensing of their Source engine.

So that's it... Crytek is the only reasonable candidate to unseat Epic as the AAA engine licensing champion. Why don't I think that will happen? In order to do it, Crytek needs to do it year after year for a sustained period of time, and that demands a lot of money. Epic's makes financially successful games that subsidize the costs of developing their tech. Crytek, to date, has not.

Even for hardcore gamers and the press, it's not just about the good looks, it's also about being on the right platforms, being able to tell a good story in-game. Developers have to find the right gameplay hooks to make a game rewarding. As visually impressive as Crysis is (far more than any UE3 game IMO), the game lacked what was needed to achieve maintream (and financial) success. Minimum hardware requirements that were totally off the charts on the game's release didn't help much either.


68.233.5.139/~transfer/brett/aaa-well-served.png

Does it make sense for GarageGames to try to go to head-to-head with Epic in the same fashion? Well, maybe we'd consider it if the AAA engine licensing space were a growth market or currently underserved, but it's neither. AAA engine licensing has been a fairly stagnant market for years now and Epic'c never conceded more than about 50% of the available revenue, so I don't know about you, but doing bloody battle for a slice of a pie that isn't growing seems kind silly to me.

So, if not head-to-head with Epic, where does Torque fit? What's the angle? Well, our goal is not really to "beat" Epic, it's to change the game (in the "meta" sense of the word). We think it's dumb that games cost $60 and that the best selling games published by the biggest publishers all essentially answer to Walmart.


Games should be cheaper.

Gamers should have more variety.

Developers should feel comfortable taking more risks.



None of these are possible without upsetting the status quo. This is why we created Torque and put a $100 no royalties price tag on it in 2001. This is why we created InstantAction.com so that we could build our own audience and connect gamers to developers with no interference from publishers or retailers. Both efforts serve the same goal of making it easier (and more affordable) for developers to take risks.

Torque exists to provide developers (starting with our own game studio) with the means to take these kinds of risks, to create games that can achieve AAA-level visual quality, but with a focus on what makes games fun. We want our studio and you to innovate in ways that matter most to gamers. Portal didn't need next-gen visuals or a multi-million dollare engine to win over gamers. It could have easily been built with Torque. Just the same, Marble Blast Ultra didn't need super-high end rendering. To make the point even clearer, look at Phil Hassey's Galcon. Phil built this game in Python all by himself and it's currently one of the most played games on InstantAction.


68.233.5.139/~transfer/brett/portal-bordered.png

We think this evolution, bridging the divide between developers and gamers, enabling greater risk taking at lower cost, is where the industry must go. The faster it gets there, the more Torque makes sense to a wider audience of game developers. As a company, we've always aimed to support platforms and technologies that make this happen faster. I put Steam, WiiWare, XBLA, PSN, id's Quakelive and InstantAction.com all on that list. In fact, without Steam, I doubt Valve could comfortably afford to take the kind or risks they do. We'd all, as gamers and game developers, be much worse off without if they hadn't bucked the system and created the most effective digital distribution platform on the planet. (Go Valve!)

Let's think again about the balance between enabling the little guy, and being in a position to reinvest in Torque and sustain this effort to encourage risk taking in games. Who do we mean by the little guy? Does a hobbyist who never publishes anything serve these goals? Probably not...let's talk about that...

We're building Torque to enable a particular set of developers: those who can persevere though the challenge of game development. This means outfits like Fro Games, Stickman Studios, Sickhead Games, and Tilted Mill to cite some recent examples. In the recent Game Developer profile on TGEA for the Front Line awards, I think they hit the nail on the head.


68.233.5.139/~transfer/Pics/Frontline_Banner.jpg
68.233.5.139/~transfer/brett/andy-frontline.png


Are you one of these developers? A lot of you might not know yet. Some of you may not know whether you even want to push that hard or take that much time. You might be happy with game development as a curiousity and have no interest in ever publishing your work. This does not mean Torque is not for you.

Just as Photoshop, Flash, Max and Maya are built for professional use with professional licensees in mind, so is Torque. And just as plenty of amateurs and hobbyists use Adobe and Autodesk tools with no intention of making their work public, so will amateur and hobbyist Torque users. Still, often times, these tools make professionals of people who didn't know if they had what it in them, and we hope Torque does the same.

If we want Torque to effectively serve professionals and that set of developers who have the fortitude and talent to give it a real shot, we need to re-evaluate Torque's license fee. We can't do this effectively for $150 / seat, at least not with Torque 3D. Torque has thousands and thousands of licensees, but developing engine technology is very complicated and very expensive--certainly more complicated and expensive than developing games.

Attaching a $150 / seat price Torque has created a quality perception that does not do justice to Torque's capabilities. GarageGames could *easily* spin out a new business under a different banner and sell TGEA / Torque 3D right next to all the other major AAA engines for hundreds of thousands of dollars per title. Why don't we? Because it doesn't help us with (3) or (4). We'd be quickly assimilated into the tiny space left over by Epic and fighting tooth and nail with everyone else for 3-4 licensing tile deals per year. It wouldn't help us with games. It would disrupt the broken industry model. It wouldn't do much of anything good for games or gamers.

So what price makes sense? What's commensurate with the value Torque provides? Again, I don't know the answer to this yet. It's not $150 / seat and it's not $295 / seat. Perhaps it's $1000. Perhaps it's more. I look at products like Flash ($699) or 3ds Max ($3495) / Maya ($4995) and compare them with Torque. Torque is more complex from an engineering perspective and Torque is in a smaller, more niche market. Both of these factors would argue for a higher price. What about (4)? What's affordable for the little guy? What's going to be the right price that makes it acceptable for developers who ship product to feel comfortable taking risks with a good chance of success? Hard questions to answer.


68.233.5.139/~transfer/brett/pricing.png

I've also noticed that Unity, which appears to be competing more with Flash than game engines, is priced many multiples higher than Torque and yet, it's attracted a license base of primarily hobbyists and amateur developers. Even though Unity now offers a lower priced "Indie" version of its tool that deprecates major features and significant license freedom, for a long time you couldn't buy Unity for less than $1000 / seat. How does that compare with Torque (a much more capable and mature engine technology that actually provides source code)?

There's another consideration that's really important to me, and that's all you reading this. Many of you have been loyal GG customers and Torque users for a long time...in some cases much longer than I've been here myself. You've become accustomed to Torque's low price. Even if it costs GG money in the short term, I don't want to see this community lose is vibrance or engagement because Torque's no longer an affordable technology to stay current with.

While I haven't figured out how it will work yet, I have decided that when Torque 3D is ready for relase, we'll offer it with an option that makes it much more affordable for TGEA owners to make the move. New licensees who don't already own TGEA at that point will pay full price, whatever that ends up being. I should also note that TGEA 1.8 will probably remain an affordable option at the low end throughout 2009, but if we can, we'll provide a better, affordable substitute with Torque 3D...perhaps with some sort of meaningful feature or license delta. This might mean that Indie vs. Commercial changes, or goes away as well.

My ideal outcome is that in mid-2009, everyone who wants to continue working with Torque in the future will be using Torque 3D and sharing resources and knowledge with the rest of the community. This product is the largest investment we've ever made in engine tech and our expectations are high, but better I think to disclose our thoughts and intentions on things like this sooner rather than later. I'm very confident that for those of you who are really engaged in making games, upgrading to Torque 3D will be an easy choice well justified by the value it adds to your talent and dedication.

More sidebars and development blogs to come. This is post #5.

Torque 3D development blogs:



About the author

Since 2007, I've done my best to steer Torque's development and brand toward the best opportunities in games middleware.

#201
01/10/2009 (7:19 pm)
From Jeremy:

Quote:I wanted to point out one small thing.
You really shouldn't compare T3D to products like flash.

Flash runs on just about any platform with a browser and a plugin at one fixed cost. ($695)($199upgrade)
TGE - $150? - TGEA - $150 (early adoption?) - T3D ($More)
T2D($More) - Upgrade? ($More?)

iphone? cost more
wii? cost more
xbox360? cost more/different product

I didn't know that Flash ran on the iPhone / Wii / 360 natively...hmmm.

Quote:
"Torque is more complex from an engineering perspective"
Not to bash you or anything, but when you make comments like the above you really are asking to get nailed. Spoken like someone from a marketing department that knows nothing about nothing. ;(

Not to bash you or anything, but maybe you can tell me why Flash is more complicated than a modern game engine? I might know nothing about nothing, but I know that it took Microsoft just under a year to build a competitive technology to Flash...they wanted no part of building a modern game engine...you know why? The cost / complexity are crazily prohibitive.

I'm happy to have my opinions challenged or "nailed," but I do expecct them to be challenged with substance.

Flash is special because it achieved extraordinarly adoption, not because it is a particularly remarkable technology. Credit Adobe and Macromedia's business savvy for Flash's success.

One more caveat that might make my original statement clearer (perhaps we don't disagree all that much)...when I say Torque is more complicated from an engineering perspective, I'm referring to the engine and not the toolset. The authoring tools for Flash are indeed more polished, and arguably more complex than Torque's current World Editor.
#202
01/10/2009 (7:22 pm)
First off I'd like to commend gg for doing post like these even if it is a 'dammed if you do, dammed if you don't' type of affair. I think it's a brave and wise move. I'd also like to say on the documentation thing, from my perspective, that's been one of the biggest improvements on gg since TGB (but then again, I only mainly used TGB, so take what you well from that), so well done on that front too.

Regarding the pricing, the only thing I would add is a new format no-one has mentioned (unless I missed it here) and few have tried.

The guys at blade3d.com are using a 3-tier monthly subscription format seems to be in the same target market as gg (apart from the fact their engine is dx based meaning windows/xbox only):

Here's the url www.blade3d.com/Pricing/tabid/137/Default.aspx but in summary (check the link for terms of each etc):

Hobbyist
* Price: $14.95/month or $149.50/year
Independent
* Price: $29.95/month or $299.50/year
Professional
* Price: $99.95/mo or $999.50/year

Now I don't know whether this is a good idea or not (with times and all, but WOW subscriptions are up right?), or maybe a little to new/wild for gg or it's current user base to consider, but it certainly allows access and affordability to all and maybe might encourage those who wouldn't finish a game normally, to maybe finish? Perhaps used in combination with the traditional fix pricing perhaps? That's my 2 pence (don't got cents here ;-) )
#203
01/10/2009 (7:34 pm)
@Brett:

I have to be honest, the comments on here are making me feel more and more despondent. The price seems to be rising up to 2K, with the added benefit that all addons and content packs will now be higher priced as well. A limited binary-only is being floated, but to be honest, I'm not sure of the worth of that, at least to me. If T3D were 100%, and everything was available via scripting, and it were faster, then perhaps, but I've just had to fix or add too many things to not have source code. And whenever anyone says: "I sure wish this feature were added to the engine", it's always followed by the mantra: "You have the source, do it yourself".

I know everyone needs to make money, and that we all need to put food on the table. I hope that's why you're really considering this.

I think I'm going to drop out for a while, see how this all falls out later. I hope there's still a "Garage Games" that's aimed at hobbyists and indies when I return.
#204
01/10/2009 (7:35 pm)
Charging like wow (once / game install and then every month) or like blade3d is a silly idea. it works with wow maybe but that will loose a lot of guys along the way. I will personally NEVER do that, although there is quite a trend (lead by micro$oft) to charge every month for a software you can buy once. It's just another way of saying 'I want profit'. Don't get me wrong, I want profit too, but that's just too much. These guys should pay the creators of the internet 50c for each $1 earned, without it they would sell retail on neighborhood stores to this day. internet gave them the entire world's market, so why isn't that enough?
#205
01/10/2009 (7:42 pm)
Quote:You guys are releasing too many engines too close to each other. It is starting to shake people's faith in your commitment to quality. People feel left behind when you talk about releasing a new engine when there are still unaddressed bugs in prior engines. If you need to turn more profit, maybe you could concentrate on more content packs or creating more commercial games using your tech.

Please add more shiny features standard in most engines. This includes an integrated physics solution and stencil buffer/shadowmap shadows. Add those in successfully and you can name your price.

? Quality or features...seems like we have to choose a balance right? Quality / polish are top priority for Torque 3D, but it just so happens that we have enough engineering manpower to add some really cool features as well.

On the "too many engines" thing...this is sort of an illusion, and one we'd like to avoid. Remember in my blog a month or so ago when I said that TGE going away means the name "TGEA" is kind of redundant and we'd likely rename TGEA to "Torque 3D"? That's basically what's happening here. While TGEA 1.8 has come along way from where it was a year ago, the next update is going to push well beyond what would justify a "TGEA 2.0" name. Seems like an appropriate time to rename TGEA --> Torque 3D no? The point is that this isn't a new engine line to be maintained, it's the ongoing development of our 3D engine last released as TGEA 1.8. The "too many engines" think was certainly true a couple years ago when both TGE and TGEA were actively seeing development, but no longer. It's just Torque 3D, and later Torque 2D, from here.
#206
01/10/2009 (7:58 pm)
Here's a simple fact guys. We have a lot of engineers, documentation, marketing, management, and contractors on the Torque 3D project. There are also all the HR/support and other staff which make all these other people's job's possible.

This isn't a handful of people hammering on "Torque with Shaders". There's no way that the $295 price point works for Torque 3D. So, we need to start considering a new price. That isn't an evil plot or rake in the profits deal... it is just reality.

I really think Brett's original blog post is very good and covers a lot of ground... and really I think this is pretty telling:

Quote:I have decided that when Torque 3D is ready for release, we'll offer it with an option that makes it much more affordable for TGEA owners to make the move.

I think GG has always been pretty darn good about the prices for engine upgrades.

Great discussion and I can tell you guys that we're loving seeing people care so much! Thanks for all the feedback!
#207
01/10/2009 (9:30 pm)
I don't see any need to modify the current licensing scheme. Modify the price, and for the "hobbyists" have a free or cheap binary-only version that they can tinker with. If they want to release, then they have to upgrade to indie.

I wouldn't mind paying double the current price of TGEA. When it gets to $1000 or higher, though, it becomes difficult to justify, unless there are powerful new tools in the content pipeline that make production easier. I expect engine code to have bugs that need to be squashed. However, I would like to see tools that are actually useful for creating a game.

I'd also like to be able to have Fallout 3-quality terrain detail, but that's probably wishful thinking. I did see a mention about terrain improvements, so I'll keep my fingers crossed for that, as well as perhaps a good "terrain paging" system to allow for truly expansive worlds. Atlas is nice, but is quite "clunky." ;)
#208
01/10/2009 (9:56 pm)
I totally understand that small, committed indie teams, as opposed to the "dreamers", are where GG wants to focus their energies. And I can totally understand that there needs to be a lot more revenue coming in to support development, so a higher price needs to be considered. But I just hope that GG understands that those dreamers have given them a lot of money over the years, and will most likely continue to do so if the price is low enough. Clearly, there are many of us who are prepared to pay in the thousands, but there will be many more of us who will never give you another cent if the price goes much above where it is now. So the question is, how many people are in each of those groups? How many dreamers can you afford to lose as customers?

I once read about a proposed system for music pricing that may be useful to you guys. The idea is that an established artist announces that he will be releasing a new album soon, and asks his fans to pre-purchase the album for whatever it is worth to them. This pre-purchase is a binding pledge to pay up to that amount of money when the album is released (a non-binding poll might also work, but is riskier). When the album is nearly ready for release, the artist can look at all the pledged amounts, and set a price point that maximizes his profit. He then announces that price, and anyone who had pledged at least that amount gets it for that amount. Everyone else is released from their pledge, but they obviously have the option of buying the album at the released price, as does anyone else who didn't participate.

Having said all that, I rather doubt that there will be a single price point that will achieve what you want. I'm personally in favor of a tiered licensing scheme where a non-releasable license costs roughly what an indie license does now, and the terms of a more expensive commercial license kick in at a lower level of expected profit.
#209
01/10/2009 (10:30 pm)
#210
01/10/2009 (10:35 pm)
Quote:
...making a content pack of 20+ models with textures, scripts and all that and charging for that at the average price of a low poly chair on turbosquid isn't really paying your bills, ain't it? the low price forces a content developer to produce more, always something new and fast; you end up with either crappy content or you just don't meet the deadlines. To make a living off that you need a release a week; And to be a successful release you need to work on it 1.5/2 months; now that's an equation I want to see einstein solve..

I was reading a real estate book or was that a video? Who knows years ago, and one of the things that struck me is the guy talked about going to a seminar where everyone there were millionaires from renting real estate. Someone asked him what he did and he said I rent Condos. They said " How much do you make off each Condo?" He said $100 a month, they all laughed and said "You will never get rich making only $100 a month off of each Condo!". He replied "Yea, but I have 10,000 of them."

You don't make money selling something one time at a high price, you make it by pricing your product accordingly and selling a lot of the product. Perhaps $20 for a content pack is too much if they are not selling.

Just an FYI. My best friend growing up's Dad owned several gas station chains in our state. Profit from $3.00 gas is about $12 cents. Out of that .12 cents they have to pay payroll, taxes, building rent (or payments), electricity, credit card fees, so they are left will almost nothing. Ever wonder why gas stations always have something else to sell? They make up for the small profit by selling volume, and they can only do that by pricing their gas competitively with the other stations or start a gas war by lowering and taking less profit and selling more.

What this has to do with Torque 3D I don't know, but it sounded good when I was writing it...

Signed... Einstein:)
#211
01/10/2009 (10:35 pm)
I would have to echo some of the other statements here about the workflow of Torque. While I have not had much experience with TGEA or TGE, I have had a lot of experience with TGB. TGB has a pretty good work flow, but there are many many improvements that could be made to it's general usability, easing its work flow. This is one of the single biggest issues facing middleware solutions at the moment, not graphics or sound (although, the sound subsystem needs a major overhaul in TGB). If GG wants Torque to lead the way and not compete directly on the triple A front, then maybe consider work flow and usability enhancements in your games that speed up the creation of new content. Bug are the other issue and one that is tied to
usability.

This is just one of the things you need to do to justify a price hike over the $1000 barrier.
#212
01/10/2009 (10:47 pm)
@Wes: I totally agree with about needing to justify a price increase. I don't think we'll see TGB go up into the range you're mentioning though. It's too important as a first step in game development and intro to Torque. Even though it's valuable for real, commercial game dev of casual games, it's probably the best beginner's tool out there as well, so we'll likely keep it in a lower price range.
#213
01/10/2009 (10:53 pm)
Quote:
Dude...do you know it costs to license Unreal 2 without royalties? TGEA is *well* beyond that and Epic still gets $300k + for tech that's now many generations old and never was exactly "clean." There's also no easy path to the Wii with it. Ask people who've used it, TGEA is easily in that league or better.

I'm pretty sure that was a design decision not to support wii.
Not an "oops, we made our graphics technology so supperior, it doesn't run on wii".

I've used the unreal engine for mods and game development for a long time.
Everyone I have worked with has stated Unreal > Torque by leaps and bounds.
The toolset is worth the price of admission alone.

Heres a feature list incase you need reminding.
http://www.unrealtechnology.com/features.php?ref=past-versions


You want to compare yourself to epic, then post Unreal Engine 2's game history versus TGEA.
No brainer.

The problem I have is you say, you are going after one market.
Yet you want to price it like another market.
Can't have your cake and eat it to.
Well maybe you can, but you might be eating alone.


Quote:
I didn't know that Flash ran on the iPhone / Wii / 360 natively...hmmm.
Adobe annoucned a flash player for iphone already.
Wii supports flash but not the latest version. Nintendo also has public javascript files to access the wii mote for would be web developers.

Quote:
Not to bash you or anything, but maybe you can tell me why Flash is more complicated than a modern game engine? I might know nothing about nothing, but I know that it took Microsoft just under a year to build a competitive technology to Flash...they wanted no part of building a modern game engine...you know why? The cost / complexity are crazily prohibitive.

Because Silverlight is a pre-existing technology renamed and allowed to be embedded in a browser.
Windows Presentation Foundation has been in development (AKA WinFX) for 5+ years.
And it's microsoft for crying out loud, they throw 500 programmers and something.
(And a little secret for you, Silverlight's not up to 50% of what flash can do.)
And if you knew anything, you would know Silverlight is aimed at Adobe AiR, not Flash.

Quote:
One more caveat that might make my original statement clearer (perhaps we don't disagree all that much)...when I say Torque is more complicated from an engineering perspective, I'm referring to the engine and not the toolset. The authoring tools for Flash are indeed more polished, and arguably more complex than Torque's current World Editor.

Or maybe we won't agree, because your engine could be the best in the world, but without a solid toolset, it's not worth the code editor you typed it on.

I don't think you really understand your own product.
TGEA 1.7.1/1.8 graphics are on par with most things out today.
But your tools lag.
Tools are what 90% of us care about.
It helps us get things done faster, get our games to market.

Let's go back to Unreal Engine 2.
UnrealED.

To do what UnrealED does for torque you need.

Torque Constuctor
Show Tool Pro (3rd Party)
Notepad or Torsion (3rd Party)
Terrain Editor and/or 3rd Party Tools to make Atlas Terrains


It doesn't even compare.


Unreal is like a stock Ferrari F50.
Torque is like a Honda with 900 horse power import motor. But the paints flaking off, and the tires are showing wires, the under belly is all rusted, and the interior is all cut it.
It has the potential to be the best, but you keep trying to squeeze out more horse power instead of putting new tires on it, new interior.

It took you 2 or 3 years to give TGEA OpenGL and DirectX Support.

Unreal Engine 2 has a fucking software renderer, opengl, directx 8 with fallbacks all the way to 6.

The rendering aspect is apples vs oranges. I'll give you that.
But the tool support, i'd pay $300,000 for that if I wasn't an indie.

(Pardon the typos, I typed this blind, thanks internet explorer 8 beta)
#214
01/10/2009 (10:56 pm)
@Randy: Appreciate the anecdote...it probably makes a lot of sense in most businesses to thing this way (volume can substitute for margin), but game development is a very niche business, and providing tools to game developers is ever more so. There are only so many developer "seats" out there...it's been estimated that the total may be as small as 250,000 worldwide. This sounds like a lot, but a huge percentage of these work at large studios that use proprietary or high-end licensed tools (AAA middleware). At the low end (think GameMaker / XNA / Flash), very few developers are willing to purchase tools / technology because it's a hobby and not an enterprise. So GG is somewhere in the middle of that...sometimes attractive to the hobbyists, and sometimes attractive to AAA developers.

The point is that volume can't really substitute for margin in a market this small. If we sold 100,000 licenses annually, well yes, we could probably keep prices very low very comfortably, but consider that it's taken 8 years for this community to grow to it's current size, and the majority of this community have not made the move to TGEA. GG probably runs greater license volume than any other game developement tool (Visual Studio might do more...art tools probably do a lot more if you count them), so expecting to grow in volume rather than increase margin is probably not a good strategy unless a whole lot more people out there decide they want to do game development.
#215
01/10/2009 (11:20 pm)
@Jeremy Easoz: Your 100% correct on the tools front. Is UnrealEd worth an extra $299,000 for Unreal2 though? Could any indie development studio ever afford that?

I've never owned a license for Unreal tech, I can't afford it. I did Unreal modding though in the early years. I ran one of the early modding sites for it at Gamesnet, and I created the first ever third party map for Unreal. UnrealEd is friggen awesome. I love it. But engine wise, how many things can Unreal do that Torque can't? I'm talking Unreal 3, the latest tech. Things that come to mind are better lighting and shadows, more efficient interior rendering. the ability to easily plug in some third party licenses such as SpeedTree which have pre-configured Unreal versions, DirectX 10 support, and integrated PhysX. All of those are cool features, and I'm sure there may be some other things I'm not thinking of at the moment. There have been demos like the Gears of Torque demo which shows that TGEA with good graphics people and coders can produce some pretty high visual work, with the added benefit of a nice terrain renderer to boot and a much lower price range. Is it Unreal quality? No. But even if they sold TGEA for $2000, that's still $498,000 cheaper than Unreal. Your average game isn't making much money for the developers, other than advances. Is the extra oomph worth the price difference? I don't think so personally, unless your basing your games success on having the best graphics on the market.

Now if your backed by EA or another big named publisher, you might not flinch at the licensing cost. If your an indie developer, or even if you have some funding but you'd like to churn some profit other than your upfront advance from the publisher, then that's a pretty steep price to pay.
#216
01/10/2009 (11:22 pm)
@JeremyE: You're able to argue your case with GG's VP of Business Development... right here for all to see. Try emailing Epic and seeing how far you get :) Woohoo!

Edit: typo
#217
01/10/2009 (11:26 pm)
@Jeremy:

Quote:I'm pretty sure that was a design decision not to support wii.
Not an "oops, we made our graphics technology so supperior, it doesn't run on wii".

Agreed...they decided not to support Wii because they didn't feel like investing in that feature. Rein said it was not important.

Quote:
I've used the unreal engine for mods and game development for a long time.
Everyone I have worked with has stated Unreal > Torque by leaps and bounds.
The toolset is worth the price of admission alone.

Heres a feature list incease you need reminding.
http://www.unrealtechnology.com/features.php?ref=past-versions

UE2 better than TGEA by leaps and bounds huh? Everyone you've worked with? I guess we've talked with different people. I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right, but I've talked with a LOT of unhappy UE2/3 licensees. Quite a few have moved to TGEA. It's a biased sample to be sure (no reason why happy UE licensees would be emailing me about Torque obviously), but their complaints certainly aren't unfounded. Lots of them complain about the quirky visual scripting systems (and being forced to use it). Anyway, it's not an argument worth going to mat over to me. The point is that TGEA is easily in that league for lots of commercial devs and could be licensed in that range if that were the market we targeted. Would we make some different design decisions? Of course. Would we add support staff? Yes, that would be required.

Quote:
You want to compare yourself to epic, then post Unreal Engine 2's game history versus TGEA.
No brainer.

Game history = engine capability huh? Seems silly. I almost want to say "just think about it a bit" but I'll explain why I think this is off-base. UE2 is obviously going to have a much richer, more high profile track record of games because it's the dominant engine in AAA, so when UE2 was current version, everyone in AAA wanted to use it. Comparing TGEA's game history with UE2 makes no sense...they stacked in the market in different places in different times. If game history equated engine capability, then you'd only fairly compare current-gen to current-gen offerings and obviously UE3 already has a rich history of shipping impressive titles. TGEA has been around nearly the same length of time, and has not shipped anything of the visual caliber of say "Gears of War 2." I

Quote:
The problem I have is you say, you are going after one market.
Yet you want to price it like another market.
Can't have your cake and eat it to.
Well maybe you can, but you might be eating alone.

I got lost on the cake analogy, but let's be clear about one thing...I'm NOT trying to price Torque 3D like a AAA engine. Sticker for that would start at 5 digits minimum. No one's talking about that range. In speaking about the value of Torque, I am comfortable comparing it with AAA engines. I'm not claiming it's technologically superior to Crytek or Unreal...it's not. But it's not exactly Little League either.


Quote:Adobe annoucned a flash player for iphone already.
Wii supports flash but not the latest version. Nintendo also has public javascript files to access the wii mote for would be web developers.

Right, I think I read the same news stories you did =) Flash works on the iPhone, but not to Apple's satisfaction. Nintendo supports use of SWFs in game? Or are you just talking about the browser?

Quote:

Because Silverlight is a pre-existing technology renamed and allowed to be embedded in a browser.
Windows Presentation Foundation has been in development (AKA WinFX) for 5+ years.
And it's microsoft for crying out loud, they throw 500 programmers and something.
(And a little secret for you, Silverlight's not up to 50% of what flash can do.)
And if you knew anything, you would know Silverlight is aimed at Adobe AiR, not Flash.

Oh snap =) I guess those MS Silverlight guys I talked to just a month ago had it wrong re: size of the team, capabilities, ambitions. My bad!

Quote:Or maybe we won't agree, because your engine could be the best in the world, but without a solid toolset, it's not worth the code editor you typed it on.

Appreciate your faith in the engine...I think the value you place on the toolset really depends on your skill set. There are lots of teams I talk to who want less tools, not more. For example, lots of guys in our own internal studio actually prefer to just just build levels in Max / Maya and use script to edit them once in Torque. It's a very different workflow, but depends on how comfortable you are with diffrent pieces.

Quote:Tools are what 90% of us care about.
It helps us get things done faster, get our games to market.

I'm listening to this part. I think this is in line with our thinking for Torque 3D.

Actually, I'm listening to all of it...I not taking any of this personally, I know you feel passionately about the tech and your perspective on tools over tech is helpful.
#218
01/10/2009 (11:47 pm)
Quote:
Right, I think I read the same news stories you did =) Flash works on the iPhone, but not to Apple's satisfaction. Nintendo supports use of SWFs in game? Or are you just talking about the browser?

Just the browser, but i'm sure nothing is stopping any developer from embedding it into a game.
TGE has a resource for it.

Quote:
Appreciate your faith in the engine...I think the value you place on the toolset really depends on your skill set. There are lots of teams I talk to who want less tools, not more. For example, lots of guys in our own internal studio actually prefer to just just build levels in Max / Maya and use script to edit them once in Torque. It's a very different workflow, but depends on how comfortable you are with diffrent pieces.

I wouldn't own most of GarageGames products if I didn't have faith.
Less tools works too.
But then you change your pricing model from...
T3D $$$

to...

T3D $$$ + 3D Studio Max $$$

or

T3D $$$ + Maya $$$

Real indies have to take this into account.

Quote:
I'm listening to this part. I think this is in line with our thinking for Torque 3D.

We'll that's the part most of us want to hear about.
all we have seen are pictures of rendering technology. :P

I'm not taking any of this personal either.
I make games to have fun.
I dig all the tech that you guys release.
#219
01/10/2009 (11:55 pm)
Is it just me.. or are people really arguing about examples given to explain a business move instead of taking the opportunity (which no other company would do..ever) to give realistic.. and realistic doesn't mean wishful thinking.. opinions on how the GG community could be like.

All of us.. myself included have complained about one thing or another.. wanting new features, better docs, bug fixes.. etc. Hell.. I think they should take Constructor and set aside 5 or 6 people on that alone and make it what it truly could be. In any case, all these things take time and manpower. We want a better engine. Well, so do they, and they are trying to gear GG into a position where they can improve their product while meeting the needs of a very much untapped market... while STILL trying to find a way to help those "dreamers" who have been in the community for a long time. No, I do not want to pay more.. but nothing they have said to this point is unreasonable.

Fact - The price for T3D is going up from what most here are use to.
Fact - GG can not financially continue to give their products away at such low prices and continue to function as a company.

..what else is there to say. At this point, I will continue to work on my many unfinished projects and wait for Brett, or someone else to clue us in when they are ready.
#220
01/11/2009 (12:10 am)
Quote:
Appreciate your faith in the engine...I think the value you place on the toolset really depends on your skill set. There are lots of teams I talk to who want less tools, not more. For example, lots of guys in our own internal studio actually prefer to just just build levels in Max / Maya and use script to edit them once in Torque. It's a very different workflow, but depends on how comfortable you are with diffrent pieces.
It also depends on the documentation you have, and the ability of the export tools to do the job. They also are probably not building all of their interiors in Max/Maya, unless they have other tools as well. I've always read on this site that DIF is best for interiors, and the last I checked Max2Dif was a broken piece of junk...someone's pipe dream from 5 or 6 years ago.

You also have to take into consideration that "internal studio" vs indies who have to contend with full-time jobs on the side. It's a lot easier for an internal team working full-time to prototype a game in a timely manner, when they use the tools day-in and day-out. For the two-man team that meets over the Internet and has to spend hours figuring out why their two-room mud hut exported with a hole in the roof, or why the upper right corner of their castle wall is transparent (due to poor tools/docs), the time-to-prototype is much longer. It makes sense to have tools that will speed up their workflow. That is also why a huge price increase should be contingent upon the creation of tools that will improve the content workflow.