OMG, what have I done *update*
by ArmedGeek · 01/08/2009 (5:15 pm) · 37 comments
For reasons unknown I stumbled across this blog post I made a couple of years ago. http://www.garagegames.com/blogs/41350/12434 . I figured I'd post a bit of an update.
I did eventually come up with a name for my game. Antares Sector. AS is a space-based game so essentially what I did was start with a list of stars until I found one with *star*-sector.com available.
Otherwise, things are progressing fairly well. I have probably 99% of a design doc done and about 99% of that I know exactly how to implement. I have a partner now and actual game code (not test code) is being written and artwork is being created.
It is not, however, being written with TGE/TGEA. GG just simply took to long to get a handle on TGEA and to make it cross-platform. Antares Sector uses C4 from Terathon. I do miss TorqueScript but looking at things now I have to say that TS is *all* that I miss.
Hrm, I *really* don't want this to turn into a bash of GG or a commercial for C4 so I'm just going to stop there.
I just reread the above blog post and thought I'd give a little update.
I did eventually come up with a name for my game. Antares Sector. AS is a space-based game so essentially what I did was start with a list of stars until I found one with *star*-sector.com available.
Otherwise, things are progressing fairly well. I have probably 99% of a design doc done and about 99% of that I know exactly how to implement. I have a partner now and actual game code (not test code) is being written and artwork is being created.
It is not, however, being written with TGE/TGEA. GG just simply took to long to get a handle on TGEA and to make it cross-platform. Antares Sector uses C4 from Terathon. I do miss TorqueScript but looking at things now I have to say that TS is *all* that I miss.
Hrm, I *really* don't want this to turn into a bash of GG or a commercial for C4 so I'm just going to stop there.
I just reread the above blog post and thought I'd give a little update.
About the author
#22
01/10/2009 (6:49 pm)
@ArmedGeek: I'd echo Alex's comments. Choose the tech that's the best fit for you on your time line. Nothing wrong with that not being Torque. If TGEA had been a sufficiently mature product at the time, we wouldn't have spend so much effort updating it to 1.8. 
#23
I commented on this... maybe I should have quoted it.
When you have well written software using a good object oriented design, you get clean code that is very easy to work with.
Torque is well written software using a bad object oriented design, and the result is code that is more difficult to use with high software entropy and Garage Games needs to go back and pay some technical debt instead of (or in addition to) continuing to add new features.
Why am I here?
I care about Indie game developers. I want more Indie game developers to succeed. Everyone would benefit if Torque had a better design with lower entropy.
I'm not saying it's the TGEA coders' fault... The fact that new code (GFX and SFX) looks good proves it is not and proves that they are fully capable of doing what is required. Hopefully they didn't think I was blaming them for the poor design because I'm not.
I completely understand the history of Torque and why it is where it is today. I'm not holding my breath that the GG management will allow time to be spent on technical debt for Torque3D, but maybe they will.... one can only hope.
I'm not selling my engine or advertising my engine here... I'm here because Torque is and will continue to be the predominant Indie game engine for years to come and I care about the fact that if GG does not improve the overall design of Torque, they are hindering the success of many Indie game developers.
01/11/2009 (5:44 am)
@Brett - My comments in no way were untruthful nor were they "mud slinging".Quote:No, what I traded was the hacked-up bug-ridden mess that is TGEA (pre-1.8) for some of the cleanest easiest to work with code I've ever seen.
I commented on this... maybe I should have quoted it.
When you have well written software using a good object oriented design, you get clean code that is very easy to work with.
Torque is well written software using a bad object oriented design, and the result is code that is more difficult to use with high software entropy and Garage Games needs to go back and pay some technical debt instead of (or in addition to) continuing to add new features.
Why am I here?
I care about Indie game developers. I want more Indie game developers to succeed. Everyone would benefit if Torque had a better design with lower entropy.
I'm not saying it's the TGEA coders' fault... The fact that new code (GFX and SFX) looks good proves it is not and proves that they are fully capable of doing what is required. Hopefully they didn't think I was blaming them for the poor design because I'm not.
I completely understand the history of Torque and why it is where it is today. I'm not holding my breath that the GG management will allow time to be spent on technical debt for Torque3D, but maybe they will.... one can only hope.
I'm not selling my engine or advertising my engine here... I'm here because Torque is and will continue to be the predominant Indie game engine for years to come and I care about the fact that if GG does not improve the overall design of Torque, they are hindering the success of many Indie game developers.
#24
So far all I have gotten is complaints about me saying things like this.... as far as I'm concerned it's a defect in Torque that needs to be fixed and I have as much right to say it as everyone else that's complaining about other bugs.
Fix it and I won't have the complaint to voice anymore.
01/11/2009 (6:41 am)
One last statement... if I would get a nod or an acknowledgment from a Torque coder or someone from the GG management staff indicating that they're aware of the problem, I'll shut up and stop complaining about it... at least until the next Torque 3D release.So far all I have gotten is complaints about me saying things like this.... as far as I'm concerned it's a defect in Torque that needs to be fixed and I have as much right to say it as everyone else that's complaining about other bugs.
Fix it and I won't have the complaint to voice anymore.
#25
I've also had the TGE code since version 1.2. It also was not bad. Yes all code could stand to be redesigned form time to time. There may be a few things that need re-factoring. But on the whole it works pretty darned well.
If you don't like the TGEA OO design then go write your own game engine. Or better yet, post your OO game design here. Post it as an image showing the class inheritance structure and why you think doing it your way would be better. I call it like I see it. If I though TGEA had problems, I'd be the first to say it. I bought the license, downloaded the code and I'm making modifications. I've read through the code, and I know what I'm talking about.
The TGEA code is pretty well designed and does not have a lot of serious bugs. The problems I have seen has been with DirectX (briefly... now fixed) and with a rapid development effort... which is about to be fixed.
I'm reading through the C4 documentation to see how they did things. I'm also pushing through all the edges... running beyond the terrain and seeing the graphics screw up. Lots of colors and lines. I pressed the Y key and rotated the character. I noticed that the gun does not mount correctly, and that it does not mount correctly in 3rd person view.
What is this guy holding?
This is not mud slinging its an honest appraisal. TGEA is better. And yes I think Armed geek is right. Torque script is pretty cool. C4 needs to integrate a scripting language like lua, and it needs dynamic lighting to be a contender.
That being said C4 is a great engine, and yes it has its share of short comings and bugs too.
01/11/2009 (5:13 pm)
@Tony, please. I've seen the TGEA code I have it. I've been reading through it for days. Its not bad. All code during development has bugs. TGEA 1.8.0 is hot off the press, Matt is planning on doing a final version in the near future.I've also had the TGE code since version 1.2. It also was not bad. Yes all code could stand to be redesigned form time to time. There may be a few things that need re-factoring. But on the whole it works pretty darned well.
If you don't like the TGEA OO design then go write your own game engine. Or better yet, post your OO game design here. Post it as an image showing the class inheritance structure and why you think doing it your way would be better. I call it like I see it. If I though TGEA had problems, I'd be the first to say it. I bought the license, downloaded the code and I'm making modifications. I've read through the code, and I know what I'm talking about.
The TGEA code is pretty well designed and does not have a lot of serious bugs. The problems I have seen has been with DirectX (briefly... now fixed) and with a rapid development effort... which is about to be fixed.
I'm reading through the C4 documentation to see how they did things. I'm also pushing through all the edges... running beyond the terrain and seeing the graphics screw up. Lots of colors and lines. I pressed the Y key and rotated the character. I noticed that the gun does not mount correctly, and that it does not mount correctly in 3rd person view.
What is this guy holding?This is not mud slinging its an honest appraisal. TGEA is better. And yes I think Armed geek is right. Torque script is pretty cool. C4 needs to integrate a scripting language like lua, and it needs dynamic lighting to be a contender.
That being said C4 is a great engine, and yes it has its share of short comings and bugs too.
#26
C4 Mac Demo not available
TGEA has the latest MAC openGL and Windows DirectX drivers working.
01/11/2009 (6:42 pm)
Last post from the C4 site ... not mud slinging... just a feature comparisonC4 Mac Demo not available
Quote:
Note: A new Mac demo has not been released to due some severe bugs in the Mac OS X OpenGL library. We are working with Apple to resolve these problems and will release a demo as soon as possible.
TGEA has the latest MAC openGL and Windows DirectX drivers working.
#27
01/11/2009 (6:46 pm)
I've had Torque since August 2001... version 1.0.... if you think the design is ok then obviously you have lower standards than I do.
#28
I thought it was ok too, until I saw a good one.
heh. You mention the delay in getting the Mac demo of C4 1.5 released. C4 has always had a Mac version, it isn't new. C4 1.5 was release just a couple of weeks ago and it was a rather large update. How long did you wait for TGEA to have a Mac version ?
no. it really isn't. The gun mounting "issue" you refer to is not part of the engine. It is part of the demo. TGE was a FPS engine. TGEA is also an FPS engine. Sure it can be adapted for other types of games, but if you look at the code, it is obviously an FPS engine. C4 isn't. C4 is a game engine. Genre-specific crap is not in the engine.
I have the advantage of having seen both TGEA *and* C4 source code. Believe me, there is no comparison.
01/11/2009 (8:32 pm)
Quote:I've had Torque since August 2001... version 1.0.... if you think the design is ok then obviously you have lower standards than I do.
I thought it was ok too, until I saw a good one.
Quote:... not mud slinging... just a feature comparison
heh. You mention the delay in getting the Mac demo of C4 1.5 released. C4 has always had a Mac version, it isn't new. C4 1.5 was release just a couple of weeks ago and it was a rather large update. How long did you wait for TGEA to have a Mac version ?
Quote:TGEA is better.
no. it really isn't. The gun mounting "issue" you refer to is not part of the engine. It is part of the demo. TGE was a FPS engine. TGEA is also an FPS engine. Sure it can be adapted for other types of games, but if you look at the code, it is obviously an FPS engine. C4 isn't. C4 is a game engine. Genre-specific crap is not in the engine.
I have the advantage of having seen both TGEA *and* C4 source code. Believe me, there is no comparison.
#29
TGEA is a game engine that also includes code for building FPS games, and the initial script setup is for an FPS game. Don't use the Player class, and start with a simpler set of scripts, and it's a genre-agnostic game engine. Most of the games made with TGE/TGEA are not FPS games. An FPS game is just where it got it's roots, so of course it's going to have some code included to help facilitate that type of game.
01/11/2009 (8:50 pm)
I'd think that mounting nodes so that changes to one affects the other in a predictable way is an expected 3D game engine feature, not an FPS feature.TGEA is a game engine that also includes code for building FPS games, and the initial script setup is for an FPS game. Don't use the Player class, and start with a simpler set of scripts, and it's a genre-agnostic game engine. Most of the games made with TGE/TGEA are not FPS games. An FPS game is just where it got it's roots, so of course it's going to have some code included to help facilitate that type of game.
#31
In all seriousness, best of luck with Antares Sector. I've added your development blog to my RSS reader, so post updates and such. And despite this less than positive blogging experience, I hope you consider posting major milestones here. Everyone loves to see progress made on a game.
01/11/2009 (10:16 pm)
StandardResponse #6. Hrm, yes, that is much less typing. We should have a page with standard responses and simply post links to the appropriate one. I'll talk with the web guys about this.In all seriousness, best of luck with Antares Sector. I've added your development blog to my RSS reader, so post updates and such. And despite this less than positive blogging experience, I hope you consider posting major milestones here. Everyone loves to see progress made on a game.
#33
We're totally aware of the TGE/TGEA/Torque 3D design... the HUGE investment GG and our community has in the code/pipeline/content packs/resources/documentation of the current development environment. We're also aware of how things can be better for future generations of our technology.
01/12/2009 (7:04 am)
I have yet to meet a GG engineer or manager that thinks TGE/A is perfection incarnate. Though, indie studios are shipping games on multiple platforms with it... and have been for years. In so many months, 3 TGE/A games were launched by indie studios on Steam... and we beat some serious competition for a Frontline Award. This is besides all the updates coming down the pipe... There's a huge push to be me more communicative with the community.We're totally aware of the TGE/TGEA/Torque 3D design... the HUGE investment GG and our community has in the code/pipeline/content packs/resources/documentation of the current development environment. We're also aware of how things can be better for future generations of our technology.
#34
Torque is well implemented, stable and popular and I've never disagreed with that. There are certain aspects of the design that I think should be improved so as to provide more flexibility and reduce entropy. (This high entropy and lack of flexibility is what I claim hinders innovation, but you probably wouldn't see that either.)
What I read out of what you said is that you're aware of the problem (or you're just being nice to me so I'll go away) but you aren't going to fix it because of backwards compatibility and because the problem areas aren't prevent people from making games with Torque....
Probably that is a good call as it's less risky, but I figured I'd give it one more shot since you're now working on your third generation engine.
I had high hopes that you might approach this a different way, but I guess not... thanks for replying and I'll stop complaining as I promised.
Good luck with Torque 3D.
01/12/2009 (10:00 am)
Software quality is relative and I never said anything about perfection.Torque is well implemented, stable and popular and I've never disagreed with that. There are certain aspects of the design that I think should be improved so as to provide more flexibility and reduce entropy. (This high entropy and lack of flexibility is what I claim hinders innovation, but you probably wouldn't see that either.)
What I read out of what you said is that you're aware of the problem (or you're just being nice to me so I'll go away) but you aren't going to fix it because of backwards compatibility and because the problem areas aren't prevent people from making games with Torque....
Probably that is a good call as it's less risky, but I figured I'd give it one more shot since you're now working on your third generation engine.
I had high hopes that you might approach this a different way, but I guess not... thanks for replying and I'll stop complaining as I promised.
Good luck with Torque 3D.
#35
Why would I want to discuss anything with someone who talked to me this way. Why would anyone?
/me goes back to working on Torque 3D's Web Deployment
01/12/2009 (10:44 am)
Quote:but you probably wouldn't see that either
Why would I want to discuss anything with someone who talked to me this way. Why would anyone?
/me goes back to working on Torque 3D's Web Deployment
#36
Your informations are simply wrong. C4 has dynamic lighting since 2002. The latest mac demo is not available because of a very big upgrade (Terrain, shader editor and more). And these new features need some more optimization on Mac.
Judging the artwork of the soldier is not a good approach to judge a technology.
I dont want to attend a fight here, just want to make corrections to a mainly wrong post.
01/15/2009 (11:36 pm)
Britton LaRoche wrote "C4 needs to integrate a scripting language like lua, and it needs dynamic lighting to be a contender. "Your informations are simply wrong. C4 has dynamic lighting since 2002. The latest mac demo is not available because of a very big upgrade (Terrain, shader editor and more). And these new features need some more optimization on Mac.
Judging the artwork of the soldier is not a good approach to judge a technology.
I dont want to attend a fight here, just want to make corrections to a mainly wrong post.
#37
I got fed up with it when I realized just how much of an outdated mess it is. There is no good way to make maps. Constructor is unstable and interior size is extremely limited -- get close enough to the brush limit and graphical glitches will start giving you a headache. Torque's lighting is just bad, but it seems horrible when compared to C4's fully dynamic system. The world editor is just a pain; it's imprecise and unnecessarily difficult to use.
Speaking purely from an artist's point of view, working with C4 is a joy in every sense. There's a unified world editor that's extremely flexible, voxel terrain editing that will support much larger-scale terrains very soon, a graphical shader editor, a graphical script editor, and a very flexible material editor. It now easily supports both outdoor and indoor environments, and large ones at that.
GarageGames keeps tacking on new features instead of adressing core issues that ruin the engine. I hope that'll change soon, but it's not looking that way.
01/18/2009 (8:13 pm)
Gave up Torque for C4. Much like ArmedGeek I only miss TorqueScript.I got fed up with it when I realized just how much of an outdated mess it is. There is no good way to make maps. Constructor is unstable and interior size is extremely limited -- get close enough to the brush limit and graphical glitches will start giving you a headache. Torque's lighting is just bad, but it seems horrible when compared to C4's fully dynamic system. The world editor is just a pain; it's imprecise and unnecessarily difficult to use.
Speaking purely from an artist's point of view, working with C4 is a joy in every sense. There's a unified world editor that's extremely flexible, voxel terrain editing that will support much larger-scale terrains very soon, a graphical shader editor, a graphical script editor, and a very flexible material editor. It now easily supports both outdoor and indoor environments, and large ones at that.
GarageGames keeps tacking on new features instead of adressing core issues that ruin the engine. I hope that'll change soon, but it's not looking that way.
Torque 3D Owner Brett Seyler
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