OMG, what have I done *update*
by ArmedGeek · 01/08/2009 (5:15 pm) · 37 comments
For reasons unknown I stumbled across this blog post I made a couple of years ago. http://www.garagegames.com/blogs/41350/12434 . I figured I'd post a bit of an update.
I did eventually come up with a name for my game. Antares Sector. AS is a space-based game so essentially what I did was start with a list of stars until I found one with *star*-sector.com available.
Otherwise, things are progressing fairly well. I have probably 99% of a design doc done and about 99% of that I know exactly how to implement. I have a partner now and actual game code (not test code) is being written and artwork is being created.
It is not, however, being written with TGE/TGEA. GG just simply took to long to get a handle on TGEA and to make it cross-platform. Antares Sector uses C4 from Terathon. I do miss TorqueScript but looking at things now I have to say that TS is *all* that I miss.
Hrm, I *really* don't want this to turn into a bash of GG or a commercial for C4 so I'm just going to stop there.
I just reread the above blog post and thought I'd give a little update.
I did eventually come up with a name for my game. Antares Sector. AS is a space-based game so essentially what I did was start with a list of stars until I found one with *star*-sector.com available.
Otherwise, things are progressing fairly well. I have probably 99% of a design doc done and about 99% of that I know exactly how to implement. I have a partner now and actual game code (not test code) is being written and artwork is being created.
It is not, however, being written with TGE/TGEA. GG just simply took to long to get a handle on TGEA and to make it cross-platform. Antares Sector uses C4 from Terathon. I do miss TorqueScript but looking at things now I have to say that TS is *all* that I miss.
Hrm, I *really* don't want this to turn into a bash of GG or a commercial for C4 so I'm just going to stop there.
I just reread the above blog post and thought I'd give a little update.
About the author
#2
but....
I did not see AI support in the demo. AI is not easy and the fact they dont have it in the single player mode tells me it does not exist.
The documentation section on the website was weak. They did not list the commercial price (if you don't see it you cant afford it) also don't trust anyone that "say's contact us for a quote," on the website. That only means on thing... a sleazy sales guy on the other end with no fixed price.
The community, aside from the forums does not exist. They only had a handful of content packs. Just my opinion. I think you traded early access to cross platform shader support for all the features that will help you finish a video game.
I'd need to spend more time with the game engine to get a real good comparison between Torque and C4. But my first intro tells me they have a long way to go to catch up with TGEA.
01/08/2009 (10:59 pm)
Well the demo was not bad. The game looks good, the directory structure is good and clean. I could not figure out how to view the frames per second. Its a good game engine and a contender for the indie market.but....
I did not see AI support in the demo. AI is not easy and the fact they dont have it in the single player mode tells me it does not exist.
The documentation section on the website was weak. They did not list the commercial price (if you don't see it you cant afford it) also don't trust anyone that "say's contact us for a quote," on the website. That only means on thing... a sleazy sales guy on the other end with no fixed price.
The community, aside from the forums does not exist. They only had a handful of content packs. Just my opinion. I think you traded early access to cross platform shader support for all the features that will help you finish a video game.
I'd need to spend more time with the game engine to get a real good comparison between Torque and C4. But my first intro tells me they have a long way to go to catch up with TGEA.
#3
No, what I traded was the hacked-up bug-ridden mess that is TGEA (pre-1.8) for some of the cleanest easiest to work with code I've ever seen.
As I said, my intention was not to start a fight over C4 vs TGEA but I suppose I should have expected such a response. Folks around here have always been a bit touchy about such things.
01/08/2009 (11:41 pm)
@Britton:No, what I traded was the hacked-up bug-ridden mess that is TGEA (pre-1.8) for some of the cleanest easiest to work with code I've ever seen.
As I said, my intention was not to start a fight over C4 vs TGEA but I suppose I should have expected such a response. Folks around here have always been a bit touchy about such things.
#4
In the meantime feel free to contact me at alexsc[at]garagegames[dot]com if there are any specific improvements that could be made to TGEA that would make it more suitable for your use. You may also want to take a look at Brett's series of blogs discussing development of the next version of Torque.
@Britton:
01/09/2009 (1:13 am)
Use the tool that fits the job. I'm glad you found an engine that suits your needs. Hopefully next time you consider engines for a game our offerings will better match what you need.In the meantime feel free to contact me at alexsc[at]garagegames[dot]com if there are any specific improvements that could be made to TGEA that would make it more suitable for your use. You may also want to take a look at Brett's series of blogs discussing development of the next version of Torque.
@Britton:
Quote:They did not list the commercial price (if you don't see it you cant afford it) also don't trust anyone that "say's contact us for a quote," on the website. That only means on thing... a sleazy sales guy on the other end with no fixed price.It is very common in the game engine industry to not publicly disclose the price of your product. Source, Unreal Engine 3, idTech 5, Gamebryo, CryEngine 2 and many more all require that you have an NDA before pricing will be discussed. Heck, we don't publicly disclose the price for Torque360 or TorqueWii. I'm not at all surprised that C4 has licensing options without a publicly disclosed price, and I certainly wouldn't describe it as "sleazy".
#5
I know a lot was done to TGEA 1.8 but I've not looked at it. I left TGE(A) for C4 when an opengl gfx layer was looking like it wasn't going to happen. At this point, way too much work has already been done to back up and use TGEA.
That said, I'd certainly look at it again in the future.
btw: good job getting opengl into TGEA, it couldn't have been easy
01/09/2009 (1:32 am)
@Alex:I know a lot was done to TGEA 1.8 but I've not looked at it. I left TGE(A) for C4 when an opengl gfx layer was looking like it wasn't going to happen. At this point, way too much work has already been done to back up and use TGEA.
That said, I'd certainly look at it again in the future.
btw: good job getting opengl into TGEA, it couldn't have been easy
#6
01/09/2009 (4:29 am)
Quote:Outer space seems to be smaller than I thought. I'm working on a game (TGB space shooter) called Antares for almost 1 year now (about 75% done). Good luck with your project & see you up there :)
I did eventually come up with a name for my game. Antares Sector.
#7
@Britton
The licensing model is far from sleazy and makes a lot of sense. The upper tiers of the model include console licensing and the large-scale simulation sector, each of which often have to have specific NDA's and legal agreements drafted for thousands of dollars...before the agreement is even settled upon for use. Seems fairly standard practice, and I definitely support Eric's variable licensing options. Nothing about Terathon has been shifty or sleazy in my experience.
01/09/2009 (8:41 am)
Good luck with your project. I've been following C4 for quite some time and licensed it at the beginning of 2006 and try to follow the community and projects that are coming from it. As Alex said, I'm glad you found your match and hope to see your project make it out of the gate now that you've found the match.@Britton
The licensing model is far from sleazy and makes a lot of sense. The upper tiers of the model include console licensing and the large-scale simulation sector, each of which often have to have specific NDA's and legal agreements drafted for thousands of dollars...before the agreement is even settled upon for use. Seems fairly standard practice, and I definitely support Eric's variable licensing options. Nothing about Terathon has been shifty or sleazy in my experience.
#8
Thats the same way other industries work too when the price for their software is over a half million dollars. This pricing model is designed to make them rich. You charge an indie $250, you charge a big company $500,000. Some would say, Its not "sleazy"... its business. Its the same business model a used car dealer would use.
Its the way all business models start... a thosand years ago you'd haggle over the price of bread. Some people like this. I don't. I think its dishonest. If you want to charge a half million then post the price. That way I wont waste any time considering using that game engine.
A lot of mod developers lost their life savings making a game assuming they could afford the engine license. The last thing they did was get a quote. Thomas Buscaglia Sr. can testify to that.
Not posting the price hurts people. Real people. People I've met.
My biggest fear is that GG would lose what made it special. Honesty.... and being the good guys. I hope you do post the price eventually. The trade off is market share. The original idea proposed by Jeff Tunnel was that torque would be something like photoshop. A per seat price.
Its a simple, honest straight forward strategy. I like it. Its what brought me to Garage Games. More than anything I was attracted to the business model.
If GG loses that model, then GG has lost its way.
Okay I'll call it was it is. Undisclosed, unkown and hidden. I don't do business with people who hide things from me. I don't trust what I don't know. I did call the various game companies, and I did spend time to get the price on many a game engine. I suffered from sticker shock. I'm pretty sure when a price is not posted, its because they want to make a deal. The best deal for them.
The GG business model of price per seat will get big companies using your game engine and technology, it will make torque the defacto standard. Change the model, and you are no different from the rest of the other guys.
c4 is smart and has copied the GG indie startegy. They are now a serious competitor. Mark my words. The affordable engine price for the big comercial guys makes the GG busines model better than c4. Change that model, where you have to call GG for a price and c4 is now a real competitor.
The fact is you get back what you put in. Your business model is critical to your success. The reason I chose GG is that although I'm an inide... in my dreams I will make it big. One day I'll have more than a quarter million in revenue and I don't want to pay a half million for torque. I want to make my game and port it to all the platforms for a reasonable price. I'd say under $2000.00 per seat... like photo shop.
01/09/2009 (8:47 am)
Alex,Quote:
It is very common in the game engine industry to not publicly disclose the price of your product. Source, Unreal Engine 3, idTech 5, Gamebryo, CryEngine 2 and many more all require that you have an NDA before pricing will be discussed.
Thats the same way other industries work too when the price for their software is over a half million dollars. This pricing model is designed to make them rich. You charge an indie $250, you charge a big company $500,000. Some would say, Its not "sleazy"... its business. Its the same business model a used car dealer would use.
Its the way all business models start... a thosand years ago you'd haggle over the price of bread. Some people like this. I don't. I think its dishonest. If you want to charge a half million then post the price. That way I wont waste any time considering using that game engine.
A lot of mod developers lost their life savings making a game assuming they could afford the engine license. The last thing they did was get a quote. Thomas Buscaglia Sr. can testify to that.
Not posting the price hurts people. Real people. People I've met.
Quote:
Heck, we don't publicly disclose the price for Torque360 or TorqueWii.
My biggest fear is that GG would lose what made it special. Honesty.... and being the good guys. I hope you do post the price eventually. The trade off is market share. The original idea proposed by Jeff Tunnel was that torque would be something like photoshop. A per seat price.
Its a simple, honest straight forward strategy. I like it. Its what brought me to Garage Games. More than anything I was attracted to the business model.
If GG loses that model, then GG has lost its way.
Quote:
I'm not at all surprised that C4 has licensing options without a publicly disclosed price, and I certainly wouldn't describe it as "sleazy".
Okay I'll call it was it is. Undisclosed, unkown and hidden. I don't do business with people who hide things from me. I don't trust what I don't know. I did call the various game companies, and I did spend time to get the price on many a game engine. I suffered from sticker shock. I'm pretty sure when a price is not posted, its because they want to make a deal. The best deal for them.
The GG business model of price per seat will get big companies using your game engine and technology, it will make torque the defacto standard. Change the model, and you are no different from the rest of the other guys.
c4 is smart and has copied the GG indie startegy. They are now a serious competitor. Mark my words. The affordable engine price for the big comercial guys makes the GG busines model better than c4. Change that model, where you have to call GG for a price and c4 is now a real competitor.
The fact is you get back what you put in. Your business model is critical to your success. The reason I chose GG is that although I'm an inide... in my dreams I will make it big. One day I'll have more than a quarter million in revenue and I don't want to pay a half million for torque. I want to make my game and port it to all the platforms for a reasonable price. I'd say under $2000.00 per seat... like photo shop.
#9
1. Does the C4 engine use opengl exclusively? Does it support directX? I hate directX because Microsoft never sets or follows standards. Its a guarantee that TGEA 1.8.0 will stop working at some point in the future, because it has no openGL support for windows, and Microsoft will change the way direct X works. The November 2008 direct X release broke the 1.8 beta. What this means to me as a developer is that until T3D supports openGL (in windows)... I have to worry about upgrading my engine, and that impacts my development schedule.
My hope is the openGL support for windows will be added back into T3D.
2. Does C4 have any predefined AI hooks? Does it have AI support at all? Are there any resources you can use on the C4 site?
3. Sorry, for my first response. I do so love torque and the GG business model. I also love the indie developer. Best wishes on your game!
01/09/2009 (9:19 am)
@ArmedGeek,1. Does the C4 engine use opengl exclusively? Does it support directX? I hate directX because Microsoft never sets or follows standards. Its a guarantee that TGEA 1.8.0 will stop working at some point in the future, because it has no openGL support for windows, and Microsoft will change the way direct X works. The November 2008 direct X release broke the 1.8 beta. What this means to me as a developer is that until T3D supports openGL (in windows)... I have to worry about upgrading my engine, and that impacts my development schedule.
My hope is the openGL support for windows will be added back into T3D.
2. Does C4 have any predefined AI hooks? Does it have AI support at all? Are there any resources you can use on the C4 site?
3. Sorry, for my first response. I do so love torque and the GG business model. I also love the indie developer. Best wishes on your game!
#10
If you're a programmer and your complaint has primarily been about GG's poor software design then don't bother with TGEA 1.8 as it still has exactly the same problem... and in some cases it's worse.
Bad software design, high software entropy and a whole lot of technical debt.
I'm glad you saw the light.... it took me six years before I realized how much the bad software design was getting in my way.
It wasn't until I participated in Richard Bartle's "Slaughtering Sacred Cows" round table that I finally realized the problem... I was being too much of a Virgo and I couldn't see the floorplan because of how cluttered the house was.
The clutter had to go, but since Torque wasn't something that I could redistribute after I cleaned it up then I decided it was time to strike out on my own and build my own house.
You really miss it? Comparing it to other languages such as the latest ECMA script, Lua, Ruby, Python, etc, I found Torque Scripting to be lacking several key features.
Anyway... good luck with your endeavors!
01/09/2009 (10:29 am)
Note and disclaimer: I am a professional software engineer accustomed to modern object oriented software design principals and agile software development practices. My opinions about Torque are purely based on a computer science background and does not mean that I feel that Torque is an incapable engine, but...If you're a programmer and your complaint has primarily been about GG's poor software design then don't bother with TGEA 1.8 as it still has exactly the same problem... and in some cases it's worse.
Bad software design, high software entropy and a whole lot of technical debt.
I'm glad you saw the light.... it took me six years before I realized how much the bad software design was getting in my way.
It wasn't until I participated in Richard Bartle's "Slaughtering Sacred Cows" round table that I finally realized the problem... I was being too much of a Virgo and I couldn't see the floorplan because of how cluttered the house was.
The clutter had to go, but since Torque wasn't something that I could redistribute after I cleaned it up then I decided it was time to strike out on my own and build my own house.
Quote:TS is *all* that I miss.
You really miss it? Comparing it to other languages such as the latest ECMA script, Lua, Ruby, Python, etc, I found Torque Scripting to be lacking several key features.
Anyway... good luck with your endeavors!
#11
01/09/2009 (12:53 pm)
I had such high hopes of this not turning into a mud slinging contest.
#12
Speaks volumes that its all I miss, doesn't it.
Believe me, so did I.
01/09/2009 (1:01 pm)
Quote: Quote:
TS is *all* that I miss.
You really miss it? Comparing it to other languages such as the latest ECMA script, Lua, Ruby, Python, etc, I found Torque Scripting to be lacking several key features.
Speaks volumes that its all I miss, doesn't it.
Quote:I had such high hopes of this not turning into a mud slinging contest.
Believe me, so did I.
#13
None the less, C4 is very nice. What I dont like about C4 has nothing to do with the technology. I think its fine. I stand by what I said about the licensing structure. I don't like it.
01/09/2009 (2:48 pm)
@ArmedGeek, Its not a mud slinging contest. I have a lot of time invested with torque and GG. I believe in the community and the vision here. I'm not switching anytime soon.None the less, C4 is very nice. What I dont like about C4 has nothing to do with the technology. I think its fine. I stand by what I said about the licensing structure. I don't like it.
#14
01/09/2009 (2:51 pm)
Actually, I like the indie license. The indie license is great. Its the way they handle the commercial license I don't like. Say what you will... posting a price, no matter what price, is the right thing to do.
#15
I like TGEA...I like C4...I like Neoaxis...I like the Blender3d game engine as well. All respectively for specific reasons. I license 7 game engines...and I am currently using TGEA and TGB. That is just my opinion though..and I don't think any of the engines should be "trashed" or "looked down upon"(not that anyone here is focused on doing that specifically, it is more of a casual-chat-share of the scenario.) They all fill a niche and if the corresponding game-engine niche isn't where you want to be, then I hope you find the one you want. ;)
- For now, TGEA is the winner for my dev-time. Thank you GG and I am looking forward to seeing T3D.
01/09/2009 (3:17 pm)
About C4: ..I wish I bought a license when David Blake did..$100 in 2006, was it ?I like TGEA...I like C4...I like Neoaxis...I like the Blender3d game engine as well. All respectively for specific reasons. I license 7 game engines...and I am currently using TGEA and TGB. That is just my opinion though..and I don't think any of the engines should be "trashed" or "looked down upon"(not that anyone here is focused on doing that specifically, it is more of a casual-chat-share of the scenario.) They all fill a niche and if the corresponding game-engine niche isn't where you want to be, then I hope you find the one you want. ;)
- For now, TGEA is the winner for my dev-time. Thank you GG and I am looking forward to seeing T3D.
#16
So I played the palyed the C4 grave yard demo and it answered one of my questions. Yes C4 does have AI. What I don't understand is why you miss torque script.
It looks like C4 has its own visual scripting interface that is fairly sophisticated.
Poker game with only c4 scipt
C4 Script wiki
I read your game blog, but I cant figure out why you need TS script. Whats TS got that C4 does not for your game?
01/09/2009 (4:21 pm)
@ArmedGeek,So I played the palyed the C4 grave yard demo and it answered one of my questions. Yes C4 does have AI. What I don't understand is why you miss torque script.
It looks like C4 has its own visual scripting interface that is fairly sophisticated.
Poker game with only c4 scipt
C4 Script wiki
I read your game blog, but I cant figure out why you need TS script. Whats TS got that C4 does not for your game?
#17
I don't see anything wrong with wanting to negotiate a price for a higher-end license. That's how people have done business for thousands of years, with the exception of modern retail stores, where a fixed price is primarily a manner of business convenience so they can pay a clerk a low wage and not give them the responsibility of deciding on a price.
01/09/2009 (6:39 pm)
I still like TGEA over C4 from a technology standpoint, but I actually like C4s licensing model better, to be honest. The professional license only applies if you have an ESA or ELSPA publisher, or plan on publishing to a console, it's not dependent on how much money your company makes, and the Industrial license only applies if you're selling products for over $100, which few games will be. Also the licenses specifically state that you get all updates forever, as opposed to the GG model where they will want you to pay more money after so many updates.I don't see anything wrong with wanting to negotiate a price for a higher-end license. That's how people have done business for thousands of years, with the exception of modern retail stores, where a fixed price is primarily a manner of business convenience so they can pay a clerk a low wage and not give them the responsibility of deciding on a price.
#18
I was not suggesting that anyone change, just stating that I did.
Re: Scripting; Yes, C4's visual scripting kicks ass but I'm a programmer. There's just a part of me that want's a text file. I wasn't suggesting that C4 needs TorqueScript, just that TS was the only part of TGE(A) that I miss. And even then, not necessarily just TS, but a fully integrated scripting language. Sure, I could integrate one of the thousands of scripting languages out there into C4 and I might.
@All:
I really didn't mean to start a C4 vs Torque thing here. This post was simply a progress update. I've gotten to the point of writing actual game code (not test code, or practice) and was a little excited about it and wanted to tell everyone.
01/09/2009 (10:01 pm)
@BrittonI was not suggesting that anyone change, just stating that I did.
Re: Scripting; Yes, C4's visual scripting kicks ass but I'm a programmer. There's just a part of me that want's a text file. I wasn't suggesting that C4 needs TorqueScript, just that TS was the only part of TGE(A) that I miss. And even then, not necessarily just TS, but a fully integrated scripting language. Sure, I could integrate one of the thousands of scripting languages out there into C4 and I might.
@All:
I really didn't mean to start a C4 vs Torque thing here. This post was simply a progress update. I've gotten to the point of writing actual game code (not test code, or practice) and was a little excited about it and wanted to tell everyone.
#19
I was never confused on your intent. I knew you weren't slinging mud.
01/09/2009 (10:40 pm)
@ArmedGeekI was never confused on your intent. I knew you weren't slinging mud.
#20
01/10/2009 (6:45 pm)
@Tony: I'm trying to figure out why you hang around here. You don't really seem to having anything positive to offer GG or Torque developers. Most of the time I read your posts and I'm just confused trying to figure out your motivation. It looks to me like you come in now and then to snipe at Torque and try to draw people over to Indiezen(?). Not really a cool thing to do. If you've got a good product and a good message, people will come to you. Throwing mud @ GG.com while offering no solutions to Torque developers is lame. Please find a way to contribute to what people are doing here.
Torque Owner Britton LaRoche