The iPhone Playing Field
by Jeremy Alessi · 10/20/2008 (10:51 am) · 38 comments
A week ago I was almost positive that I'd be purchasing iTGB. There was one nagging gut feeling though that I just couldn't shake. It was a feeling of uncertainty. Before pulling out my credit card I analyzed my feelings and came away with a few concrete points against iTGB.
-Price
$500 + $100 per title is really just way too expensive for what is really the ultimate indie platform and one that is nearly saturated already with software. Most games in the app store are dropping in price and it looks like the 99 cent mark that has worked so well for music is going to rule the game world as well. Even excellent 3D titles from the likes of Pangea are hovering around the 99 cent mark. So, at a bare minimum you'll need to sell 500 copies of a game just to break even for your purchase of iTGB, not even accounting for your iPhone license. In a quickly saturating market that's a lot of software to move. Furthermore, part of my gut told me that the price wouldn't last and I knew I'd be really peeved to pay $500 for something that would soon drop.
-Speed
From what I gather iTGB is slow. Too slow to use the engine as it was originally designed to be used. So when I thought about porting my game to the iPhone I realized that it's not going to be a simple resolution adjustment and some input changes. No, it's going to be moving the whole game into C++.
-Competition
Now I knew Unity had iPhone support but I also knew it was fairly expensive to get the most out of Unity. Furthermore I had already written my game in TGB and Unity being Mac only was a huge minus for my development preferences. My Mac Mini struggles, what can I say.
I was of course pleased to stumble upon a forum post around the Internets that spoke of a new solution called ShiVa by Stonetrip. I decided to follow my gut instinct and not purchase iTGB and give myself at least a week to see if I could prototype my game with this new tool. I came away from that week succesful.
Now what are the benefits of ShiVa?
-2D/3D
It's full 3D, if I want to do 2D or 3D I can and don't need to purchase two separate licenses as I would with iTorque.
-Platforms
That's right iPhone is just one more platform along with Windows, Mac, Linux, and Wii that ShiVa supports including a web deployment option. You can develop on Windows.
-Price
Oh, did I mention that iPhone deployment is completely free with the license which is only about $230 at the current exchange rate?
-Power
LUA scripting, full physics support, editors for everything under the sun, shaders, etc ... It's a beast for the money.
-Support
When you ask questions or highlight flaws these guys don't whine. They acknowledge your comments and respond quickly with solutions or a note to let you know it's going in the next build. Their attitude is A1 professional and they are hungry to be the game engine of choice.
-Problems
As with any engine ShiVa's not perfect. However, if this were the presidential race iTGB would be John McCain trailing in the polls. Thus the baggage ShiVa has pales in comparison to what iTGB is carrying.
This is my bid for a cheaper iTGB. Give us unlimited use for $100 Garage Games and you've got my vote. Short of that and I'll be supporting ShiVa. In addition as many already know I'm a very vocal supporter of the tools I use which is something to keep in mind.
Thanks for reading. May the best engine win!
-Price
$500 + $100 per title is really just way too expensive for what is really the ultimate indie platform and one that is nearly saturated already with software. Most games in the app store are dropping in price and it looks like the 99 cent mark that has worked so well for music is going to rule the game world as well. Even excellent 3D titles from the likes of Pangea are hovering around the 99 cent mark. So, at a bare minimum you'll need to sell 500 copies of a game just to break even for your purchase of iTGB, not even accounting for your iPhone license. In a quickly saturating market that's a lot of software to move. Furthermore, part of my gut told me that the price wouldn't last and I knew I'd be really peeved to pay $500 for something that would soon drop.
-Speed
From what I gather iTGB is slow. Too slow to use the engine as it was originally designed to be used. So when I thought about porting my game to the iPhone I realized that it's not going to be a simple resolution adjustment and some input changes. No, it's going to be moving the whole game into C++.
-Competition
Now I knew Unity had iPhone support but I also knew it was fairly expensive to get the most out of Unity. Furthermore I had already written my game in TGB and Unity being Mac only was a huge minus for my development preferences. My Mac Mini struggles, what can I say.
I was of course pleased to stumble upon a forum post around the Internets that spoke of a new solution called ShiVa by Stonetrip. I decided to follow my gut instinct and not purchase iTGB and give myself at least a week to see if I could prototype my game with this new tool. I came away from that week succesful.
Now what are the benefits of ShiVa?
-2D/3D
It's full 3D, if I want to do 2D or 3D I can and don't need to purchase two separate licenses as I would with iTorque.
-Platforms
That's right iPhone is just one more platform along with Windows, Mac, Linux, and Wii that ShiVa supports including a web deployment option. You can develop on Windows.
-Price
Oh, did I mention that iPhone deployment is completely free with the license which is only about $230 at the current exchange rate?
-Power
LUA scripting, full physics support, editors for everything under the sun, shaders, etc ... It's a beast for the money.
-Support
When you ask questions or highlight flaws these guys don't whine. They acknowledge your comments and respond quickly with solutions or a note to let you know it's going in the next build. Their attitude is A1 professional and they are hungry to be the game engine of choice.
-Problems
As with any engine ShiVa's not perfect. However, if this were the presidential race iTGB would be John McCain trailing in the polls. Thus the baggage ShiVa has pales in comparison to what iTGB is carrying.
This is my bid for a cheaper iTGB. Give us unlimited use for $100 Garage Games and you've got my vote. Short of that and I'll be supporting ShiVa. In addition as many already know I'm a very vocal supporter of the tools I use which is something to keep in mind.
Thanks for reading. May the best engine win!
About the author
#2
ShiVa looks inexpensive on the surface, but if you want to create a networked game it looks like you have to purchase their server software, which is around $482 for the cheap version.
After being asked about my Virtools comment I realized it probably only made since to those who have had experience with Virtools so I'll try and clarify it. Virtools, and apparently ShiVa as well, don't create standard executables. Instead they create files that are then played with their respective player software, much like Shockwave games back in the day. With Virtools only the web player was free, the standalone required royalties, but it seems ShiVa allows for all their players to be free.
ShiVa is certainly more powerful than Virtools, but the editor does remind of it in that it seems to be geared toward non-programmers.
10/20/2008 (11:29 am)
I'm taking a look at it and I can't help but get a Virtools-esque vibe from it. The setup is similar. Games created with it have to use their player in order to be played. At least with this one it seems the stand alone players are free.ShiVa looks inexpensive on the surface, but if you want to create a networked game it looks like you have to purchase their server software, which is around $482 for the cheap version.
After being asked about my Virtools comment I realized it probably only made since to those who have had experience with Virtools so I'll try and clarify it. Virtools, and apparently ShiVa as well, don't create standard executables. Instead they create files that are then played with their respective player software, much like Shockwave games back in the day. With Virtools only the web player was free, the standalone required royalties, but it seems ShiVa allows for all their players to be free.
ShiVa is certainly more powerful than Virtools, but the editor does remind of it in that it seems to be geared toward non-programmers.
#3
As I said ShiVa's not perfect but it's making Torque a hard choice for the iPhone which is my prime concern at the moment. In addition you can test the server software just as you can test the standard software so you don't have to pay to learn. The fact that you can fully evaluate ShiVa I think speaks highly of its design which is very elegant and modern.
The point is that $500 + $100 per title is stupid when there are other choices popping up quickly. Instead of eroding the Torque user base, Garage Games should be rewarding them with useful tools at real indie prices. Instead indies like myself are forced to go looking elsewhere for useful technology at affordable prices. Garage Games should have had me at hello, instead they lost me with an opportunistic license agreement.
10/20/2008 (12:01 pm)
$482 is still cheaper than $500 just for iPhone export. In addition, ShiVa is a more modern tool than TGE and it's 3D unlike TGB, which doesn't support real-time networking anyway. So if it's more expensive as a base tool I don't mind. It's the fact that there's a huge price to pay just to gain iPhone accessibility that I take issue with.As I said ShiVa's not perfect but it's making Torque a hard choice for the iPhone which is my prime concern at the moment. In addition you can test the server software just as you can test the standard software so you don't have to pay to learn. The fact that you can fully evaluate ShiVa I think speaks highly of its design which is very elegant and modern.
The point is that $500 + $100 per title is stupid when there are other choices popping up quickly. Instead of eroding the Torque user base, Garage Games should be rewarding them with useful tools at real indie prices. Instead indies like myself are forced to go looking elsewhere for useful technology at affordable prices. Garage Games should have had me at hello, instead they lost me with an opportunistic license agreement.
#4
10/20/2008 (12:04 pm)
@Scott: So users need to install a player before being able to play a game made with it? If this is correct it could cause a bit problem regarding protecting the game file (DRM) / distribution etc?
#5
Anyways - more importantly I would like to push the "roll your own" solution. I have 1 game up in the Apple pipeline, and a second game in development with a simple objective-c + opengl solution. It took me maybe a week of coding to get it up running including the first game. For _a lot_ of games it would suffice, and you wont have to pay any royalties/per-title at all.
Especially on the gamble with "how much am I going to sell", running a royalty/per-title based solution might end up damn expensive.
10/20/2008 (12:47 pm)
My vote goes on Unity for 3d - or roll your own for 2d. While iPhone Unity is not available for another 2 days, it will have things like live update of your game. Meaning sit in the editor, change things and it automagically will be shown in the game. If that isnt a nifty feature for productivity, then I dont know what. And a royalty free license on top with a reasonable price.Anyways - more importantly I would like to push the "roll your own" solution. I have 1 game up in the Apple pipeline, and a second game in development with a simple objective-c + opengl solution. It took me maybe a week of coding to get it up running including the first game. For _a lot_ of games it would suffice, and you wont have to pay any royalties/per-title at all.
Especially on the gamble with "how much am I going to sell", running a royalty/per-title based solution might end up damn expensive.
#6
10/20/2008 (1:03 pm)
I would go with Unity but it's still Mac only for development purposes no?
#7
10/20/2008 (2:59 pm)
Yep - still Mac only. No fun on a mini, but possible.
#8
10/20/2008 (4:06 pm)
They have plans to make it windows compatible according to the CEO himself www.developmag.com/news/30649/Unity-CEO-Windows-editor-support-will-at-least-tri... 
#9
10/20/2008 (7:37 pm)
Leroy, the unity guys were saying they were making a windows version back when I was with GG... over 2 years ago.
#10
10/20/2008 (9:46 pm)
Let's see what they announce tomorrow at their Unite conference... :-)
#11
@Martin: Didn't know they had a conference tomorrow, I look forward to hearing what's announced too! I've always wanted to at least give Unity try :)
10/21/2008 (2:37 am)
@Benjamin: Well, if that's the case, let's not hold our breath!@Martin: Didn't know they had a conference tomorrow, I look forward to hearing what's announced too! I've always wanted to at least give Unity try :)
#12
10/21/2008 (6:29 am)
mac only is mostly a moot point since the iPhone sdk is mac only. The only benefit of one over another for mac mini owners is if there is a windows IDE they can develop with but they still have to port over to the mac for deployment.
#13
10/21/2008 (6:41 am)
Using ShiVa you just have to use a simple dialog that coverts the file your Windows machine generates. Thus, I don't actually have to use my Mac to do anything but convert and deploy the app.
#14
10/21/2008 (6:48 am)
@Jeremy: But you couldn't just develop your game on windows with shiVa and then just deploy it to your iphone/ipod right? You still need a mac at some point no?
#15
10/21/2008 (6:52 am)
@Leroy: Yes, I just arrived in Copenhagen for the Unite conference. So I will be live there to see what comes up tomorrow morning after the keynote speech. Yay! :-)
#16
10/21/2008 (7:01 am)
Cool! I suppose you can give us the highlights here if/as required...
#17
10/21/2008 (7:36 am)
Of course. :-) Watch this thread and alikes in the Unity forum. But might need a different thread then or send me a mail. Don't want to hijack the blog (if I didn't already, sorry!).
#18
10/21/2008 (11:05 am)
I am also looking into Unity and Shiva. iTGB is expensive and still not 100% finished from what I read. Also, $100 for each additional app is nutz. 
#19
I hope that this isn't taken as being negative. I think this is really the first complaint I have really had for GG's. Hopefully Jeremy and I have been constructive in our criticisms.
10/21/2008 (12:47 pm)
Unfortunately I would have to agree. $100 per title considering the relatively low margins on sales. I heard games and apps are selling like hot cakes but as soon as there is more saturation it will be tough. I would gladly pay that if I could do a little better than break even. I also have to agree with the putting all your code into C++ to up the speed. Kind of defeats the purpose for a Torque product for me as a 1 man team. I'm sure there are people and teams that are going to be happy with iTorque, but for me it just doesn't seem feasible for me at this time. I need to be quick and agile as a 1 man indie developer trying to break into the biz. Maybe i'm not the customer GG is after for this product. I'm ok with that. Just my 2 cents if I am that customer they are going after.I hope that this isn't taken as being negative. I think this is really the first complaint I have really had for GG's. Hopefully Jeremy and I have been constructive in our criticisms.
#20
10/21/2008 (1:02 pm)
Regarding the 100$ - esp. if you know how Apple is later going to pay you. They are not going to pay you once you have reached the limit of OVERALL 250 US$, they pay you for each region separately. Means, you have to reach that 250 US$ in each region before you get ANY money from Apple for that region. Makes it even harder to get back the money in. Even if it is only 100 US$. But from my experience (with 5 apps in the store) I can tell that the average title makes only a few bucks a day and not these thousands of dollars that a few prominent titles do. In that light, a per title fee is absurd. Really absurd. But as far as I see it, it's only a matter of time until these high costs for iPhone versions of engines are eleminated. There's more and more free iPhone publishing options coming out. Shiva is the first one, although their pipeline might not be the best. But let's see how the market looks like in 6 months.
Torque Owner Leroy Frederick
Thus far TGB/X still gets my vote though as the undisputed 2d game engine for desktop download games so I look forward to seeing what iTGB will develop into considering it's already from such a great pedigree after all it's still early days in it's development. I wouldn't mind a bit of a price adjustment though, but when/if it becomes a one click action from TGB creations to export iPhone it would be less of a issue for me maybe.