Torque for the iPhone Licensing
by Brett Seyler · 08/21/2008 (12:13 am) · 68 comments
Well, we've mulled over a licensing model for our new iTorque (yes, that's the new name, thank you Raphael!) SDK long enough and we're finally ready to announce the licensing model and pricing. Thanks for all the feedback on the thread I posted earlier this week and for all the offers to help with development. We're nearing the level of documentation and ease of use where I think we'll be comfortable opening this up full bore at Indie prices soon, but for now, this is for pros / experts only. We want to ensure only those who won't be frustrated by commercial grade tools will be working with it at this stage, but don't worry, we're going to provide updates to both TGE and TGB on Mac / PC that will let you guys get going in earnest on Mac / PC right away targeting the 480x320 and 320x480 resolution outputs. Your current TGE and TGB project will accept these changes easily, so no worries about porting to these upcoming updates.
Here's what we're going to do:
Indie Licensing (non-transferable, per seat, for those licensees with less than $250k annual turnover)
For current owners of TGE:
$500 for the iTGE SDK and right to publish 1 title. $100 per title thereafter. No royalties, ever.
For current owners of TGB:
$500 for the iTGB SDK and right to publish 1 title. $100 per title thereafter. No royalties, ever.
Commercial Licensing (transferable, per seat)
For current owners of TGE:
$1000 for the iTGE SDK and right to publish 1 title. $500 per title thereafter. No royalties, ever.
For current owners of TGB:
$1000 for the iTGB SDK and right to publish 1 title. $500 per title thereafter. No royalties, ever.
As of now, we'll only be providing the SDK under the terms above to Commercial licensees, but we'll be opening it up under the Indie License and price very soon. Those who are participating in the ongoing development of the SDK will have rights to produce unlimited titles at no cost (thanks again to those of you helping speed this up). If any of you will be at PAX, come see us and we'll be showing some demo iTorque apps live. Cool stuff =)
FAQ
Q. How do I get iTorque?
A. Right now iTorque is only available under Commercial license. Indie licenses will be available shortly. Contact licensing@garagegames.com for more information or to purchase a license.
Q. I'm making a TGE / TGB game now. Will it work with iTGE / iTGB on the iPhone?
A. Yes. Nearly all TGE's features will be supported, but as always, you'll need to watch your memory and consider the hardware. The input mapping is obviously different as well, so you'll need to consider that in your game design.
Q. I want to buy a license for an unlimited number of developers / titles. Do you offer any other choices?
A. Yes. Studio licenses will start at $10k for the SDK and first title. An unlimited number of titles will be more. Contact licensing@garagegames.com for more details.
Q. I'm an Indie. Why can't I license iTorque at the Indie price now?
A. We're concerned that the product will be too difficult to work with for most amateur hobbyist developers at this stage, so only after we're satisfied that the documentation is solid and learning curve is not so steep will we roll this out under the Indie License.
Q. Will iTorque require a splash screen?
A. Yes.
Q. Will iTorque developers be able to share code resources on GG.com?
A. Yes. We'll make sure that the Torque community is free to work together on projects. We're working with Apple on this now. It may be a condition of the license agreement that you agree to post code / script resources on private forums only where other iTorque licensees have access.
Q. Will iTorque work with TGEA games? Will we ever see iTGEA?
A. Not at the moment. TGEA does offer some performance advantages, even at the fixed function level over TGE. The code is also cleaner and has been used by our studio more recently to produce games. The biggest advantage of TGEA over TGE, the advanced visual features like shaders and such, will not be portable to the iPhone though. The iPhone hardware won't support shaders. There may be reason in the future to deprecate these features in a port of TGEA to create an iTGEA though.
Q. Will iTorque work with Torque X / XNA games?
A. No. The iPhone uses an OpenGL ES graphics layer that's not at all compatible with Torque X or XNA.
Any other questions? Feel free to ask in the comments.
-Brett
About the author
Since 2007, I've done my best to steer Torque's development and brand toward the best opportunities in games middleware.
#22
Considering that unity pro allows one button cross-platform deployment, a ginormous amount of features along with things that torque is horribly missing such as a real physics engine, it's well worth the $1500. However you can do a lot with indie on it's own. With indie however you're restricted to platform independent web publishing (similar to instant action) or mac only standalone.
Unity also is very generous in terms of it licensing. I doubt there will be any surprises.
Give the unity pro trial a spin. You'll be amazed at how seamless it is, how it just works.
I wouldn't call access to the source of torque a benefit, if you've actually worked with it. It's a bloated piece of obfuscated spaghetti code written for a 10 year old fps. Unity is a true game engine, torque is a game. It's much easier to start with something you don't have to butcher and rip apart before you can even begin. When you get deep into the bowels of torque's source and find these uncommented functions with one letter variable names you just scratch your head and say, "well I got what I paid for." Torque-2 is supposed to fix all that, but yeah I lost all faith in GG once TGEA was declared 'finished' and we didn't hear a peep for a year. Not going to hold my breath.
In terms of your external library, there is a C++ plugin interface to Unity but you do need pro for that. So $1500 year, but just like torque's $99 you really get what you paid for.
There is also the iphone emulator that comes with the apple SDK. So unity will be 1-button and you're testing your app on a virtual iphone machine. Will make small iterative steps quite easy to test. Those little things will be a PITA when developing on torque, having to push your app back to an iphone/ipod for testing a simple change to a font positioning say.
08/21/2008 (5:13 pm)
Quote:nity Pro on its own is already $1500 and the iPhone Support is an addon to that, at least it seems so.
The rest of the licensing is not even known (royality, per title fee, ...)
Considering that unity pro allows one button cross-platform deployment, a ginormous amount of features along with things that torque is horribly missing such as a real physics engine, it's well worth the $1500. However you can do a lot with indie on it's own. With indie however you're restricted to platform independent web publishing (similar to instant action) or mac only standalone.
Unity also is very generous in terms of it licensing. I doubt there will be any surprises.
Quote:
We are currently evaluating both.
The main benefit we would see in unity is the possibility to deploy to standalone + iPhone + web. The later would be a nice extension to the concept as it extends the "its with you, whereever you are" factor.
Give the unity pro trial a spin. You'll be amazed at how seamless it is, how it just works.
Quote:
The main benefit of the torque side is that you have access to the source (don't know about iTorque but for sure its base technology) which gives the possibility to integrate 3rd party libraries like Medialytics which is something I seriously want to include if possible.
I wouldn't call access to the source of torque a benefit, if you've actually worked with it. It's a bloated piece of obfuscated spaghetti code written for a 10 year old fps. Unity is a true game engine, torque is a game. It's much easier to start with something you don't have to butcher and rip apart before you can even begin. When you get deep into the bowels of torque's source and find these uncommented functions with one letter variable names you just scratch your head and say, "well I got what I paid for." Torque-2 is supposed to fix all that, but yeah I lost all faith in GG once TGEA was declared 'finished' and we didn't hear a peep for a year. Not going to hold my breath.
In terms of your external library, there is a C++ plugin interface to Unity but you do need pro for that. So $1500 year, but just like torque's $99 you really get what you paid for.
There is also the iphone emulator that comes with the apple SDK. So unity will be 1-button and you're testing your app on a virtual iphone machine. Will make small iterative steps quite easy to test. Those little things will be a PITA when developing on torque, having to push your app back to an iphone/ipod for testing a simple change to a font positioning say.
#23
Yes.
Yes. But if you wait for us to finish it for the Indie license, there's no need. I don't expect it will be long.
@Jacobin: Would you like a refund? It would be worth it to me (and likely many other who read gg.com blogs) to not have you spewing unhelpful crap about Torque here. Sorry you feel burnt, but it sounds like you haven't been paying attention. Torque *does* have an abstracted physics layer and you *can* use PhysX or any other 3rd party solution you wish. In addition, ask most developers about having access to source code and they'll tell you it's essential. Not having it can create enormous headaches and cause you slip weeks or even months in a project. Hundreds of developers have used Torque to actually ship games. Unity tools are great, but there do seem to a few Unity users who post on GG only to bitch. Ship your game. See how kind people are to a product you create. It might change your perspective some.
@everyone else: Thanks for the comments guys. I'm glad most of you are happy with the model. That's what I was shooting for. Now it's on all of us to make some kickass games for the iPhone!
08/21/2008 (6:09 pm)
@James:Quote:Is the Commercial license available right now? (as in not in a few weeks, etc.)
Yes.
Quote:And does this mean if you only have an indy license you must first purchase regular commercial license then the iPhone license? For example TGB $495 + iPhone License $1000 = $1495
Yes. But if you wait for us to finish it for the Indie license, there's no need. I don't expect it will be long.
@Jacobin: Would you like a refund? It would be worth it to me (and likely many other who read gg.com blogs) to not have you spewing unhelpful crap about Torque here. Sorry you feel burnt, but it sounds like you haven't been paying attention. Torque *does* have an abstracted physics layer and you *can* use PhysX or any other 3rd party solution you wish. In addition, ask most developers about having access to source code and they'll tell you it's essential. Not having it can create enormous headaches and cause you slip weeks or even months in a project. Hundreds of developers have used Torque to actually ship games. Unity tools are great, but there do seem to a few Unity users who post on GG only to bitch. Ship your game. See how kind people are to a product you create. It might change your perspective some.
@everyone else: Thanks for the comments guys. I'm glad most of you are happy with the model. That's what I was shooting for. Now it's on all of us to make some kickass games for the iPhone!
#24
08/21/2008 (6:21 pm)
I really like the iTGB icon. Now I need to learn TGB better and wait for the indie license. Thanks!
#25
You are right that TGE and TGEA have pretty FPS centric engine design.
But for my purpose this isn't that counter productive. Not that it will be an FPS or even near. But some of the stuff needed for are very common in FPS especially.
As for the physics part: Unity is clearly not in the position to claim itself to be better.
Yes it has PhysX implement. No, its not even half of what physx can do and I've not the least bit of an idea of how old the version is.
Clearly no PhysX 8.x for sure.
So its not that much better.
My benefit: I don't need and want real physics. Its not needed. What I need are mainly ray cast against other objects and the terrain as well as projectors (where Unity clearly misses it pretty badly)
Both are great in their own aspects, for what I need both have more or less whats asked for. Unity has the 1 click deploy, TGB / TGE have the deploy to windows and osx without paying $1300 extra for it.
I've as well more experience with Torque (started with TGB EA 0.7 or the like. TGB Source is a great start to learn torque technology or has at least been back then, now its more complex as well, went then to TGE and over to TGEA and back to TGE) than with Unity.
Flexibility wise, Torque is the winner.
Simplicity wise and streamlined pipeline and workflow, unity wins.
Beeing able to develop on my main dev machine: unity gets 0 of X points due to beeing OSX only, clear winner is Torque as my main dev is Vista64, 8GB RAM, 8800GTS 640MB SuperClocked, 4 Disk RAID5 (cost me $2500, comparable mac machines don't exist, Apple does not see the need for acceptable performant graphics solution in their overpriced towers, only trash and massively over the top superscale CAD)
Thats why I have to carefully evaluate. I don't want to redo the stuff again so I implement the basics, check how much extra work I've to put in to work around issues, how simple it is to reach my desired targets etc.
08/21/2008 (7:41 pm)
Jacobin: Both technologies have their pro and con, I own TGB, TGE and TGEA as well as Unity Indie (and had a Unity Pro Trial on Unity 2.0.2)You are right that TGE and TGEA have pretty FPS centric engine design.
But for my purpose this isn't that counter productive. Not that it will be an FPS or even near. But some of the stuff needed for are very common in FPS especially.
As for the physics part: Unity is clearly not in the position to claim itself to be better.
Yes it has PhysX implement. No, its not even half of what physx can do and I've not the least bit of an idea of how old the version is.
Clearly no PhysX 8.x for sure.
So its not that much better.
My benefit: I don't need and want real physics. Its not needed. What I need are mainly ray cast against other objects and the terrain as well as projectors (where Unity clearly misses it pretty badly)
Both are great in their own aspects, for what I need both have more or less whats asked for. Unity has the 1 click deploy, TGB / TGE have the deploy to windows and osx without paying $1300 extra for it.
I've as well more experience with Torque (started with TGB EA 0.7 or the like. TGB Source is a great start to learn torque technology or has at least been back then, now its more complex as well, went then to TGE and over to TGEA and back to TGE) than with Unity.
Flexibility wise, Torque is the winner.
Simplicity wise and streamlined pipeline and workflow, unity wins.
Beeing able to develop on my main dev machine: unity gets 0 of X points due to beeing OSX only, clear winner is Torque as my main dev is Vista64, 8GB RAM, 8800GTS 640MB SuperClocked, 4 Disk RAID5 (cost me $2500, comparable mac machines don't exist, Apple does not see the need for acceptable performant graphics solution in their overpriced towers, only trash and massively over the top superscale CAD)
Thats why I have to carefully evaluate. I don't want to redo the stuff again so I implement the basics, check how much extra work I've to put in to work around issues, how simple it is to reach my desired targets etc.
#26
08/21/2008 (8:58 pm)
@Brett simply put.. Thank you. =)
#27
08/21/2008 (9:11 pm)
These prices are great news. Appreciate it. 
#28
@Jacobin, I speak from experience, PhysX is pretty useless without the source to your engine. Also a hearty dose of the LULZ to the rest of your post.
08/22/2008 (1:34 am)
@Brett, awesome plan you guys laid out there :) @Jacobin, I speak from experience, PhysX is pretty useless without the source to your engine. Also a hearty dose of the LULZ to the rest of your post.
#29
Will
08/22/2008 (2:35 am)
Great news guys, congrats. Me being a sound and Ambient designer of music and more spacey tunes, what, if anything, will my new Ambient sounds have to consider now? memory? and does this mean iTGE will support the general ogg format as usual too? Just wondering if I would have to adjust my packs to make iAmbient packs on a smaller scale or something as usual run times on my sounds run about 1 minute to 3 minutes each and that could really hurt someone using my sound packs on this platform. Would love the specs about it so I know how to plan around this prob if it's really one to begin with... I figure just use smaller files when releasing to the target platform... Thanks for any info...Will
#30
Assuming we're an iPhone Developer (access to the store/sdk through apple, which I'm guessing is required), what is making the upgrades (Indie-wise) more expensive? I'm guessing I'm just clueless about possible licensing issues that GG has to deal with when providing Apple SDK tools? Maybe it's that much work that had to be done to the engine to make it iPhone compatible (more work than the original engines required cost-wise with the cost difference)? I'm hoping its not purely related to the popularity of the apple store (maybe being seen as a cash cow to milk), as that would make me think that may be the future of products such as TorqueX as well if the community games turns out to be a hit.
Also, Indie-wise, why the move to a per-title fee as opposed to previous one-time fees? Again, is it due to licensing requirements from Apple? Don't get me wrong, it sounds pretty good that this is being released. I am just querying for some insight into this change and hoping that it isn't a possible sign of changes coming to the other engines or in any way just a cash cow for other projects (such as in-house games or InstantAction as opposed to further dev on the engines)?
I've been pretty happy with GarageGames so far and even this seems pretty cool. I'm just curious (plus the RTS kit messages - and clarification - got me worried the engine area would become a cash cow for inhouse projects and games).
The cost of getting TGE/TGB plus the 500 dollars for the first title (on top of Apple's 99 dollar fee) seems to be pushing the Indie starting requirements up some.
Anyways, good job on stuff and remember, I'm just throwing stuff out to get a better idea of the way things are working and any insight into the future. As far as the Unity3D comments go, until they make a Windows client (without requiring me to build a hackintosh or buy a mac), it doesn't matter to me that it's cross-platform. I've got bills to pay and do this stuff as a hobby (which I'm sure many on the apple store and xna community do as well - nothing wrong with making 99 cents or two for your hobby) so Unity3D is out of the question for me (well for now anywhow).
EDIT: As an after-thought I just released that free games are going to cost money for each project. Is there going to be an option for games that are released for free on the apple store (there are quite a few free apps on the store from hobbyists like us already)? Everyone already understands even releasing free stuff with XNA or any Torque/Unity/Neo engine is going to cost a small fee, but we usually consider that fee to be the price of having a fun hobby, like buying miniatures or books or something :-) Is it safe to say that releasing free games on the apple app store is going to cost 100 bucks a pop after the initial setup fee? Again, i'm just curious, or prehaps maybe this may spur some thought on the subject, which is always good :-)
ANOTHER EDIT: I had a complete brainfart. Forget the whole crap about not having a MAC. I don't know what I was thinking, as you can't develop anything without a mac in the first place, torque or otherwise for the phone.. brainfart :-) The mac mini would be a good choice except I've read on various forms that the bottleneck is the integrated gfx on those systems. The other stuff is valid food for thought though. Having realized that, I'm guessing it's easy pickens as people with a Mac will be willing to pay more :-)
08/22/2008 (4:05 am)
I noticed that this is (unless I missed something) the first GG Engine Indie License that is going to be costing on a per-title basis. Also, it seems odd that the Indie upgrades (assuming you already own the Indie appropriate license) are more expensive than the underlying engine license itself. I think i'm missing part of the picture. Assuming we're an iPhone Developer (access to the store/sdk through apple, which I'm guessing is required), what is making the upgrades (Indie-wise) more expensive? I'm guessing I'm just clueless about possible licensing issues that GG has to deal with when providing Apple SDK tools? Maybe it's that much work that had to be done to the engine to make it iPhone compatible (more work than the original engines required cost-wise with the cost difference)? I'm hoping its not purely related to the popularity of the apple store (maybe being seen as a cash cow to milk), as that would make me think that may be the future of products such as TorqueX as well if the community games turns out to be a hit.
Also, Indie-wise, why the move to a per-title fee as opposed to previous one-time fees? Again, is it due to licensing requirements from Apple? Don't get me wrong, it sounds pretty good that this is being released. I am just querying for some insight into this change and hoping that it isn't a possible sign of changes coming to the other engines or in any way just a cash cow for other projects (such as in-house games or InstantAction as opposed to further dev on the engines)?
I've been pretty happy with GarageGames so far and even this seems pretty cool. I'm just curious (plus the RTS kit messages - and clarification - got me worried the engine area would become a cash cow for inhouse projects and games).
The cost of getting TGE/TGB plus the 500 dollars for the first title (on top of Apple's 99 dollar fee) seems to be pushing the Indie starting requirements up some.
Anyways, good job on stuff and remember, I'm just throwing stuff out to get a better idea of the way things are working and any insight into the future. As far as the Unity3D comments go, until they make a Windows client (without requiring me to build a hackintosh or buy a mac), it doesn't matter to me that it's cross-platform. I've got bills to pay and do this stuff as a hobby (which I'm sure many on the apple store and xna community do as well - nothing wrong with making 99 cents or two for your hobby) so Unity3D is out of the question for me (well for now anywhow).
EDIT: As an after-thought I just released that free games are going to cost money for each project. Is there going to be an option for games that are released for free on the apple store (there are quite a few free apps on the store from hobbyists like us already)? Everyone already understands even releasing free stuff with XNA or any Torque/Unity/Neo engine is going to cost a small fee, but we usually consider that fee to be the price of having a fun hobby, like buying miniatures or books or something :-) Is it safe to say that releasing free games on the apple app store is going to cost 100 bucks a pop after the initial setup fee? Again, i'm just curious, or prehaps maybe this may spur some thought on the subject, which is always good :-)
ANOTHER EDIT: I had a complete brainfart. Forget the whole crap about not having a MAC. I don't know what I was thinking, as you can't develop anything without a mac in the first place, torque or otherwise for the phone.. brainfart :-) The mac mini would be a good choice except I've read on various forms that the bottleneck is the integrated gfx on those systems. The other stuff is valid food for thought though. Having realized that, I'm guessing it's easy pickens as people with a Mac will be willing to pay more :-)
#31
I like the $100 per game. this will allow us to put experimental games out there without the financial risk.
A true indie experience minus the pain of developing your own engine.
08/22/2008 (6:26 pm)
Great plan Brett,I like the $100 per game. this will allow us to put experimental games out there without the financial risk.
A true indie experience minus the pain of developing your own engine.
#32
08/22/2008 (11:16 pm)
Woah that's expensive. So because it's a lot for an indie license will there be a ticketed support system? Or are we relying on the community and not the company to support issues? I was told there was no direct ticketting system for the other products, TGB, TGEA etc because the revenue was so low. These new prices seems to warrant a better form of support. 
#33
As for development costs, you shouldn't need to buy the Apple subscription (300 bucks to be able to sell a product) just to test on your own device. An iPod Touch is also 100% compatible in the graphics/sound/input features, but lacking fancy things like networking. There's no need to own an actual iPhone to develop for it, unless the developers I've talked to are full of lies :)
08/23/2008 (3:30 am)
I'd be happy with these prices. If I had a passable product that sells well, the $500 wouldn't be too much money. No royalties is great. So if I understand this right, I just rework my graphics for the iPhone resolutions and switch controls to touch input, then the rest of the scripts remain the same?As for development costs, you shouldn't need to buy the Apple subscription (300 bucks to be able to sell a product) just to test on your own device. An iPod Touch is also 100% compatible in the graphics/sound/input features, but lacking fancy things like networking. There's no need to own an actual iPhone to develop for it, unless the developers I've talked to are full of lies :)
#34
The iPod touch only lacks 3 things: Phone related stuff (3g, edge etc + proximity sensor, vibra alarm), Camera, Microphone
all the rest is present, including 802.11g networking
Also you don't need the $299 subscription to sell applications. You only need the $99
$299 is for in-house distribution if you do development of applications for your business for example. Then the other company members don't have to buy it but can download it for free.
08/23/2008 (12:09 pm)
The iPod touch has networking, where does this massive amount of missinformation on the iPhone come from?The iPod touch only lacks 3 things: Phone related stuff (3g, edge etc + proximity sensor, vibra alarm), Camera, Microphone
all the rest is present, including 802.11g networking
Also you don't need the $299 subscription to sell applications. You only need the $99
$299 is for in-house distribution if you do development of applications for your business for example. Then the other company members don't have to buy it but can download it for free.
#35
08/23/2008 (1:21 pm)
Ah, I must have read Apple's pages wrong. That IS really easy, though ;) 
#36
08/23/2008 (2:10 pm)
The iPod touch also lacks the vibrating feature. I know I'm going to want to use that feature in my games.
#37
I would think the TGB/TorqueX/TGE and even TGEA would be the indie experience to base it on (low upfront cost for the engine, nothing per game, no royalties).?? I agree that the apple product here is really useful for indies and doesn't cost a fortune, but I wouldn't go so far as saying its a true indie experience when we're at the home of TGE/TGB :-) - again, unless they are going to a similar pricing model in the future.
EDIT: TorqueX would probably be the closest to something for the iPhone since you would probably want the 99 dollar Microsoft Creator's Club subscription.
08/23/2008 (5:09 pm)
Quote:I like the $100 per game. this will allow us to put experimental games out there without the financial risk.
A true indie experience minus the pain of developing your own engine.
I would think the TGB/TorqueX/TGE and even TGEA would be the indie experience to base it on (low upfront cost for the engine, nothing per game, no royalties).?? I agree that the apple product here is really useful for indies and doesn't cost a fortune, but I wouldn't go so far as saying its a true indie experience when we're at the home of TGE/TGB :-) - again, unless they are going to a similar pricing model in the future.
EDIT: TorqueX would probably be the closest to something for the iPhone since you would probably want the 99 dollar Microsoft Creator's Club subscription.
#38
I am shocked that no one has given you the seal of awesomeness. All throughout the thread in the forum you started, people blasted, thru grenades, and made suggestions, and you, somehow, thru it all kept your head and even pulled out the information you were looking for. I just want to say that you are one of the greatest employees GG and IAC could ask for. Thankyou.
08/23/2008 (10:09 pm)
Brett,I am shocked that no one has given you the seal of awesomeness. All throughout the thread in the forum you started, people blasted, thru grenades, and made suggestions, and you, somehow, thru it all kept your head and even pulled out the information you were looking for. I just want to say that you are one of the greatest employees GG and IAC could ask for. Thankyou.
#39
I'd also encourage a Photoshop war, but I really can't afford to lose my job right now.
08/24/2008 (4:18 am)
Stamped and delivered:I'd also encourage a Photoshop war, but I really can't afford to lose my job right now.
#40
08/24/2008 (8:23 pm)
I'm eather going to have to steal that image, or ask for it. :-D It's awesome in itself.Quote:I'd also encourage a Photoshop war,hehe, cruel...funny tho. :-D I'd give up an image to "the cause" but I'm no good at photoshop.
Torque Owner James Griggs
And does this mean if you only have an indy license you must first purchase regular commercial license then the iPhone license? For example TGB $495 + iPhone License $1000 = $1495
Again, good job and thanks for listening. No royalties is great!