Is it a Scam? (TGEA Plug-in by Mr. Dekker Ying) Facts and points of intresst

So. Something finaly got my attention enought to write up a .plan about it. Too bad though that it's something depressing.

I originaly wrote this as a mail to Garage Games. But the topic is so important that I think the rest of the community have the right to know.


The following is a report about my findings after investigating Mr. Dekker Ying's TGEA Plug-in.
But incase it ends up that I'm wrong (any by god I hope so), and all this was just one big misunderstanding. Then I would like to extend my apologies to Mr. Dekker that have made this great resource.

Bad Business practices?

About two weeks ago I read a .plan on GG about a enhanced terrain plug-in for TGEA (Resource removed by creator).
Like many other people I got excited at the prospect of having high quality, easy-to-use, WYSISYG Atlas terrain. So, I sent him a mail asking for more information.
And right of from the start I got a bad feeling. This is the first mail between me and Dekker Ying:

Quote:2008-02-20 20:26, "dekkerying@***.com"

Hello Mikael,
If you need it, I'll sell it to you just by mail(private, not public, no one will know you got it). NOT PUBLIC!
If you buy it, you should not tell any one you got it.
Just combination it to your project.
Can you guarantee it will just private you to use?

Regards,
Dekker

2008-02-09, "Mikael Pettersson" :

I recently read your resource on Garage Games about the Atlas terrain enhancements that you had done.
And I would be interested in utilizing your code in a project I'm working on.

Best Regards
Mikael "Evanion" Pettersson

In a mail that contains five lines of text and ~50 words he emphasized the wish to keep it a secret no fewer than 6 times (Bold text).
Now granted this is no reason to call it a scam, but it definitely got me on my guard. As a Producer it is my prime obligation to protect the integrity of the project, and to ensure that we don't use stolen or in other ways unethically acquired code (and I'm sure that any other project Manager will agree to this).

On Feb 19 Sven Myhre posted that his studio had ended up purchasing the plug-in. He reported that the source code is solid and well documented.
Later the same day he let everyone know that Mr. Dekker had sold the entire rights of the plug-in system to Myhre, and that it was no longer available for other buyers.
(See attached image "plan_post.jpg")

Now I might have left it at that, but my initial mail with Dekker had given me a bad feeling, and I wanted to double check them by posing as a potential buyer. If his intentions was honorable, he would turn me down saying that he no longer owned the plug-in.

So I sent him the following message:

Quote:2008-02-20, "Mikael Pettersson" :

Right, I have had a chat with the team, and the response is good.
What kind of agreement did you have in mind?

Best Regards
Mikael Pettersson

He sent me the following reply:

Quote:2008-02-20 20:26, "Jamek99"

Hello Mikael, Greeting

I all do this for my studio have enough financing to work...
I do that is a secret, so please don't tell anyone..
Just assemble it to your project only please...
Assemble is easy, believe me!
The plug is independence, not include TGEA.

You'll see the demo by this url:
Link: http://download.yousendit.com/...

If you like it, please for $950..
My paypal is: dekker.y@163.com

Or your advice?

Please keep it as a secret!
Thank you very much!

Regards,
Dekker

Again he emphasize the wish to keep everything a secret no more than three times. And as you can see the mail is dated the day after Sven Myhre's post about no longer owning the rights.
Now it might be possible that Mr. Myhre have misread the whole situation and not really got an exclusive right to the plug-in.
All we know is that Dekker admitted ownership of the code to Mr. Myhre at 08:18 Feb 20. Following a question about it on the .plan (something that later got removed the same day for some reason).
(See attached image "plan_post.jpg" for more info)

Now I received the last mail from Mr. Dekker at 20:26. Three minutes later at 20:29 I received the following mail:

Quote:2008-02-20 20:29, "Jamek99"

Don't tell anyone the url, please.
Just for you download.

Thanks.

Again he emphasizes the wish to keep everything a secret.

Summary:
* Mr. Dekker have emphasized an abnormal amount of times the wish to keep all transactions a secret.
* Mr. Dekker Acknowledged the rights of the plug-in to Sven Myhre. But continues to sell the product in secret.
* His English is bad and vague. A serious person would take the time to make sure what he is easy to understand and not repeat the same thing over and over.
* Mr. Dekker is unwilling to work with Garage Games on marketing the plug-in to the public. Even though he would end up getting more costumers, and revenue.


Breaking the EULA?

Early on the topic about whether or not the plug-in was breaking the EULA came up.
First I wanted to clarify if the plug-in was "TGEA ready". Since this would confirm whether or not Mr. Dekker have been in contact with the source for TGEA.
So I sent him the following message:

Quote:2008-02-21, "Mikael Pettersson" :

Ok, so is it TGEA ready, or do we have to integrate it in TGEA ourselves (i.e., write the interfacing code between your code and TGEA)?

I received the following reply:

Quote:2008-02-20 21:09, "Jamek99"

Ok, it is easy... :)~
See note.txt...

Thanks.

Soon followed by a more detailed reply:

Quote:2008-02-20 21:09, "Jamek99"

You'll get project file!!:D~

1)include all file in directory "clientEx". Add "Preprocessor" like the ".vcproj" done.
2)search "@y_must" see LITTLE modified, you should modify it.

Now, if this is all you need to do in order to implement the plug-in. I would definitely say that he have been in contact with the source for TGEA.
Further strengthening this is the fact that he admits that part of the code is based on the AtlasChunk code. Witch (as far as I know) is protected by the TGEA EULA.
Now came the time to see if he actually owned a license for TGEA.
When you look at someone's profile on GG, you can see two things of interest: Date of registration and "note". The note field will specify whether or not someone owns a Torque product.


* On Mr. Dekker's profile there is no Torque license specified (this is done automatically when you purchase a license and is nothing that the user can change).

* In the original .plan post Mr. Dekker states that he developed the plug-in between July and September last year. But he didn't become a member of Garage Games until 2008-02-06.


Now, there is only two ways that he could have got a hold of the code somewhat legally:


* As a employee for a company that uses TGEA in their products.

* Having a second user account that contains the license.


Now if the first scenario is true, then this is STOLEN code. And means that Mr. Dekker is not only breaking the EULA (explained later on) but is probably committing a crime by stealing the code from his employer.
If the second scenario is true, then why don't he simply use that account to market his product? Now if you where paying attention you would have noticed that he started off the conversation with the address of "dekkerying@***.com" and ended up with "Jamek99@***.com", so he might very well have a second account registered on the second e-mail.

Ok so why am I saying that he is breaking the EULA?
Well if we take a look at the commercial license for TGEA it clearly states in the restrictions section

Quote:3. RESTRICTIONS.

The following restrictions apply to the use of this Engine:

(a) Licensee may not: (i) create any derivative works of the Engine, including but not limited to translations, localizations, starter kits, technology add-ons, or game making software other than Games; (ii) reverse engineer, or otherwise attempt to derive the algorithms for the Engine (iii) redistribute, encumber, sell, rent, lease, sublicense, or otherwise transfer rights to the Engine; or (iv) remove or alter any trademark, logo, copyright or other proprietary notices, legends, symbols or labels in the Engine.

(see attachment "EULA.jpg" for more info)

I chose the commercial license since the indie license is even more restricted. But if you take a look at the indie license you will see that this plug-in breaks that EULA as well.
This means that if Mr. Dekker wants to sell the plug-in, he would have to negotiate a special agreement with Garage Games. Something that he repeatedly have expressed that he don't want to do.

I sent the following mail in order to see if he was willing to work with GG, if it would be beneficial for him (underlined):

Quote:2008-02-21, "Mikael Pettersson" :

No I'm the Producer. But we do have a Programmer.
Hmm ... slow download on that site,

While I wait for the demo to complete downloading... I have some questions. Is the terrain a enhancement of Atlas, or a totally new terrain system?
Is there a way to make holes in the terrain for cave openings etc?


Oh and some financial advice. ^^
If you sold the plug-in on GG for 100-200 USD you would get at least 50 times as many buyers.
That means more money for your project ^^

I got the following reply:

Quote:2008-02-20 21:09, "Jamek99"

Online?
Thanks for yor advise.
Not public with GG...
Just for very a little people... :D
Thanks!

So he clearly don't want to draw too much attention to himself.


Summary

* Mr. Dekker have demonstrated bad business practice.

* Is breaking (or at least bending) the EULA.

* The possibility of stolen code is present.

* Is unwilling to work with Garage Games, even though this clearly would benefit him a lot more.



My recommendations are:

* In case you already have bought the license. You should be prepared for the possibility of getting sued for stolen code.

* If you are currently in contact with Dekker about buying the plug-in, to halt the negotiation until these issues are cleared out.



Now I downloaded the demo that Mr. Dekker sent me. And I must say in his defense that it stands up to everything he have said (at first glanze, i got some errors when using the editor). This IS a real-time WYSIWYG editor with tiling Atlas (similar) Terrain.
The plug-in is stable, and definitely good enough to work with.

Follow up

I have contacted Mr. Myhre asking if I could get some closer information on his agreement with Mr. Dekker.
If I'm lucky I will get some definitive information on whether or not their deal was exclusive for the rights of the code (something that Mr. Dekker in that case already have shown intentions of breaking).

I have also contacted Elkon Games, asking for any information they can give me in regards to their contact with Mr. Dekker.

Personal Thoughts

After making this "investigation" I would definitely recommend against buying or using this resource. Since the risk if it compromising the integrity of your product is too great.

However, since we now see what can be done with the atlas tech, and a possible way of implementing it. I think it warrants further investigations by both the community at large and by Garage Games. With the hopes of developing a similar functionality that is 100% legal and safe.

(PS. I removed half of the link to download the demo in order to keep Dekker's interests protected, in case it ends up showing that this was all just one giant misunderstanding. DS.)


Reference Images
plan_post.jpg
EULA.jpg

Reference Pages
The original Post by Mr. Dekker
The Commercial EULA

[Edit:] Fixed some capital I's.
[Edit2:] Muted the e-mail adresses after some good points from comments.



Update:
I have got several mails sent to me following the release of this .plan. And the prices that Mr. Dekker have given them have varied from $1600 to $850.

I have also recived a update from Elkon Games. But they didn't have any new information to share, that we didn't already know.

Mr. Dekker have Since the release of this .plan removed his .plan and Asked me to do the same.

But I think this .plan should stay.
Not to humiliate or mock Mr. Dekker, but to emphasize the interest and need for a working Atlas terrain. And to show that there IS money to be made if someone can make a good implementation of this. And I'm sure that as long as that person/studio works with Garage Games, they could make some money on it, and the community would think its Christmas ten times over.

(2005-02-29) Got an e-mail from Sven Myhre today where he says the following:

Quote:
After all the double-crossing and controversy going on, we decided we did not wanted to be associated with neither the software nor Mr. Dekker, and cancelled all our agreements with Mr. Dekker. We also wanted to make sure our future products would not be subject to any violation of the GarageGames license terms.

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Just changed the settings so that users cannot post/comment so that the various e-mail data that has been posted isn't out and about in the spambot eye. - David Blake
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