Big Update to TGEA on the way!
by Matt Fairfax · 01/18/2008 (10:38 pm) · 128 comments
Hi GarageGames Community! I know I have been awfully quiet recently but trust me...it was worth it!
Ever since I handed off community management to the supremely capable hands of David Blake, I have been jamming away on the next big update to Torque. As many of you know, we spent much of 2007 merging the Torque C++ engine products into one code base which we've been referring to as Torque Juggernaut. There are big opportunities here to update both TGEA and TGE. I focused on TGEA 1.0.3 as a start here, but as you'll see below, we've made some *big* moves.
Huge credit goes to Clark and his team working on the core engine for all their hard work on Juggernaut over the past year. Juggernaut includes lots of updates, bug fixes, and feature additions to the Torque line up. What we're looking to release here will look a lot like TGEA, but it's really another stepping stone to our longer term goal of a fully componentized Torque Engine.
TGEA...more is on the way
What you'll see:
All the features of TGEA 1.0.3 PLUS 99% of TGE 1.5.2 PLUS:
Multiple Terrain Tiles (with full editor support)
Stronghold (starter.fps)
TGE Feature Demo
Tim Aste's Forge demo
Shhhh... early yet, but this new demo is going to be BEAUTIFUL
Release will include SpaceOrc, TorqueOrc, Elf, Forge guy, Spacesuit guy, and BoomBot
TGB-style Offline Docs
At this point I am sure that there are a few questions on everyone's mind!
How much will this cost? This is a free update for TGEA owners. It doesn't get much better than that!
Will this include OpenGL? Sadly, no, this update will not include OpenGL. All of the work we have done on OpenGL is still not ready for release.
When will this update be ready? As always, this is a hard question to answer. GarageGames is more committed to high quality releases than ever before so this update will not go out the door until it is polished and ready. The Associates are already participating in a closed Beta and have been giving great help and feedback. I expect to have a fairly complete version of it demoing at GDC next month but I will not hesitate to put in a couple of extra weeks on documentation and bugfixing if it needs it (please email me if you would like to help with docs). There is still a lot of ground to cover but we are making rapid progress on it!
Hopefully everyone reading this is as excited as I am about this update! Be sure to go check out the awesome things that the game teams are doing with it in Fallen Empire: Legions
Fallen Empire: Legions
Ever since I handed off community management to the supremely capable hands of David Blake, I have been jamming away on the next big update to Torque. As many of you know, we spent much of 2007 merging the Torque C++ engine products into one code base which we've been referring to as Torque Juggernaut. There are big opportunities here to update both TGEA and TGE. I focused on TGEA 1.0.3 as a start here, but as you'll see below, we've made some *big* moves.
Huge credit goes to Clark and his team working on the core engine for all their hard work on Juggernaut over the past year. Juggernaut includes lots of updates, bug fixes, and feature additions to the Torque line up. What we're looking to release here will look a lot like TGEA, but it's really another stepping stone to our longer term goal of a fully componentized Torque Engine.
TGEA...more is on the wayWhat you'll see:
All the features of TGEA 1.0.3 PLUS 99% of TGE 1.5.2 PLUS:
- 1. A brand new completely abstracted sound system (SFX) with a DirectSound and OpenAL implementation (credit to Tom Spilman).
- 2. Major reworks of GFX layers and the addition of a D3D8 layer
- 3. All of the rendering objects should now support fixed function fallbacks for non-shadered video cards
- 4. Introduction of the Project Generator - a system that automates generating up-to-date Visual Studio projects files based on which "modules" of code you want to include
- 5. Significant directory reorganizations with an eye towards making it easier to work with for both experienced and new users
- 6. A ton of bugfixes done by the internal development team as they worked towards a fully componentized version of Torque
- 7. Lots of refactoring and general code cleanup
- 8. Port of some of the missing TGE classes including Lightning, fxShapeReplicator, and RigidShape
- 9. The famous Ben Garney's OPCODE polysoup collision implementation
- 10. Support for multiple legacy terrain tiles (including full editor support) - this should make building a paging terrain manager for massive environments a lot easier and will support realtime editing
Multiple Terrain Tiles (with full editor support)
- 11. Ports of the TGE demo and starter.fps with performance tweaks
Stronghold (starter.fps)
TGE Feature Demo- 12. A couple unreleased demos! A small team is slaving away to bring you a never-before-seen feature demo that will knock off those socks.
Tim Aste's Forge demo
Shhhh... early yet, but this new demo is going to be BEAUTIFUL
- 13. Previously unreleased Player models bringing the total count up to 6!
Release will include SpaceOrc, TorqueOrc, Elf, Forge guy, Spacesuit guy, and BoomBot- 14. Clipmapping support for legacy terrain allows higher resolution terrain textures and gives a general performance boost
- 15. Jeff Faust's fantastic AFX Kit should be updated for compatibility with this new version and he's already brought over most of the excellent bugfixes he posted on the TGEA forums including multiple particles per emitter
- 16. Reworked Material system is easier to use and performs better
- 17. Improved functionality in the Mission Editor with work from Dave Wyand, with a few new features that make it much easier to use
- 18. GUI Editor improvements making it easier to use
- 19. TGB-style offline docs and tutorials for better / faster accessibility
TGB-style Offline Docs
- 20. Abstracted Lighting allows you to plug in different lighting systems of your choice. Current built in options include:
- a) Basic Lighting System (really simple)
- b) John Kabus' Synapse Gaming Lighting System
At this point I am sure that there are a few questions on everyone's mind!
How much will this cost? This is a free update for TGEA owners. It doesn't get much better than that!
Will this include OpenGL? Sadly, no, this update will not include OpenGL. All of the work we have done on OpenGL is still not ready for release.
When will this update be ready? As always, this is a hard question to answer. GarageGames is more committed to high quality releases than ever before so this update will not go out the door until it is polished and ready. The Associates are already participating in a closed Beta and have been giving great help and feedback. I expect to have a fairly complete version of it demoing at GDC next month but I will not hesitate to put in a couple of extra weeks on documentation and bugfixing if it needs it (please email me if you would like to help with docs). There is still a lot of ground to cover but we are making rapid progress on it!
Hopefully everyone reading this is as excited as I am about this update! Be sure to go check out the awesome things that the game teams are doing with it in Fallen Empire: Legions
Fallen Empire: Legions
About the author
#62
Also, what's the difference in resolution between legacy tge terrain and the new clipmap enhanced legacy terrain? Any chance of seeing a screenshot specifically evidencing the gain?
This is all great news, hoping to see something soon so we can get our projects up to speed with this new release.
01/20/2008 (6:12 pm)
Sounds like a lot of the core of the engine structure will change with this release. How greatly will this affect projects that are in development with TGEA 1.0.3? Any sense of the amount of effort that will be needed to port existing projects? I understand this greatly depends on the amount of modification/changes in each specific project but any kind of information you could provide would help!Also, what's the difference in resolution between legacy tge terrain and the new clipmap enhanced legacy terrain? Any chance of seeing a screenshot specifically evidencing the gain?
This is all great news, hoping to see something soon so we can get our projects up to speed with this new release.
#63
01/21/2008 (12:03 am)
I have to ask, because I don't use MAC's so i have to know why anyone would want to program or develop games on a MAC? Is there some sort of advantage...dosnt seem to be any but like i said i don't know..any MAC users out there that can give me a good answer or two would be great, i dont plan on buying a MAC or even porting anygame im working on to the MAC platform, but mayby if i can see that MAC's are more than just a headache I might consider it..they seem ok if you are and end user Ive heard.., not sure why that is though:)hmmm....
#64
It sounds like that the Ben Garney's forest pack can be avaiable in new version of TGEA. I hope so. :-)
01/21/2008 (1:10 am)
Quote:
All the features of TGEA 1.0.3 PLUS 99% of TGE 1.5.2 PLUS:
It sounds like that the Ben Garney's forest pack can be avaiable in new version of TGEA. I hope so. :-)
#65
Now I can ask my wife for AFX as my birthday present :)
Luck!
Guimo
01/21/2008 (4:54 am)
Har Har!! Excellent timing!!! I was planning to start a project using TGE because I considered TGEA lacking in some fine details (like interaction with water) but now I have no objections. I really hope that this version includes fixes on buoyancy, splashes and the like that were missing in TGEA.Now I can ask my wife for AFX as my birthday present :)
Luck!
Guimo
#66
01/21/2008 (4:57 am)
And please please please... if you have some time left... try to create a solution for waves at shorelines ;)
#67
Does it means that TGEA projects will run on GMA950/965 integrated chipsets ?
And, Mac (and so OpenGL) support is mandatory for me to start using this product.
Why is the Mac version so late ?
Nicolas Buquet
www.buquet-net.com/cv/
01/21/2008 (8:52 am)
"# 3. All of the rendering objects should now support fixed function fallbacks for non-shadered video cards."Does it means that TGEA projects will run on GMA950/965 integrated chipsets ?
And, Mac (and so OpenGL) support is mandatory for me to start using this product.
Why is the Mac version so late ?
Nicolas Buquet
www.buquet-net.com/cv/
#68
This is awesome news indeed! I cannot wait to work with this new version and I know that our artists are absolutely going to love the multi terrain tile support! Hopefully the port to this version will not be too painful, but it sounds like it will be well worth it even if it is. Thanks again for all the hard work and commitment you guys put into the independent community!
01/21/2008 (4:14 pm)
Matt - On behalf of Black Skull Studios... WE LOVE YOU GUYS!!! This is awesome news indeed! I cannot wait to work with this new version and I know that our artists are absolutely going to love the multi terrain tile support! Hopefully the port to this version will not be too painful, but it sounds like it will be well worth it even if it is. Thanks again for all the hard work and commitment you guys put into the independent community!
#69
In order for something to be late it must be planned and thus scheduled. MAC and OpenGL support have had Neither.
01/21/2008 (5:13 pm)
@Nicolas:In order for something to be late it must be planned and thus scheduled. MAC and OpenGL support have had Neither.
#70
Because mac users exist.
If you want to get a piece of that market, then you have to support mac development. A lot of developers here obviously want a piece of that market, and so TGEA is useless to them.
I could go on a half hour diatribe explaining in more detail, but that's what it comes down to.
Gary (-;
01/21/2008 (6:48 pm)
Quote:I have to ask, because I don't use MAC's so i have to know why anyone would want to program or develop games on a MAC?
Because mac users exist.
If you want to get a piece of that market, then you have to support mac development. A lot of developers here obviously want a piece of that market, and so TGEA is useless to them.
I could go on a half hour diatribe explaining in more detail, but that's what it comes down to.
Gary (-;
#71
I'm also curious about this. D3D8 is *old*. DirectX 10 [.1+] is where it's officially at, and TGEA is intended to be a shiny new next-gen engine.
What would be the reason for GG to invest time developing for D3D8 [a dwindling market of people unlikely to be playing next-gen games], when they could have invested that same time in an OpenGL layer that would run on linux, osx, and windows-machines-with-busted-d3d-drivers? Instead of opening up new markets, GG spends time on markets that are dying by design. :confused:
Gary (-;
01/21/2008 (6:53 pm)
Quote:2. Major reworks of GFX layers and the addition of a D3D8 layer
I'm also curious about this. D3D8 is *old*. DirectX 10 [.1+] is where it's officially at, and TGEA is intended to be a shiny new next-gen engine.
What would be the reason for GG to invest time developing for D3D8 [a dwindling market of people unlikely to be playing next-gen games], when they could have invested that same time in an OpenGL layer that would run on linux, osx, and windows-machines-with-busted-d3d-drivers? Instead of opening up new markets, GG spends time on markets that are dying by design. :confused:
Gary (-;
#72
01/21/2008 (9:44 pm)
OpenGL and DirectX is merely a preference, or should be, i haven't seen a major reason why one is better than the other, ....i asked above perhaps you can answer what the big advantage of MAC or openGl is, because my neighbor has more problems with his MAC than I do with my PC or ever has...i really want to know a few opinions on this but facts would be great too:) i know I want an engine that supports old and new tech, and then Non-Mainstream computers and such later... 
#73
01/21/2008 (10:45 pm)
OpenGL support will leave more opputunities for developing for Linux, or Mac. and more Importantly, development for the PS3. Unfortuantly. PS3 doesnt use normal OpenGL. they use OpenGL ES 2.0. so I think the reason they havnt spent much time developing an OpenGL or Mac version of TGEA is because 90% of the current market on Computer Games are on PC. Hence no reason to focus on that other 10%. And I think the reason why TGE is still popular, is because of the fact that it supports OpenGL/Mac Support, which i think Torque Wii is based on.
#74
I still think that the same idea could be managed by using D3D9 but maybe GG engineers didnt want to change or break the current D3D9 layer architecture just to add some features that might not be used in a shader based engine.
Besides, having a new layer is interesting, it shows that the GFX architecture in fact can be extended for new API support. Also I guess that in the process many features have been included and bugs have been fixed so now GFX is a more standarized interface which may eventually lead to a OGL solution. Who knows someone may start playing and create a SW renderer.
Luck!
Guimo
01/21/2008 (11:16 pm)
I guess the D3D8 layer is meant for older videocard (preshader) support or mobo integrated video which cannot handle shaders that well. Remember that current GG objective is to target 'gap' games that will deliver using an internet browser and target the average player, not only core gamers.I still think that the same idea could be managed by using D3D9 but maybe GG engineers didnt want to change or break the current D3D9 layer architecture just to add some features that might not be used in a shader based engine.
Besides, having a new layer is interesting, it shows that the GFX architecture in fact can be extended for new API support. Also I guess that in the process many features have been included and bugs have been fixed so now GFX is a more standarized interface which may eventually lead to a OGL solution. Who knows someone may start playing and create a SW renderer.
Luck!
Guimo
#75
01/22/2008 (12:32 am)
I was wondering if 'tsstatic' shapes will be able to self shadow and cast shadows on other tsstatic shapes with this upgrade. I've been using polysoup collision in TGEA 1.0.3 and I definitely miss the lightmaps but it is great being able to model everything in max. Maybe I'll have to become more familiar with Max's render to texture function...
#76
It makes me sad to see Torque moving away from OpenGL in particular because it IS the cross platform standard. Standards are what ensure future opportunities versus tying oneself down to one technology. The very fact that TGE has always been able to run on Mac and Linux is what has kept me here.
Some things to consider when it comes to technology:
1. Nearly every mobile phone will be running Linux is the next 5 years. I read this in a popular trade magazine for electronic design.
2. Microsoft has finally realized Linux is NOT going away. They are now profiting from Linux. This is a good thing for everyone.
3. Low end computers (regardless of having 3d accelerators) in foreign countries are and will be running Linux. This is a huge global market opportunity especially for 2d games and eventually 3d games. Just think if a game could be sold to 1 billion Asians at 1 dollar a piece. This will happen and soon.
4. Cost of entry in rapidly getting smaller and smaller. How many flash games are there? I am guessing hundreds of thousands at least. Maybe more.
Prediction:
In the next five years games for *nix based platforms (Linux, BSD, Mac) will be a hot market.
It just may not be on your PC, it may be a MMORPG played from your cell phone. The chips are coming, the operating system is ready, the door is about to open...
01/22/2008 (3:42 am)
No OpenGL and no Mac = no LinuxIt makes me sad to see Torque moving away from OpenGL in particular because it IS the cross platform standard. Standards are what ensure future opportunities versus tying oneself down to one technology. The very fact that TGE has always been able to run on Mac and Linux is what has kept me here.
Some things to consider when it comes to technology:
1. Nearly every mobile phone will be running Linux is the next 5 years. I read this in a popular trade magazine for electronic design.
2. Microsoft has finally realized Linux is NOT going away. They are now profiting from Linux. This is a good thing for everyone.
3. Low end computers (regardless of having 3d accelerators) in foreign countries are and will be running Linux. This is a huge global market opportunity especially for 2d games and eventually 3d games. Just think if a game could be sold to 1 billion Asians at 1 dollar a piece. This will happen and soon.
4. Cost of entry in rapidly getting smaller and smaller. How many flash games are there? I am guessing hundreds of thousands at least. Maybe more.
Prediction:
In the next five years games for *nix based platforms (Linux, BSD, Mac) will be a hot market.
It just may not be on your PC, it may be a MMORPG played from your cell phone. The chips are coming, the operating system is ready, the door is about to open...
#77
I could not agree more, but Im sure that when GG is taking in more profits and get to a point where they can afford to throw in what the other 10% need they will, they seem good like that:)
01/22/2008 (1:54 pm)
"so I think the reason they haven't spent much time developing an OpenGL or Mac version of TGEA is because 90% of the current market on Computer Games are on PC."I could not agree more, but Im sure that when GG is taking in more profits and get to a point where they can afford to throw in what the other 10% need they will, they seem good like that:)
#78
I wish I could take credit for this, but I had nothing to do with it other than moral support. And my morals are rather lacking, so I'm not sure how much support I gave!
@Bobby Leighton
Because the Mac market is very hungry for games, which makes it an excellent target market for indies. It can be a negligible market for shelf targeting publishers since there is relatively no shelf-space to Mac versions (though Blizzard has done extremely well with their Mac/PC hybrids). But it is an excellent target market for Indies. If you're making a game as a pitch-title for EA, then you're probably not going to benefit much from it, but if you are relying on portals and individual web sales, it can be huge. I believe Josh has stated a number of times that Minions of Mirth has around 50% of his sales on the Mac, and I think it's doing okay for an indie game... ;)
01/22/2008 (5:51 pm)
@James DunlapI wish I could take credit for this, but I had nothing to do with it other than moral support. And my morals are rather lacking, so I'm not sure how much support I gave!
@Bobby Leighton
Quote:I have to ask, because I don't use MAC's so i have to know why anyone would want to program or develop games on a MAC? Is there some sort of advantage...dosnt seem to be any but like i said i don't know..any MAC users out there that can give me a good answer or two would be great, i dont plan on buying a MAC or even porting anygame im working on to the MAC platform, but mayby if i can see that MAC's are more than just a headache I might consider it..they seem ok if you are and end user Ive heard.., not sure why that is though:)hmmm....
Because the Mac market is very hungry for games, which makes it an excellent target market for indies. It can be a negligible market for shelf targeting publishers since there is relatively no shelf-space to Mac versions (though Blizzard has done extremely well with their Mac/PC hybrids). But it is an excellent target market for Indies. If you're making a game as a pitch-title for EA, then you're probably not going to benefit much from it, but if you are relying on portals and individual web sales, it can be huge. I believe Josh has stated a number of times that Minions of Mirth has around 50% of his sales on the Mac, and I think it's doing okay for an indie game... ;)
#79
We currently have people actively working on OpenGL and Mac support for our next generation engine (what we've been calling Torque 2).
This is driven both by our desire to deliver OpenGL to Torque users AND so that we can deliver our games to Mac users. Will it get done at some point? It'd better! However, there is still a lot of tricky work involved in adding OpenGL AND getting it running on the Mac and that means there is a very high probability that the OpenGL implemenation will be forced to slip more than a few times off any estimate we could give. We don't have a solid deadline on when anything will be ready for release and we don't want to set any false expectations otherwise.
GG Studios (the game teams) are burning the midnight oil trying to get several new games out the door. Getting these games running on Macs should provide a base level of work that can be applied directly to Torque products, but even still, we're talking about a non-trivial amount of work. Next gen versions of Torque will almost certainly have Mac support and as the engine teams makes strides in that direction, we'll look at every opportunity to implement increased functionality in TGEA. This update brings TGEA very closely in line with the bleeding edge of our new engine, but if OpenGL support doesn't arrive until later in the new engine's dev cycle, it honestly might not make sense to implement OpenGL support at all in TGEA. Instead we'd let our next generation engine be our answer for those who need OpenGL and Mac support and we could better focus on delivering other beneficial features and improvements (better documentation and tools for example).
There will not be OpenGL in the next update to TGEA. At this point I am hesitant to say that it will ever be included in a future update, so we are taking the stance that TGEA owners should plan for the near-term to work without it. I *fully* understand this is a disappointment for some people. As much as GarageGames tries to do, we're only human and there's only so much we can deliver. If you truly feel like you were misled with "promises of OpenGL" and you want to revoke your license to use TGEA, I will stand by Joe's previous offer of a full refund.
01/22/2008 (6:45 pm)
Since there still seem to be a number of open questions and confusion around OpenGL, let me see if I can make it clear:We currently have people actively working on OpenGL and Mac support for our next generation engine (what we've been calling Torque 2).
This is driven both by our desire to deliver OpenGL to Torque users AND so that we can deliver our games to Mac users. Will it get done at some point? It'd better! However, there is still a lot of tricky work involved in adding OpenGL AND getting it running on the Mac and that means there is a very high probability that the OpenGL implemenation will be forced to slip more than a few times off any estimate we could give. We don't have a solid deadline on when anything will be ready for release and we don't want to set any false expectations otherwise.
GG Studios (the game teams) are burning the midnight oil trying to get several new games out the door. Getting these games running on Macs should provide a base level of work that can be applied directly to Torque products, but even still, we're talking about a non-trivial amount of work. Next gen versions of Torque will almost certainly have Mac support and as the engine teams makes strides in that direction, we'll look at every opportunity to implement increased functionality in TGEA. This update brings TGEA very closely in line with the bleeding edge of our new engine, but if OpenGL support doesn't arrive until later in the new engine's dev cycle, it honestly might not make sense to implement OpenGL support at all in TGEA. Instead we'd let our next generation engine be our answer for those who need OpenGL and Mac support and we could better focus on delivering other beneficial features and improvements (better documentation and tools for example).
There will not be OpenGL in the next update to TGEA. At this point I am hesitant to say that it will ever be included in a future update, so we are taking the stance that TGEA owners should plan for the near-term to work without it. I *fully* understand this is a disappointment for some people. As much as GarageGames tries to do, we're only human and there's only so much we can deliver. If you truly feel like you were misled with "promises of OpenGL" and you want to revoke your license to use TGEA, I will stand by Joe's previous offer of a full refund.
#80
TGEA has yet to reach its full potential. That is precisely why we have been doing this work. We have more resources at our disposal, but they're still far from unlimited. We are doing our best to listen to our users and community and to address their concerns.
Honestly, at this point we aren't asking for you to lose your skepticism. We saw the announcement of Fallen Empire: Legions as a great opportunity to start telling you guys about the tech it was built on and how we plan to deliver that to you! We also knew that there was a growing concecrn that TGEA was no longer going to get any work and wanted to lay that rumor to rest. I do hope that when you get your hands on this update it will help to alleviate your concerns.
Guimo hit the nail pretty precisely on the head!
According to the latest Valve Hardware Survey, there are still some 125,000+ of their users (which are decidedly slanted towards top-end FPS gaming) who are still using their DirectX 8 pipeline. Also consider that Juggernaut (not the TGEA update) includes TGB and the VAST majority of the users in the casual and 2D game space are using DirectX 8 or hardware that is only capable of running DirectX 8. That is not an inconsiderable number salesbase for an indie game and it would be foolish to give that up! Since we already have a DirectX 9 layer it was pretty trivial to bring a DirectX 8 layer up to speed and it helped us immensely to better flesh out a multiple GFX layer interface. DX8 vs OpenGL is a false choice. It wasn't one or the other and DX8 did not delay the OpenGL work in any way.
01/22/2008 (6:56 pm)
Quote:With all due respect, this is what TGEA should have been in the first place.
TGEA has yet to reach its full potential. That is precisely why we have been doing this work. We have more resources at our disposal, but they're still far from unlimited. We are doing our best to listen to our users and community and to address their concerns.
Quote:what has changed with GG that would convince me to loose my skepticism?
Honestly, at this point we aren't asking for you to lose your skepticism. We saw the announcement of Fallen Empire: Legions as a great opportunity to start telling you guys about the tech it was built on and how we plan to deliver that to you! We also knew that there was a growing concecrn that TGEA was no longer going to get any work and wanted to lay that rumor to rest. I do hope that when you get your hands on this update it will help to alleviate your concerns.
Quote:What would be the reason for GG to invest time developing for D3D8, when they could have invested that same time in an OpenGL layer
Guimo hit the nail pretty precisely on the head!
According to the latest Valve Hardware Survey, there are still some 125,000+ of their users (which are decidedly slanted towards top-end FPS gaming) who are still using their DirectX 8 pipeline. Also consider that Juggernaut (not the TGEA update) includes TGB and the VAST majority of the users in the casual and 2D game space are using DirectX 8 or hardware that is only capable of running DirectX 8. That is not an inconsiderable number salesbase for an indie game and it would be foolish to give that up! Since we already have a DirectX 9 layer it was pretty trivial to bring a DirectX 8 layer up to speed and it helped us immensely to better flesh out a multiple GFX layer interface. DX8 vs OpenGL is a false choice. It wasn't one or the other and DX8 did not delay the OpenGL work in any way.
Torque Owner Andrea
GREAT NEWS !!!
I want it !!!!
:-P