Transparent Development, Torque 2, and You!
by Stephen Zepp · 10/18/2007 (5:26 am) · 122 comments
There has been some buzz floating around since IGC this year, and a lot of it has been around InstantAction, but we also announced a couple of additional topics that are starting to sink in, so I wanted to dive in to the deep end of the community pool and make some waves....
Transparent Development
Sounds nifty, but what is it? One analogy I've heard that is a pretty solid description is consider TD a window into the offices of the development staff working on Torque 2--see what's being worked on this week, read discussions about designs as they are being discussed internally, and most importantly be able to discuss the designs and implementations themselves, as they occur.
We're not talking marketing information for a product that has already been developed--we're talking watching, and even being able to discuss and provide feedback on the development of Torque 2 as it occurs. I'll get to Torque 2 in a moment, but I want to reinforce that this is a fundamental shift back to the way GarageGames used to interact with the community--away from keeping completely silent regarding what we're working on and why, and back to giving the community rapid and fully packed pages of information on the development as it occurs--not after the fact, and especially not after it's released. Torque 2 isn't even scheduled for beta until well in to 2008, but we're working as rapidly as we can to get infrastructure in place to set up discussions as the engine team works on development.
We're talking roadmaps, milestone lists, design write ups, expected work flow and implementation standards, the works--all up front, all the time. One of the projects that I am working on right now is designing a new set of forums, wiki, and related web tools to manage extensive and extended data flow between the Transparent Development Community (that's you guys) and the engine development team (that's us!). Once this infrastructure is in place, we're going to open it up for communication purposes to a limited set of users for beta testing for a few weeks, and then we will make the information available to all.
[edit: see below in the comments section for further clarification on content and timing]
It's going to be several weeks yet before this infrastructure is ready, and it will be a few weeks of beta testing of that infrastructure as well before we're ready to turn on the fire hose, so please be patient while we get things set up for this to work in the long term--when it's ready, we'll let everyone know and let the show begin!
I do want to make something fundamentally clear from the beginning (and trust me, I'll keep pressing this point until it sinks in fully!): Torque 2 development will be an iterative process, very similar to the SCRUM, or Agile/Spiral Development models--and one of the key aspects of this style of development is that sometimes you go down a path, and it turns out that the path is not the best solution. When this occurs, the best course of action is simply to cut out the results of that development spiral, and reset your project expectations. Sometimes this means removing features, adjusting the milestone list, or delaying (or in some cases even canceling) entire systems.
It is critical that the entire Transparent Development Community understand that this development process you will be watching and discussing is a fluid one--and it should be fully expected that features and systems being discussed one week may very well end up being cut forever the next. No projects, games, and especially no funds or contracts should ever be committed during this development process--if you need to make commitments or financial decisions regarding your projects, then the Torque 2 Transparent Development Community is absolutely not somewhere you should be.
Torque 2
So what's Torque 2? To put it simply, Torque 2 is a ground up re-factor of the entire architecture of all of our engines into a new engine with some pretty amazing architecture and features. We've learned quite a bit over the last several years of engine development, and the time has come to take those lessons and build a new engine that not only provides the maximum flexibility possible to game developers, but fundamentally change many of the designs of the engine itself--correcting design assumptions and work flows that came about over the years that we ourselves find too restrictive, and along the way providing customization and feature enhancement capabilities that were never available before.
Torque 2's fundamental changes fall under three primary areas:
Modularity of Systems: In the past, it was very difficult to leverage into Torque systems, libraries, and raw code written by 3rd parties, such as ODE/Havoc/PhysX Physics, alternate scripting languages such as Lua, Python, and even .NET languages, and many other cool things that are available to game developers. Torque is extremely integrated, with each of the systems tightly coupled to provide a powerful, but ultimately restrictive engine when it comes to "mashing up" other solutions into a coherent whole--and Torque 2 is designed from scratch to correct those issues by allowing game developers to replace major system modules in a "plug and play" style--as long as the external systems match interfaces that the Torque 2 framework expects, you will be able to use just about any 3rd party (or self-developed) system within the core Torque 2 framework.
Abstraction and Interfaces: One of the key ways we will be able to provide this type of "swap out" modularity is by abstracting most of the core systems via the use of interfaces. Each major system will describe a set of interfaces that other systems and objects will use to communicate with the system, so instead of calling code directly within a system, external modules and objects will interact with the interfaces that system exposes--allowing other systems to replace core modules at the whim of the developer.
Torque 2 has already leveraged the previously developed GFX abstraction layer present in TGE-A, and in addition has had several iterations of abstraction of core systems as well, such as the sound layer (now abstracted through a new SFX system), lighting (fully abstracted into a separate module), collision and physics (currently under iterative refactoring towards a comprehensive interface), and many others. As the iterative development spirals of Torque 2 continue, additional systems will be abstracted and interfaces implemented for even more comprehensive modularity.
Components: The concept of a component based architecture is actually very simple--but it has some far reaching design implications, and in many cases can take some time to adapt towards. In most game engines, including Torque, you have a very deep set of classes that form a pretty static ancestry, and you use inheritance of all of these classes in your game object level classes. Unfortunately, this has several issues that become more apparent the longer you use these classes for development, especially across multiple games: your game object classes start becoming more and more bloated, and less appropriate for specific uses. Anyone that takes a good look at the Torque ShapeBase class will soon see what I mean--there are still left over methods in the ShapeBase class that are part of original Tribes code, and aren't particularly useful for most games.
Here's an example of exactly what I mean: Back when BraveTree was working on their environment pack, one of the neat things they wanted to have was butterflies with random movement about the scene. Pretty nifty stuff--they derived a new class off of ShapeBase, and their butterflies merrily wandered about the stronghold mission randomly--until one of them happened to run in to a crossbow object placed in the scene.
Suddenly, this tiny little butterfly picks up this huge crossbow, and starts swinging it back and forth madly as it continues to wander about--merrily meandering about the scene with a totally unexpected weapon of mass destruction dangling from its cute little mandibles.
It was immediately obvious what was going on, and as soon as they picked themselves up from off the floor and stopped laughing, they realized that since the butterfly inherited from ShapeBase, it also inherited the ability to collide with Items, and mount weapons--and that's exactly what it did!
So what does this have to do with components? Well, with the idea of components (based on the Object Oriented Programming concept of aggregation, sometimes called composition), instead of inheriting a series of ever more complex functionalities that your particular object may not need, you create very small units of functionality that accomplish simple tasks--and "build" your game objects from these little components. In the case of the butterfly, they might have added a render3D component, a collision3D component, a hoverFlightMovement component, and a AIRandomMove3D component--and thereby had all the functionality they needed for the butterfly, without any of the bloat that inheriting from a full class would have given them.
We'll be covering components in quite a bit more depth once the Transparent Development Community is in place, but if you are interested in learning more about how component based game development works, TorqueX also uses components, and is a great place to learn how the new design concepts can be used.
What this means for You
Well, the very first thing it means is not a lot to be honest--this is an announcement of a new development style (transparency), and a new engine that is just now entering heavy development. Torque 2 is not going to be ready for use in a major (or even minor) game project until sometime in 2008 (more accurate time line will come when we get more iteration cycles finished up). If you are currently working on a game with Torque (or another engine), or are planning on starting a new project in the next 6 to 9 months, Torque 2 is not for you at this time.
If you are someone that is interested in how an engine is developed, and want to participate in discussions of that development process as it occurs, stay tuned for further announcements about the Transparent Development Community. Once it opens to the public stop on by and hang out--at the least it should be educational and informative, and hopefully some of you might even generate ideas, designs, and implementations that may very well be factored in to the future of Torque.
I'm already well over my word count for a .blog, so I'll answer specific questions in the comment area below.
Transparent Development
Sounds nifty, but what is it? One analogy I've heard that is a pretty solid description is consider TD a window into the offices of the development staff working on Torque 2--see what's being worked on this week, read discussions about designs as they are being discussed internally, and most importantly be able to discuss the designs and implementations themselves, as they occur.
We're not talking marketing information for a product that has already been developed--we're talking watching, and even being able to discuss and provide feedback on the development of Torque 2 as it occurs. I'll get to Torque 2 in a moment, but I want to reinforce that this is a fundamental shift back to the way GarageGames used to interact with the community--away from keeping completely silent regarding what we're working on and why, and back to giving the community rapid and fully packed pages of information on the development as it occurs--not after the fact, and especially not after it's released. Torque 2 isn't even scheduled for beta until well in to 2008, but we're working as rapidly as we can to get infrastructure in place to set up discussions as the engine team works on development.
We're talking roadmaps, milestone lists, design write ups, expected work flow and implementation standards, the works--all up front, all the time. One of the projects that I am working on right now is designing a new set of forums, wiki, and related web tools to manage extensive and extended data flow between the Transparent Development Community (that's you guys) and the engine development team (that's us!). Once this infrastructure is in place, we're going to open it up for communication purposes to a limited set of users for beta testing for a few weeks, and then we will make the information available to all.
[edit: see below in the comments section for further clarification on content and timing]
It's going to be several weeks yet before this infrastructure is ready, and it will be a few weeks of beta testing of that infrastructure as well before we're ready to turn on the fire hose, so please be patient while we get things set up for this to work in the long term--when it's ready, we'll let everyone know and let the show begin!
I do want to make something fundamentally clear from the beginning (and trust me, I'll keep pressing this point until it sinks in fully!): Torque 2 development will be an iterative process, very similar to the SCRUM, or Agile/Spiral Development models--and one of the key aspects of this style of development is that sometimes you go down a path, and it turns out that the path is not the best solution. When this occurs, the best course of action is simply to cut out the results of that development spiral, and reset your project expectations. Sometimes this means removing features, adjusting the milestone list, or delaying (or in some cases even canceling) entire systems.It is critical that the entire Transparent Development Community understand that this development process you will be watching and discussing is a fluid one--and it should be fully expected that features and systems being discussed one week may very well end up being cut forever the next. No projects, games, and especially no funds or contracts should ever be committed during this development process--if you need to make commitments or financial decisions regarding your projects, then the Torque 2 Transparent Development Community is absolutely not somewhere you should be.
Torque 2
So what's Torque 2? To put it simply, Torque 2 is a ground up re-factor of the entire architecture of all of our engines into a new engine with some pretty amazing architecture and features. We've learned quite a bit over the last several years of engine development, and the time has come to take those lessons and build a new engine that not only provides the maximum flexibility possible to game developers, but fundamentally change many of the designs of the engine itself--correcting design assumptions and work flows that came about over the years that we ourselves find too restrictive, and along the way providing customization and feature enhancement capabilities that were never available before.
Torque 2's fundamental changes fall under three primary areas:Modularity of Systems: In the past, it was very difficult to leverage into Torque systems, libraries, and raw code written by 3rd parties, such as ODE/Havoc/PhysX Physics, alternate scripting languages such as Lua, Python, and even .NET languages, and many other cool things that are available to game developers. Torque is extremely integrated, with each of the systems tightly coupled to provide a powerful, but ultimately restrictive engine when it comes to "mashing up" other solutions into a coherent whole--and Torque 2 is designed from scratch to correct those issues by allowing game developers to replace major system modules in a "plug and play" style--as long as the external systems match interfaces that the Torque 2 framework expects, you will be able to use just about any 3rd party (or self-developed) system within the core Torque 2 framework.
Abstraction and Interfaces: One of the key ways we will be able to provide this type of "swap out" modularity is by abstracting most of the core systems via the use of interfaces. Each major system will describe a set of interfaces that other systems and objects will use to communicate with the system, so instead of calling code directly within a system, external modules and objects will interact with the interfaces that system exposes--allowing other systems to replace core modules at the whim of the developer.
Torque 2 has already leveraged the previously developed GFX abstraction layer present in TGE-A, and in addition has had several iterations of abstraction of core systems as well, such as the sound layer (now abstracted through a new SFX system), lighting (fully abstracted into a separate module), collision and physics (currently under iterative refactoring towards a comprehensive interface), and many others. As the iterative development spirals of Torque 2 continue, additional systems will be abstracted and interfaces implemented for even more comprehensive modularity.
Components: The concept of a component based architecture is actually very simple--but it has some far reaching design implications, and in many cases can take some time to adapt towards. In most game engines, including Torque, you have a very deep set of classes that form a pretty static ancestry, and you use inheritance of all of these classes in your game object level classes. Unfortunately, this has several issues that become more apparent the longer you use these classes for development, especially across multiple games: your game object classes start becoming more and more bloated, and less appropriate for specific uses. Anyone that takes a good look at the Torque ShapeBase class will soon see what I mean--there are still left over methods in the ShapeBase class that are part of original Tribes code, and aren't particularly useful for most games.Here's an example of exactly what I mean: Back when BraveTree was working on their environment pack, one of the neat things they wanted to have was butterflies with random movement about the scene. Pretty nifty stuff--they derived a new class off of ShapeBase, and their butterflies merrily wandered about the stronghold mission randomly--until one of them happened to run in to a crossbow object placed in the scene.Suddenly, this tiny little butterfly picks up this huge crossbow, and starts swinging it back and forth madly as it continues to wander about--merrily meandering about the scene with a totally unexpected weapon of mass destruction dangling from its cute little mandibles.It was immediately obvious what was going on, and as soon as they picked themselves up from off the floor and stopped laughing, they realized that since the butterfly inherited from ShapeBase, it also inherited the ability to collide with Items, and mount weapons--and that's exactly what it did!
So what does this have to do with components? Well, with the idea of components (based on the Object Oriented Programming concept of aggregation, sometimes called composition), instead of inheriting a series of ever more complex functionalities that your particular object may not need, you create very small units of functionality that accomplish simple tasks--and "build" your game objects from these little components. In the case of the butterfly, they might have added a render3D component, a collision3D component, a hoverFlightMovement component, and a AIRandomMove3D component--and thereby had all the functionality they needed for the butterfly, without any of the bloat that inheriting from a full class would have given them.
We'll be covering components in quite a bit more depth once the Transparent Development Community is in place, but if you are interested in learning more about how component based game development works, TorqueX also uses components, and is a great place to learn how the new design concepts can be used.
What this means for You
Well, the very first thing it means is not a lot to be honest--this is an announcement of a new development style (transparency), and a new engine that is just now entering heavy development. Torque 2 is not going to be ready for use in a major (or even minor) game project until sometime in 2008 (more accurate time line will come when we get more iteration cycles finished up). If you are currently working on a game with Torque (or another engine), or are planning on starting a new project in the next 6 to 9 months, Torque 2 is not for you at this time.
If you are someone that is interested in how an engine is developed, and want to participate in discussions of that development process as it occurs, stay tuned for further announcements about the Transparent Development Community. Once it opens to the public stop on by and hang out--at the least it should be educational and informative, and hopefully some of you might even generate ideas, designs, and implementations that may very well be factored in to the future of Torque.
I'm already well over my word count for a .blog, so I'll answer specific questions in the comment area below.
#82
Nintendo Wii
Xbox 360
Sony PlayStation 2
Sony PSP
Microsoft Xbox
Nintendo GameCube
PC
Sony PlayStation 3
I dont work on the programing side of things on this project but I know that the guys that are seem pretty content with it. I know that it has some kind point an click scripting accoarding to the website that is supposed to amke it easier for not coders to make stuff. The only other engine that I know of that is taking this apporach wher eyou code overything once and then just select a platform and hit compile is id's Tech 5 butthat is going to cost you your first born I'm sure.
It is nice to see that all of this legacy stuff is finally being gotten rid of in the new engines, and here at GG. This is the day that Game artist have dreamed of for a very, very long time.
I hope that GG pays close attention to the new artist tools that they have made for Tech 5 and tries to make some of these systems for Torque 2. "Mega-Texture" is just plain awsome!
If you have not seen the id Tech 5 Tech preivew you can see it here
Basicly the geometry boundries still exist "polycount" but you can have as much texture detail as you want without ever impacting the performance. They show a level that has like 20-60Gb of textures. It is the ultimate artists engine.
10/24/2007 (2:36 pm)
Yeah the only Engine that I know of that is a complete solution is Vicious Engine. I'm working on a XBLA Project right now that is using it. It has a Code ones thing and then you just tell it what platform to compile for and it supports everything but the DS right now. There is just a little drop down list where you select the platform and compile the following are currently supported.Nintendo Wii
Xbox 360
Sony PlayStation 2
Sony PSP
Microsoft Xbox
Nintendo GameCube
PC
Sony PlayStation 3
I dont work on the programing side of things on this project but I know that the guys that are seem pretty content with it. I know that it has some kind point an click scripting accoarding to the website that is supposed to amke it easier for not coders to make stuff. The only other engine that I know of that is taking this apporach wher eyou code overything once and then just select a platform and hit compile is id's Tech 5 butthat is going to cost you your first born I'm sure.
It is nice to see that all of this legacy stuff is finally being gotten rid of in the new engines, and here at GG. This is the day that Game artist have dreamed of for a very, very long time.
I hope that GG pays close attention to the new artist tools that they have made for Tech 5 and tries to make some of these systems for Torque 2. "Mega-Texture" is just plain awsome!
If you have not seen the id Tech 5 Tech preivew you can see it here
Basicly the geometry boundries still exist "polycount" but you can have as much texture detail as you want without ever impacting the performance. They show a level that has like 20-60Gb of textures. It is the ultimate artists engine.
#83
I'd use Unity in a hearbeat if it worked for the PC... i'm not a mac guy and don't want to buy a new computer just to create a hobby game... would love to use it though - you are right - that's what I'm talking about!
10/26/2007 (12:27 pm)
Quote:Unity?
I'd use Unity in a hearbeat if it worked for the PC... i'm not a mac guy and don't want to buy a new computer just to create a hobby game... would love to use it though - you are right - that's what I'm talking about!
#84
10/26/2007 (12:37 pm)
I just named Unity because you asked for a complete dev environment and Unity more or less the only (indy!) one to my knowledge that comes close. Personally I'm currently switching to the Mac to have support for all platforms and develop mainly then on the Mac. Go have a look at the Macs! ;-)))
#85
I just prefer windows.
10/26/2007 (1:00 pm)
I own 2 of them lol. I use them for compatibility testing and for when someone brings me a project done in final cut pro.I just prefer windows.
#86
Please also think about integration some real nice editors. I am pretty spoiled by the mod stuff that is flying around (FarCry, TitanQuest, NeverwinterNights, ...). Asset pipeline first. How do you get the stuff into the engine is more important than tech candy.
I hope you think of a nice scheme to allow existing users to migrate in an economic way.
Actually I am all for modules etc. But at the moment I am near to categorize my Torque experience as just bad, messy and a waste of time. And announcements like this one are not making it any better.
But by all means count me in. The tech nerd in me likes to play around with new stuff.
10/30/2007 (9:16 am)
Thanks for the information. Nice to know I bought a engine thats obsolete and has a documentation that's a mess and won't improve, because you do other things now. So please in future really think about getting the documentation up in parallel and try some thinking about your customer. You want to sell that stuff, right ?Please also think about integration some real nice editors. I am pretty spoiled by the mod stuff that is flying around (FarCry, TitanQuest, NeverwinterNights, ...). Asset pipeline first. How do you get the stuff into the engine is more important than tech candy.
I hope you think of a nice scheme to allow existing users to migrate in an economic way.
Actually I am all for modules etc. But at the moment I am near to categorize my Torque experience as just bad, messy and a waste of time. And announcements like this one are not making it any better.
But by all means count me in. The tech nerd in me likes to play around with new stuff.
#88
Yeah this is somthing that id has obviously learned and Epic has know for a long time. all the game play and code in the world doesn't mean squat if you game looks like crap! If it looks like crap people aren't gonna give it time of day.
It is just business. a game may be crap but if it looks awsome people will still buy it it. They may be disapointed but they will still by it and chances are you will make enough to make a better one next time. Hoever if you have a game with good game pplay let say but it looks like crap. Well they are just gonna go look at something else. It is best to have both dont get me wrong. Great games will kepp them there but it is the great artwork that get them there in the first place. In My option the original Far Cry was a perfect example of this the Game looked phenomenal! and the tools for it were so simple and easy to use. so I bought it. Personally I thought the game play was a little on the lame side and pretty repetitive. But I bought it becasue it looked like it was awesome! dont get me wrong I'm not saying that it is ok to release crap that looks pretty just saying that a game that may not have the best game play but has great are will still sell better than one that look like crap and has great game play. Pretty pictures and good marketing can sell just about anything these days.
If any GG product is ever going to succeed in the modern market place it need to have a art pipline on par with Unreal Engine, Tech 5, or CryEngine. These are perfect examples of what an art pipline for an engine should be.
Oh yeah and the documentation for them is simple and very thurough.
It is my belief that GG finally realizes this and that this is where they are headed.
10/30/2007 (1:27 pm)
@Dragica Kahlina :Yeah this is somthing that id has obviously learned and Epic has know for a long time. all the game play and code in the world doesn't mean squat if you game looks like crap! If it looks like crap people aren't gonna give it time of day.
It is just business. a game may be crap but if it looks awsome people will still buy it it. They may be disapointed but they will still by it and chances are you will make enough to make a better one next time. Hoever if you have a game with good game pplay let say but it looks like crap. Well they are just gonna go look at something else. It is best to have both dont get me wrong. Great games will kepp them there but it is the great artwork that get them there in the first place. In My option the original Far Cry was a perfect example of this the Game looked phenomenal! and the tools for it were so simple and easy to use. so I bought it. Personally I thought the game play was a little on the lame side and pretty repetitive. But I bought it becasue it looked like it was awesome! dont get me wrong I'm not saying that it is ok to release crap that looks pretty just saying that a game that may not have the best game play but has great are will still sell better than one that look like crap and has great game play. Pretty pictures and good marketing can sell just about anything these days.
If any GG product is ever going to succeed in the modern market place it need to have a art pipline on par with Unreal Engine, Tech 5, or CryEngine. These are perfect examples of what an art pipline for an engine should be.
Oh yeah and the documentation for them is simple and very thurough.
It is my belief that GG finally realizes this and that this is where they are headed.
#89
Before buying an engine you have to look for a minimum of information on it, and it will only be outdated depending on the use you want to do.
TGE is still a valid engine, with known limitations; and with appropriate graphics and design it can make kick arss games.
10/30/2007 (1:39 pm)
@Dragica: so far your profile isn't showing you are a SDK owner; which obsolete engine have you bought?Before buying an engine you have to look for a minimum of information on it, and it will only be outdated depending on the use you want to do.
TGE is still a valid engine, with known limitations; and with appropriate graphics and design it can make kick arss games.
#90
10/30/2007 (3:05 pm)
@Stephan (viKKing) Bondier : I have bought the TGEA engine. And almost every engine is outdated in the moment their developer explains to you that he has this new engine with totally different architecture in the working. Because they will from now on concentrate on the new one and the good people will want to work there. So no more real development on TGEA and it could use some, if it had a good documentation and a well rounded feeling I would not care less. I am a programmer and I have worked in game development, my world view in this respect is cynic, pessimistic and mostly true.
#91
10/31/2007 (3:31 pm)
that is odd every other person that has bought it it says so in their profile.
#92
Surely you guys KNOW that the whole T2 news is only confirming what many of us have known for a long time? The whole TSE development stopped a LONG time ago, and what many of us are left with is a complete mess of an engine that we paid money for, in good faith with the promise of fixed features, addition of missing features and so on. But more fool us for paying for something that we weren't actually getting straight away. Caveat emptor eh?
I'm not expecting miracles for the few hundred dollars I have spent on your products, but I do expect you to stick true to you word. Not give up development when it starts getting a "bit difficult" and then announce a completely new engine, that we'll have to pay for yet again.
And what are the bets that you're going to be selling early adopter versions of this new wonder engine? I got suckered by that the first time around with TSE, and that is not going to happen again!
And to think just at the beginning of this week, before I read about T2, I was reccomending to my boss that we should think about using Torque, given that it gives us similar code bases across pc and console platforms. I said "well...development on the pc engine seems to be slow right now, but I'm sure it'll pick up in the near future and we can share assets and code on pc and console platforms since they seem to have xb360 engine and are moving into Wii dev too"
Boy, do I ever feel dumb now when I go into work tomorrow and say "you know how I was really hyping up the Troque engine. Forget it, I don't know what I'm talking about."
11/01/2007 (6:07 pm)
I have to say, I've been a strong supporter of GG for quite a while. That is, right up until this point in time.Surely you guys KNOW that the whole T2 news is only confirming what many of us have known for a long time? The whole TSE development stopped a LONG time ago, and what many of us are left with is a complete mess of an engine that we paid money for, in good faith with the promise of fixed features, addition of missing features and so on. But more fool us for paying for something that we weren't actually getting straight away. Caveat emptor eh?
I'm not expecting miracles for the few hundred dollars I have spent on your products, but I do expect you to stick true to you word. Not give up development when it starts getting a "bit difficult" and then announce a completely new engine, that we'll have to pay for yet again.
And what are the bets that you're going to be selling early adopter versions of this new wonder engine? I got suckered by that the first time around with TSE, and that is not going to happen again!
And to think just at the beginning of this week, before I read about T2, I was reccomending to my boss that we should think about using Torque, given that it gives us similar code bases across pc and console platforms. I said "well...development on the pc engine seems to be slow right now, but I'm sure it'll pick up in the near future and we can share assets and code on pc and console platforms since they seem to have xb360 engine and are moving into Wii dev too"
Boy, do I ever feel dumb now when I go into work tomorrow and say "you know how I was really hyping up the Troque engine. Forget it, I don't know what I'm talking about."
#93
11/01/2007 (6:15 pm)
Quote:The whole TSE development stopped a LONG time ago, and what many of us are left with is a complete mess of an engine that we paid money for, in good faith with the promise of fixed features, addition of missing features and so on.You bring up a valid point and for that reason I believe that GG should offer a free upgrade path to T2 from TGEA.
#94
I do think as most do that there need to be some sort of discount for TGEA owners. I still am going to have to use TGEA for the time being honestly the engine has gotten a lot better in the past 6 months. Though the art pipline still blows. Mainly in the area of atlas and shadows. But even that has made a good bit of progress. At lease we have sahdows on Atlas Blended terrains now.
11/01/2007 (8:52 pm)
I'm going to reserve jugment till I see wether or not there are any updates for TGEA. I still have hope for it.I do think as most do that there need to be some sort of discount for TGEA owners. I still am going to have to use TGEA for the time being honestly the engine has gotten a lot better in the past 6 months. Though the art pipline still blows. Mainly in the area of atlas and shadows. But even that has made a good bit of progress. At lease we have sahdows on Atlas Blended terrains now.
#95
I too bought the early adopters version of TGEA back when it was TSE. Yep, I was suckered in with the shiny water just like the rest of ya.
BUT, I can't help but hope that Torque 2 will be something a whole lot better. By reading the plans it makes good sense. On paper this thing will be huge. In reality, I fear that the 20-30 employees at GG are too spread out and only a few will be doing the Torque 2 thing.
They really should have never said a word and just posted the link for the DL when it was done. I would have bought it.
11/01/2007 (9:57 pm)
Well I see what you guys are saying and for the most part I agree completely. How in the world are they going to pump out a new engine, work out details on the new merger and the online game engine thing they are doing with that, support the old engines, make multi platform engines for the console systems, and do it all effectively. They can't. What GG's has done is great but they are starting to get too big. For the last few years everything "new" has been not so great. It took them forever to get some stuff in for the art pipeline and Constructor is a bug riddled carcas of a BSP modeler. Thats why its free. People would be lighting this place up for paying for something that broken. I just forsee the art pipeline getting left in the dark again being treated as more of an afterthought.I too bought the early adopters version of TGEA back when it was TSE. Yep, I was suckered in with the shiny water just like the rest of ya.
BUT, I can't help but hope that Torque 2 will be something a whole lot better. By reading the plans it makes good sense. On paper this thing will be huge. In reality, I fear that the 20-30 employees at GG are too spread out and only a few will be doing the Torque 2 thing.
They really should have never said a word and just posted the link for the DL when it was done. I would have bought it.
#96
All of the hating is not going to help except to make the people at GG bitter and go back to no communicating with us.
If you are one of the ones that has decided not to use TGEA for something else then great go use it and stop comming in here bitching. If you have decided that you are gonna wait for T2 to do your game well hey nexgen art takes a while so work on that. If you really want to produce a commercial game you are gonna need to next year and half just for your assets. "this is the route that I have chosen"
The merger has just happend and it is going to take months to see any results from it give them a chance. Before all of thie they did what they could with what they had. we may not agree with how they allocated their resources, "personally I don't agree". But what is done is done. You as a community member need to personally search within and find out wether you can forgive and move on or not. This bitterness needs to end. It is just poisoning the community.
I for one choose to forgive and look toward the future.
Don't get me wrong I have lead a few crusades to GG's gate bitching. But here are they telling you that they are trying to set things right and head in the right direction and some of you are just tearing them a new one over it.
TGEA not live up to expectations? yeah that is not in dispute but come on guys most of us were TGE owner so we paid like what $149 bucks, that is nothing. We totaly got our moneys worth even with the problems. I would buy a Torque 2 EA release in a heartbeat.
Look, all I'm saying is lets give them some time and see how it pans out. But bitching at them here is not going to help anyone. Especially us users!
GG take your time and remember, "Make the art pipeline a top priority!" This is a lesson that id has recently learned. Go to you tube or gametrailers.com and you can watch many a video of him talking about that very thing. If great games are to be made the artist need to be less contrained.
11/02/2007 (12:18 am)
Actually I think that GG is not as big as their ambitions. and Honestly I think that they are heading in the right direction. focusing on one engine and being open with the community. This is the way things used to be. I have been a member pretty much since the doors opened. Things have changed a lot since then. actually I think for the first year or so there was not even TGE just the promise of the V12 Engine lol.All of the hating is not going to help except to make the people at GG bitter and go back to no communicating with us.
If you are one of the ones that has decided not to use TGEA for something else then great go use it and stop comming in here bitching. If you have decided that you are gonna wait for T2 to do your game well hey nexgen art takes a while so work on that. If you really want to produce a commercial game you are gonna need to next year and half just for your assets. "this is the route that I have chosen"
The merger has just happend and it is going to take months to see any results from it give them a chance. Before all of thie they did what they could with what they had. we may not agree with how they allocated their resources, "personally I don't agree". But what is done is done. You as a community member need to personally search within and find out wether you can forgive and move on or not. This bitterness needs to end. It is just poisoning the community.
I for one choose to forgive and look toward the future.
Don't get me wrong I have lead a few crusades to GG's gate bitching. But here are they telling you that they are trying to set things right and head in the right direction and some of you are just tearing them a new one over it.
TGEA not live up to expectations? yeah that is not in dispute but come on guys most of us were TGE owner so we paid like what $149 bucks, that is nothing. We totaly got our moneys worth even with the problems. I would buy a Torque 2 EA release in a heartbeat.
Look, all I'm saying is lets give them some time and see how it pans out. But bitching at them here is not going to help anyone. Especially us users!
GG take your time and remember, "Make the art pipeline a top priority!" This is a lesson that id has recently learned. Go to you tube or gametrailers.com and you can watch many a video of him talking about that very thing. If great games are to be made the artist need to be less contrained.
#97
Look, I have "Notify when new comments are posted" checked on this resource, so I can get the latest news on Torque 2 and Transparent Development (not necessarily in that order). I'm certain that the vast majority of readers of this resource are here for the same reason. However, this resource seems to have been hijacked by a small number of people who want to turn it into a bitch-and moan-session and predict the end of GarageGames.
Would those of you who prefer to tell us all the things that GG is doing wrong, all the ways that this effort is going to fail, and all the ways engine Z is better than Torque, please take your naysaying elsewhere? Start up a new thread in General Discussions or something, but leave this one alone so we can find out what we need to know about T2 without having to sift through all the garbage to get to it.
And would someone at GG consider moderating this discussion to eliminate all the stuff that doesn't matter?
11/02/2007 (1:36 pm)
-sigh- Whatever, guys.Look, I have "Notify when new comments are posted" checked on this resource, so I can get the latest news on Torque 2 and Transparent Development (not necessarily in that order). I'm certain that the vast majority of readers of this resource are here for the same reason. However, this resource seems to have been hijacked by a small number of people who want to turn it into a bitch-and moan-session and predict the end of GarageGames.
Would those of you who prefer to tell us all the things that GG is doing wrong, all the ways that this effort is going to fail, and all the ways engine Z is better than Torque, please take your naysaying elsewhere? Start up a new thread in General Discussions or something, but leave this one alone so we can find out what we need to know about T2 without having to sift through all the garbage to get to it.
And would someone at GG consider moderating this discussion to eliminate all the stuff that doesn't matter?
#98
OR we are so very hopefull that this is going to be great and want to reiterate the things that we DON'T want to happen with T2. Some of us might be so very optimistic and are relaying our concerns and hope to be put at ease. Some of us MIGHT see this as one of the best options available to us from an expense aspect and really want it to work out for the best. Some of us might really want to ensure that our concerns that the art pipeline is FULLY supported. Think that might be an option?
11/02/2007 (10:34 pm)
Quote:Would those of you who prefer to tell us all the things that GG is doing wrong, all the ways that this effort is going to fail, and all the ways engine Z is better than Torque, please take your naysaying elsewhere?
OR we are so very hopefull that this is going to be great and want to reiterate the things that we DON'T want to happen with T2. Some of us might be so very optimistic and are relaying our concerns and hope to be put at ease. Some of us MIGHT see this as one of the best options available to us from an expense aspect and really want it to work out for the best. Some of us might really want to ensure that our concerns that the art pipeline is FULLY supported. Think that might be an option?
#99
Is that really what you're doing when you post to this resource? And are you speaking of your own recent post, or of others' recent posts?
Either way, I don't buy it. Even rereading the recent posts with your "some of us might ..." in mind, they still come across as doom and gloom. Oh, and whining.
11/02/2007 (11:18 pm)
Quote:
OR we are so very hopefull that this is going to be great and want to reiterate the things that we DON'T want to happen with T2. Some of us might be so very optimistic and are relaying our concerns and hope to be put at ease. Some of us MIGHT see this as one of the best options available to us from an expense aspect and really want it to work out for the best. Some of us might really want to ensure that our concerns that the art pipeline is FULLY supported. Think that might be an option?
Is that really what you're doing when you post to this resource? And are you speaking of your own recent post, or of others' recent posts?
Either way, I don't buy it. Even rereading the recent posts with your "some of us might ..." in mind, they still come across as doom and gloom. Oh, and whining.
#100
11/03/2007 (12:37 am)
In the interest of not going down that road. You are right and I am wrong. My apologies. You did say that this thread should stay on topic. It was, after all, just a comment on yours.
Torque Owner John Spivey