My thoughts, and my farewell
by J Sears · 08/27/2007 (6:29 pm) · 38 comments
I've had TGE for several years now, also have TGB and some content packs. But I think at this point I've decided it was complete money wasted for me. I had some fun with TGB but most of the projects I was really interested in would be better off in java or activeX etc. One example would be the card game in my previous blogs. TGB was just overkill for this simple of a game.
But I think I am done working with all the products for at least a long time if not permanently. I'm sure I will still check the forums a bit. I find the discussion in game ideas and industry to be pretty interesting some times. On my way out I'd like to vent a few things.
First I do agree you can make games with TGE if you have the skills. I did not and was hoping to learn them with this engine. I found the learning curve with the lack of documentation and the resources all being several versions old so frustrating it made learning extra difficult.
I also find it baffling that they never directly incorporated some of the resources directly into the engine. I know, not everyone will need every feature so why put it in. Ok that's fine but not everyone will need a crossbow and an orc but those are in there. Also there are certain things, the vast majority will use.
Melee, yes that old arguement, what was the last FPS you played that had no melee in it? Even doom had melee. When was the last time you played an rpg without melee? Far more games will need some form of melee then not need it. There are many other examples like this for other resources.
Why not embrace something like the modernization kit, it makes the engine look so much nicer (which is needed at this point).
Also the community, there are plenty of people that help, but most just pick others apart. The same person who will complain that there's not enough people making games, not enough people putting in the effort etc. Will then turn and pick someone apart who is working hard to make a game, because he doesn't think it's interesting enough. Well great you don't like that type of game don't go play it, but if you don't have comments that are actually going to help someone then just shut up. (ya you know who you are)
Now I understand how a lot of people come into this product and get disappointed fast. They think with no skills, no training they're going to make the next WoW. I feel bad for those people, but there will always be dreamers. I wasn't one of those people. I bought this with the whole goal of learning the parts of game creation and maybe making several small projects eventually come to life. I never figured I'd make tons of money, or any money for that matter, with this engine. Learning with this engine is just too difficult.
I think one of the last straws for me was when for years people have been complaining about the documentation. Several reasons were given, we're working on other documentation right now (yes TGB is well documented, but it's also insanely easier to work with then TGE if all your doing is scripting a little 2d game), if the community is so concerned why don't they make some new documentation (well maybe if some of the money went to the community it would be their job but alas that's not how it works), the list goes on. And anytime people tried to have a reasonable, non flaming, discussion about it the threads were locked. Afraid of bad publicity maybe? Why promote the community as a big selling point and then block any conversations that make you nervous?
But what finally burned was that now they setup a school for people to pay to learn the product they already learned, as opposed to making better documentation. Yes we paid for the game now let us pay in installments for an instruction manual, I know I'd buy any other product in the world knowing that going in.
I'm sure this will get deleted before too many get to read it, despite being a paying customer and using no profanity in the blog. But I had to get that out there. As for me, now that I've been out of the Navy for a year and a half it's time for me to get a degree at night while working during the day (so no real time for game making anyways). I'm going to be working on a programming degree from UMass, it may not be game programming but I'm trying to be realistic in where I can get a job.
I truly don't mind sitting in front of a computer all day, and I like programming so it should fit well. I hope in my spare time to start learning more about game making, mostly focused in directx. I have a book on intro to directx game programming and the directx sdk is very usefull, lots of good tutorials and examples in there.
I pick directx because I feel it is a great tool for game creation and to be honest I've never cared about cross platform tools. I want to create games for windows. Now that Mac makes computers that run Windows so well all the more reason.
So like I said I will be checking in on the general forums from time to time to see any good discussions going on, I hope all the users good luck and that hopefully they'll be able to create a game with the money they've spent.
Flames can begin below
But I think I am done working with all the products for at least a long time if not permanently. I'm sure I will still check the forums a bit. I find the discussion in game ideas and industry to be pretty interesting some times. On my way out I'd like to vent a few things.
First I do agree you can make games with TGE if you have the skills. I did not and was hoping to learn them with this engine. I found the learning curve with the lack of documentation and the resources all being several versions old so frustrating it made learning extra difficult.
I also find it baffling that they never directly incorporated some of the resources directly into the engine. I know, not everyone will need every feature so why put it in. Ok that's fine but not everyone will need a crossbow and an orc but those are in there. Also there are certain things, the vast majority will use.
Melee, yes that old arguement, what was the last FPS you played that had no melee in it? Even doom had melee. When was the last time you played an rpg without melee? Far more games will need some form of melee then not need it. There are many other examples like this for other resources.
Why not embrace something like the modernization kit, it makes the engine look so much nicer (which is needed at this point).
Also the community, there are plenty of people that help, but most just pick others apart. The same person who will complain that there's not enough people making games, not enough people putting in the effort etc. Will then turn and pick someone apart who is working hard to make a game, because he doesn't think it's interesting enough. Well great you don't like that type of game don't go play it, but if you don't have comments that are actually going to help someone then just shut up. (ya you know who you are)
Now I understand how a lot of people come into this product and get disappointed fast. They think with no skills, no training they're going to make the next WoW. I feel bad for those people, but there will always be dreamers. I wasn't one of those people. I bought this with the whole goal of learning the parts of game creation and maybe making several small projects eventually come to life. I never figured I'd make tons of money, or any money for that matter, with this engine. Learning with this engine is just too difficult.
I think one of the last straws for me was when for years people have been complaining about the documentation. Several reasons were given, we're working on other documentation right now (yes TGB is well documented, but it's also insanely easier to work with then TGE if all your doing is scripting a little 2d game), if the community is so concerned why don't they make some new documentation (well maybe if some of the money went to the community it would be their job but alas that's not how it works), the list goes on. And anytime people tried to have a reasonable, non flaming, discussion about it the threads were locked. Afraid of bad publicity maybe? Why promote the community as a big selling point and then block any conversations that make you nervous?
But what finally burned was that now they setup a school for people to pay to learn the product they already learned, as opposed to making better documentation. Yes we paid for the game now let us pay in installments for an instruction manual, I know I'd buy any other product in the world knowing that going in.
I'm sure this will get deleted before too many get to read it, despite being a paying customer and using no profanity in the blog. But I had to get that out there. As for me, now that I've been out of the Navy for a year and a half it's time for me to get a degree at night while working during the day (so no real time for game making anyways). I'm going to be working on a programming degree from UMass, it may not be game programming but I'm trying to be realistic in where I can get a job.
I truly don't mind sitting in front of a computer all day, and I like programming so it should fit well. I hope in my spare time to start learning more about game making, mostly focused in directx. I have a book on intro to directx game programming and the directx sdk is very usefull, lots of good tutorials and examples in there.
I pick directx because I feel it is a great tool for game creation and to be honest I've never cared about cross platform tools. I want to create games for windows. Now that Mac makes computers that run Windows so well all the more reason.
So like I said I will be checking in on the general forums from time to time to see any good discussions going on, I hope all the users good luck and that hopefully they'll be able to create a game with the money they've spent.
Flames can begin below
About the author
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#22
_________________________________________________________________________________
That's easy to say for someone who is fluent in programming, but for those who simply want to make a game and avoid as much programming as possible, it's a total drag. Not everyone likes to code, not everyone wants to code - yet everyone HAS to code. Sure, you could just find someone who can do all the programming for you, but has it not been proven before how difficult it is to find a programmer around here? Or anywhere for that matter? With even more money leaving your checking account?
Some people don't want to have the fun of creating the game, they want to see their ideas just simply come into existence. Not only that, but you can't forget most people simply don't have the time - most folks here are likely to have jobs.
Thankfully, TGB is here. 2 people could make a game with that thing. I think GG should advocate newcomers to get TGB before moving onto TGE/TSE. It's SO much faster, SO much easier to get games finished and out into public, plus it's just simply one of the coolest things I have purchased for my PC in recent years. You don't need a supercomputer to run it.
If people are having problems making games, get TGB. Learn PaintShop/PhotoShop which is pretty easy (PaintShopPro is a nice low price), find yourself a programmer buddy and pump out some games. Then when you have enough $$$, you can move onto TGE and begin paying people to help you with a 3D game. Then, of course, TSE.
For those wanting to create games, do yourself a huge favor, get TGB and IGNORE TGE/TSE until the time is right to begin looking towards the 3D realm.
08/28/2007 (3:44 pm)
What fun would it be to make a game that is already made for you? If your script isn't working it's because you coded it wrong, take a step back, go have a smoke, think about some logic and make it work. _________________________________________________________________________________
That's easy to say for someone who is fluent in programming, but for those who simply want to make a game and avoid as much programming as possible, it's a total drag. Not everyone likes to code, not everyone wants to code - yet everyone HAS to code. Sure, you could just find someone who can do all the programming for you, but has it not been proven before how difficult it is to find a programmer around here? Or anywhere for that matter? With even more money leaving your checking account?
Some people don't want to have the fun of creating the game, they want to see their ideas just simply come into existence. Not only that, but you can't forget most people simply don't have the time - most folks here are likely to have jobs.
Thankfully, TGB is here. 2 people could make a game with that thing. I think GG should advocate newcomers to get TGB before moving onto TGE/TSE. It's SO much faster, SO much easier to get games finished and out into public, plus it's just simply one of the coolest things I have purchased for my PC in recent years. You don't need a supercomputer to run it.
If people are having problems making games, get TGB. Learn PaintShop/PhotoShop which is pretty easy (PaintShopPro is a nice low price), find yourself a programmer buddy and pump out some games. Then when you have enough $$$, you can move onto TGE and begin paying people to help you with a 3D game. Then, of course, TSE.
For those wanting to create games, do yourself a huge favor, get TGB and IGNORE TGE/TSE until the time is right to begin looking towards the 3D realm.
#23
I've been a TGE owner since 2003 when I had my first dreams of building a better shooter. I also own TGEA and several products in the GG.com store. My relationship can be best described as "love/hate". I love the engine and it's learning curve (for programmers). I hate the frustrated hours of banging my head into the keyboard because I screwed up some bitmask and now my game crashes randomly. As a programmer, one learns to overcome such minor trials. :)
But after all those literally thousands of lost hours in the Torque engine... I really know this engine. I make no claims at being a C++ guru... but I do know TGE very, very well.
No, TGE is not a "modern" engine by any stretch. What it does do, it does extremely well. If you are a programmer with no game development experience (as I was), this is the perfect learning tool. You can absolutely, positively make a prototype for a game that can be sold to a commerical production house. Yes, you can.
No, TGEA is not a "complete" engine by any stretch and I feel it's at best a work in progress. It's simply not "generic" enough in it's internal architecture (as TGE is now), and as a result bending it to your will is quite a Herculean effort if you have a complex game design. It is, however, every bit as capable and efficient as any other modern engine. I eagerly await further revisions of TGEA and hope that such issues are given a higher priority.
Yes, I have looked at other game engines. My frustration has led me to A6, DB (a kids toy), CryEngine, the Quake engine, OGRE (which has real potential), and some others that don't bear mentioning. Dollar for dollar, TGE is still the best option for the beginning game developer, period.... and unless you have a game on the market you are a beginner.
Documentation is nice, but if you are working w/ TGE/TGEA you must have a C++ guy on your team. There's no substitute for someone who knows how to translate your design dynamics into U32 newHeight = (mProfile->mFont->getHeight() + mLineSpacingPixels) * getMax(numLines, U32(1));. There's no engine out there any better at this than Torque. Sorry... it's all the same.
I'm one of those "this is not what I call an indie art pipeline" TGE owners. I'm continually disappointed in the fact that each talented artist to whom I present the TGE artistic documentation responds with something similar to "LOLWUT?" after looking it over. Two years into my project and I find myself with thousands of concept art pieces, 4 frustrated artists, and not a single acceptable model. I have had no choice but to pay for them from an art house on this website that specializes in Torque models. That plain sucks.... both for my pocketbook and the morale of my team.
I have spent, am spending, and will spend money on developing games with the Torque line of products. I'm taking my talents, my team, and $10,000 to prototype a game it would take one of the big guys $500,000 or more to get just as far.
I'm the kind of guy where if I didn't have this I'd probably be pouring money into rebuilding a 1967 split-window Corvette in my garage. If you are serious hobbyist, you still come out ahead with Torque.
08/28/2007 (5:12 pm)
Since this is a nice well-behaved discussion on a topic I am most passionate about, I am going to chime in as well.I've been a TGE owner since 2003 when I had my first dreams of building a better shooter. I also own TGEA and several products in the GG.com store. My relationship can be best described as "love/hate". I love the engine and it's learning curve (for programmers). I hate the frustrated hours of banging my head into the keyboard because I screwed up some bitmask and now my game crashes randomly. As a programmer, one learns to overcome such minor trials. :)
But after all those literally thousands of lost hours in the Torque engine... I really know this engine. I make no claims at being a C++ guru... but I do know TGE very, very well.
No, TGE is not a "modern" engine by any stretch. What it does do, it does extremely well. If you are a programmer with no game development experience (as I was), this is the perfect learning tool. You can absolutely, positively make a prototype for a game that can be sold to a commerical production house. Yes, you can.
No, TGEA is not a "complete" engine by any stretch and I feel it's at best a work in progress. It's simply not "generic" enough in it's internal architecture (as TGE is now), and as a result bending it to your will is quite a Herculean effort if you have a complex game design. It is, however, every bit as capable and efficient as any other modern engine. I eagerly await further revisions of TGEA and hope that such issues are given a higher priority.
Yes, I have looked at other game engines. My frustration has led me to A6, DB (a kids toy), CryEngine, the Quake engine, OGRE (which has real potential), and some others that don't bear mentioning. Dollar for dollar, TGE is still the best option for the beginning game developer, period.... and unless you have a game on the market you are a beginner.
Documentation is nice, but if you are working w/ TGE/TGEA you must have a C++ guy on your team. There's no substitute for someone who knows how to translate your design dynamics into U32 newHeight = (mProfile->mFont->getHeight() + mLineSpacingPixels) * getMax(numLines, U32(1));. There's no engine out there any better at this than Torque. Sorry... it's all the same.
I'm one of those "this is not what I call an indie art pipeline" TGE owners. I'm continually disappointed in the fact that each talented artist to whom I present the TGE artistic documentation responds with something similar to "LOLWUT?" after looking it over. Two years into my project and I find myself with thousands of concept art pieces, 4 frustrated artists, and not a single acceptable model. I have had no choice but to pay for them from an art house on this website that specializes in Torque models. That plain sucks.... both for my pocketbook and the morale of my team.
I have spent, am spending, and will spend money on developing games with the Torque line of products. I'm taking my talents, my team, and $10,000 to prototype a game it would take one of the big guys $500,000 or more to get just as far.
I'm the kind of guy where if I didn't have this I'd probably be pouring money into rebuilding a 1967 split-window Corvette in my garage. If you are serious hobbyist, you still come out ahead with Torque.
#24
@Anyone that thinks they can develop a game with no coding: ROFLMAO! Cut back on the mind altering drugs, ok? =)
Making games requires a certain set of skills, which includes coding. If you cannot code and are unwilling/unable to learn, then your only recourses are A) Forget about making games, or B) Collaborate with someone who CAN code. Plain and simple.
@J Sears: I don't know exactly what your situation is or where your Torque abilities lie... All I can say is, look back your ability level in 2004 and compare it with where you're at now. If indeed you haven't made any progress with Torque (and obviously, if you're not having fun with it...), then go ahead and throw in the towel -- it's not for you; go do something else. No sense in banging your head against the wall.
However, if you are still making progress and having fun, stick with it! Torque has only been getting better over time and I expect that trend to continue. And hopefully at some point things will come together and you will be able to make the game you want.
Bryce makes some good points, but I want to confirm one specific point: I have worked with a variety of engines and for the money, Torque is where it's at. There just isn't anything else out there with Torque's power and capability. And I know for a fact that there are other engines out there that have worse documentation, community, and capabilities than Torque and cost a whole lot more.
Oh and one more point (and no, J Sears or anyone else, I'm not pointing a finger at you in particular, just stating my mind here... )
Over the years I've developed something of a pet peeve with people that complain that Garage Games "screwed them out of their money" or whatever. Near as I can tell, since day one Garage Games has provided demos of their products, which -- although sans engine code -- are fully functional! I.E. one could conceivably create a complete prototype of a fully functional game with out laying down one single pfennig, farthing, dime, or peso! So, sorry anyone that feels ripped off, but you simply didn't do your homework before plopping down your hard-earned cashish. =P
08/28/2007 (6:40 pm)
I initially wasn't going to get into it here, but I caved in... =)@Anyone that thinks they can develop a game with no coding: ROFLMAO! Cut back on the mind altering drugs, ok? =)
Making games requires a certain set of skills, which includes coding. If you cannot code and are unwilling/unable to learn, then your only recourses are A) Forget about making games, or B) Collaborate with someone who CAN code. Plain and simple.
@J Sears: I don't know exactly what your situation is or where your Torque abilities lie... All I can say is, look back your ability level in 2004 and compare it with where you're at now. If indeed you haven't made any progress with Torque (and obviously, if you're not having fun with it...), then go ahead and throw in the towel -- it's not for you; go do something else. No sense in banging your head against the wall.
However, if you are still making progress and having fun, stick with it! Torque has only been getting better over time and I expect that trend to continue. And hopefully at some point things will come together and you will be able to make the game you want.
Bryce makes some good points, but I want to confirm one specific point: I have worked with a variety of engines and for the money, Torque is where it's at. There just isn't anything else out there with Torque's power and capability. And I know for a fact that there are other engines out there that have worse documentation, community, and capabilities than Torque and cost a whole lot more.
Oh and one more point (and no, J Sears or anyone else, I'm not pointing a finger at you in particular, just stating my mind here... )
Over the years I've developed something of a pet peeve with people that complain that Garage Games "screwed them out of their money" or whatever. Near as I can tell, since day one Garage Games has provided demos of their products, which -- although sans engine code -- are fully functional! I.E. one could conceivably create a complete prototype of a fully functional game with out laying down one single pfennig, farthing, dime, or peso! So, sorry anyone that feels ripped off, but you simply didn't do your homework before plopping down your hard-earned cashish. =P
#25
08/29/2007 (7:30 am)
I have the honest feeling the future of game creation will require no coding. Think of it as the mothership of game engines.
#26
Back when I first started wanting to make games I knew I had to learn several things: programming, art, audio, etc... I've taken my time learning each. Believe me torque is what I've been wanting for a long time. Especially coming from the days of Basic, ASM and trying to peek and poke on a C64, to doing a 256 palette for Q2... to now ... it seems to me most of the hard stuff IS already programmed for you. They give you the engine already coded and thats the hardest part!!
< editted out the useless info :) >
08/29/2007 (8:16 am)
Sorry but everything on a computer requires coding and making a game requires a lot of coding. Back when I first started wanting to make games I knew I had to learn several things: programming, art, audio, etc... I've taken my time learning each. Believe me torque is what I've been wanting for a long time. Especially coming from the days of Basic, ASM and trying to peek and poke on a C64, to doing a 256 palette for Q2... to now ... it seems to me most of the hard stuff IS already programmed for you. They give you the engine already coded and thats the hardest part!!
< editted out the useless info :) >
#27
I think you are getting confused with what people with no programming background are 'really' requesting in TGE. If you have modded games like Quake 2 then you probably know that even Carmack acknowledged the fact that their editors simply suck for the artists. That's the reason that with idTech 5 ('Rage' engine) they hired people to 'just work on the GUI' to eliminate all the complicated stuff for the artists (like creating material shaders and stuff just to import models and textures) so they could concentrate on, you know, art.
Improving TGE interface (look at the Constructor, it's a designers dream come true) by adding simple options to replace the coding in various places, adding more tiles for the terrain itself 9which would require coding).. all of these are just few of the common features which should be present in any engine inside the editor that markets to Indie. Believe it or not, most people dream of making a game all alone and yes, it's possible no matter what you say as long as they have the right tools.
Anyways, it just a matter of who can spend/waste more time learning something or just skip over to something easier (or something that suits their skills). The only problem is that TGE product page lacks a quote like, for eg., following CnP from C4 Engine wiki which unlike TDN is actually open so you can go and see how much and what kind of content is actually available instead of relying on something like: "You will get access to our Wiki with all the help in the world." quotes from the developers.
EDIT: Quote on second posts.. stupid post words limit.
08/29/2007 (8:41 am)
@mbI think you are getting confused with what people with no programming background are 'really' requesting in TGE. If you have modded games like Quake 2 then you probably know that even Carmack acknowledged the fact that their editors simply suck for the artists. That's the reason that with idTech 5 ('Rage' engine) they hired people to 'just work on the GUI' to eliminate all the complicated stuff for the artists (like creating material shaders and stuff just to import models and textures) so they could concentrate on, you know, art.
Improving TGE interface (look at the Constructor, it's a designers dream come true) by adding simple options to replace the coding in various places, adding more tiles for the terrain itself 9which would require coding).. all of these are just few of the common features which should be present in any engine inside the editor that markets to Indie. Believe it or not, most people dream of making a game all alone and yes, it's possible no matter what you say as long as they have the right tools.
Quote:They give you the engine already coded and thats the hardest part!!The hardest part is that in the end you still end up with just the code in your hands.
Anyways, it just a matter of who can spend/waste more time learning something or just skip over to something easier (or something that suits their skills). The only problem is that TGE product page lacks a quote like, for eg., following CnP from C4 Engine wiki which unlike TDN is actually open so you can go and see how much and what kind of content is actually available instead of relying on something like: "You will get access to our Wiki with all the help in the world." quotes from the developers.
EDIT: Quote on second posts.. stupid post words limit.
#28
The death of programming is and has always been greatly exaggerated :-) People have been predicting for over 30 years that computer programming would go the way of the dodo, but it hasn't. The truth is that there is no "programmer conspiracy" by the technological priesthood to lock artists out of game creation. Making a computer do what you want it to do is hard. To get the kind of flexibility that you get from writing code in a programming language, you have to create something that is equivalent in complexity. In the end you gain nothing, other than creating a new programming language. Of course, I could be wrong :-)
08/29/2007 (8:45 am)
"I have the honest feeling the future of game creation will require no coding."The death of programming is and has always been greatly exaggerated :-) People have been predicting for over 30 years that computer programming would go the way of the dodo, but it hasn't. The truth is that there is no "programmer conspiracy" by the technological priesthood to lock artists out of game creation. Making a computer do what you want it to do is hard. To get the kind of flexibility that you get from writing code in a programming language, you have to create something that is equivalent in complexity. In the end you gain nothing, other than creating a new programming language. Of course, I could be wrong :-)
#30
LEARNING IS NEVER A WASTE OF TIME.
With game development, learning never stops. Even professionals are still learning every day, regardless of the engine (or lack thereof) that they are using.
Embrace learning and the intellectual challenge it presents. It's one of the most fun and rewarding aspects of making games. In fact, it's one of the most fun and rewarding aspects of life.
T.
08/29/2007 (9:32 am)
Quote:Anyways, it just a matter of who can spend/waste more time learning something or just skip over to something easier (or something that suits their skills).
LEARNING IS NEVER A WASTE OF TIME.
With game development, learning never stops. Even professionals are still learning every day, regardless of the engine (or lack thereof) that they are using.
Embrace learning and the intellectual challenge it presents. It's one of the most fun and rewarding aspects of making games. In fact, it's one of the most fun and rewarding aspects of life.
T.
#31
Right. That's the reason why I typed 'spend/waste'.. for those who 'spend' time learning and for those who think they are 'wasting' time learning something.
08/29/2007 (9:42 am)
Quote:LEARNING IS NEVER A WASTE OF TIME.
Right. That's the reason why I typed 'spend/waste'.. for those who 'spend' time learning and for those who think they are 'wasting' time learning something.
#32
I think saying that games will get to a point where no coding is involved is a stretch but I do think it will continue to get more visual and more script based. As one person pointed out look at 3D modelling programs, they essentially present a completly visual interface and take what you produce and put it in it's code form for an engine to understand. Modelling programs could still require people to enter in the codes but instead they're now visual. I do personally believe middleware will continue to evolve which requires less and less coding by the people making the game. But those will also be specific game type designed, so FPS, RTS, racing etc, the engines will be setup for that one type of game so limits will be greater.
@kevin I agree with you, if anyone is having fun with something they should continue to work with it as long as it's fun/rewarding. For me that part passed long ago to pure frustration.
@bryce I could only dream of having that kind of extra money to work on a hobby I had, but I'm sure you'll be able to make some things happen if that is used right
That
08/29/2007 (6:07 pm)
I never used the words ripped off, if I felt genuinely ripped off by any product I'd fight for my money back. Torque is technically everything it claims to be, it is a working engine and you can make games with it.I think saying that games will get to a point where no coding is involved is a stretch but I do think it will continue to get more visual and more script based. As one person pointed out look at 3D modelling programs, they essentially present a completly visual interface and take what you produce and put it in it's code form for an engine to understand. Modelling programs could still require people to enter in the codes but instead they're now visual. I do personally believe middleware will continue to evolve which requires less and less coding by the people making the game. But those will also be specific game type designed, so FPS, RTS, racing etc, the engines will be setup for that one type of game so limits will be greater.
@kevin I agree with you, if anyone is having fun with something they should continue to work with it as long as it's fun/rewarding. For me that part passed long ago to pure frustration.
@bryce I could only dream of having that kind of extra money to work on a hobby I had, but I'm sure you'll be able to make some things happen if that is used right
That
#33
It IS HARD to make a game.
It is HARDER to make a game that can actually be sold.
It is close to impossible to make a commercial quality game, without some form of help.
Torque is a tool (the main guts) that can be used to assist in making commercial games.
It has been done.
Maybe not a lot, but the proof is there.
I believe somewhere it says it's not really for beginners.
I have it for fun, a hobby.
I think if the purchase goal is towards make a game, then it should be considered a part of the toolset, rather than the whole game making tool.
Success in game making includes need for many tools.
The more tools, the more knowledge of using those tools, and the more people with the appropriate tools in their hands, the greater the success and uniqueness.
i.e.
Imagine one bricklayer building a brick house.
Now imagine 20 doing the same house together, each adding their unique skill and experience to the building task.
Now imagine a different house with 20 different brick layers. Chances are that although the same tools were used, the result can be quite different.
It's a tool. If you want the job, become proefficient with the tools.
With any job, task, desire, it is YOU who learns the tool, and simply uses the tool to complete the job.
Short, don't blame the tool : )
08/29/2007 (7:11 pm)
Simple.It IS HARD to make a game.
It is HARDER to make a game that can actually be sold.
It is close to impossible to make a commercial quality game, without some form of help.
Torque is a tool (the main guts) that can be used to assist in making commercial games.
It has been done.
Maybe not a lot, but the proof is there.
I believe somewhere it says it's not really for beginners.
I have it for fun, a hobby.
I think if the purchase goal is towards make a game, then it should be considered a part of the toolset, rather than the whole game making tool.
Success in game making includes need for many tools.
The more tools, the more knowledge of using those tools, and the more people with the appropriate tools in their hands, the greater the success and uniqueness.
i.e.
Imagine one bricklayer building a brick house.
Now imagine 20 doing the same house together, each adding their unique skill and experience to the building task.
Now imagine a different house with 20 different brick layers. Chances are that although the same tools were used, the result can be quite different.
It's a tool. If you want the job, become proefficient with the tools.
With any job, task, desire, it is YOU who learns the tool, and simply uses the tool to complete the job.
Short, don't blame the tool : )
#34
08/29/2007 (8:06 pm)
Quote:or C) use Gamemaker and/or RPGMaker ;)
@Anyone that thinks they can develop a game with no coding: ROFLMAO! Cut back on the mind altering drugs, ok? =)
Making games requires a certain set of skills, which includes coding. If you cannot code and are unwilling/unable to learn, then your only recourses are A) Forget about making games, or B) Collaborate with someone who CAN code. Plain and simple.
#35
@J Sears: Sorry, it's just that when things like, "...complete money wasted for me..." are said, they are generally taken as being analogous to "I feel ripped off." =)
But my point was: If you are planning on purchasing a product -- any product -- you have certain expectations. You'd better make absolutely sure that those expectations will be met before you make the purchase, or -- inevitably -- you will feel ripped off. "Hey, I thought this car had a V-8, but it's only got a V-6! What the....?!"
And anyone who purchases the Torque engine with the expectation that it will make a game for them... they're gonna feel ripped off. =P
Anyway, I'm always disappointed to see others call it quits with Torque -- I think it's a great engine and have no regrets about purchasing it. Sure I've had my share of frustrations with it, but it really is pretty cool to work with. I've messed around with a lot of different game engines, and the only engines that I'd give up Torque for would be CryEngine, idTech4 (or idTech5, mmmm... ), or Source. But alas, licensing any of those engines is a little beyond my means. =)
@Benjamin: Ugh. If those were my only choices, I'd move to Mongolia and herd yaks.
08/30/2007 (2:00 pm)
Amen, Tom! There's always something new and challenging with game development... that's one of the things that's so cool about it.@J Sears: Sorry, it's just that when things like, "...complete money wasted for me..." are said, they are generally taken as being analogous to "I feel ripped off." =)
But my point was: If you are planning on purchasing a product -- any product -- you have certain expectations. You'd better make absolutely sure that those expectations will be met before you make the purchase, or -- inevitably -- you will feel ripped off. "Hey, I thought this car had a V-8, but it's only got a V-6! What the....?!"
And anyone who purchases the Torque engine with the expectation that it will make a game for them... they're gonna feel ripped off. =P
Anyway, I'm always disappointed to see others call it quits with Torque -- I think it's a great engine and have no regrets about purchasing it. Sure I've had my share of frustrations with it, but it really is pretty cool to work with. I've messed around with a lot of different game engines, and the only engines that I'd give up Torque for would be CryEngine, idTech4 (or idTech5, mmmm... ), or Source. But alas, licensing any of those engines is a little beyond my means. =)
@Benjamin: Ugh. If those were my only choices, I'd move to Mongolia and herd yaks.
#36
This is somewhat of an epiphany that struck me about 3 months ago and tangents nicely on the OP. :) One of the fundamental errors (and this is not directed at anyone in particular) of "hobbyist" developers is not designing the game with the end in mind.
A) Are you just making a game so you can say you did?
B) Are you just looking to learn a new skillset?
C) Are you just looking to play with a new toy?
D) Are you looking to make money?
D-1) How much money?
If the answer is A, B or C, TGE/TGEA is perfect right out of the box... $150-$250 well spent. Enjoy. However, do not set your expectation of creating the next WoW, EQ, CS:S or what have you: that lightning bolt strikes less often than the lottery.
If the answer is D, you have to approach your project similar to that of any business venture. Make your own lightning bolt. Timelines, cost estimates, and asset allocations. Those "assets" you will allocate are in large part you and your team member's time, blood, and sweat. There does come a point where, if you aren't blessed with a complete cadre of professional game artists and coders, that you are going to have to spend money to make your dream a reality. We've estimated that it will take roughly $45,000 to bring our game to market. This is still less than 10% of the prototyping budget for a commerical product.
The upside is that you will have to spend no where near the amount of money a commercial development house must spend to achieve the same quality product. If you go with TGE/TGEA, you will spend even less money than if you go with any other engine, period.
Set your goals appropriately, create a plan of how to get there, and then pursue them with diligence.... Just like anything else in life. :)
09/01/2007 (3:33 pm)
@J_Sears: It's not mana from heaven... I did go out and get a loan, but it took two years of development and a solid commitment of me (and my wife) for a bank to listen to my idea. I consider my game a 21st century corner store... I don't expect to make millions, but I do want to make enough to live. I did, however, have enough of a business plan together that I was able to secure $10,000 without a single penny in security. It took 3 banks and 4 bankers.... but if you do your homework and keep talking to people it will happen.This is somewhat of an epiphany that struck me about 3 months ago and tangents nicely on the OP. :) One of the fundamental errors (and this is not directed at anyone in particular) of "hobbyist" developers is not designing the game with the end in mind.
A) Are you just making a game so you can say you did?
B) Are you just looking to learn a new skillset?
C) Are you just looking to play with a new toy?
D) Are you looking to make money?
D-1) How much money?
If the answer is A, B or C, TGE/TGEA is perfect right out of the box... $150-$250 well spent. Enjoy. However, do not set your expectation of creating the next WoW, EQ, CS:S or what have you: that lightning bolt strikes less often than the lottery.
If the answer is D, you have to approach your project similar to that of any business venture. Make your own lightning bolt. Timelines, cost estimates, and asset allocations. Those "assets" you will allocate are in large part you and your team member's time, blood, and sweat. There does come a point where, if you aren't blessed with a complete cadre of professional game artists and coders, that you are going to have to spend money to make your dream a reality. We've estimated that it will take roughly $45,000 to bring our game to market. This is still less than 10% of the prototyping budget for a commerical product.
The upside is that you will have to spend no where near the amount of money a commercial development house must spend to achieve the same quality product. If you go with TGE/TGEA, you will spend even less money than if you go with any other engine, period.
Set your goals appropriately, create a plan of how to get there, and then pursue them with diligence.... Just like anything else in life. :)
#37
Documentation still stinks all this time later... and I agree about the torque school... LOL.. .there goes your community and TDN GG... now nobody will post free content 0 why should they when they can teach a class!!
12/03/2007 (2:42 pm)
But that is the author's point... GG is marketing this as the "anyone can create a game" product.. and it is not... $45,000 to bring your game to market - Good luck my friend... that's a large chunk of change to put into a game.. and of course you are saying that GG is not the way to go.. again supporting the author.Documentation still stinks all this time later... and I agree about the torque school... LOL.. .there goes your community and TDN GG... now nobody will post free content 0 why should they when they can teach a class!!
#38
Ask the authors of Gish, Marble Madness and the like how much they invested to get their projects to market and I'll bet its probably half of what I require. Both of those games are now featured on GameTap and developed with the Torque engine.
If your goal is to create a AAA quality game on par with WoW, COD4 or BioShock and think that you are going to be able to do it in your spare time with spare change with any game engine, you may need to reset your expectations.
I'm always amazed at folks that purchase this, or any game engine, and then rail about how difficult the task is. Making games.... really making games.... is not an easy task or everyone would do it. It takes time, smarts, dedication, comparitively little money, and love of your creation.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the engine.
12/03/2007 (7:25 pm)
Hehe... My game is an MMOFPS hence the "outrageous" to-market cost.It's the nature of the type of game I'm making, not indicitive of the Torque engine itself. If I may continue for a moment...Ask the authors of Gish, Marble Madness and the like how much they invested to get their projects to market and I'll bet its probably half of what I require. Both of those games are now featured on GameTap and developed with the Torque engine.
If your goal is to create a AAA quality game on par with WoW, COD4 or BioShock and think that you are going to be able to do it in your spare time with spare change with any game engine, you may need to reset your expectations.
I'm always amazed at folks that purchase this, or any game engine, and then rail about how difficult the task is. Making games.... really making games.... is not an easy task or everyone would do it. It takes time, smarts, dedication, comparitively little money, and love of your creation.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the engine.
Torque Owner Rex
BrokeAss Games
@Stephen: bad choice of words on my part, 'mechanics'; meant more of/for functioning tools....and items to help the gameplay process. We had to purchase ShowToolPro...Constructor is free, but not quite 'done'....how long now? If the 'true' mission statement, is to help those make games. Allowing the above mentioned bugs out in a 'demo' version....for an 'artist' to start using...ahem...not quite there or helpful in my book of definitions[oh, now let's bring out the 'tried and true'...not cut out for it!], let's keep on subject with the vein of the Thread.
I hack on computers, because it's hard to do and I enjoy difficult endeavors[makes the reward much better-I've built working RC boat models from Blueprints and 3D buildings/objects from printed paper, that's right PAPER]....lol....not because there's certain expectations about software working perfectly on cue....ibut because it's enjoyable. It's just that some things in this engine and the site, I don't find enjoyable...;).