TSE Milestone 4
by Brian Ramage · 08/17/2006 (12:55 pm) · 88 comments
There are a lot of questions being asked about TSE with the announcement of Torque X and MS4 coming up fast. I thought I'd answer some of them here to clear things up a bit and also show some pretty orc pictures ;)
Thanks to John Kabus for all the lighting work he did to make this possible. Also thanks to Joe Maruschak and Mark McCoy for all painstaking tweaking to the Orc's textures and animations for this demo. Tim Aste has done some pretty cool work with his characters, check up with him for some more screenshots and video of his work. Pat Wilson and Ben Garney also jumped in for some last minute code tweaks on the Orc demo. Hope to get it to y'all soon.
On to the Q/A:
- When is MS4 release?
Sometime soon, not this week though.
- What's going on with TSE after MS4?
Like other launches, we will go through a period of bug fixes based on community feedback and push out some release candidates until we feel it's ready for a full 1.0 release.
- September release?
We're hoping that we'll be ready for a 1.0 release in September. It depends on how solid it's looking. We're not going to release in September unless it's really ready to go.
- Is the TLK included with TSE?
Yes, the TLK is fully integrated with TSE and has some new features like hardware shadowing (including self-shadowing), dynamic lighting with specular and normal mapping support, and HDR/DRL solutions. John can fill you in on the complete rundown of all the cool new features.
- What's going on with OpenGL and fixed function support?
OpenGL will not be supported in the 1.0 release, but we will have OpenGL and fixed function support further down the road.
- What's the status on Atlas?
Atlas is near to becoming "runtime feature complete" that means you'll have everything you need to run Atlas and import terrain from tools like l3dt. Full editor support will not be in for Atlas however in the 1.0 release. Please note that legacy (TGE) terrain runs just fine in TSE, incuding all the editing options. I believe it outperforms TGE's terrain as well, but I haven't actually done metrics to prove it.
- What's the deal with TSE/Torque X?
They are completely separate products with different feature sets. We'll be announcing more information about Torque X when it's closer to release. Torque X is completely C# managed code however, so if you are looking for a C++ solution with shaders, TSE is the only way to go. And of course, you can still go to the 360 with the TSE path with TSE 360.
- Will TSE be standalone when final?
Yes, TSE will be its own product, you won't need to purchase TGE in order to buy TSE. Yes, the price will go up.
- If I buy Early Adopter, will I have to pay extra for updates?
If you buy the Early Adopter version of TSE now, you will not have to pay anything for the full 1.0 update or bugs fixes from then on.
- Are we going to see some new demos we can download?
Yes, although when is a bit uncertain. We should be showing some of the new stuff at PAX coming up next weekend though, so stop on by to check them out.
- Will TSE ship with the Legions demo?
Probably not anytime soon no.
- What's going on with that forest picture on the DSOTD?
We might have an exciting announcement regarding that in the near future ;)
Thanks to John Kabus for all the lighting work he did to make this possible. Also thanks to Joe Maruschak and Mark McCoy for all painstaking tweaking to the Orc's textures and animations for this demo. Tim Aste has done some pretty cool work with his characters, check up with him for some more screenshots and video of his work. Pat Wilson and Ben Garney also jumped in for some last minute code tweaks on the Orc demo. Hope to get it to y'all soon.
On to the Q/A:
- When is MS4 release?
Sometime soon, not this week though.
- What's going on with TSE after MS4?
Like other launches, we will go through a period of bug fixes based on community feedback and push out some release candidates until we feel it's ready for a full 1.0 release.
- September release?
We're hoping that we'll be ready for a 1.0 release in September. It depends on how solid it's looking. We're not going to release in September unless it's really ready to go.
- Is the TLK included with TSE?
Yes, the TLK is fully integrated with TSE and has some new features like hardware shadowing (including self-shadowing), dynamic lighting with specular and normal mapping support, and HDR/DRL solutions. John can fill you in on the complete rundown of all the cool new features.
- What's going on with OpenGL and fixed function support?
OpenGL will not be supported in the 1.0 release, but we will have OpenGL and fixed function support further down the road.
- What's the status on Atlas?
Atlas is near to becoming "runtime feature complete" that means you'll have everything you need to run Atlas and import terrain from tools like l3dt. Full editor support will not be in for Atlas however in the 1.0 release. Please note that legacy (TGE) terrain runs just fine in TSE, incuding all the editing options. I believe it outperforms TGE's terrain as well, but I haven't actually done metrics to prove it.
- What's the deal with TSE/Torque X?
They are completely separate products with different feature sets. We'll be announcing more information about Torque X when it's closer to release. Torque X is completely C# managed code however, so if you are looking for a C++ solution with shaders, TSE is the only way to go. And of course, you can still go to the 360 with the TSE path with TSE 360.
- Will TSE be standalone when final?
Yes, TSE will be its own product, you won't need to purchase TGE in order to buy TSE. Yes, the price will go up.
- If I buy Early Adopter, will I have to pay extra for updates?
If you buy the Early Adopter version of TSE now, you will not have to pay anything for the full 1.0 update or bugs fixes from then on.
- Are we going to see some new demos we can download?
Yes, although when is a bit uncertain. We should be showing some of the new stuff at PAX coming up next weekend though, so stop on by to check them out.
- Will TSE ship with the Legions demo?
Probably not anytime soon no.
- What's going on with that forest picture on the DSOTD?
We might have an exciting announcement regarding that in the near future ;)
About the author
#62
Just wow. Guess you cant please everyone.
08/24/2006 (7:28 am)
Talk about being shortsighted, Guimo. What if no one had bought the TLK for TGE. We wouldnt be having a TSE TLK then, would we? Everyone now gets TLK for TSE for free, and you're complaining.Just wow. Guess you cant please everyone.
#63
08/24/2006 (11:05 am)
Yea, wtf Guimo? Before you were going to have to PAY to get TLK on TSE, now you are getting it for free and you think you should get a further discount because FREE costs too much? I share Stefan's emotion on this one... Just wow.
#64
08/26/2006 (10:12 am)
Guimo if you have a problem with free maybe you should buy the Unreal Engine that should be more in your price range. As for everyone else seems fine with free. Oh yeh Unreal is $700,000 per game title.
#65
08/26/2006 (7:45 pm)
Nice job answering his questions and not insulting him because of the assumptions made from the GG blogs.
#66
The Synapse Gaming lighting system is included in TSE, however your TLK license provides you the same tools and lighting models for TGE - giving you a distinct advantage over other developers, and thats well worth the money (imo).
08/26/2006 (9:14 pm)
Hi Guimo,The Synapse Gaming lighting system is included in TSE, however your TLK license provides you the same tools and lighting models for TGE - giving you a distinct advantage over other developers, and thats well worth the money (imo).
#67
@Brian: Does MS 4 support shaderized particles? -well?
08/28/2006 (5:59 am)
hey, i'd love to know that, @Brian: Does MS 4 support shaderized particles? -well?
#68
My interest in the subject is because I decided to switch to TSE in order to stop thinking about programming my engine and program my game. I decided to use something powerful as the TGE. I supposed that the TSE was a way to solve my shadowing and network problems.
If anyone cares, in my game engine (www.warscale.com) I use shadowmaps. I discarded shadow volumes as they just couldn't handle tree leaves they way we wanted (by the algorith nature we ot horrible polygons). But shadowmaps in order to work fine require to be programmed as perspective shadow maps. I used simple shadowmaps and the shadows got 'pixelated' as you can see in some of the shots.
So, I really don't know if the TSE will handle this issues. I hope so. I would like to get a full shading engine not just a TLK hack. I would like to be able to switch from shadow volumes to shadowmaps and/or to handle self shadowing. I hope GG can get this working.
Luck!
Guimo
P.S. Sorry if this comments hurt anybody but I really feel this subject its important. If you consider this should be treated somewhere then please tell me where.
08/28/2006 (8:26 pm)
I sent a comment about the lights and shadows on the TSE and the TLK but it got deleted... strange...My interest in the subject is because I decided to switch to TSE in order to stop thinking about programming my engine and program my game. I decided to use something powerful as the TGE. I supposed that the TSE was a way to solve my shadowing and network problems.
If anyone cares, in my game engine (www.warscale.com) I use shadowmaps. I discarded shadow volumes as they just couldn't handle tree leaves they way we wanted (by the algorith nature we ot horrible polygons). But shadowmaps in order to work fine require to be programmed as perspective shadow maps. I used simple shadowmaps and the shadows got 'pixelated' as you can see in some of the shots.
So, I really don't know if the TSE will handle this issues. I hope so. I would like to get a full shading engine not just a TLK hack. I would like to be able to switch from shadow volumes to shadowmaps and/or to handle self shadowing. I hope GG can get this working.
Luck!
Guimo
P.S. Sorry if this comments hurt anybody but I really feel this subject its important. If you consider this should be treated somewhere then please tell me where.
#69
08/28/2006 (8:41 pm)
TLK is far from a hack - I'm sorry to hear that it didn't meet your needs, though it's clear you were expecting to get TSE style tools (self-shadowing and such) for TGE, which was never TLK's purpose. TLK provides the type of tools and lighting quality seen in many modeling applications, and in capable hands it's extremely powerful (judging from the list of shipped and in-development titles using TLK). 
#70
Bobby Leighton
08/29/2006 (9:17 am)
Wow to me this all sounds great!!Thank you a million times over GG and John Kabus and everyone that had supported TSE over the last year or so.Without the help of everyone here I dont think the college Im attending this next week would have taken me...soooo...thank you everone here for helping with my education and setting my life on the right track!!!Bobby Leighton
#71
Yes the orc is self-shadowed.
08/29/2006 (11:56 am)
Shaderized particles are not something that has been worked on, but it should be very simple to set up for yourselves. Pass in a Material in the datablock, and just set it up before you render.Yes the orc is self-shadowed.
#72
08/29/2006 (12:05 pm)
Thanks Brian for the info. I'm going to try it with MS 4. :-) 
#73
Again I want to say THANKS again GG and John. THANKS to the GG community for making things what they are now. THANKS to all the noobs out there for making GG the place to start in the game programming world, take it slow, its a big world. THANKS to all that have contributed resources to GG over the years and help make the GG products what they are today. THANKS to all that have contributed in any other way or otherwise shared their ideas and thoughts. You all have helped me improve and refine my game coding skills to a level I never thought possible.
-Trent
08/30/2006 (12:37 am)
Bottom line, GG and John Kabus pwn. It's pretty plain and simple. If you just sit around waiting for the next best addon, patch, hack or kick a$$ add-on like TLK to be created so you can plug it in, compile and then complain about some limitation you find down the road ... good luck on that venture. That's not what game programming is all about. Wow, I'll get off my soap box here before I ruin a good announcement and turn it in to a big rant instead of what should be ... a BIG THANKS.Again I want to say THANKS again GG and John. THANKS to the GG community for making things what they are now. THANKS to all the noobs out there for making GG the place to start in the game programming world, take it slow, its a big world. THANKS to all that have contributed resources to GG over the years and help make the GG products what they are today. THANKS to all that have contributed in any other way or otherwise shared their ideas and thoughts. You all have helped me improve and refine my game coding skills to a level I never thought possible.
-Trent
#74
I actually hope that it isn't though. I hope that it is a solution done by GG. I don't want to pay the $9,000 price tag to SpeedTree.
08/31/2006 (3:56 pm)
That definately looks like SpeedTree to me... :)I actually hope that it isn't though. I hope that it is a solution done by GG. I don't want to pay the $9,000 price tag to SpeedTree.
#77
08/31/2006 (8:55 pm)
That would explain why we haven't heard anything about the ForestPack for well...ever. I have been wondering about this pack for some time now. I would be extatic to see this rolled into TGE 1.5 and TSE.
#78
09/01/2006 (5:51 am)
@ Marcus - I was thinking the same thing about the AI Pack. I thought there have been way to many really really talented ppl working on it and it was way to cool to all of a sudden stop hearing about it. I was wondering if the AIPack was the hella cool thing that can't be talked about in 1.5. Then again it would always be nice to have moving platforms in the engine without the hack workaround :)
#79
09/01/2006 (5:57 am)
The AI Pack is the last piece of the puzzle needed for our game...
#80
09/01/2006 (7:00 am)
@Nick: I recommand "Programming Game AI by Example" from Mat Buckland if you don't want to wait. :-)
Torque 3D Owner Guimo
Now... I see TSE handles shadows but not sure if it supports self shadowing... I mean... after looking the picture I see the shadow of one finger over the sword blade but I can't see self shadowing in the greaves considering the light direction.
Will TSE support volume shadows or shadowmaps? Volume shadows are better in many situations but can't handle slpha maps (tree leaves) that well and in case of shadow maps will it support perspective shadow maps?
Luck!
Guimo