TSE Milestone 4
by Brian Ramage · 08/17/2006 (7:55 pm) · 88 comments
There are a lot of questions being asked about TSE with the announcement of Torque X and MS4 coming up fast. I thought I'd answer some of them here to clear things up a bit and also show some pretty orc pictures ;)
Thanks to John Kabus for all the lighting work he did to make this possible. Also thanks to Joe Maruschak and Mark McCoy for all painstaking tweaking to the Orc's textures and animations for this demo. Tim Aste has done some pretty cool work with his characters, check up with him for some more screenshots and video of his work. Pat Wilson and Ben Garney also jumped in for some last minute code tweaks on the Orc demo. Hope to get it to y'all soon.
On to the Q/A:
- When is MS4 release?
Sometime soon, not this week though.
- What's going on with TSE after MS4?
Like other launches, we will go through a period of bug fixes based on community feedback and push out some release candidates until we feel it's ready for a full 1.0 release.
- September release?
We're hoping that we'll be ready for a 1.0 release in September. It depends on how solid it's looking. We're not going to release in September unless it's really ready to go.
- Is the TLK included with TSE?
Yes, the TLK is fully integrated with TSE and has some new features like hardware shadowing (including self-shadowing), dynamic lighting with specular and normal mapping support, and HDR/DRL solutions. John can fill you in on the complete rundown of all the cool new features.
- What's going on with OpenGL and fixed function support?
OpenGL will not be supported in the 1.0 release, but we will have OpenGL and fixed function support further down the road.
- What's the status on Atlas?
Atlas is near to becoming "runtime feature complete" that means you'll have everything you need to run Atlas and import terrain from tools like l3dt. Full editor support will not be in for Atlas however in the 1.0 release. Please note that legacy (TGE) terrain runs just fine in TSE, incuding all the editing options. I believe it outperforms TGE's terrain as well, but I haven't actually done metrics to prove it.
- What's the deal with TSE/Torque X?
They are completely separate products with different feature sets. We'll be announcing more information about Torque X when it's closer to release. Torque X is completely C# managed code however, so if you are looking for a C++ solution with shaders, TSE is the only way to go. And of course, you can still go to the 360 with the TSE path with TSE 360.
- Will TSE be standalone when final?
Yes, TSE will be its own product, you won't need to purchase TGE in order to buy TSE. Yes, the price will go up.
- If I buy Early Adopter, will I have to pay extra for updates?
If you buy the Early Adopter version of TSE now, you will not have to pay anything for the full 1.0 update or bugs fixes from then on.
- Are we going to see some new demos we can download?
Yes, although when is a bit uncertain. We should be showing some of the new stuff at PAX coming up next weekend though, so stop on by to check them out.
- Will TSE ship with the Legions demo?
Probably not anytime soon no.
- What's going on with that forest picture on the DSOTD?
We might have an exciting announcement regarding that in the near future ;)
Thanks to John Kabus for all the lighting work he did to make this possible. Also thanks to Joe Maruschak and Mark McCoy for all painstaking tweaking to the Orc's textures and animations for this demo. Tim Aste has done some pretty cool work with his characters, check up with him for some more screenshots and video of his work. Pat Wilson and Ben Garney also jumped in for some last minute code tweaks on the Orc demo. Hope to get it to y'all soon.
On to the Q/A:
- When is MS4 release?
Sometime soon, not this week though.
- What's going on with TSE after MS4?
Like other launches, we will go through a period of bug fixes based on community feedback and push out some release candidates until we feel it's ready for a full 1.0 release.
- September release?
We're hoping that we'll be ready for a 1.0 release in September. It depends on how solid it's looking. We're not going to release in September unless it's really ready to go.
- Is the TLK included with TSE?
Yes, the TLK is fully integrated with TSE and has some new features like hardware shadowing (including self-shadowing), dynamic lighting with specular and normal mapping support, and HDR/DRL solutions. John can fill you in on the complete rundown of all the cool new features.
- What's going on with OpenGL and fixed function support?
OpenGL will not be supported in the 1.0 release, but we will have OpenGL and fixed function support further down the road.
- What's the status on Atlas?
Atlas is near to becoming "runtime feature complete" that means you'll have everything you need to run Atlas and import terrain from tools like l3dt. Full editor support will not be in for Atlas however in the 1.0 release. Please note that legacy (TGE) terrain runs just fine in TSE, incuding all the editing options. I believe it outperforms TGE's terrain as well, but I haven't actually done metrics to prove it.
- What's the deal with TSE/Torque X?
They are completely separate products with different feature sets. We'll be announcing more information about Torque X when it's closer to release. Torque X is completely C# managed code however, so if you are looking for a C++ solution with shaders, TSE is the only way to go. And of course, you can still go to the 360 with the TSE path with TSE 360.
- Will TSE be standalone when final?
Yes, TSE will be its own product, you won't need to purchase TGE in order to buy TSE. Yes, the price will go up.
- If I buy Early Adopter, will I have to pay extra for updates?
If you buy the Early Adopter version of TSE now, you will not have to pay anything for the full 1.0 update or bugs fixes from then on.
- Are we going to see some new demos we can download?
Yes, although when is a bit uncertain. We should be showing some of the new stuff at PAX coming up next weekend though, so stop on by to check them out.
- Will TSE ship with the Legions demo?
Probably not anytime soon no.
- What's going on with that forest picture on the DSOTD?
We might have an exciting announcement regarding that in the near future ;)
About the author
#22
08/18/2006 (12:57 am)
I don't believe we mentioned a timeframe before on how long to bugfix after MS4. We'll see how it goes. We took care of most of the nasty problems with MS3. There aren't any major problems on the radar right now, so we hope to have most of the smaller issues taken care of in the next month or so. 
#23
And i just purchase TSE and i was wondering if the coding is alot different from torque engine because i have The Game Programmer's Guide to Torque and i was wondering if alot of the coding in that book would work for the Shader?
thanks for your time
08/18/2006 (1:58 am)
I'm lost on the torque X and TSE, for me it doesn't matter the coding language i just want to be able to play my games on the 360. SO my question is do i still need to purchase torque x to play my games on the 360 or are they going to have a plug in for tse that lets you play your games on the 360.And i just purchase TSE and i was wondering if the coding is alot different from torque engine because i have The Game Programmer's Guide to Torque and i was wondering if alot of the coding in that book would work for the Shader?
thanks for your time
#24
08/18/2006 (3:19 am)
Quote:- What's the deal with TSE/Torque X?
They are completely separate products with different feature sets. We'll be announcing more information about Torque X when it's closer to release. Torque X is completely C# managed code however, so if you are looking for a C++ solution with shaders, TSE is the only way to go. And of course, you can still go to the 360 with the TSE path with TSE 360.
#25
TXE (TorqueX) - This is a C# engine for building 2D and 3D games for the PC AND XBox which uses the Microsoft XNA platform. C# is much easier and much faster to work with. You can't sell games on XBox Live Arcade with this option.
TSE 360 (NOT TSE) - This is a C++ engine for building 3D games for the XBox using C++ and DirectX. This is what you'll use if you want to sell your games on XBox Live Arcade. If you want a TSE 360 license, you have to contact GG as it's not just sold to anyone.
08/18/2006 (4:55 am)
@Kory - If you want to build XBox 360 games, you have two choices:TXE (TorqueX) - This is a C# engine for building 2D and 3D games for the PC AND XBox which uses the Microsoft XNA platform. C# is much easier and much faster to work with. You can't sell games on XBox Live Arcade with this option.
TSE 360 (NOT TSE) - This is a C++ engine for building 3D games for the XBox using C++ and DirectX. This is what you'll use if you want to sell your games on XBox Live Arcade. If you want a TSE 360 license, you have to contact GG as it's not just sold to anyone.
#26
08/18/2006 (5:27 am)
SpeedTree... 
#28
I know this isn't a place for specific questions about TSE, but could you or anyone just clarify how the water now works in TSE. Does it now work like the water in TGE, ie. If you fire a bolt into it does it have a splash particle, or if your player/vehicle runs/drives through it, do you trail 'foam particles' as you would in TGE?
I only ask as it would be the only thing stopping us from switching to TSE for our current project ( and we really want to go TSE with it ), but also it really helps to sell the water for our future titles too.
We can't wait to get our hands on it though, massive congratulations to all involved, it looks a million dollars.....literally. 8)
08/18/2006 (8:23 am)
Hi Brian, thanks for shedding some light on the TSE stuff. I know this isn't a place for specific questions about TSE, but could you or anyone just clarify how the water now works in TSE. Does it now work like the water in TGE, ie. If you fire a bolt into it does it have a splash particle, or if your player/vehicle runs/drives through it, do you trail 'foam particles' as you would in TGE?
I only ask as it would be the only thing stopping us from switching to TSE for our current project ( and we really want to go TSE with it ), but also it really helps to sell the water for our future titles too.
We can't wait to get our hands on it though, massive congratulations to all involved, it looks a million dollars.....literally. 8)
#29
Regarding the issues left:
Have you checked if Atlas now works in dedicated mode? I reported this a while ago as it stopped working since MS 3.5.
08/18/2006 (8:26 am)
Thanks Brian for clearing the points. It's good to know that I don't need to check this week day by day if MS 4 is out.Regarding the issues left:
Have you checked if Atlas now works in dedicated mode? I reported this a while ago as it stopped working since MS 3.5.
#30
thanks again
08/18/2006 (8:28 am)
Thank you for the responses about torque X and TSE, but can you use the same coding in The Game Programmer's Guide to Torque for TSE 1.0 or is the coding alot different?thanks again
#31
It was planned, so there are people that bought TLK for TGE with the intention to have free access to TLK for TSE when it came out. Don't matter anymore. What matters is we'll be getting TSE and lighting sooner than expected!
Awesome work guys! We'll be porting our game over to TSE this fall!
Nick
08/18/2006 (10:05 am)
Quote:There was no TLK for TSE. How could anyone buy something that not exists?
TLK is for TGE only.
It was planned, so there are people that bought TLK for TGE with the intention to have free access to TLK for TSE when it came out. Don't matter anymore. What matters is we'll be getting TSE and lighting sooner than expected!
Awesome work guys! We'll be porting our game over to TSE this fall!
Nick
#32
Nick, it was promised that you would not have to pay for an upgrade to get Synapse Gaming's TSE based lighting system (what was then called TLK for TSE), and we've remained true to our word.
08/18/2006 (10:43 am)
Jon, many people use more than one engine and will likely continue to develop on TGE and TSE.Nick, it was promised that you would not have to pay for an upgrade to get Synapse Gaming's TSE based lighting system (what was then called TLK for TSE), and we've remained true to our word.
#33
I get the impression that OpenGL support has been delayed, but not canceled. Can we count on that it will make it into TSE at some point after 1.0?
Crossplatform and terrain editing abilities. These are, according to you, going to make it in after 1.0. Now, will that update be included in the price we payed for TSE or do we need to pay an additional fee?
08/18/2006 (11:03 am)
I got two questions.I get the impression that OpenGL support has been delayed, but not canceled. Can we count on that it will make it into TSE at some point after 1.0?
Crossplatform and terrain editing abilities. These are, according to you, going to make it in after 1.0. Now, will that update be included in the price we payed for TSE or do we need to pay an additional fee?
#35
08/18/2006 (12:09 pm)
No, they said that updates and bugfixes for 1.0 will be free. Nothing more, nothing less.
#36
- OpenGL support
- Atlas editors
- Legions demo as a starter.fps replacement
Whilst I don't mind too much if these features are delayed, what really bothers me is that the lack of these features in the 1.0 release combined with GG's previous announcement that updates to TGE and such would no longer be free begs the question, will these features that we were previously led to beleive we'd get under the early adopter price now end up being in a later release of TSE, i.e. 1.1 that we will have to pay extra for?
I'd be greatful if someone from GG can clear this up as if it is the case that we're going to have to pay extra for these features then I feel severely cheated by GG. I sincerely hope these features (and potentially others I can't remember right now) are going to be made available free of charge even if not for the 1.0 release.
08/18/2006 (12:10 pm)
I have to agree with others that honestly whilst I'm glad to hear TSE is nearing release I feel somewhat gutted that some changes have been made to what was expected. I was under the impression that we'd see the following features in at release judging from the TSE FAQ and forum posts by GG staff:- OpenGL support
- Atlas editors
- Legions demo as a starter.fps replacement
Whilst I don't mind too much if these features are delayed, what really bothers me is that the lack of these features in the 1.0 release combined with GG's previous announcement that updates to TGE and such would no longer be free begs the question, will these features that we were previously led to beleive we'd get under the early adopter price now end up being in a later release of TSE, i.e. 1.1 that we will have to pay extra for?
I'd be greatful if someone from GG can clear this up as if it is the case that we're going to have to pay extra for these features then I feel severely cheated by GG. I sincerely hope these features (and potentially others I can't remember right now) are going to be made available free of charge even if not for the 1.0 release.
#37
My fault. Didn't knew that. Sorry, Mincetro!
@John Kabus
When MS4 will be released, will we have some docs about the lighting system? Information about, for example, how many dynamic lights the system will support for a given scene?
08/18/2006 (12:16 pm)
Quote:It was planned, so there are people that bought TLK for TGE with the intention to have free access to TLK for TSE when it came out.
My fault. Didn't knew that. Sorry, Mincetro!
@John Kabus
When MS4 will be released, will we have some docs about the lighting system? Information about, for example, how many dynamic lights the system will support for a given scene?
#38
I'll be porting the TLK documentation to TDN shortly after the MS4 release, so for the first week you might have to wing it, but the lighting system is very easy to use (it's all gui-based). Also I'll try to port the documentation in order, so the basics are posted to TDN first. If you have any questions in the meantime though just ask in the TSE forums and I'll be happy to help out.
08/18/2006 (12:55 pm)
I think a lot of people are misreading previous comments - based on the threads I've seen and the comments made by GG only TGE will require an upgrade. And that is after 6+ years of free updates and at least 5 versions (that I've been around for). TSE is only just making it out of EA, why would you need to pay for an upgrade?I'll be porting the TLK documentation to TDN shortly after the MS4 release, so for the first week you might have to wing it, but the lighting system is very easy to use (it's all gui-based). Also I'll try to port the documentation in order, so the basics are posted to TDN first. If you have any questions in the meantime though just ask in the TSE forums and I'll be happy to help out.
#39
Nice! Thank you, John.
08/18/2006 (1:05 pm)
Quote:I'll be porting the TLK documentation to TDN shortly after the MS4 release, so for the first week you might have to wing it, but the lighting system is very easy to use (it's all gui-based). Also I'll try to port the documentation in order, so the basics are posted to TDN first. If you have any questions in the meantime though just ask in the TSE forums and I'll be happy to help out.
Nice! Thank you, John.
#40
08/18/2006 (3:15 pm)
@John: A gui based lightning system? Wooah! Could you post a screenshot? How does that look?
Torque Owner Jeremiah Fulbright
I am curious why the push to go ahead with a September release which would put at a month or a bit more, of time to optimize or bugfix (which isn't that long in most cases