iTGB 1.0 in the Wild

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Bryan Duke   (Oct 01, 2008 at 01:41 GMT)

Congrats on the release GG! I'm downloading iTGB now & I'm looking forward to developing my next game with it.

Jeremy Alessi   (Oct 01, 2008 at 01:51 GMT)

Hey that didn't take too long after all! Congrats, I look forward to using this in the future.

Michael Perry   (Oct 01, 2008 at 01:53 GMT)

Why didn't someone tell me there would be a shaky-cam recording of iTGB? I could have totally provided human beat-box audio!

Reminder- iTorque users, do not forget to update your forum subscriptions to include:

iTorque Private Forums
iTGB Forums
iTGE Forums

Both iTGB and iTGE are active and have their own doc feedback threads.

Jeremy Alessi   (Oct 01, 2008 at 01:54 GMT)

Oh, one question I have is on the system requirements page it says you need just a G4. AFAIK you need an Intel processor based Mac to develop with the iPhone SDK does that hold true for iTorque?

Jeremy Easoz   (Oct 01, 2008 at 02:04 GMT)

Nice job guys.
What other platforms are on the way?
(I know this will get taken the wrong way)
Just curious how thin TGE is going to get spread.

TGE, TGEA, TX, TGB,
Half Finished Tools, Half Finished Engines,
Pileing on the platforms.

Deborah Marshall   (Oct 01, 2008 at 03:27 GMT)

@Jeremy: We got plans, some announced, some not. We don't like to release product plans until they're solid and we know we can deliver, much like Brett did with iTorque. But here are some tidbits you can peruse, if you are so inclined:

TGEA
TX
TGB

Jeremy Easoz   (Oct 01, 2008 at 03:44 GMT)

@Deborah,
Wasn't trying to start any trouble and i've read all that stuff. Thanks for the links.

Deborah Marshall   (Oct 01, 2008 at 03:45 GMT)

@Jeremy: No prob. Just thought I'd post for anyone who hadn't caught any of that info.

Alex Rice   (Oct 01, 2008 at 05:25 GMT)

@Brett, your points well taken and as an indie developer I appreciate the chance to work with the engine sooner rather than later. I'll probably be able to make some contributions to the source now.

However, I don't think this release should have been named 1.0. The 1.0 moniker, combined with the slick marketing material on the product page will generate unrealistic expectations for many users. I also have some specific questions and concerns and have started posting them in the iTGB forums. Thanks

John Kanalakis   (Oct 01, 2008 at 06:18 GMT)

This looks great! Congratulations to all of you for pulling this together and releasing so quickly! I really can't wait to play with this!

John K.

Ed   (Oct 01, 2008 at 09:00 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

@Alex
Yep the mouse moving down-right every click is just too painful. I'm still hoping and wishing that it will be better within a month. In the meantime I'll be prototyping multiple game ideas in TGB.

Glenn Prince   (Oct 01, 2008 at 09:20 GMT)

Ok, I'm going to get to the important issue here. WTF happened to your toe dude ?!? It looks worse than some of the things I have done to mine playing soccer :-P

Nice work on the iTGB release. I have noticed that the majority of the larger games on the App store do have issues running properly, and until people can really figure out how to optimize their code it is going to be like that for a while. I would imagine that for people doing casual games or simple strategy style games, the framerate won't be an issue. Platformers, action games and heavy physics related games I would think would be slow until the code could be optimized.

Again, it looks good !!!

Jeremy Alessi   (Oct 01, 2008 at 16:23 GMT)

Anyone have a clue about the system requirements? Do you need an Intel based Mac for this?

Davey Jackson   (Oct 01, 2008 at 19:00 GMT)

This just in Apple Relaxes NDA requirement for App development www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2331498,00.asp

Patrick Swinnea   (Oct 01, 2008 at 23:52 GMT)

As you are probably already aware version 1.0 is broken in several key areas and unusable. Like everyone else, I've left feedback in the forums.

But beyond the usability issues, there doesn't seem to be ANYTHING in the game builder related to the iPhone. No way to set the level builder to iPhone resolution, nothing regarding multi-touch and no iPhone platform export option in the Project Builder. All of these things may be possible, but without at least a minimal user guide, I'm stumped on what to do with this. It doesn't help that the included example project fails to open.

I can't begin to imagine the work that goes into this, but the truth is I fully expected to jump on here today with glowing enthusiasm, and now I'm just sitting here hoping that one day this will all work as advertised.

A 1.0 product should have, at minimum:
-Basic usability
-The ability to do what it advertises
-Basic documentation

The product page advertises this as "a straightforward process" with a "full-featured WYSIWYG realtime editor, easy integration with many 3D modeling packages, a powerful scripting language and more."

I agree with Alex that your marketing page (and the reason I spent $750 for TGB Pro and iTGB) will generate unrealistic expectations. I feel like I'm one of those people who had those expectations. I expected to be able to use iTGB to build iPhone games. Now I'm being told that I ALSO need to be very comfortable with C++ or Objective-C! If I were very comfortable with those languages I would probably have stuck to programming in XCode and Apple's free SDK. I moved from Unity 3D to TGB expecting a comparable easy-to-use solution. I want a button that says "export for iPhone" and I want that export to drop right into the SDK for certificate signing and whatnot. I don't think that's an unrealistic expectation given the way iTGB is positioned on your marketing page.

So now I'm invested in Torque, financially and (more importantly), with my time. The community is great and I already have ideas for things I want to contribute to TDN in the future. So I'm rooting for all this to come together. I know Michael Perry is working fast and furious on the docs. Paul Foster has offered help in the forums. Michael also said a fix is in the works. And I know you said in your post that this may not be indie-ready yet. So at which version does "iTorque Indie" become an indie product?

Finally, there are many current iPhone games that run at a smooth framerate: Space Out, Blue Skies, Billy Frontier, Solar Quest. Toy Bot, Break Classic, Cowabunga, Dreigit and Star Smasher are all physics based action games that run very smoothly.

If TorqueScript alone isn't able to achieve at least 25fps, please provide a link to some documentation regarding this script to code process (or at least point to an example of what this is).

I've tried to write this up as respectfully as possible, without insulting everyone who has worked so hard on this. However, I feel justified in saying that this is not a 1.0 product. I would have preferred it to have been pushed back and fully tested before being released, and with a basic user guide. I know you wanted to get it out as soon as possible, but it just isn't ready.

I wanted to get this all down because while I know basic UI bugs will get fixed, I feel I misunderstood what this product promised, and I'm taking the risk of looking like a jerk for the sake of providing feedback on how I expect it to work. I know I'm not the only one feeling this way.

I'll continue working on new projects in TGB 1.7.4, and look forward to the next release of iTGB.
Edited on Oct 01, 2008 23:58 GMT

Brett Seyler   (Oct 02, 2008 at 01:42 GMT)

@Patrick & others: You're absolutely right. Perhaps we should have not labeled this a 1.0 release. It is NOT easy to use yet and as I mentioned in the blog, it's borderline "Indie ready." There were definitely some specific issues with this particular release that we're going to resolve very quickly. Some of the larger pieces (like a button that just builds and optimizes your TGB project) will take longer. We're working on them. The alternative to making iTGB available when we did seemed less attractive to the community. "It's done when it's done" can be taken too far and you end up with development cycles that shelter a product too long so that in the same time frame, a weaker product emerges. I'm trying to be as straight as I can with people who are wondering whether they should be working with iTGB yet. I realize there were things we missed in this release. Those are being addressed and you should see an update quickly. After that, the workflow for iTGB you'll very soon see is:

1. Create your game using TGB 1.7.4 with the resolution fixes that allow iPhone screen res targets (we may do a 1.7.5 update soon rolling these resolution changes in...this was supposed to happen a few weeks ago).

2. Use iTGB to deploy your game unedited to the iPhone (no script-to-code conversion necessary at this stage)

3. See your game running, speed may be slow.

4. Continue iterating on your game using 1.7.4. When you get near the final stages, begin your optimization work.

5. Scripts-to-code helps dramatically.

6. Texture optimizations helps dramatically.

7. Efficient use of callbacks and minimal use of script calculations help dramatically


Future versions of iTGB (which you'll receive free) should make steps 5 and 3 either go away or be much less cumbersome.

That's the best we can do right now. I hope it's sufficient for your project. My goal is to see everyone who wants their Torque game on the iPhone to succeed. Game development is not easy on the PC. It's MUCH harder on embedded systems like the iPhone. We'll make it as easy as we can. There's no question at all though that working with iTGB, even as is, provides a huge leg up on those creating games in Objective-C or porting your TGB project directly. Even so, we'll make it better.

Bryan Duke   (Oct 02, 2008 at 02:19 GMT)

FWIW, I thought Brett was pretty clear in his original description of the iTGB status. I for one am glad they released it when they did. This way, us indies can get going on things (learning basics at the very least). Development of any software isn't trivial - iTGB & iTGE included. Even if the big green go button isn't in this version, I'm more happy to be working with what's been released than sitting around waiting for it to be absolutely perfect.

I can't imagine even with a full-up game engine to not have to know any actual computer language. iPhone development is done in Objective-C (or C/C++), so if you want to develop for the iPhone you should learn it. My guess is all developers will have to touch *some* C flavor before they release a game with any engine. I had never touched Obj-C before I started developing my first app...it was complete & in the App Store about 6 weeks after starting. I don't want to start a flame war here, but I think GG has been very honest & transparent about what they've released. It doesn't bother me if you call it 0.99 or 1.0.

Brett Seyler   (Oct 02, 2008 at 02:46 GMT)

@Glenn: Shit! I forgot to edit out my beat up toe. I'll neither confirm nor deny that it's purple as a result of too much asskicking.

Alex Rice   (Oct 02, 2008 at 03:38 GMT)

@Bryan- wow 6 weeks to develop a CocoaTouch game and published to the app store. I guess you will be publishing iTGB based games by like next Thursday then? You rule.

Alex Rice   (Oct 02, 2008 at 03:44 GMT)

@Brett: thanks for the workflow/roadmap. It helps a lot! As a developer with a Objective-C and UIKit experience, I can vouch that TGB does provide a "huge leg up" over straight Obj-C development! I am thrillled with Houdini HD and the DTS exporter, for example. OK cheers.

Bryan Duke   (Oct 02, 2008 at 03:44 GMT)

@Alex - Ha! Yeah, I'm thinking next Thursday or Friday for the release of my first 5 games with iTGB. ;)

Patrick Swinnea   (Oct 02, 2008 at 03:57 GMT)

@Brett: Thanks for addressing concerns. I look forward to future releases.

@Bryan: I understand what you're saying, but I think I should clarify that it isn't a matter of learning Obj-C or not, it's a matter of WHICH language to learn and where to spend my "code learning" time.

I'll use Unity 3D as an example. In Unity you can code your entire game in JavaScript (or C#), then hit export for Mac, Windows, embedded html web player or Mac Dashboard Widget. All from that same Javascript.
http://unity3d.com/unity/features/scripting

I assume TGB works in a similar way for Mac and Windows exports, though I have to admit I came over to Torque FOR iPhone developing so I'm not as familiar with the Mac and Windows export options.

Back to the Unity example, in all of those cases the only required codebase to learn is the one INSIDE the game builder. I assume those Unity Mac and Dashboard widgets are compiled in Obj-C, but that work is done by the game building program. The program translates its own native programming language to your platform of choice.

When I discovered iTGB I realized that I could create better games sooner by focusing my learning time on TGB and TorqueScript. I have nothing against learning Obj-C, but given my experience with Unity exports, I expected iTGB to work in a similar way by translating that TorqueScript into the iPhone's Obj-C.

Like many others here I pre-ordered and have been looking forward to Sept 30th to see how my 1.7.4 prototypes will transfer over to the iPhone. To find out TODAY that I also need to polish up on Obj-C to use iTGB, it honestly hit me as kind of a shock. If I had known that I would need to be "very comfortable" with it I would have put some more time towards it, but given my above examples you can see how it's not unreasonable to expect iTGB to make that Obj-C translation automatically (and in fact I expected that to be one of the basic functions of the program).

So my questions are many - I need to know Obj-C. Fine. But where do I need to use it? Where does it fit into the process of going from iTGB to iPhone? I'll learn what I need to learn to do the job. I just don't know where to start and there aren't any docs to suggest a direction to move in. As you know, the iPhone SDK contains a HUGE amount of documents, and I've read through a fair amount of them. But working that into an iTGB workflow? No idea where to begin.

All of this goes hand in hand with documentation, which the product also lacks (which I know is currently being worked on diligently). For an indie branded product - plain and simple - it should make doing the job intuitive, or it should provide documentation on the quirks.

For those with more coding experience, yes, I agree it's nice to have an early build. For the rest of us, it's frustrating. But just because I'm not an Obj-C expert doesn't mean I'm not willing to learn it. I just didn't know I would need it.
Edited on Oct 02, 2008 04:00 GMT

Ed   (Oct 02, 2008 at 04:34 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

@Alex
His game was Air Hockey, which is top 9 on the last time I checked. So six weeks is more than enough time to finish an app like it. Congrats on the success of that App btw Bryan.

@Brett
*Crosses fingers for docs and usability to improve within a month*
Edited on Oct 02, 2008 04:35 GMT

Davey Jackson   (Oct 02, 2008 at 09:30 GMT)

@ Patrick: I think you've made your points well, and we (garagegames) understand where you are coming from.

The reason we got into business was to help make making games more accessible. When the studio opened our philosophy was to trust that, in capable hands, talented people would raise to the top levels of proficiency with Torque quickly, and the people who 'got it' would love it. We built a game, released the engine, iterated on the engine, added features, fixed some bugs, built another game... wash and repeat. We back filled our getting stated resources and documentation at the same time we were iterating on the design and adding new features. However, as we became more concerned about our "big" launches, and our 'Out-of Box' experience, our feature wish lists got longer and longer and the wait period between releases grew. While we intended for this to lead to higher quality initial launches, it did not help us and it did not help us meet our goals because it ended up cutting us off from one of our most important resources: our user community. -- Who are remarkably adept and keeping us honest about the frustrating parts of working with our software, and recommending specific usability improvements --.

I'm particularly impressed with Bryan's approach: He shipped a game with the tools he had, and now he's looking forward to leveraging the tools we built for his next title( Due next Friday. Bryan don't be late. : )) . I expect he'll have a high degree of success with iTorque, because he knows what it's good at and he knows where rolling his own will be a better choice for his game. IMO a game developer should always have that mind set.

This is a fast industry, and the technology has to move very fast as welI. In saying this, I don't mean to justify being reckless with our product releases, and I don't think we have in this case. But, we are eager to share what we've created to help achieve our goal of making making games for the iPhone easier.

--d

M. Stolley   (Oct 02, 2008 at 10:30 GMT)

I read all of the coments here and must say that i am a little bit frustrated.
You, the garagegames people are working hard to get things done. I understand that und respekt that. Also i understand Bryan Duke points.

But know i read some comments in this thread that i read before in the "The iPhone Announcement" and "iTorque Update" thread.
To be true i bought iTGB before the 30. september not only becouse of a second license but mainly to start converting my game, test it, work on the file size and on and on. As i read the first anouncement that the indie verson will come on the 30. september, i start to make a 2d game just becouse of this with TGB 1.7.4.
In the threads before i read that i can buy the commercial version know but have no dokumentation, just an unready produkt but have the chance to start working with.

You wrote this:
Q. I'm an Indie. Why can't I license iTorque at the Indie price now?
A. We're concerned that the product will be too difficult to work with for most amateur hobbyist developers at this stage, so only after we're satisfied that the documentation is solid and learning curve is not so steep will we roll this out under the Indie License.

So i thought, ok i am waiting till the end of september and than i get something indie/hobbyist friendly but now i get about the same as the commercial version earlier only a bit cheaper. But that is not what i want and not what you make me awaiting with your information before this thread.
But know you pretend that everything is as it should be just we have to learn objective-c and so..
That is not the right way, i think.

I am a good customer, bought many things in your shop, also have more than one license of most of you engines so you see i trust in you. But now i feel handled the wrong way.

So you actual say that i can start working with the 1.0 version and you have made a game ......
If i only take the problem with the mouse, i ask how can i work with this, how can you.

Yes i am an indie more like an amateur user but that is the reason i bought the indie version with the hope in the promised indie features and not bought the commercial version.

I tell you something. I am also using other engines also one with a future release to the iPhone but trusted in you, garagegames and the iTGB version that i throw my money on you and not them and know you imply that i am on the wrong site becouse the version 1.0 is there and i can use it.

If i know that 1.0 will be like this i would have saved my money and spend it on the other engine. Do not misunderstand me. I then have my eye on iTGB and buy it when it is a true indie version becouse i see the capability of it. It is just a matter of time and recource management.

I hope that i have offended nobody and that you see my point that is also a little the point of some others.

Bryan Duke   (Oct 02, 2008 at 14:10 GMT)

@Alex Thanks!

@Davey Friday, I know. Stupid deadlines! I wonder if I can skip that family reunion this weekend. Hmmmm.

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