Space Sim in the Torque Game Engine - Introduction

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Richard_H   (Jul 04, 2007 at 16:39 GMT)

I can't wait to see how this ends up. It could be very interesting, good luck.

Ian Omroth Hardingham   (Jul 04, 2007 at 16:51 GMT)

Rob, most of the above is actually pretty straightforward in TGE. However, 6 is going to cause a lot of problems. I'd possibly consider alternative solutions to getting this.

Josh Caba   (Jul 04, 2007 at 17:16 GMT)

Sounds great.

Johnny Hill   (Jul 04, 2007 at 18:51 GMT)

Rob In your research did you ever come across David "Lightwave Dave" aka "Fulcrum" Wyand article about using TNL to bridge multiple instances of TGE/TGEA together to create a space simulation that functions ala Star Trek.

Its a very good read tech wise on how he did it :)

Klingons

This is something I threw together in Constructor, Curves and smooth lines eats a lot of brush budget so personally I build more Anime style battlecrusiers that are more angular and doesnt choke constructor as much but I thought this one would be more approriate to what type of Space Sim system David was building. The ship is just a enclosed interior and the simulation pretty much plays out around this.



Number 6. isnt really that hard it depends on how bad you want to simulate a actual planetfall, I much prefer old roddenbery methods if you approach a planet you go into a standard orbit and just teleport down. plus you can beam down anything you need even personal vehicles if you have then in your ship inventory.

I got more stuff but work is keeping me so so busy its kinda sad to me I would much prefer to do this all the time instead of knocking out tile patterns LOL. but my bills were coming a lot faster then my dreams heh.
Edited on Jul 04, 2007 19:00 GMT

Rob Evans   (Jul 04, 2007 at 19:19 GMT)

@Ian - The way I'm planning on doing it is to allow the player to fly to a certain point (where the planet is still just a large sphere) then switch to a loading cut-scene and then load a mission file with terrain and buildings to land on etc. Do you think that is viable? Any suggestions to make it "cooler"? :o)

@Johnny - Thanks for that link... hadn't seen that before and should come in VERY handy! In terms of the transition to planets, doing it roddenbery style is actually a pretty good idea - I'll probably fall back to this if I can't get a satisfactory result in my planned way.

And dude, I know what you mean about the bills! I wish I could spend all day on my projects... we'd all benefit from a much more creative society if none of us had to work... but hey, maybe I can get my employer to sponsor my project! LOL.

James Laker (BurNinG)   (Jul 05, 2007 at 08:16 GMT)

I have been working on a Space game for the last 8 months with TGEA. Everything is pretty easy to do. I have also wondered how to achieve the landing on planets.

There are different ways, depending on what you want exactly.
The first will be using a little video clip that plays when you enter a trigger around the Planet.

Dont forget to think about what the other players see... Do you just dissapear, fade away, have cool effect?
In my own game (Solar Battles) the gameplay excludes it, but the spawning effect uses the explosion code with a DTS. It works very good.

Another effect you can use is by changing FOV (Also done with a trigger before loading the Planet, Base or whatever you plan on using the planet for.

In Freelancer you needed to use Landing Gates. This worked very well in my opninion. So when you get too close to planet you will die (after being warned that the gravity is getting hold of you or something like that).

No. 1 - 3 can be done in less than 5min.

Rob Evans   (Jul 05, 2007 at 08:35 GMT)

@James - Yeah, I've always liked the freelancer approach, however I keep getting nostalgic about my Elite: First Encounters days when flying down to a planet was made to look easy and although the planet had nothing on it except some randomly generated terrain, for it's time it was awesome!

James Laker (BurNinG)   (Jul 05, 2007 at 08:47 GMT)

The problem is that people would expect this highly detailed planet when they get closer... That just uses too much video ram. I guess you can use a blur effect as you get closer (and change the FOV).

Rob Evans   (Jul 05, 2007 at 08:49 GMT)

Indeed... I think the freelancer approach is best. It also adds a bit of extra tension if you are in trouble and need to land fast, you've got to get to a docking ring first!

Rob Evans   (Jul 05, 2007 at 08:52 GMT)

Marvel at my pathetic attempt at space stations! Noobs of the art world unite! LOL




Edited on Jul 05, 2007 10:40 GMT

Rob Evans   (Jul 05, 2007 at 13:29 GMT)

Some trade lanes ala Freelancer:






Edited on Jul 05, 2007 13:30 GMT

Rob Evans   (Jul 05, 2007 at 13:30 GMT)

Does anyone have any ideas how best to create a sort of wormhole effect when travelling through the trade lanes? If you've ever played freelancer you'll know what I mean! Sort of a tube around the inside of the lane rings that has a speedy feel to the travel.
Edited on Jul 05, 2007 13:31 GMT

Andy Hawkins   (Jul 05, 2007 at 14:52 GMT)

For the warp effect use a tube and animate the texture coordinates.

I'll be watching the progress of this mod. I need this sort of thing for my game.

Regarding the screenshots - if you feel they are noobish, don't worry. There are so few good space sims, that people can forgive the graphics, as long as the game play is there.

Rob Evans   (Jul 05, 2007 at 15:35 GMT)

Awesome idea... how do I animate the texture co-ords? LOL. Don't worry, I'll take a look around the forums for it... I'm not lazy... honest :o)

James Laker (BurNinG)   (Jul 05, 2007 at 15:38 GMT)

It's a little harder than just making a tube and using an animated texture... Esp in a server-client based game. You dont want the others to see it so it neds to be client side.
When do you start showing it?
Where is your Ship position going to be in the world when you warp? Have you tested big maps? I know there's no terrain, but have you actually tried flying 4 hours in a direction? I remember having some problems with that and TGE (the main reason for me moving to TGEA)

I like your stations btw...

Rob Evans   (Jul 05, 2007 at 15:44 GMT)

Hey James...

Yeah it would definitely have to be client-side. The warp tunnels in the trade lanes basically appear when a player flies into a ring from either direction.

Here is an image of freelancer with a ship going through a trade lane. You fly into a ring, then the computer takes over flight and speeds you to the other end.



I haven't tested big maps yet, however, what are the general issues? Why is TGEA better for this?
Edited on Jul 05, 2007 15:45 GMT

James Laker (BurNinG)   (Jul 05, 2007 at 16:12 GMT)

I still have Freelancer installed on my PC.. And have been looking at alot of space games lately.

The problem with a Spacegames, Torque and one big world would be the loading for one, since all the datablocks needs to be loaded before the game. I would suggest having only part of the worlds, and swtiching maps from going from system to system...

Im not sure what the actual problem is when using stock Torque. Just test it and you'll see jittering. This is because of precision problems and (guessing here) interpolation.. I know had problems when moving too far away but that problem went away when I used TGEA.

There are limitations when using (stock) Torque for Spacegames you'll only find as you go along. It's not as easy as changing a skybox, changing gravity, and adding flying vehicles. But these problems you'll find is in other Space games too sometimes. But dont let that stop you, I strongly believe that the Space Game Genre should and can be taken over by indies ;)

Rob Evans   (Jul 05, 2007 at 16:15 GMT)

:) It's not going to be easy... that I know for sure. The other issue I want to address is having large planets like this:



If I try to make anything that big in Torque Constructor it fails. Should I be making planets with dts files?

James Laker (BurNinG)   (Jul 05, 2007 at 16:37 GMT)

Yep... dts is the way to go... But again, there's problems with that too because of its size.
Word of advice... Scale down EVERY before you start. That will make ALOT of headaches go away.

Rob Evans   (Jul 05, 2007 at 16:39 GMT)

James, where are you at with your game? Are there any screenshots available? Thanks for the scale tip!

James Laker (BurNinG)   (Jul 05, 2007 at 16:46 GMT)

There are VERY early alpha screenshots here. Mainly been working the "insides" which doesn't really produce pretty screenshots... But I'm about 95% feature complete. So the screenshots looks weak and does not represent the final product at all.

If you're interested, there's a vacancy for a person that knows Constructor ;-)

Rob Evans   (Jul 05, 2007 at 16:57 GMT)

Your game looks excellent! Makes me think I shouldn't bother trying to make mine! LOL.

I wouldn't say I "know" constructor! But I'm happy to give you anything you think might help. I've literally only just made those space stations but they're not even properly textured.

Have you seen this game:

fl-tw.com/Infinity/infinity_combat_proto.php

It's damn amazing what he's put together. Apparently, there's only one developer although he has help on the art side! Still... graphically it's beyond anything I've seen before, even beats eve!

James Laker (BurNinG)   (Jul 05, 2007 at 17:17 GMT)

There's always room for Space Games! The genre has been neglected... At the moment there's only X3 that is any good... And they put the bar right up there.

Seen Infinity too... Very nice!

Donald \"Yadot\" Harris   (Jul 05, 2007 at 21:11 GMT)

This is way to neat. I look forward to seeing a completed mod on this. If you do charge a fee I would be willing to pay as I need something like this for my larger project.


I need more developers...

Johnny Hill   (Jul 05, 2007 at 22:08 GMT)

Hey Rob,

Here is more good info, plus Mike released a nice bit of code for creating a sky sphere. and in one of his post he mention how he refined it to make a renderable sphere for planets.

Kuiper

EDIT: NVM heh I seen your post at the end
Edited on Jul 05, 2007 22:11 GMT

Andy Hawkins   (Jul 05, 2007 at 22:50 GMT)

Here's how I suggested doing sectors in space...

To deal with 10,000 unit limits you could scale everything down and then break space into sectors. This would be ideal for scanners anyway. You would need to place items all around in sectors further than 10,000 so you could see them, then as you approach a boundary, displace everything by 10,000 minus your distance from the boundary. Keep track of the displacement and divide by 10,000 would yield the sector you are currently in, giving you a frame of reference for all objects in space, and your position relative to them all.

When looking at how Freelancer does it, there is a noticeable jerk when you jump into a new sector which would seem to be when everything gets instanced.

Here some more space game links on GG pages...
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=21656

www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=27366

www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=25020

www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=33660

www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=62522

James Laker (BurNinG)   (Jul 06, 2007 at 08:00 GMT)

Im really glad the responses about Space Games are this good. Just confirms that there's room for something great.

Rob Evans   (Jul 06, 2007 at 10:08 GMT)

Indeed, thank you everyone for your enthusiastic responses

Stephan (viKKing) Bondier   (Jul 06, 2007 at 11:50 GMT)

I can only encourage you Rod (edited - damn'it :/).
I would have prepared the stars/systems/debris generation in the beginning to avoid missing something at a later stage though.

I would like to recommend two free space games for inspiration purpose:
Beyond the Red Line, based upon the new Battlestar Galactica TV show and this Wing Commander sequel, I don't think I have to present it, do I? ;)
Edited on Jul 06, 2007 11:50 GMT

David \"Fulcrum\" Wyand   (Jul 06, 2007 at 22:06 GMT)

Greetings!

I'm impressed that someone still remembers my ancient .plan. Hopefully some day soon I'll be able to provide an update to it. I'm still working on my idea, although at a snails pace it seems. I've also switched over to Python for the backend server. :o)

The issues with travelling great distances in any game engine usually have to do with floating point instability. The further you move from the origin the greater the error. There's a good description and possible solution in Game Programming Gems 4 chapter 2.3: Solving Accuracy Problems in Large World Coordinates.

It essentially comes down to keeping track of a sector and a point within the sector for every object. The trick of renormalizing the coordinate system can work on the client, but you still need to track everything within a unified coordinate system on the server (assuming a multiplayer game).

- LightWave Dave

Rob Evans   (Jul 09, 2007 at 16:29 GMT)

Hmm... I like the displacement idea. Easy to implement I think.

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