Lion, and Tigers and Lawyers , ohh my!

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Stephan (viKKing) Bondier   (Sep 17, 2006 at 22:28 GMT)

It s***s.
You don't even need such an agreement in France. Any job done within "legal" worked time are property of your boss. That's a work rule, they don't need agreement to be signed to p**s you off.

Can't you mess the code to death?

STef

Alexander "taualex" Gaevoy   (Sep 17, 2006 at 23:20 GMT)

They've been just jerks - they know they will not be able to finish it or make a lot of profit from it. If they think sp - they are plain stupid - this game can hardly make 10k - they will spend about that amount in a court :). Rodney, be smarter then - remove some code (put stubs, so it compiles and runs) - give them the remains. Your next move - find a new name for your game, make new art, use your old code - publish it, dont put your name in credits - open LLC - put its name in credits. Let them be happy and make them a laugh stock. Be agressive ;)

My 2 cents.

Anton Bursch   (Sep 17, 2006 at 23:31 GMT)

I worked a contract for a charity once. One of those government grant charities. I was contracted to do an application for them. My first $50/hour piece of work. It was 2 months long. At the end of the contract, I went to get my second half payment after final delivery. The head of the charity had just gotten back from a 2 month company paid vacation to some islands somewhere. He was supposed to be vacactioning/getting a big grant from some company. It didn't work out.

He decided that they needed to cut some cost quick because they were over their heads after not getting that grant. He decided to try to back out of paying me. This was still early on for me, so, I didn't understand the importants of stipulations in contracts. I hadn't specified exactly what the application would be and he tried to pull a fast one and say that he hadn't authorized most of the work I had done and that it wasn't in a written agreement so they weren't going to pay for it.

Now, that second half of the payment was for a month worth of work. Not getting paid for it was really going to screw me over. I told them how bad it was for them to try to do something like this, but as far as I could see they could get away with it. So, what did I do?

I went home, logged onto their internet/intranet servers, and I deleted all of the work I had done for them. Everything... it essentially shut them and all of the satellite offices who were now using my application for all of the company data down. If they weren't going to pay, they sure as hell weren't going to keep my work. I didn't care if it totally screwed them over, they screwed me first. Then I went and took a nap.

A couple hours later the phone woke me up and they had my checks ready for me. Boy were they nice to me and even a little shaken when I saw them. I put the work back on their servers. And they learned an important lesson:

Don't fuck over the person who is the only one who knows how your shit works.

It's right up there with: don't fuck with people who prepare your food for you.

Rex   (Sep 17, 2006 at 23:43 GMT)

Bottom line; you cut your own deal. If the deal you cut isn't 'equitable' later on...oh well; measure twice, cut once, ;). My carreer in ShowBusiness has lasted close to 24 years now[and still chuggin']...wonder why? I cut my deals to my specs...or let the Union that represents my Labor do so. You want something done you can't do; it costs XXX. If you can't pay XXX...find someone else to do the work.

Mark Berry   (Sep 18, 2006 at 01:40 GMT)

Funnily enough, I'm off to see a solicitor about a subcontractor tomorrow.

Contracts can be a bitch, and most are needlessly wordy. I always feel that if a contract is very long, there must be something hidden in it, and distrust the people wanting me to sign it and so pay extra attention.

All my contracts are plain english and fit on a single page.

Although I would not go to Antons lengths, I have had to threaten to remove work I have done before, and that has always done the trick. At the bottom of every invoice or quote, it says that the goods belong to me until FULLY paid for.

If anyone is interested, I have some contracts I could probably share that have worked well for me, but then I'm not a solicitor :-)

Anton Bursch   (Sep 18, 2006 at 07:58 GMT)

I was pretty pissed at them more than I would have normally been because they were a charity. I also trusted them more because they were a charity and I didn't think I'd need to be so careful with them. I wouldn't do the same thing today. I would probably just sue them. The publicity of the lawsuit would be enough to force them to pay to avoid the scandel.

Rodney Rindels - Torqued   (Sep 18, 2006 at 11:34 GMT)

The issue of why I left anyway because of something similar, the company was in the process of being sold, and my contract payments were late , or being neglected almost entirely. They are just trying to teach me a lesson since I held so much of their "success" in my hands, and It hurt their project goals with me pulling up stakes.

But like I said, I just wanted indies to be aware, even if your hurting for revenue, dont rush into signing contracts without really reading them first and taking some solid due diligence into consideration. Most of the time you dont need a lawyer if you can read, and have the ability to negotiate some T's and C's. But if the contracts are long and have losts of injunction clauses, etc. It should only cost a few hundred bucks to get it reviewed by a legal "vampire" before entering into the agreement.

Doug Linley   (Sep 18, 2006 at 14:17 GMT)

That bites Rodney. I was really looking forward to the game. It's been interesting reading all of these, as I would like to start taking on contract work soon, and I'm very inexperienced working as a contractor.

Mark - I would love to the see the contracts you'd be willing to share. you can reach me at doug.linley@cabalgames.com.

Rodney - Get back into the IRC channel sometime :)

Anton Bursch   (Sep 18, 2006 at 14:26 GMT)

Yeah, I figured that's what happened to you. I was telling my wife about this. I said 'he probably left them and they were pissed and they are being dicks about it'.

I'm glad you posted this. That's one bad thing about business... greedy self-centered assholes. This may be an industry that makes fun, but it's filled with people who want would sell their own children for a buck.

Jonathon Stevens   (Sep 18, 2006 at 18:39 GMT)

@Rodney - Always, ALWAYS make sure you know who owns the work you do. That's first and foremost of anything I ever build. I don't always have to own what I build, but I [bold]always[/bold] know who does own it. Tough break.

@Stephan, Alexander - You should never maliciously remove code or break code that you deliver to them or that they are going to use. Even if YOU owned the code that you did this to, they could sue you and in most states would win. Be the bigger person and either sue them or move on.

@Anton - A bit drastic, but I'm glad it worked out for you in the end. Like I said above, this is a sticky situation that could go from a guaranteed win on your end to a guaranteed win on theirs based on your actions. Two wrongs don't make a right. (I'll leave the stupid directional puns out this time =D) In all fairness, Rodney signed the contract that stated they'd own the work, so he has no right to attempt to take that work. If he didn't read that section, no one is to blame but him. The people funding (I'm guessing they were funding it) the project might not have funded it had they not retained control.

My contracts are usually 5 - 8 pages in length with a detailed work agreement outlining anything major or semi-major and many smaller points of what I'm going to develop. Be particular and get it in writing or you'll end up on the wrong side of the stick.

@Mark - long wordy contracts aren't just from people who are trying to take advantage of others, they are there to clearly define what's expected so NO ONE is surprised by an outcome that's legal.

Anton Bursch   (Sep 18, 2006 at 22:20 GMT)

@Jonathon Stevens

Not letting someone steal my hardwork by taking it back from them is a right not a wrong. It's not wrong to take back what is yours. Though, like I said, now I would have gone the less direct route and sued them. But what I did was the same as a store owner grabbing a stolen item out of the hands of a thief. It's not wrong to not let someone steal from you. If they had a gun to my head(like a mugging), sure, I would have happily walked away. But they were just a big company who thought they could take advantage of one single person. It was all a bluff from them. I called it. I got my payment and they got to keep the work they hired me for. But again, today, I would sue them. No questions.

Jonathon Stevens   (Sep 18, 2006 at 22:41 GMT)

@Anton - It's not considered stealing in this case. I'm not saying what they did was right or what you did should be considered wrong, I'm merely stating what the courts of most states would say. If you build a program for someone and they don't complete their end of the bargain and you remove your program, causing loss of business or money to the company, then you can be sued and you will, in most cases, loose. Now, if you want the ability to do that, make sure it's in the contract that YOU own all code, binaries, etc. and that you can and will pull ALL of it back if you aren't paid in full.

Just so you are clear of my intentions, as you seem to think I'm saying what they did was right, I don't agree with what they did. I don't say what you did was morally or in MY mind wrong. What I think and believe doesn't make a damn in a court of law. They have laws set up to stop people from doing what you did, even if you and everyone who knows the situation thinks you were justified. I'm merely saying "don't risk it" and sue them next time as you said you would =).

Edit: And about lawyers being 'vampires', well not all are. If it weren't for lawyers, no software would be safe, most companies wouldn't exist, etc. etc.
Edited on Sep 18, 2006 22:42 GMT

Anton Bursch   (Sep 19, 2006 at 00:27 GMT)

@jonathon stevens

yeah, i'd never pull code again. and i'll never work without a firm contract ever again either.

Andrew Douglas   (Sep 19, 2006 at 01:14 GMT)

Hmmm. Software isn't safe as it is. Not to disparage anyone, and I know some fine people who are lawyers who do darn fine work... but it's my firm belief that Lawyers (and the lawyers that become politicians are included in this) are single-handedly responsible for a huge burden on our economy. By this I mean, everything in this country is more expensive than it should be... for a lot of reasons mind you... but lawyers are responsible for a huge percentage of it. The broken patent system is a fine example, but even just the $200 (minimum) per hour legal fees they charge have a very direct impact on the cost of doing business. The more expensive it is to do business, the more expensive products have to be to compensate. Our letigious society wasn't always this way, and every suit, counter-suit and class-action suit makes it easier for the next person to sue someone else. We need fewer laws, not more laws, we need to reduce the cost of doing business in the country, and we need some serious tort reform.

I could also go on and on about a flat tax versus an income tax, too... or a whole range of other rants, but the point being - the legal system in the country is a self-perpetuating and largely unchecked oligarchy. The best way, that I can see, to accomplish any kind of change is for people to reduce their demand for lawyers... read your own contracts for example... Don't sue people is another. It may seem idealistic or simple-minded but the fewer suits, the fewer lawyers that are needed... and if nothing else, this country has proven time and time again that capitalism and a (mostly) free market generally will win out in time. I don't want a world without lawyers, I just want a world where lawyers aren't responsible for billions of dollars in frivolous law suits every year and millions of hours of wasted time and energy that could be better spent pursuing ... well... anything but silly law suits.

Okay, I'm off my soap box. Sorry. Move along. Nothing to see here. :)
-Andrew

[edit: billions, not trillions.. sorry got carried away. Tort in the US is about 2.2% of the gdp, which I believe comes out to about $275 billion per year)
Edited on Sep 19, 2006 01:26 GMT

Alan Hembra   (Sep 19, 2006 at 15:28 GMT)

At least you don't have to turn over the stuff you purchased with your own money from GG since the license is non-transferrable - I hope.

Anyway, that is the one clause almost every company has and I've always hated it. It should say that you work on while they are paying you. It should never include your after hours work. My opinion of course.

Ben Ewing   (Sep 19, 2006 at 23:17 GMT)

Bull Sh*t man, they cant steal your game!
IT was realy awesome looking....
Maybe you could screw it up, or make it do something realy annoying before you hand it over...

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