Ninjas vs. Pirates: The Real Work has Just Begun

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Andy Schatz   (Apr 20, 2006 at 00:24 GMT)

Matt Damon is contributing to your project? Is he a Ninja or a Pirate?

I suppose he gets that sort of thing all the time. Like being named Michael Bolton.

Ishbuu   (Apr 20, 2006 at 02:46 GMT)

Looking good!

As a side note, you might want to tone down certain *bits* on the female ninja, it would be akward to be stealthy with.... those..... that big...... yeah....

[Ishbuu]

Todd Pickens   (Apr 20, 2006 at 04:48 GMT)

Yup, ...she has pretty big hands.

BigPapa   (Apr 20, 2006 at 05:05 GMT)

For a female pirate, i suggest you go with something like Peggy from Leisure Suit Larry: Love for Sail :)

Matt Damon   (Apr 20, 2006 at 05:08 GMT)

Everything was fine until that no talent ass clown came around. I shouldn't have to change my name, he's the one who sucks.

N R Bharathae   (Apr 20, 2006 at 11:09 GMT)

Jon and I had a few conversations about the female ninja and how to aproach her design. And while she doesn't have the typical slim oriental build in the final cut it came down to the fact that we're both fans of big hands :P

@BigPapa- The female pirate will serve as a counter to the bucksome female ninja and you will be completely horrified when you see her.

Alan Hembra   (Apr 20, 2006 at 12:53 GMT)

It's so nice that your not learning from the mistakes of the mainstream game community and continuing the over sexualizaiton of females so you can alienate potentially 50% of the possible player base (aka female gamers). The time for "Laura Croft" female characters is over. If you want to be taken seriously as a mature and in touch developer and not as a bunch of immature horny geek teenagers who can't find a girlfriendyou ought to tone down the female assets. But then I'm sure you'll just chalk this up as a "rant" and continue on even though you could make it a female friendly and still be "fun". As an indie we all ought to be making our games accessible to the as many potential players as possible.

I'd also suggest you read

N R Bharathae   (Apr 20, 2006 at 14:36 GMT)

Thanks for your opinion, Alan. I am a husband and the father of four boys... not an oversexed teenager. I acknowledge where you're coming from and maybe its a mistake to have large-breasted women in today's over-saturated market. But I don't think it is. And you're right, I do think your post is a rant.

On a personal note if you want sink deep in the political correctness of the female dominated value system that drives nearly every market know to man, go right ahead. But Jon laid out a number of features for NvP when I first signed on and sucking up to majority rule wasn't one of them. He wants to make a fun game that has a variety of characters that players can relate to and yes one of them is a beautiful, elegant woman... with large breasts.

Aside from my personal appreciation for the female form I guarantee Ninjs versus Pirates won't suffer from a lack of beta-testers or retail purchasers because one of its female characters has a little bounce in her stride.

Todd Pickens   (Apr 20, 2006 at 14:53 GMT)

All kidding aside,

The question of the level of "sexuality" in any aspect of a games design is something that should be taken seriously and carefully considered.

However, it is probably a subject worthy of its own thread. In fact I think it would be a good and worth while discussion which is not explored often or seriously enough.

@ Alan, you seem to feel very strongly about it. But I would have to challenge you with the question that you seem to be far more concerned about the size of a characters breast, than the fact that the game is about running around and killing each other in all manner and fashion.

Clearly this game is not targeted at 10 year olds. The character don't do anything even remotely sexual in the game. Would you feel better if the same character were carrying 70 pound of fat? Or how about the heroin thin look of most models and starlets today?

I am not trying to take any shots here, just asking you to clarify you thoughts in case I misunderstand you, or explore them a little further.

Alan Hembra   (Apr 20, 2006 at 15:01 GMT)

I apologize for coming across so harsh Jon. I didn't mean for that to be accusatory. I shoulda re-read that before posting it and toned it down.

You do make a good point about the "political correctness of the female dominated value system that drives nearly every market know[n] to man". I for one don't like the PC environment. I do feel games, in general, do suffer from bad representation of females. We don't see huge groins on men - LOL! I usually don't hip-shoot so bad. I guess part of it's the fallout from the whole GTA debacle and constantly having to defend my hobby in the bible belt infested with "do-gooders". I shouldn't have passed judgement on the fly.

Your right, there are large "breasted" women in the world as well as ones that arn't. I guess it was the comment about the female pirate that got me goin. I'm married to a women with very, very large endowments and am sensitive to her problems with men oggling her and objectifying her. She's actually considered reduction surgery she gets so tired of it. My daughter will probably have the same problem due to genetics.

I'll wait till ya'll release and check it out. That book is a good read and does get ya thinkin.
Edited on Apr 20, 2006 15:02 GMT

Alan Hembra   (Apr 20, 2006 at 15:05 GMT)

@ Todd - we should start a seperate thread and discuss. I'm not sure which forum we should put it in. That way we don't steal Jon's thunder here by completely hi-jacking the thread.

Todd Pickens   (Apr 20, 2006 at 15:11 GMT)

Alan, good idea. The "General Discussion" area or some such, should do the trick.

Rubes   (Apr 20, 2006 at 15:33 GMT)

Actually, I started a similar discussion here a few months ago. It was more along the lines of the sexist treatment of women in games, rather than the sexist portrayal of women in games. That said, I found the responses in that thread quite telling...

N R Bharathae   (Apr 20, 2006 at 16:20 GMT)

Apology accepted, Alan.

To clariy my position I'm not attempting to denigrate women. As an artist I dig the female form and enjoy depicting it in the same manner as the ancient Greeks did. If you look at the figure drawing I hope what you see is the graceful way she carries herself. The elegance of her style and self-confidence. If you see anything else you're simply missing the point.

Alan Hembra   (Apr 20, 2006 at 16:28 GMT)

Thanks Jon,

I did start a forum thread and cut and pasted our posts, unedited, to get the dialogue started ( http://www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=43123#330540 ). I'm still thinking over Todd's post and will respond to it over there. I really didn't mean to throw your blog off track. I'm seriously annoyed at myself for it.

Your right, the drawling is graceful.
Edited on Apr 20, 2006 16:28 GMT

Jon Jorajuria   (Apr 20, 2006 at 18:58 GMT)

Actually this is the first time I am resonding to this issue...

First off I am putting this controversy to rest. We are NOT following suit with main stream, nor are we using sex or sexual explicit material to make/market this game. This is just that, a game. This game is meant to be entertaining, fun, and comical. We want people to enjoy this game and play it, not think about the social issues that people face today. If I personally wanted to tackle social issues, I would return to my previous career.

The characters in the game have their own strengths and weaknesses. The mesh model has nothing to do with game play. However there are specific reasons as to why and how this model was developed in relationship to the Ninja team. Unless you are a dev on this project, the specifics have not been released. In fact regarding this model specifically every woman who has seen the concept art, whether or not they are gamers, think it is really good and are not offended by it.

This game was originally developed as a downtime game for players of MMOs, it just so happens that it has gotten much bigger than the intended audience. Also we decided on this game as a realistic starting point along a development road towards an MMO. If you think about MMO culture, you will understand what this model represents...the obligatory "shim." For those of you who do not know this term, it is a male player who plays a female character.

DarkCombat Entertainment, and myself personally, stand by N.R.'s work and beliefs with regards to this and any model from the game. We are no exploiting women. With the exception of the development team, nobody will see the finished female models until release. Please understand this game was intended for a specific audience, it has just grown. This game has no material in it that would give the game an MA rating. The entire development team is comprised of adults, and it is DarkCombat Entertainment's view that it is the responsibility of the parent to decide if this game is appropriate for their child.

We are different from main stream in several ways. Hell we were even told not to do this game because if it fails, we will be the company known as the ones who messed up Ninjas vs. Pirates. This is probably one of several reasons this game has not been made. In addition, we have game play features that are very different from a standard FPS. We will not put out cookie cutter games that have a "proven" success rate. Lastly, we will not cater to the vocal minority like a lot of companies do. If people are offended by certain aspect of the game, we understand if you do not want to purchase it. We hope to put out a product that one day you will find suitable for you and your family. We can appreciate both our customers and non-customers, but we are not Walmart and we will not compromise on the artistic direction/vision of our games.
Edited on Apr 20, 2006 19:01 GMT

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