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Plan for Brian "Kenryoku" Hunter
Plan for Brian "Kenryoku" Hunter
| Name: | Brian Hunter | |
|---|---|---|
| Date Posted: | Jul 04, 2005 | |
| Rating: |  Not Rated | |
| Public: | YES | |
| Comments: | YES | |
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| Profile Page: | View profile page for Brian Hunter |
Blog post
A very long essay of recommendations to the Torque development community from a standing-outside-looking-in perspective. I invite everyone to read it in it's entirety, even if it must be done in small bites and not all in one sitting. My invitations within are why I invite the full read and feedback.
... this is not a plan btw, it is my thoughts after thinking about the thread following the now-becoming-infamous .plan of Pat Wilson. If I had the TGE and access to the license forums I would have made this post there instead, but alas. ;)
I come from two distinctive places that help formulate my thoughts. One is a household with computer software development back in the mid-80s. The other is from a Unreal Tournament modding background. With that said ...
As I read through the thread following PW's plan I saw a HUGE amount of coincidence and confusion for me. Coincidence in time after time we had programmers complinaing about "difficulties in the Torque art pipeline" and artist complaining about "difficulties in the Torque programming pipeline". And confusion in the sheer number of posts saying, in a blanket statement here, "GarageGames should do *this*..." From my perspective this is incredibly bewildering to me.
The coincidence of both sides of a problem argueing took me a bit to figure out and see. We have people skilled in both sides of the arguement of development complaining about the side they are not good at. Why are these people not joining forces to get things done ? To hear many of them talk they are exprts in their field of choice that can pump out indie quality development in a short amount of time - if only they had the other part of development they are not good at. I cant imagine I am the only one seeing this and wondering "Huh?"
The confusion part hit me right away though. Coming from UT and the modding community, I am stunned at the number of people tell GarageGames what they should be doing, providing the community, and when they should be doing it. In the UT modding community someone comes out of the woodwork after making a map or two and says somewhere "Epic, this is unacceptable. You have to give us proper documentation and better pipeline tools and exporters to make modding easier" and they get laughed out of the community. In UT, it is understood - "Epic does what Epic wants". You want something done for UT, YOU develop it. And this is a modding community ...
... now I look at many of the GarageGames community making demands and spin on my heels in confusion. You can rip that line out from the previous paragraph, stick in the word GarageGames and development, and it fits perfectly. "GarageGames, this is unacceptable. You have to give us proper documentation and better pipeline tools and exporters to make development easier." My thoughts ? Why does GarageGames have to do all of this ? Last time I knew there arent that many at GarageGames, and they are all working very hard on all of the things you already are looking forward too (Constructor, TSE, 1.4, 1.5, etc etc etc). Why isnt a community of real developers, not just modders, laboring to develop pipelines and documentation on their own ? Especially when unpaid modders can do it and do it damned good. UnrealWIKI, animation previewers, array customizers for content packs, code and art asset packs available at no cost, one and on and on.
In thought about answering my own questions I have tried to come up with my own uneducated answers, considering I dont own the engine(s), I dont have access to the provate forums, and so forth. Here is what I have come up with.
1. Too many chiefs, not enough indians
The old problem of people wanting to be in charge and not working on the concepts and content of another.
And ... if they do work on things for others, they expect payment for time spent ... there is no charity.
2. Resource sprawl
This horse has seen the beatings in the last four weeks, and we know GarageGamaes themselves are already working on streamlining the documentation, cleaning it up, and organizing it into a WIKI of their own. This doesnt mean, however, the community at large should sit back and point fingers for the resources. If you want a free ride, Im beginning to see indie development isnt for you.
3. Generation Privilage
Unceremonously I have heard people saying to the effect, "GarageGames should concentrate on respecting and rewarding the license holders for their time and money spent on their products". Hate to tell people this, but one hundred bucks for an engine is two copies of a video game. One hundred fifty bucks for TSE, yeh not much more. Buying multiple asset packs and the engines to use in them ... you still havent hit big numbers. I personally think, and this coming from a guy who budgets to fill up the car with gas and have something in the house to eat after bills, GarageGames has done, is doing, and will have done PLENTY for their community and indies, plain and simple. Privilages for the money indies in this community are spending only go so far ... what would you do for A LOT of people at only one hundred bucks at a time ?
4. WAY too much finger pointing at GarageGames
Close to number three, but this is my biggest sticking point - the community should be using all the time and energy they spend complaining about things and pointing fingers at GarageGames writing up these long political explinations on their point of view to trying to persuade someone out there to develop tools and complete the documentation they think they should have on developing and documenting the tools and engine themselves.
I have seen time and time again people proudly proclaiming "after months of intense work I have figured *this* out and have finally been able to do something with it". Many of these people are the same people who one or the other or both either stop developing because their is something holding them back or spend hours typing and complaining about various lacks in the Torque experience and how GarageGames should do something about it. If everyone had gotten together that has this proudly proclaimed learned expertise of Torque, made something to the effect of a knowledge base or a community born WIKI, we would see huge improvements in community productivity I am betting.
Why hasnt this happened ... I can only point to my reasons one through three.
Which again is a great source of coincidence and confusion for me.
- - - - -
"So, bigmouth, what are you saying?"
What I am saying is that if we have such talent in the community that in pieces we have a more complete Torque Engine mastery why dont we as a community come together and work on this baby together, side by side with GarageGames, instead of apart and from different corners of the engine and community ? Is it the time invested ? Is it the money ? Is it too much pride ? Is it too much work for the community ? Is there actually infighting on the private forums that I dont know about ? Or is it, and I hope this isnt the case, that Pat Wilson's .plan's underlying tone is correct and what there really is in the community is a bunch of big talk and no action ? Or is it possibly something else ? I invite people to use my plan to discuss the possibility of the community banding together in a concentrated effort of mutual interest to do everything the community wants and needs from a much, much smaller body of people in GarageGames. If everyone can live up to their talk and proud declarations of talent in the various areas of Torque, then together we could all be making beautiful music together (and lets not forget that money thing too).
"So, bigmouth, what are YOU doing for this effort?!"
I wish I was doing more, but for now all I can do is keep studying OOP, keep working on my talents as an upcoming artist and environment developer, and keep saving my nickles to be able to buy into Torque and it's various engines. Limited to QuArK and free 3D modelling apps, without access to the engine or the core, Im pretty much helpless to benefit the effort I propose. At least for now.
"Why should I help someone else without compensation?"
This community seems to thrive when someone takes the first steps towards mutual benefit for all, especially in the tight circles of the truely dedicated developers. When someone comes forth and does something, more work seems to pop up at of the woodwork magically. If this idea was concentrated on, a fair share - give and take - I pat your back you pat mine, I think it would work extremely well. But it needs to have that body start it off. It would take hard work and dedication ...
"And what if there was a lot of taking and not a lot of giving?"
Honestly this community has members that have proven themselves capable of fraternizing. Meaning: if this work is done and it turns out there is only a small handful of truely dedicated people helping each other and a whole bunch of people attempting to freeload, then fraternize and privatize the group of hardworkers and make access to this hardwork a privilage. If someone wants into a database of information and resources that is ran on an "I pat your back you pat mine" basis they first have to submit an honest and valuable resource to the database before being given access - make people earn the privilage. This isnt a perfect answer but it will weed out and concentrate the real developers so they can continue to motivate one another and get things done.
And let me not forget to mention that if there is this concentrated effort to do this and the tools and/or documentation proves comprehensive and complete enough that there could be benefits to reap from GarageGames themselves ! Time we spend working with them to help them improve the Torque development front is less time they have to spend on a various project and more time they have top spend on other things like 1.5 release.
- - - - -
Pat's plan and resulting thread prove we, the GarageGames community, have a firey, dedicate compassion for Torque.
I say we take good opportunity looking us in the face and seize the moment. Pat's plan sparked a flame that is seen in the thread underneath, I say we stoke an inferno and burn the problems we have to the ground and plant the seeds for a strong community-based plan of action to get Torque development empowered to where WE the community want to see it. (And let the GarageGames guys keep working on Constructor, TSE, and 1.5 development, hehehe, not that I have priorities or something).
The above is written quickly and without spelling and grammer checking ... so readers beware!
I come from two distinctive places that help formulate my thoughts. One is a household with computer software development back in the mid-80s. The other is from a Unreal Tournament modding background. With that said ...
As I read through the thread following PW's plan I saw a HUGE amount of coincidence and confusion for me. Coincidence in time after time we had programmers complinaing about "difficulties in the Torque art pipeline" and artist complaining about "difficulties in the Torque programming pipeline". And confusion in the sheer number of posts saying, in a blanket statement here, "GarageGames should do *this*..." From my perspective this is incredibly bewildering to me.
The coincidence of both sides of a problem argueing took me a bit to figure out and see. We have people skilled in both sides of the arguement of development complaining about the side they are not good at. Why are these people not joining forces to get things done ? To hear many of them talk they are exprts in their field of choice that can pump out indie quality development in a short amount of time - if only they had the other part of development they are not good at. I cant imagine I am the only one seeing this and wondering "Huh?"
The confusion part hit me right away though. Coming from UT and the modding community, I am stunned at the number of people tell GarageGames what they should be doing, providing the community, and when they should be doing it. In the UT modding community someone comes out of the woodwork after making a map or two and says somewhere "Epic, this is unacceptable. You have to give us proper documentation and better pipeline tools and exporters to make modding easier" and they get laughed out of the community. In UT, it is understood - "Epic does what Epic wants". You want something done for UT, YOU develop it. And this is a modding community ...
... now I look at many of the GarageGames community making demands and spin on my heels in confusion. You can rip that line out from the previous paragraph, stick in the word GarageGames and development, and it fits perfectly. "GarageGames, this is unacceptable. You have to give us proper documentation and better pipeline tools and exporters to make development easier." My thoughts ? Why does GarageGames have to do all of this ? Last time I knew there arent that many at GarageGames, and they are all working very hard on all of the things you already are looking forward too (Constructor, TSE, 1.4, 1.5, etc etc etc). Why isnt a community of real developers, not just modders, laboring to develop pipelines and documentation on their own ? Especially when unpaid modders can do it and do it damned good. UnrealWIKI, animation previewers, array customizers for content packs, code and art asset packs available at no cost, one and on and on.
In thought about answering my own questions I have tried to come up with my own uneducated answers, considering I dont own the engine(s), I dont have access to the provate forums, and so forth. Here is what I have come up with.
1. Too many chiefs, not enough indians
The old problem of people wanting to be in charge and not working on the concepts and content of another.
And ... if they do work on things for others, they expect payment for time spent ... there is no charity.
2. Resource sprawl
This horse has seen the beatings in the last four weeks, and we know GarageGamaes themselves are already working on streamlining the documentation, cleaning it up, and organizing it into a WIKI of their own. This doesnt mean, however, the community at large should sit back and point fingers for the resources. If you want a free ride, Im beginning to see indie development isnt for you.
3. Generation Privilage
Unceremonously I have heard people saying to the effect, "GarageGames should concentrate on respecting and rewarding the license holders for their time and money spent on their products". Hate to tell people this, but one hundred bucks for an engine is two copies of a video game. One hundred fifty bucks for TSE, yeh not much more. Buying multiple asset packs and the engines to use in them ... you still havent hit big numbers. I personally think, and this coming from a guy who budgets to fill up the car with gas and have something in the house to eat after bills, GarageGames has done, is doing, and will have done PLENTY for their community and indies, plain and simple. Privilages for the money indies in this community are spending only go so far ... what would you do for A LOT of people at only one hundred bucks at a time ?
4. WAY too much finger pointing at GarageGames
Close to number three, but this is my biggest sticking point - the community should be using all the time and energy they spend complaining about things and pointing fingers at GarageGames writing up these long political explinations on their point of view to trying to persuade someone out there to develop tools and complete the documentation they think they should have on developing and documenting the tools and engine themselves.
I have seen time and time again people proudly proclaiming "after months of intense work I have figured *this* out and have finally been able to do something with it". Many of these people are the same people who one or the other or both either stop developing because their is something holding them back or spend hours typing and complaining about various lacks in the Torque experience and how GarageGames should do something about it. If everyone had gotten together that has this proudly proclaimed learned expertise of Torque, made something to the effect of a knowledge base or a community born WIKI, we would see huge improvements in community productivity I am betting.
Why hasnt this happened ... I can only point to my reasons one through three.
Which again is a great source of coincidence and confusion for me.
- - - - -
"So, bigmouth, what are you saying?"
What I am saying is that if we have such talent in the community that in pieces we have a more complete Torque Engine mastery why dont we as a community come together and work on this baby together, side by side with GarageGames, instead of apart and from different corners of the engine and community ? Is it the time invested ? Is it the money ? Is it too much pride ? Is it too much work for the community ? Is there actually infighting on the private forums that I dont know about ? Or is it, and I hope this isnt the case, that Pat Wilson's .plan's underlying tone is correct and what there really is in the community is a bunch of big talk and no action ? Or is it possibly something else ? I invite people to use my plan to discuss the possibility of the community banding together in a concentrated effort of mutual interest to do everything the community wants and needs from a much, much smaller body of people in GarageGames. If everyone can live up to their talk and proud declarations of talent in the various areas of Torque, then together we could all be making beautiful music together (and lets not forget that money thing too).
"So, bigmouth, what are YOU doing for this effort?!"
I wish I was doing more, but for now all I can do is keep studying OOP, keep working on my talents as an upcoming artist and environment developer, and keep saving my nickles to be able to buy into Torque and it's various engines. Limited to QuArK and free 3D modelling apps, without access to the engine or the core, Im pretty much helpless to benefit the effort I propose. At least for now.
"Why should I help someone else without compensation?"
This community seems to thrive when someone takes the first steps towards mutual benefit for all, especially in the tight circles of the truely dedicated developers. When someone comes forth and does something, more work seems to pop up at of the woodwork magically. If this idea was concentrated on, a fair share - give and take - I pat your back you pat mine, I think it would work extremely well. But it needs to have that body start it off. It would take hard work and dedication ...
"And what if there was a lot of taking and not a lot of giving?"
Honestly this community has members that have proven themselves capable of fraternizing. Meaning: if this work is done and it turns out there is only a small handful of truely dedicated people helping each other and a whole bunch of people attempting to freeload, then fraternize and privatize the group of hardworkers and make access to this hardwork a privilage. If someone wants into a database of information and resources that is ran on an "I pat your back you pat mine" basis they first have to submit an honest and valuable resource to the database before being given access - make people earn the privilage. This isnt a perfect answer but it will weed out and concentrate the real developers so they can continue to motivate one another and get things done.
And let me not forget to mention that if there is this concentrated effort to do this and the tools and/or documentation proves comprehensive and complete enough that there could be benefits to reap from GarageGames themselves ! Time we spend working with them to help them improve the Torque development front is less time they have to spend on a various project and more time they have top spend on other things like 1.5 release.
- - - - -
Pat's plan and resulting thread prove we, the GarageGames community, have a firey, dedicate compassion for Torque.
I say we take good opportunity looking us in the face and seize the moment. Pat's plan sparked a flame that is seen in the thread underneath, I say we stoke an inferno and burn the problems we have to the ground and plant the seeds for a strong community-based plan of action to get Torque development empowered to where WE the community want to see it. (And let the GarageGames guys keep working on Constructor, TSE, and 1.5 development, hehehe, not that I have priorities or something).
The above is written quickly and without spelling and grammer checking ... so readers beware!
Recent Blog Posts
| List: | 07/06/06 - My first TGB Game production begins. 07/04/05 - Plan for Brian "Kenryoku" Hunter 06/29/05 - Plan for Brian "Kenryoku" Hunter |
|---|
Submit your own resources!| FruitBatInShades (Jul 04, 2005 at 20:19 GMT) |
The other thing is that most of the GG community are not experienced in 3d modelling and development, we're hobbyists and don;t have the skills to create the tools and exporters. I looked into creating a new style of CSG editor but quickly realised that I did not have the maths knowledge to complete it.
Hopefully the new wiki will explode as soon as its up, I will be submitting some tutorials and info that I have gleaned and I hope many others will do too. I believe this is a good move for GG and will make a big difference. I have been working on an outline for what would be the perfect documentation map which I will post soon.
No offence to GG but the other problem is that GG tends to drive people away sometimes. They have 500 people emailing them with ideas and offering to do stuff but they rarely reply and people get annoyed. This is not a fault of GG, this is the fault of the 99% of projects that are all airware. I think if they appoint some volunteers that could handle the email volume and pick up on realistic ideas and teams and start some hosted projects (like blender.org) then things may progress more quickly.
what do you think?
| Blake LaPierre (Jul 04, 2005 at 21:20 GMT) |
| Simon Duggan (Jul 04, 2005 at 21:55 GMT) |
There is one line
Quote:
Plus, you can collaborate with GarageGames supportive and enthusiastic online community of fellow game makers.
Note: it says collaborate, not that GG owes us anything.
As for making games. A lot of games are based on a concept, sometimes not a very well thought out concept. And when people start trying to make their concept they realize how badly it was thought out. So projects get abandoned. I myself have fallen down in this area lots of times. My personal project I have started, restarted, and started over again. Even this time, I am not 100% sure I will complete it.
@Blake, you say the difference between here and UT modding is people pay for GG products. Dont you have to pay for Unreal? Or you using a friends copy?
| Blake LaPierre (Jul 04, 2005 at 22:02 GMT) |
| Simon Duggan (Jul 04, 2005 at 22:59 GMT) |
UT Script and mission Modding = free (Comes with UT, or can be downloaded)
TGE Script and mission Modding = free (Download the demo from the GG site )
UT Source Code = Royalty-Free License ($750,000) or Royalty-Bearing License ($350,000)
TGE Soure Code = Indie ($100) or Commercial ($495)
Actualy, UT, has been used for MMORPGS, Lineage2 for example. So they are also selling an engine.
EDIT: thought I would add Epics site on Unreal Technology. www.unrealtechnology.com/
Edited on Jul 04, 2005 23:02 GMT
| Michael \"Evic\" Wales (Jul 05, 2005 at 01:30 GMT) |
Epic's entire business plan doesn't revolve around the publishing of your mods. They'd like to see mods come out, but if none do - oh well, no harm done.
GG's entire business plan is publishing. The engines just get you in the door, so they can possibly publish more of your games. It behooves GG to abide by the legitimate requests of the community.
| Hokuto (Jul 05, 2005 at 09:45 GMT) |
I'm not going to reply to someone that doesn't own TGE therefore has not even tried to use it.
BTW: when you do modding you know 99% of the times is purely a hobby. When you are trying to create a commerical game is a different story...
blah
| Melv May (Jul 05, 2005 at 10:29 GMT) |
Now before someone points out that I'm being nieve, you should try to speak to some of the GG crew themselves so that you know exactly what I mean. Technology-driven people who are only one step away from being community members themselves. GG certainly isn't a money-means-everything, to hell with the community company. Sure they need to have income to maintain GG as a valid business but I can tell you from absolute knowledge that nobody in GG is earning wads of cash.
On this premise, I believe Brian is correct in that we shouldn't expect to be given more and more for a piffling $100 -$200 investment. GG doesn't guarantee any further tech; you purchase the engine with rights to anything that comes along as an upgrade, that's all. If GG didn't invest so much time and effort into making their products better, the community probably wouldn't grumble as much and granted there probably wouldn't be as many sales but the point is that I think we're seeing the act of "flogging a willing horse".
When you see posts like Pats recent plan or the annoyed posts of Jeff T, it's born out of frustration from a company really trying to meet the needs of an ever growning community, most of which has very little game development experience.
The great thing here is that GG will continue to improve their product portfolio as well as improve the engines they provide but for some people, that just can't happen fast enough. Quite often these people don't understand why it's taking so long but quite often these people haven't been involved in any complex large-scale development. This is not to disrepect those individuals but rather to try to gain some context.
Most complaints I read don't take into account the time or money involved and take a stance of GG must be making millions. It ain't so.
- Melv.
| Hokuto (Jul 05, 2005 at 10:52 GMT) |
| David Tiernan (Jul 05, 2005 at 16:54 GMT) |
Could be a new revinue stream for them, I don't expect more for my 100 bucks than I paid for and am always willing to pay for the right stuff. Case and point I hated quark, tried CShop and it was easier to use and there was talk of a exporter. Spent 50-60 bucks on the tool and messed with it then the pipeline comes out. 12 bucks how could I go wrong. Lets say once I got the exporter the art pipeline for BSP was incredible and easy. Milkshape is about the same just some major features missing from the modeler.
Still looking at fragmosoft since the animation seems very good even in it's early stages and there is talk of a torque exporter there as well. Alot of the community isn't afraid to pay for good resources, personally I think Dreamer's MMORPG tutorials should of been wrapped up as a SDK because of all the hard work he put in there. This is a "hobbyist" I don't expect to ever release a game, I am not doing it for a living. I am a Network Administrator who used to mod Duke Nukem. Alot of torquers either are hobbyists or just bite off more than they can chew.
Current project, I am actually working on the racing mod to make a simple racer. As long as it's fun for me and a few close friends then to me it's a complete success. I don't need to make sales to be happy.
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