Minions of Mirth - MMORPG Tech Licensing

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David Montgomery-Blake   (Jan 24, 2007 at 21:23 GMT)

Oh how sweet.

Allyn "Mr_Bloodworth" Mcelrath   (Jan 24, 2007 at 21:29 GMT)

uh oh....

Tom Bentz   (Jan 24, 2007 at 21:33 GMT)

Thats awesome!

Philippe Thiboutot   (Jan 24, 2007 at 21:42 GMT)

This might be very interesting...

I would like to know if this the technology is geared more in a "fantasy landscape with characters on it" like MoM or is the backend technology very versatile and could be used in another context. Is the server management very much tied into TGE or is it more of a generic solution?

I'm very interested in this kind of thing and I really can't wait to have more information.

Josh you are a beacon of light in this community! Keep surprising us!

Prairie Games   (Jan 24, 2007 at 21:59 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

@Philippe: This is a good 10,000 foot view of stuff: Evolution of an Indie MMORPG

Rodney (OldRod) Burns   (Jan 24, 2007 at 22:08 GMT)

Awesome! :)

Joe Rossi   (Jan 24, 2007 at 22:22 GMT)

Could this be used with TGB? Either way it's awesome, I'm just curious if that would be possible.

Jesse (Midhir) Liles   (Jan 24, 2007 at 22:25 GMT)

Josh! I've said this before, but, you ROCK!

Brian \\\"Cybore\\\" Smith   (Jan 24, 2007 at 22:26 GMT)

This is Awesome news! Can't wait to get my hands on it!

Dreamer   (Jan 24, 2007 at 22:32 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

Congrats Josh, this should be interesting to see. any word on a release date or price point?
Edited on Jan 24, 2007 23:04 GMT

Johnny Hill   (Jan 24, 2007 at 22:34 GMT)

is it XMAS again :) Excellent......with a hint of Montgomery Burns :))

Kevin McLaughlin   (Jan 24, 2007 at 22:50 GMT)   Resource Rating: 3

It's interesting. But I'm a bit confused why on earth such a big deal is being made over this, when a fully functioning system already exists in the Dream Games product?

I laud the success you've had with MOM, but the competing product already offers everything MOM does, plus Torque-only language (no need to learn Python), plus full TGEA function via the Titas release, all wrapped in a package that's working.

It's nice to see someone stepping up to the plate with a competitor, but MOM has got a ways to go to catch up, IMHO. I guess we'll see.

Marcus   (Jan 24, 2007 at 23:08 GMT)

@Kevin - Or perhaps you are a Dream Games fanboy?

Prairie Games   (Jan 24, 2007 at 23:16 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

@Joe: Yes, this could be used with TGB (and TGEA). It would actually be a very cool idea to make a demo of doing just this once we've shipped :)

@Dreamer: Thanks. The technology will be available for purchase on the GarageGames site. We'll very likely be offering it in Indie, Commercial, and Pro flavors much like Torque Game Builder. We'll announce the price point once the product is available. We'll have more information in the near future...

Dreamer   (Jan 24, 2007 at 23:20 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

Thanks Josh, I've fixed my rating from a 3 to a 5 now we have more information :)
Regards,
Dreamer

Kevin McLaughlin   (Jan 24, 2007 at 23:21 GMT)   Resource Rating: 3

@Marcus - No, I'm a fan of what works. ;)
Right now, the kits sold at http://www.mydreamrpg.com *work*, work *well*, and have superior functionality to that apparent in the MOM retail release.

As I said, MOM has a ways to go to catch up as a competing product. If they do, I might well buy their system.

The most curious thing to me, however - no offense meant Josh, and best of luck to your business! - is why GG is partnering with MOM, instead of an already existing system that over 700 of their customers have bought. I think most of the GG userbase who is interested in making an MMO has already bought into the Dream Kit, and are much more likely to continue using the Dream Kit as it advances, rather than pay yet MORE money to buy into something new.
Edited on Jan 24, 2007 23:25 GMT

Edward Smith   (Jan 24, 2007 at 23:26 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

I think this is a good thing. :-)

Alfred Norris   (Jan 24, 2007 at 23:26 GMT)

LMAO - Kevin is FAR from a DREAM games fanboi. I've actually accused him of being biased for RealmCrafter since I feel that when he posts he carefully covers his RC sentimentality, but overall he has a lot of knowledge and calls things like he sees them. That's not to say I dislike you Kev. Just think you're biased for RealmCrafter :P
Edited on Jan 24, 2007 23:27 GMT

Mark   (Jan 24, 2007 at 23:26 GMT)

Now that's a good idea

Alfred Norris   (Jan 24, 2007 at 23:44 GMT)

Kevin, if I had to guess from a business standpoint, Im betting that GG looked at MoM and the Toolkit and chose the most economically efficient of the two.

What I mean by that is that Josh is one guy instead of an entire team. He's also not working on a competing project so they'd get a greater level of control over the end product.

In the end it will boil down to 3 factors:

1) ease of use / tools
2) functionality
3) support

Kevin McLaughlin   (Jan 25, 2007 at 00:20 GMT)   Resource Rating: 3

Agreed, on all three points Alfred. We'll see.

Hey, no matter what, having the MOM Kit and the Dream Kit competing against each other will undoubtably make both kits better. ;)

Jon Mitchell   (Jan 25, 2007 at 00:32 GMT)

One question I asked about My Dream RPG was its suitability for a MMOFPS game which it seems with not a lot of work it will work well., So now I present you the same question. How well would MoM technology work in a MMOFPS game?
Also in a rough ballpark figure when do you expect to see it on the GG shelves?
Edited on Jan 25, 2007 00:34 GMT

Nick Duvante   (Jan 25, 2007 at 00:46 GMT)

sorry if this is inappropriate but I just bought torque, when reading over the license agreement I thought it said that you couldn't make engines based on this one? if this is possible i would like to know this as i might be interested in making my own torque based engine and selling itonline. do mom and dreammpg need permission to do this or can anyone do this

Kevin McLaughlin   (Jan 25, 2007 at 00:50 GMT)   Resource Rating: 3

Yes, Dream Games and MOM both got permission first. That's required in order to be able to do what DG has done, and what Josh is trying to gear up to do.

Prairie Games   (Jan 25, 2007 at 01:20 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

@Nick: Prairie Games and GarageGames are working in cooperation on the Minions of Mirth technology licensing.

Christian S   (Jan 25, 2007 at 02:00 GMT)   Resource Rating: 2

Interesting read!

Especially since its been app. 1 year since I asked if this was possible, and price ;)

Anyways, interesting move. Though I do not understand the move by GG. As said above a lot of indie developers have allready bought, and dived into the MydreamRpg (and could we leave mudcasting out plz.) and are tweaking that pack towards their goals.

So, aside the classic confused 'me' theres a couple of questions I hope to get answered;

1: Josh, is the engine you plan to release stripped of all the excess code for party and such ?

2: Josh, is the models, and art currently in mom coming along if licenced -or is it purely code?

3: Josh, is the code easily tweakable to go from the tri to singular class, and from menu-shopping to skillgaining a'la EveOnline?

Thanks in advance, and keep up the spirit -you do rock!

Ashley Kelley   (Jan 25, 2007 at 02:22 GMT)

Dream Games does have permission from Garage Games for the kit. Anyone doing this kind of kit would also need their permission. The EULA clearly states that written permission is required to make such tools.

Vashner   (Jan 25, 2007 at 03:08 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

Awesome news.

edit add: "Mommaware" is born!
Edited on Jan 25, 2007 03:18 GMT

Oliver Rendelmann - DerR   (Jan 25, 2007 at 05:52 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

Hey that's awesome! :) Hopefully it will hail tech demos and features on both sides... maybe we will have a streaming Torque engine sometime because of that... no zone loading, hooray. ;) Congrats Mr. Ritter.

Vashner   (Jan 25, 2007 at 06:37 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

The price structure idea sounds great. Couple feedback things that I am sure you already have thought of. If I did use it, would be with TGEA and would like to have some projectile combat going on. Imagine it would not be that hard to do with this tech?

Scott Coursey   (Jan 25, 2007 at 06:41 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

This truly is excellent news! Especially since the 1.5 version of the Dream Kit won't compile properly on the Mac (grr, ugh).

Reload... Any news? Reload... Any news?

Jon Mitchell   (Jan 25, 2007 at 12:47 GMT)

I would like to expand Vashner's question a little farther and ask what versions of the torque engine will MoM run on?

Alfred Norris   (Jan 25, 2007 at 13:06 GMT)

Jon, he's already said this could be used with TGB (and TGEA).

I want to know what tools this MoMware will have for easing the MMORPG pipeline?

Prairie Games   (Jan 25, 2007 at 13:34 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

The server architecture really doesn't care if you are running TGB, TGE, or TGEA. Though, we've done considerable work on TGE to optimize it for MMORPGs. For instance, a world server can have over 3,000 entities walking around in it at one time! TGE is the release's platform.

Kevin McLaughlin   (Jan 25, 2007 at 14:16 GMT)   Resource Rating: 3

TGE 1.4 or 1.5, Josh? Just curious if the software can take advantage of the new lighting and other features of TGE 1.5 yet or not.

Jon Mitchell   (Jan 25, 2007 at 14:37 GMT)

Hi Alfred,
Kevin I think asked the question more clearly than I did, I was wondering what versions of TGE it would run with.

Mark Berry   (Jan 25, 2007 at 15:45 GMT)

Congrats. You really raise the bar for us though :-)

I'm sold, even if I am going to have to learn Python to tinker with it.....

Now, if I can just track down some of that elusive free time I hear other have.

Vashner   (Jan 25, 2007 at 17:33 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

Yea I figured it would be not too big of a deal to work with TGEA. Gonna need a way to share materials states across the clients. I.e.materials that hot swap and will need other clients to be aware of that. Press I for invis and you get an invis shader material swapped so should be a way to send that out to the others. Very exciting possibilities...

Mark Dynna   (Jan 25, 2007 at 19:57 GMT)

This looks very interesting, especially if it will run on TGEA. However, I'm a little confused on what exactly will be in this package. Will this be a totally new build of TGE? It sounds like this is some sort of architecture that runs underneath/around TGE, is that right? How easy will it be to take in pieces if we don't want the whole thing (like Python scripting).

To address the MyDreamRPG issue: if I was a business person at GG looking to partner with someone to make a solid MMO kit, I would pick the (currently) most successful one. I know that a lot of people have purchased the MMO Kit (myself included), but people never had the *opportunity* to purchase MoM's "kit." Additionally, MoM is (as it says) a *proven* system. I looked around and I can't find any game built on the MMO Kit that is currently in a "commercial release" stage. If there is, MyDreamRPG should advertise it better. Also, the MMO Kit for TGEA (Titas) is still in Beta.

Now, there are a lot of things in the MMO Kit that I like. However, there is enough that I found disapointing (Inventory being one) that I would look into another poduct as well.

Alfred Norris   (Jan 25, 2007 at 22:11 GMT)

Ahh, sorry Jon. No hard feelings, eh?

Interesting point about the release of the game as proof of concept. I agree that that was probably a factor. If I were making the choice that would be less critical than comparing working feature sets, though.

The competition between the two will no doubt help us all in the end. GG obviously woke up to the potential that the DreamKit exposed in the market. No doubt "we've always wanted to do something like this" will be their mantra, but now having seen the demand it became a priority for growth.

Should be interesting to see how things shake out.

Dreamer   (Jan 25, 2007 at 22:40 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

I know this is the wrong place but I can't find a user on our site with your name Mark, so this is the best I got.
Hey Mark we're in the process of refactoring inventory, and we're interested in feedback on the current inventory system and proposed changes, come over to the site and let us know please.

Regards,
Dreamer

p.s. Sorry for commondeering your blog Josh

Mark Dynna   (Jan 25, 2007 at 22:45 GMT)

Ok, started a thread in the Support forum. Feel free to email me offline as well.

(You can have your blog back Josh)

Mark   (Jan 26, 2007 at 00:38 GMT)

I'm wondering if this source code could support more of a Massive Multiplayer FPS

Thomas Oliver   (Jan 26, 2007 at 03:48 GMT)

If I am not mistaken and I remeber right Dream Games was offered the choice of selling there product on the GG site under some restictions and such. At the time they (or we at the time) turned the offer down for reasions that are to numorus to list.

So its not that GG didnt want to work on the MMOKit and all its just at the time we had different ideas for the product and wanted to retain the benefits from selling the product ourselfs.

I forone cant wait to see the server system behind MoM. Its similar to the design I originaly wanted and announced Titas to have powering it but a job offer permitted itself that I could not refuse and I had to leave because of it.

Dreamer   (Jan 26, 2007 at 04:20 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

Edited on Jan 26, 2007 04:41 GMT

J.C. Smith   (Jan 26, 2007 at 04:21 GMT)

Both of the engines have some nice features. I'm looking forward to the MOM Kit, because I think love the python code and would like to get a hold of his server handling code. If you have the money why not buy both and merge together the parts you like from each.

Ashley Kelley   (Jan 26, 2007 at 04:56 GMT)

@ Thomas Oliver, That was not exactly the situation nor the outcome of our negotiations with Garage Games reguarding the MMORPG kit. We have an active NDA with Garage Games that will not allow me to explain the current agreement. However I do feel it necessary to point out that Thomas Oliver is no longer associated with Dream Games Inc.

Roger Streavel   (Jan 26, 2007 at 19:51 GMT)

Just one question....if its "complete" and "battle tested and production ready" whats the hold up? is There any estimated release date? 2007? 2008? and whats the price range? 100-200 indie or higher... I understand you are under NDA most likely but Im not asking for details im asking for rough estimates....Thanks and good job

Joe Rossi   (Jan 28, 2007 at 03:50 GMT)

I'm also primarily interested in the server handling code. From what I've read it seems pretty complex (in a good way). I doubt if I could write something like that on my own. It would be much easier to license it. The "live update" is also interesting to me.
Edited on Jan 28, 2007 06:58 GMT

Kyle Hagin   (Jan 28, 2007 at 17:53 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

MoM rocks and I can't even believe that we will be able to license this awesome proven MMORPG technology. It is even more awesome that it will be available on the Garage Games website. The best thing about this will be the unbeatable server technology Josh has devised :

"a world server can have over 3,000 entities walking around in it at one time!"

Thanks Josh and thanks for the inspiration and motivation.

J Sears   (Jan 29, 2007 at 10:36 GMT)

If this comes out sooner rather then later I will certainly pick up a copy. I had looked at MMO kit several times and it never struck me as something that would actually put out a true MMORPG. That isn't an attack against dreamer and his crew just my opinions on several viewings of the site.

Being able to go into MoM and see how it runs, how well it handles so many players and characters in one spot at a time etc. gives me a lot of confidence in picking up this and messing around with it. I can't wait.

I had read the earlier blog posts about the server code reworking for MoM and thought man I wish I could see how that was done and learn about large scale networking and now this product is released. That is the biggest part of it I'm looking forward to

Edward   (Jan 29, 2007 at 21:28 GMT)

ill definitly keep a eye out on this one. I have been eying the mmo kit for almost a year now. any ideas on cost? a competetive one i hope, and will i come in multiple flavors? i.e TGE or TGEA. i have the AFX pack, how will it interact with that as well, since it uses alot of additional coding. just a thought as these new products move forward. ah while im here, who agrees they need to bring everything up to 1.5 standards :P
ill be the guy standing in line for this product.

Michael Hernandez   (Feb 10, 2007 at 18:29 GMT)

As an MMORPG devel newbie, i have purchased RealmCrafter, TGE, AFX, TGEA, MMOKIT, MoM Client and Multiverse (Free). My question to Prairie Games is the following; What sets you apart from Multiverse (www.multiverse.net)? Their server technology is by far much more advanced than any of the current products i have purchased, development seems much quicker, better documented and focused. Im not ranting or trying to flame, im simply asking because im tired of paying for products that are far from what they describe when sold! not to mention a MAJOR lack of documentation and even product focus. RC is a great "friendly" engine, but very limited for what id like to create and their support is "minimal" at best, I only purchased TGE, AFX and TGEA based on MMOKit which so far has turned out to be much better than RC in terms of limitations, but the lack of support and documentation is a HUGE turn-off to the point that ive had to look for alternatives, which brought me to Multiverse, so far they have GREAT documenation and support, but lack allot of the DX9 Client side features as well as Tools for development. Anyhow, my original question was "How will your MMO KIT set its self apart from the rest?"

Thanks.
Edited on Feb 10, 2007 18:34 GMT

Donavan Jones   (Feb 16, 2007 at 00:10 GMT)

Wow! This is great news. With this technogy is it required to buy Arcan FX to get World of worldcraft like fx or is there something similar in this?

Scott Coursey   (Feb 16, 2007 at 00:46 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

@Donavan: MoM uses Arcane FX. WoW uses its own beast. If you want something like WoW, you'll have to tweak the AFX stuff or come up with your own.

Volund   (Feb 17, 2007 at 00:23 GMT)

@Scott: I was not aware that MoM used Arcane FX from Faust Logic. I thought it had its own system. If MoM set for this kit has integrated AFX then thats a whole different story and well worth a hint or three to verify.
@Donovan: There is a WoW control emulator resource here http://www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=11152

Chris Adkins   (Mar 16, 2007 at 01:27 GMT)

Any more news on this release? Thanks

Wolf Dreamer   (Mar 29, 2007 at 20:46 GMT)

There is no information on the official Prairie Games website.

Googling about I found this. http://www.mmoworkshop.com/trac/mom

I had put my faith and my money into the MMO-kit, now called Gryphon, but today I received an email saying that they were dead. :( I got it on September 30th, 2006, thinking it was nearly completed. Alas, it still hasn't gotten done.

Quote:

---

Due to a seasoning of our business relationship with Garage Games, we will no longer be offering Titas and Gryphon for sale after 4/6/2007. If you are an owner of these products, do not be alarmed! Wonderful things are ahead for you.

---

Anyway, since Minions of Mirth actually is up and running, it having everything done, I am curious about this new kit based on it. Are you waiting for the official experation of whatever license Garage Games had with Dream Games Inc. becore mentioning anything?

Dreamer   (Mar 29, 2007 at 23:42 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

Just to clarify, MMOKIT (Gryphon is just a release name) is not dead, evidently GarageGames just asked them not to sell it anymore. So as of April 6th, no new copies will of it will be sold.

Regards,
Dreamer

Frank Carentz   (Apr 24, 2007 at 03:46 GMT)

so will there be no mmokit?

Brian Irvin   (Apr 30, 2007 at 23:15 GMT)

When is the MoM MMO kit gonna be RELEASED? And how much will it cost? Come on GG or Mom get it together and tell us something

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