Rated M - Just to be rated M

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Deozaan   (May 23, 2008 at 06:56 GMT)

Reminds me of Conker's Bad Fur Day.

I much preferred it while it was still the innocent and fun looking Conker's Quest.

J.C. Smith   (May 23, 2008 at 08:08 GMT)

[quote="But what the content of Age of Conan is telling me is it is directly targeting people who either A) feel it is necessary to use profanity like punctuation or just randomly spewed into sentences or B) want to run around the game flashing people with their girl avatar. Neither of those types are the type of people I want to play games with and as a MMORPG that is a bad thing."]

Or maybe...

c) An audience that prefers a different setting, as opposed to the square, cartoony and Disney worlds in every other game.

It sold over a million copies in its first few days of release, that market is obviously out there. Not everyone wants Disney. There are a lot of people who were craving a darker setting, and this is the first game that really delivered that. That's not going to be for everyone, but calling the developers unprofessional because they hurt your sensitive feelings is ridiculous. If you don't like it, play any of the other dozens of PC games. Make your rant about why you didn't like it, but don't cast judgements on others who have obviously found a niche for their game, where other big budget titles in recent history fell flat on their faces by trying to tap into a saturated market.

Matt Huston   (May 23, 2008 at 08:38 GMT)   Resource Rating: 1

The Conan stories were originally written in 1932 and were very dark and gloomy. The movies did a pretty good job keeping to the setting as well, have you by any chance seen them?

Like JC has said, Conan isn't for the average gamer, it is made more for the actual fans of the franchise and stays true to it.

N R Bharathae   (May 23, 2008 at 11:03 GMT)

I have to second Matt. If you've read the original stories there were plenty of scantily clad women running around, so even though I haven't played it yet it seems the developers are just remaining true to the concept. As for the profanity I don't remember much of that unless it was in the context of "By Crom's beard, damn you!" or something similiar.

Gamers familiar at all with Roberet E. Howard's work should understand that Conan is a man's man. And as such endulged himself in a mannly lifestyle with only is own barbaric moral compass to guide him, not anything born of Christian principles. So if the nudity and profanity bother you then steer clear.

Matt Huston   (May 23, 2008 at 12:00 GMT)   Resource Rating: 1

Even better said NR :D

Glenn Thomas   (May 23, 2008 at 13:17 GMT)

The problem you have is with the maturity level of the players not of the designers. As a designers you want to be the least restrictive as possible to give players a sense of ownership and freedom in the game environment. I commend the designers for crossing this threshold in gaming evolution because many wouldn't have and gamers would eventually have released a nude patch anyway. The game merits it and if they would of included actual content based on Conan's era the game would be an AO rating and would lose sales. I respect your morals though and a parental option to block nudity with censor signs and profanities as well may have been a wise choice. I hope this doesn't deter you for the countless other hours of greatness that Conan has to offer.

Britton LaRoche   (May 23, 2008 at 17:11 GMT)

Bioshock was so disgusting I stopped playing it. The graphics were nice, but the language and lack of plot was more than I could stomach. Killing little girls as part of the game was a total turn off for me. It was a sick game.

Ben Versaw   (May 23, 2008 at 17:30 GMT)

"The Conan stories were originally written in 1932 and were very dark and gloomy. The movies did a pretty good job keeping to the setting as well, have you by any chance seen them?"

Dark and gloomy is perfectly fine. I love scary movies and dark and gloomy games are a blast. However, throwing NPCs that talk like this: "$%# those %$#ing birds kill all of the $%#^ers and their $%#^ mothers too." Doesn't make the game dark and gloomy it makes it ridiculous. If anything the language takes -away- from the setting. There are plenty of ways to curse correctly and millions of way to curse so that you look like an idiot. So far every instance I've encountered in AoC (I have tried it at friends) is instances of cursing incorrectly. It takes away from the story and the potential success of the game.

"Bioshock was so disgusting I stopped playing it. The graphics were nice, but the language"

I enjoyed Bioshock to the extreme. I found it to be quite original and the plot was intriguing to me. Killing little girls - I had my doubts about the game when I heard about it but you have the option to save them.

"I hope this doesn't deter you for the countless other hours of greatness that Conan has to offer."

It already has. While I agree usually with you that developers should do whatever they want artistically its a bit different for a MMORPG. Even if they offered an option to censor the material I still would not play the game due to the lack of maturity from the players that will be drawn to it. Not all players mind you, just the ones that have gone (and you know they exist) "OMG CURSING and NUDITY this game will be so amazing".

Edit:

I believe my original point was lost somewhere in the ranting stage. My main point is that if they had left these items out I feel strongly that the game would have been a much better experience and attracted a -vastly- larger audience. I mean would anyone playing the game right now truly have decided not to play just because there is no Nudity and their NPCs at the very least curse when it makes sense rather than randomly?
Edited on May 23, 2008 17:42 GMT

Ross Pawley   (May 23, 2008 at 18:52 GMT)

I'd been following the game since somewhat before 2006, so I've seen this discussion come up there hundreds of times.

Honestly, if you have a problem with nudity and profanity, anything based on REH's work is probably not up your alley. Saying you want something based on his work that doesn't have either of those things is like saying you don't want swords or sorcery in Conan. They're an integral part of those works, hell there was practically a naked slave girl every two or three pages.

Also, players going around naked is nothing new. Tons of players ran around in their skin colored undergarments in other MMORPGs. The only difference is a few pixels.
Edited on May 23, 2008 18:53 GMT

BrokeAss Games   (May 23, 2008 at 19:53 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

"Conan, what is best in life?"
"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women!"
Titties, blood, and dismemberment are what Conan is all about.
When a game is made based off of an existing EPIC story, it is important to keep to the script pure.
Or a lot of fans will be dissapointed...
Edited on May 23, 2008 19:58 GMT

Britton LaRoche   (May 23, 2008 at 20:58 GMT)

I dunno guys, the Conan movie did not have any F** words. If its not tastefull or plot related, its out of place and just vulgar. I'm curious as to what your opinion of Grand theft Auto 4 is.

Ross Pawley   (May 23, 2008 at 21:13 GMT)

The Conan movies weren't especially accurate to REH's stories. If you think it's out of place and vulgar, REH is seriously not for you in any capacity. Conan is pretty much all about naked girls, killing, and drinking and cursing.

There are plenty of other MMOs not based on works that include these things, one of those might be more appropriate to your tastes.

Saying you don't want these things in a Conan based work, or anything based on REH that has to do with Hyboria is like saying you don't want Hobbits or Sauron in your LotR.

I think GTA4 is kind of boring and shallow, but that has little to do with the dialog.
Edited on May 23, 2008 21:13 GMT

Ben Versaw   (May 23, 2008 at 21:13 GMT)

Britton -exactly- everyone saying that Conan is dark and gritty is missing the point. Dark and gritty does not equal senseless and tasteless like Age of Conan is currently. And yes I -have- seen it in context (played it at a friend) so I'm not just ranting based on pretext. The language choice and cursing it out of context and poor and does not add to the "epic" or "dark" feel at it all. It hurts the game.

Grand Theft Auto 4 I have not played so I reserve my comments. I have however thought the games have been alright in the past, not my cup of tea but the contents of the game work in context.

Thought the hot coffee content was a unfortunate hindsight but its not like it was actually intended for gamers to see that content.

Ross Pawley   (May 23, 2008 at 21:15 GMT)

@Ben, as I've pointed out (and has been done on every thread that was ever made on the AoC forums in this vein) the movies had little to do with the works they were based on. If you don't like the fact that REH included these things in his stories, and they are thus in a game based on them, don't read them, don't play the game. No one is forcing you to.

Both of those things are a HUGE part of the Conan lore and stories. To say otherwise is just false.

Ben Versaw   (May 23, 2008 at 21:27 GMT)

"Both of those things are a HUGE part of the Conan lore and stories. To say otherwise is just false."

Must it really? Truly? Come on if the game did not feature senseless cursing (context appropriate swearing wouldn't bug me in the least) and nudity would the Conan fans still enjoy the game to the same extent? I think so - [insert context appropriate explicit] I know they would. To say otherwise is just laughable and I would love to hear anyone who would say they wouldn't play the game because of it.

However, they are plenty of gamers like myself who won't touch it because of it. Business 101 more customers is better and like it or not game development -is- a buisness.

Edit:

By the way. There is a word for materials that are all about naked women, violence, and vulgarity. Its called porn - which is accepted to be something vastly different than art and don't we all want video games to be accepted as art?
Edited on May 23, 2008 21:30 GMT

Scott Warren   (May 23, 2008 at 21:30 GMT)

There are millions of people world wide that Play games.
Not all games cater to every niche or even get close.
Many gamers ad-lib their cussing in the general chat of MMORPG's to skirt around the cussing filters.
Scantily clad men and women or streaking in a game fully nude appeals to some people as does cussing.

Just as every family works differently or many families are disfunctional there is a game to fit the niche but perhaps not enough of them.
Maybe there are people that can only relate to cussing, stealing cars, and shooting pedestrians.. sounds like a niche.
Maybe there are drunken parents that kick their dog and lock the kids out of the house.. there is a niche.
Maybe there are parents that create Drama in the home because they need to feel in control of SOMETHING even if it is just drama.. there is a niche..

How many games can you make with God fearing bible readers or every faith and not offend somebody?
Hey there is another Niche.

Maybe we need more games for people who make moonshine and spit snuff on the porch of their ratty broken home. another niche.

Friend, their are so many possibilities for niche games.. some will hit the market and succeed.. others will be designed and never get published.

I'm a hobbyist Gamer, and now I'm making my own game with TGE because there are elements I want in a game that I do not find in others. I'm filling my own niche.
Not everyone that plays games can make their own.. not ever... and some that can make their own games.. never do.

If their are game elements that offend you while playing a game, then simply play another one, or something else entirely different. Thats where the Indie comes in.. filling all those small niches that big game companies won't make for whatever reason.
And there is always enough room for more cussing games, more nudity games, more Stealing cars and robbing banks..games, sure it's wrong.. but you can smoke dope in a game and not go to prison.. you can cuss until your throat is sore and nobody will hate you for it. lol

Perhaps thats why those rated M games are so popular.

Ben Versaw   (May 23, 2008 at 21:32 GMT)

Scott and others I appreciate your comments I do. But seriously this is -exactly- why many people find it hard to define video games as an art or even that saying it is an art is desirable.

Ross Pawley   (May 23, 2008 at 21:43 GMT)

@Ben, the fact of the matter is, REH's stories have these elements in them. It's not an issue of "Why does it HAVE to have them?" but simply "It has them, period." That's just the sort of stories that he wrote. If you don't like it, I'm not sure how you can even enjoy REH's work. Those themes were both extremely prevalent. The game has them because they're part of REH's world. That's it.

The game *does* have parental controls for gore and nudity, and I believe even a profanity filter. If it still bothers you, I'm sure there are plenty of games without those elements based on works that don't include them. But the fact is, AoC isn't based on those works. It's based on REH's work, which DOES include those elements in abundance, thus they're in the game. Don't like it? Don't play it, don't read his stories, or simply use the provided filters. This has been debated so many times on the AoC pre-release forums it's not even funny. Literally hundreds of threads. Yet the game is still true to REH's work in those aspects, thus that's the way Funcom wanted it and I'm sure most REH fans wanted it too. It wouldn't be Conan otherwise.

Might as well take elves and dwarves out of LotR.

Michael (silentMike) Hall   (May 23, 2008 at 21:46 GMT)

Quote:

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There are plenty of ways to curse correctly and millions of way to curse so that you look like an idiot.

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Yeah but that is an opinion and subject to interpretation differently by different people. You don't like it, that's fine, but it seems to me you condemning the game based on your own beliefs and not a logical dispute. In fact that comes dangerously close to asking for censorship. Making people upset leads to controversy which leads to even more sales - underhanded Business 101, yeah, but it is a fact of life.

Looking at sales figures shows that plenty of fans are more than willing to accept the nudity and "pointless" cursing.

Raping and pillaging, drinking, and worshiping pagan gods was all part of the fun of the Conan stories. Trying to limit any of that, or designing the game for a less than mature crowd would in fact have made it just another boring hack and slash rpg much like WOW. Gratuitous violence and cursing is just a way of life to your average strapping low intellect barbarian.

Ben Versaw   (May 23, 2008 at 21:51 GMT)

Ross I understand that I do but you are still missing the point. The works have the content sure thats fine they are books, big deal I may even enjoy them.

Apparently you are a fan correct. If the profanity and nudity were absent from the game would you play it? Thats a yes or no question. If the answer is yes, then the smart decision would have been to simply leave it out.

The niche is not "we can run around naked omg" its "Conan fans" who I honestly believe would not miss the nudity or profanity at all. This one decision could of gathered them millions of more fans without hurting the Conan fans in the slightness.

If however the nudity and vulgarity is too much of importance to the world - which I really believe it isn't - that the game would suffer from its fans leaving then its an obvious choice to leave it in. Sadly however I do honestly believe that would make Age of Conan the first MMORPG that its success was due to being a porn program.

Ross Pawley   (May 23, 2008 at 22:05 GMT)

Okay, your question is functionally equivalent to, "If it were based on REH's Conan, but didn't have the 'offensive-to-religious-types' god Set in it, would you play it?" and the answer is no. If they broke any of the things that make Conan the series I'm a fan of, I wouldn't play it. There are a huge amount of other Conan fans that feel the same.

As I said though, they already catered to your demographic by allowing you to turn the potentially "offensive" (which I think is pretty sad for an adult to get offended over something as trivial as profanity and pixelated nudity) elements off entirely. So I don't really see your issue with the game there, but regardless, without those it's not Conan, it's some bastardization thereof.

I wouldn't play the game if they'd taken Set, Aquilonia, Stygia (which, btw, wouldn't even be possible in a logically consistent way without nudity, since Stygia contained many harems full of naked slave girls), Conan himself, Picts, Cimmerians or any number of things out. It simply wouldn't be a work of the series that REH made, it would be merely a poor imitation.

Edit: Besides, in game, there is very little cursing, nudity or etc. Save for player nakedness (which is TOP only btw), I hadn't seen a single naked NPC or anyone cursing for that matter (besides say "damn" or something). Like I said too, there are parental controls, so your point of contention is basically moot.

Edit edit: LOL @ "porn program". Pixelated breasts are hardly porn. Seriously man, if you want to crusade against nudity and curse words, more power to you. You're just not going to get very far with anyone that's a fan of REH's work. Like I said, this has been debated ad naseum on the AoC forums. Your argument (by proxy) got you parental controls. Funcom doesn't see the need to ruin the game for the majority of Conan fans because some people apparently can't be adult enough not to let a 10pixel square nipple bother them.

Edit edit edit: If anything is a "porn MMO" it's Second Life btw. Case in point, you can buy sex toys in it.
Edited on May 23, 2008 22:16 GMT

Ben Versaw   (May 23, 2008 at 22:33 GMT)

"If it were based on REH's Conan, but didn't have the 'offensive-to-religious-types' god Set in it, would you play it?"

Nope not at all. I don't care one once that there is a god called Set in it, nor do I even find it offensive. Its an artistic piece and having a different God is necessary to the piece.

"Set, Aquilonia, Stygia (which, btw, wouldn't even be possible in a logically consistent way without nudity, since Stygia contained many harems full of naked slave girls)"

Oh you of little imagination. There are countless ways to portray such things in a tasteful fashion.

"Besides, in game, there is very little cursing, nudity or etc. Save for player nakedness (which is TOP only btw), I hadn't seen a single naked NPC or anyone cursing for that matter (besides say "damn" or something). Like I said too, there are parental controls, so your point of contention is basically moot."

Really? Did the game change since yesterday? I have played the game you know, I'm assuming you have not.

The point is not to destroy the work of art its depicting it in a tasteful manner. Movies have learned to do so - games should take note. There is a huge difference between tasteful and untasteful - indeed it is even able to be defined in cold fact by law - and AoC is untasteful. The reason I care is not because of my morals its because I strongly believe in games as art and AoC is taking what could have been an artful yet tasteful portray of a popular series and making it true porn.

This extends to other industries as well though. Many movies that I enjoyed in theater for example, Epic Movie, came out with an unrated version which everyone I know including myself thought was far worse. The problem was I wanted to buy what I saw in theaters because I enjoyed it, not the trash that passed as a movie with an unrated sticker on it. Unfortunately, you can't find it anywhere. So yes people like you do actually cause my experience to be harmed.

Ross Pawley   (May 23, 2008 at 22:46 GMT)

Like I said, if you have that much of a problem with it, this probably isn't the game or setting for you. If you insist on playing it, use the filters. They're there for people like yourself that can't handle a tiny flesh-colored group of pixels being drawn onto their screen. If that seriously ruins your play experience and you refuse to use the filters that were provided for exactly this issue, I dunno what to tell you. Maybe go play WoW or something, or the cartoony-watered-down LotRO. "Tastefulness" is a matter of opinion. You seem to want to arbitrate morality for everyone on the planet, which is only a tad ridiculous.

And yes, I've played the game.

Also, I don't have to have imagination to have a Stygian harem without nudity. For one thing, I'd rather not imagine that at all, since that's not very appealing to me. In Conan, they have nudity. I like Conan, not <random-other-series-that's-extremely-censored>. So I'd rather imagine a Stygian harem that's actually true to the books, which means a bunch of nude slave girls (honestly, I don't see what the point in having a harem full of slave girls in business blazers and slacks (or equiv.) would be...). I'm an adult. I like breasts. I like nudity. I like Conan because it is what it is. That includes nudity and swearing profusely, possibly lots of drinking of the mead and some decapitation. I'm a fan of *that*, not *that* minus half its setting and censored for young kids. Conan has always always always been an adult themed series, constantly dealing with issues of sex. For the game to merely cut that out wholesale (even though people that have a problem with it have a perfectly good avenue to deal with it as is) would mean it would no longer be Conan, and thus not something I'd want to play.

So no, I'm not missing the point, which is that you don't like nudity. Fine. Good. More power to you. Whatever floats your boat and all that. But that isn't Conan. It just isn't. It's like asking to take the otherworldly madness inducing monsters out of Lovecraft. It just wouldn't be Lovecraft, just as Conan minus any sort of naked slave girls wouldn't be Conan.
Edited on May 23, 2008 22:51 GMT

Ben Versaw   (May 23, 2008 at 23:22 GMT)

"Like I said, if you have that much of a problem with it, this probably isn't the game or setting for you. If you insist on playing it, use the filters."

I have already stated I will not be playing or buying the game. The post is to game developers not its avid fans. The post is about how a game could have drawn millions of more people if it would remove one simple factor that despite all your claims do not make the game what it is - game developers understand this apparently you do not.

In your own words

[If you have that much of a problem with] my statements[, this probably isn't the] blog for you. [If you insist on] reading [it] remember I did warn you at the top of my post.

Ross Pawley   (May 23, 2008 at 23:40 GMT)

Sure they might have reached a larger market, but the fact is that anything based on Conan is going to be a niche including basically only adults. WoW can't have blood because it needs its low age rating. WoW did "mass market" to its furthest. AoC isn't about that. They're targeting the niche that likes Conan and REH, and that means nudity at the least.

"The post is about how a game could have drawn millions of more people if it would remove one simple factor that despite all your claims do not make the game what it is - game developers understand this apparently you do not." - Conan is what it is. That includes nudity. The game wouldn't be Conan if it wasn't true to what's in the books, including nudity. Most AoC fans feel likewise, which is why the game is selling like hotcakes and why Funcom refused to remove nudity despite the constant whining (by a vocal *minority*). So, apparently you're wrong, and Funcom understands the exact opposite: Conan fans, liking Conan in the first place (which has nudity), like nudity in their game.

This game was never going to be the mass market hit you seem to think it would if it didn't have nudity. The fact is that even without nudity and with a profanity filter, the game (like the books!) deals with adult themes. These would still be present in the game regardless, and definitely enough to push it out of Teen rating territory.

Also, Funcom and most Europeans don't have any problem with nudity, unlike the prude, dysfunctional, Puritan US of A. Hell, I think the German version doesn't even have the shading below the waist that the US version has. So, you're in a minority of an already tiny minority that hates nudity. Funcom is making bank off this game, which just goes to show your assertion that the game would be vastly more successful (it'd *still* have an M rating due to the reasons I stated above) without nudity just isn't true. They've already sold >1m copies. This game was never going to be sold to young kids anyway, and adults that can't handle a pixelated breast probably aren't REH fans anyway.

Also, if nudity is your only issue, you must be forgetting you can turn it off entirely if you so choose. So people with issues have this option available to them. I doubt that a feature that's easily turned off really deterred anyone or the sales of the game.
Edited on May 23, 2008 23:47 GMT

Jason Nabors   (May 24, 2008 at 08:51 GMT)   Resource Rating: 1

@Ben - Would you play Warcraft if they left the orcs and humans out? Probably huh? You have to accept the fact that each game has a fictional background they are based on. Both games are true to their setting. Wouldn't you think it was silly if someone posted a thread about how they think orcs are disgusting and should be left out of warcraft? Same concept. The gore, nudity and misogyny is part of the Conan setting. Sorry if you don't like it, millions do. You do have a choice to play or not however.

Also, you think if that they changed the authors setting that they could have millions of more people? Boggle. If anything they would lose those who come to expect a conan setting based on the author's original work only to find some water-downed version for minors.

But your point was made, this is for developers, now go make your conan killer :)
Edited on May 24, 2008 08:57 GMT

N R Bharathae   (May 24, 2008 at 15:57 GMT)

Man, leave the discussion for a couple of days and see what happens?

I wanted to clarify something about Robert E. Howard and the stories he wrote. REH was a pulp fiction writer which today would be similiar to a tabloid writer. There was no attempt in his work to communicate any moral teachings through the characters' actions or express any social comment in the content of the stories (except there was this one time Conan was put on trial where he promptly leapt across the courtroom, bludgened the judge to death on his stand then escaped out a nearby window! That's my favorite.).

It was the nature of Howard's stories to be brusk, entertaining and easy to read. Naturally they were a hit, maybe because they appealed to the lowest common denominator of violence and maybe his readership wanted something like that since the country was still struggling with the Great Depression.

You could argue that REH was a low-brow writer since all of his other heroes, like Soloman Kane and Bran Mak Morn, were pretty much the same as Conan in temperment. That and the fact that Howard himself was a rough-neck Texan who loved to box and pick fights at local bars may be indicators of the type of person he was and subsequently wrote about. As a result, generally, that's the mindset of readers that find Conan and enjoy his adventures. So basically, you don't read Conan to gain a sense of higher moral or spiritual fulfillment, you read Conan for a quick thirty minute fix of ass-kicking and physical dismemberment as Conan hacks he way through the Hyborian world.

If that's what the developers have achieved with Age of Conan then that's ok with me. And if the users of the game are childish enough to overuse the profanity and nudity then so be it, they're just having fun. Don't worry about it, there are more important things to get bent out of shape over. If you feel inclined to rant about something try screaming at Bush/Cheney and the Federal Reserve for what they've done to the US economy. Your efforts will have greater effect there, believe me.

Vernon Finch   (May 24, 2008 at 16:12 GMT)

Each to their own.

This was not a fresh IP based game, this is based on Conan, and many people have been looking forward to it because it is trying to be true to its source.

Business 101 isn't as simple as you make it out to be. If they were to make it more mainstream, then it creeps on the toes of other MMO's (e.g. World of Warcraft).

Quote:

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Apparently you are a fan correct. If the profanity and nudity were absent from the game would you play it? Thats a yes or no question. If the answer is yes, then the smart decision would have been to simply leave it out

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You make the assumption rather than suggest it. I know people that would not have played it had they tamed it down, my flatmate is an avid Conan lore fan (I however am not). Some may have played it if it was tamed down, but that does not mean they wouldn't be disappointed and be better off for it.

I once rented the Shawshank Redemption because it is one of my favourite movies, and I wanted to show it to this lady who I thought would really enjoy it too. She ended up storming out of the room early in the movie really upset at the profanity in the movie. I didn't expect it, nor agree with her, but I certainly didn't try to tell her what she should like and what she shouldn't. It simply was not for her.

Perhaps Age of Conan simply is not for you?
Edited on May 24, 2008 16:18 GMT

BrokeAss Games   (May 24, 2008 at 23:17 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

Quote:

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Britton -exactly- everyone saying that Conan is dark and gritty is missing the point. Dark and gritty does not equal senseless and tasteless like Age of Conan is currently. And yes I -have- seen it in context (played it at a friend) so I'm not just ranting based on pretext. The language choice and cursing it out of context and poor and does not add to the "epic" or "dark" feel at it all. It hurts the game.

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Are we talking about the same Conan?
Dark, gritty, senseless and tasteless IS the Conan from Age of Conan AFAIK.

[Warning: links below contain nude images from the movie and comic book]
http://images.celebritymoviearchive.com/members/thumbs/b/bM2902-SandahlBergman@ConanTheBarbarian.jpg
http://images.celebritymoviearchive.com/members/thumbs/b/bM2903-LeslieFoldvary@ConanTheBarbarian.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d8/Conan_-24_nude_cover_variant.jpg/180px-Conan_-24_nude_cover_variant.jpg

So I guess my question is this:
Is your problem with the original story of Conan or mature rated games?
Currently my project has some mature content and I'm curious about the point of view of those who dislike M rated games.
I am not a barbarian nor do I follow their beliefs, but I do like the untarnished truth, and if it's barbarians we are dealing with, I don't need Jarjar Binx to help me cope with it.
Just put a big M on it and I'll know to use caution before letting impressionable minds see or hear it.

Possibly this thread may have more insight to the root of the problem?
Edited on May 24, 2008 23:26 GMT

Don Hogan   (May 27, 2008 at 14:48 GMT)

I'd like to make a couple of observations in regards to where the discussion seems to have wound up currently. And no, I haven't played the game, I'm waiting for a free trial before I drop $50. =P

Howard's original Conan has been interpreted, retold and expanded so many times, by so many novels and comic books, by so many different authors I find it hard to really get behind the idea of 'one true Conan' or the 'true spirit of Conan.'

Profanity loses it's impact when it's overused. If thrown about like your run of the mill adjective or adverb, what's left to use when you really want to make a point or shock the player? The notion of using the 'right tool for the job' very much applies to writing; even the most basic dialog in games is important to do well, since it supports the overall crafting of a world's setting.

The profanity in Conan was contextual to his world, and if the game has crossed over into profanity in the language and context of our world and time I would have to say it was bad writing and a bad design decision. I.e. it breaks the suspension of disbelief that you should be trying to establish as part of crafting 'the dark and gritty world of Conan.'

I guess I'll take a shot at the nudity aspect as well. Basically, I guess it matters less to me that a character (PC or NPC) is nude and more to me what they're doing while nude. Yeah, that's about it. A player running around jumping, emoting, and generally being a dork is going to bother me whether their avatar is clothed or not. I personally would love to see an ignore list in a game that adds in the choice to not even render the players on the list.

C. N.   (May 27, 2008 at 21:28 GMT)

I don't play Conan and I doubt I ever will, but I find this thread bothering...

Something I find odd is that it's the nudity and cursing that's being addressed here. So the author of this thread, in his "good ol' Christian morals" has no problem at all with the bloody violence? Do you find a pair of breasts more offensive than decapitation or dismemberment?

Is it possible for somebody to explain this unbalance to me?

Ross Pawley   (May 27, 2008 at 21:58 GMT)

@Chris, yeah I thought about noting that, but that opens a whole different can of worms. All you have to remember is that at least in the US, because of latent Puritanism, violence is perfectly fine in all situations, and any sort of nudity is THE DEVIL. I find it an interesting (and unfortunate) double standard (it almost isn't, given that by default nudity should be "less bad" by any reasonable measure, but Puritanism certainly isn't reasonable).

C. N.   (May 27, 2008 at 22:09 GMT)

@Ross:

Haha, I couldn't have said it better myself. I agree 100%.

Don Hogan   (May 27, 2008 at 23:15 GMT)

@ Chris and Ross - the thread's gone so far the original point has been lost in the shuffle. If you will consider just this line, you'll see that Ben was approaching this very even handedly, he just took exception to the presentation of this particular game.

Quote:

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Now lets set something straight first. I am by no means a "bible preaching fun hater" or whatever you want to call them and I have no issues with profanity, violence, or even nudity in a game.

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He then provided an example of a game that's rated M which he felt

Quote:

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contained profanity and violence and all sorts of "Mature" things but everything was funny and existed for a reason.

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I'm jumping in deeper here because having read this thread I feel that people have simply jumped onto their favorite part of the bandwagon/soapbox/dead horse without objectively considering the real point that was being put out for discussion.

BrokeAss Games   (May 27, 2008 at 23:59 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

Quote:

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I'd like to make a couple of observations in regards to where the discussion seems to have wound up currently. And no, I haven't played the game, I'm waiting for a free trial before I drop $50. =P

Howard's original Conan has been interpreted, retold and expanded so many times, by so many novels and comic books, by so many different authors I find it hard to really get behind the idea of 'one true Conan' or the 'true spirit of Conan.'

---

I'm sure the developers of AOC or at least the producer(s) are very familiar with the original Conan story (I have played the game).
How about Star Wars or Lord of The Rings?
Is it ok to change those stories too?
I'm not so much worried about the nudity and violence.
Those are parts of real life, and I have seen my share of both and as I stated above, just put an adult or a mature rating on material so that I can be assertive about how it is handled.
I'm more concerned about changing (and IMO, corrupting or in way lying about) an epic story that is known by at least tens of thousands of people.
To me, it would be like changing history in school books.
If we keep "dumbing things down", future generations may not be aware of facts like: barbarians were not "good guys" and don't leave your women or livestock with them.
LOL, OK, but seriously...
I feel it's important to keep all stories intact so that we can avoid past mistakes and understand our own nature.
After all, stories are written by people and most are based off of history or current surroundings (ask Lucas or Tolkein).
I once received an email requesting I not use "demon", "devil" or anything of "unholy" nature in my project.
I replied back that the storyline of my project contained none of those but that I did have a religious faction that was on a crusade to wipe out (genocide) a "mutant" race.
The author of the email replied that that was good and made no comment on the crusade.
Maybe the person had just played Doom or Doom II, I'm not exactly sure what influenced the person to contact me.
The fact that someone would come along and try to change the story I am telling worried me a great deal, because the storyline of my project is based off of world and life events that I and others have experienced.
In fact, my setting is purposely skewed to reflect how history and reality can get warped by individual perception, "dumbing down" and mis-information.
As an example, in our setting, a "Hey Kewlaid!" T-shirt means a pitcher of enemy blood, since nobody in our setting has any idea what "Kewlaid" really is.
I do understand how a large commercial company changing a storyline to fit the market happens all the time.
They are about making money.
But is it ok to sell a person's perception and ideas down the road for entertainment and media?
These are some of the reasons why I chose to be an Indie developer.
I'd rather "keep it real" than lie for money (hence my namesake).
I'll try and portray my question in a way that is easier to identify with...
Is it ok to change The Bible (yet again)?
It contains nudity, violence, and many horrible events that are a too vulgar to describe in this forum.
It also contains very important stories about history and teaches lessons about human nature.
Every GOOD story should have both sides.
Shakespear couldn't have written a love story without tragedy.
Life is a learning experience. Teach me what you have experienced and how it affected you, so that I can better understand the people that I share it with.
I am not trying to start a flame war or berate anyone.
I am trying to understand and make choices about these opinions, but first, I need answers from those that have them.

Ari (Lead Developer, Ruin Online)

"Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself."
Milton Friedman

"When I look back on it now, I am so glad that the one thing that I had in my life was my belief that everything in life is a learning experience, whether it be positive or negative. If you can see it as a learning experience, you can turn any negative into a positive."
Neve Campbell

"Literary critics, however, frequently suffer from a curious belief that every author longs to extend the boundaries of literary art, wants to explore new dimensions of the human spirit, and if he doesn't, he should be ashamed of himself."
Robertson Davies
Edited on May 28, 2008 00:07 GMT

Ross Pawley   (May 28, 2008 at 00:03 GMT)

@Don, I agree Ben's posts are completely reasonable. In my last post I wasn't even really referring to the discussion (whoops ;P) but merely what Chris had added.

I still think that having nudity and/or profanity in AoC changes very little though. Players act retarded (running around in undergarments etc.) in every MMO regardless.

Don Hogan   (May 28, 2008 at 01:32 GMT)

@ Ari - I'm really sorry, but you lost me to a certain extent. I guess that I viewed Ben's original plan as a commentary on how it was handled as opposed to whether or not the mature content was there. It's obviously an expression of his preference in how mature content is done, give that he was ok with Penny Arcade. I didn't take it to mean an endorsement of any sort of revisionist history with regards to Conan.

On a tangent, can you even have revisionist history with fiction? There's an interesting subject for sure - do the Civil War and Secret Invasion story arcs in recent comics represent a true continuation of those settings or are they merely heavy handed ways to change something that an editor who's finally 'risen to power' never liked in the first place? Going with your example, how about Lucas and Spielberg essentially re-creating the movies that they made years ago? Is it ok because they were the creators? They still can be considered to have betrayed many people who hold those original movies near and dear.

Back on topic, the quote you have pulled was meant to express: 1) A fact about the Conan IP. In many introductions to a Conan anthology, whether comic or novel, this concept of reinterpretation is typically acknowledged. 2) It includes my opinion on the idea that there is a single true and accurate interpretation of Howard's Conan Universe. That's just how I feel. People here obviously feel differently from the next person and so on down the line.

So in that regard, I don't think you're ever going to get answers from anyone regarding these opinions. It does however seem to me that by taking on these discussions, people like you, me and others are on the way to finding answers for ourselves - which I think is far better, anyway.

@Ross - I do in fact agree it wouldn't be Conan without those things. When I get around to seeing the game, or hopefully having a trial of my own, it will be interesting to see whether or not I notice the same things as Ben. There are several things in LotRO that I noticed and sort of felt 'broke the history' that a friend laughed at when I mentioned them. Everyone's different!

But just think about the ignore filter I described - no more naked dancing trolls on top of the mail boxes in WoW... a thing of beauty. (No, not the trolls...)

BrokeAss Games   (May 28, 2008 at 03:14 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

@Ben
Thx, your post gave me some perspective on this touchy subject.
Recently my project was reviewed by a hilarius and very offensive little mouthbreather.
Things that were brought up were nudity ("asscrack"), lack of male genitalia when nude, some cultural issues, naked (unfinished) NPCs and a stripper in a bar.
So I have been thinking about these issues alot (like your experience with AOC).

I am waaay too involved with this thread, but it's a fairly serious topic for any of us Indie developers.
And you can't have a topic like this without some long winded ranting!
If you want to skip the rant:
What is wrong with the Adult settings in AOC?

Being a coder, I want to breakdown, analyze, and understand something until it provides a usable solution.
So here goes...
Ben take no offense, I'm just using you, myself and the theortical Ubuntu (named from a Linux flavor and theoretical because I wasn't able to find a tribal warrior in a remote jungle village that was online) as variables. :p




That kind of describes the perception as being cultural.
To not disrespect Ubuntu and his culture, lose a potential "conservative" customer or a "liberal" customer, we need to cater to all of them.

Nudity can be percieved in many ways.
Artistic, Pornographic and Natural may be able to sum them up.
But it is about perception and mindset.
Sometimes a sun-bathing beauty is all three, but it depends on how it's perceived, it's context and a person's mood.
A solution is to make two modes of nudity, Moderate and Realistic.
To protect various cultural views, Realistic mode would have to be "unlocked" by a "mature" user.
"Sorry Ubuntu, but in my culture some consider it disrespectful to not wear coverings so we put in settings for both cultures, I hope you think that is wise and are not offended at how we portrayed your culture to some people."
Once the Realistic setting is active, it's up to the person how they perceive or portray the nudity.

Violence is mostly accepted by the market, to the point of pure non-sense.
So we could use three settings, Moderate, Realistic and Gore.
Default would be moderate and Realistic and Gore would have to be "unlocked" by a "mature" user.
However, including this at all, in any form, may disrespect the culture we are basing the entertainment off of.
Yet we do it anyway, alot.

Foul Language may ruin a story for some people.
But it can also convey an important part of the story.
For example, the character is a total idiot and doesn't have anything nice to say, but you have to deal with him because he has information you need, and you are supposed to walk away a little angry, it's part of the story).
Now (after thinking about this thread), I believe a story can be modified without completely butchering it.
Again, we could use two settings Moderate and Realistic.
Moderate being the default.

Moderate being the default for all settings however may limit the first time user's experience.
It's possible in their rush to play the game they didn't know their were settings and didn't get the experience they expected.
Oh well, it seems you have to cater to the "conservative" culture first if you want to cater to them at all.
But it's not hard to change a setting for anyone who wants it, so basically if you want more, click more.

There are many games that are pure fantasy and none of these rules apply.
They are usually either pure genious or complete drivel (even if VERY addictive).
I am talking about games that nearly simulate reality.

Now I have some answers and better questions.
To the point, finally!

Quote:

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Is it ok to change The Bible (yet again)?

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Sure, if you are trying to convey the story to someone who may be offended by certain content, but make sure there is a pure form to cater to those who would be offended at the lack of certain content.

My main 2 questions:

Did I miss any possible conent that needs to be dynamic to fit the target (and possibly, the subject) market/culture(s)?
What kind of "unlock" by "mature" user mechanics need to be used and can a 9 year old over-ride it?
What is wrong with the Adult settings in AOC?

Thanks to this thread, I'm probably going to have to include Moderate settings in my project so that the story can be accepted by more cultures than my own.
And a story can be re-told without butchering it.
I know it's nothing new, I'm just trying to catch up.

Ari (Lead Developer, Ruin Online)
Edited on May 28, 2008 03:44 GMT

Ben Versaw   (May 28, 2008 at 03:41 GMT)

Everyone with few exceptions missed the complete point of my post. I have played the game and the profanity and nudity shown does not exist in context and make the game feel ridiculous. Should they be abolished?

I don't believe so nor desire it - the post is not that the content should not exist and if you had read it you would have caught that drift. The content that is there is out of context even within Conan, after all you want to be someone people fear right? Not someone people laugh at because you say explicits every other word. That is the point I'm making AoC is not dark and gritty in its current iteration its just absurd.

Perhaps there needs to be a "Game Developers guide to how to swear without looking like a 14 year old"?

Since my point has been missed by most I'm ducking out of this discussion now. Quit being fanbois and considering the argument on the table and maybe I'll be back.
Edited on May 28, 2008 03:42 GMT

BrokeAss Games   (May 28, 2008 at 03:54 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

There are "griefers" on every server of every game online, you just have to learn how to deal with them. ;)
Edited on May 28, 2008 03:55 GMT

Matt Huston   (Jun 03, 2008 at 12:01 GMT)   Resource Rating: 1

I got the game a few days after release and am now level 40. I haven't heard any swearing in the game from the NPCs. Nobody has ran around naked, occasionally female NPCs might be naked but that is because they were captured and being tortured by the enemy.

Britton LaRoche   (Jun 18, 2008 at 22:03 GMT)

I bought the game to see what it was about and I like it. Very few people run around naked, because they miss the benifits of Armor. I see no naked people in the higher levels becuase its such a cost to not have clothing or armor in battle.

On the other hand I do see a few topless female characters at the beggining. They can't be completely naked because at a minimum they have a G string on the topless female. I dont let my kids play though. I consider it to be like an R rated movie.

Still, I can see why you would be turned off by it at first glance, that is where you see all the topless female player characters... the beginning of the game.

Here are my thoughts on playing as a barbarian.
Exploring the Age of Conan
Edited on Jun 18, 2008 22:04 GMT

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