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Phil Carlisle   (Aug 16, 2007 at 19:45 GMT)

You touched a raw nerve with me, because I did something interesting this last week.

After I posted about the future of TV being internet based and talked about MMO's being the next thing on from that. I did a silly thing and did a search for "MMO" on youtube. Suffice to say that the video's on youtube bear out your comments. Basically there is a "template" most MMO's use that seems to involve level grinding and "click select, attack, bash bash bash level up!".

Anyway, it doesnt HAVE to be like that. Think about games like audition, albatross18, a tale in the desert, puzzle pirates etc. Online mini-mo's that have something unique and NOT a level grind. Well, not in the traditional sense.

Seriously, go on youtube and type in "korean MMO" for a giggle at the template.

Tom Eastman (Eastbeast314)   (Aug 16, 2007 at 19:52 GMT)

Just about every day I discuss the problems of WoW with my roommate. He's playing right now, so I can go in at any time, watch for a few minutes, and cry about the state of the world.

But really, there are lots of design decisions that seem motivated by money - and not fun. I really, really want to play the kind of game you're talking about get made. Someone will make it eventually - and it'll be awesome. So, good luck. If you take too long though, I might get around to beating you ;)

Jeremy Jenkins   (Aug 16, 2007 at 20:29 GMT)

I would love to play an MMO like that (i'm not a real big fan of WoW type games), but my computer and most other people's computer couldn't handle it. 50 people shooting maching guns at each other would take its toll on your machine. (Not to bash your ideas or anything, just a thought. I actually like most of your ideas)

I also like the idea of making your own bases and land, but i am curious how that would really work. I mean does your chunck of land disappear when your not on? If not, how do you defend it, while your not there?

Anyway, i agree with what your saying and good luck

Claude-Alain Fournier   (Aug 16, 2007 at 20:42 GMT)

Have a look at Adellion

Ethan Groves   (Aug 16, 2007 at 23:20 GMT)

Heh, I've been designing a game with those very features and many more for the past five years...

I can't tell you how much I DISLIKE having the computer decide whether I hit that orc or not. LET IT BE MY OWN SKILL!!! NOT RANDOM NUMBERS!!! GAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!! *Panting heavily as he stares hatefully at the pathetic game* That's why I can't stand Runescape. [/rant]

I wonder... Have you really thought through the implications that some of your ideas present? When you introduce the concept of owning land, suddenly things get REALLY complicated REALLY fast.

Anyway, I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Basically, I want to be able to make a difference in the game. Whether it's aiming my gun or changing the world... I don't want to be just another face in the crowd.

...It's time to make a difference!

(Okay, so I got a little carried away.)

Unsung Zero   (Aug 17, 2007 at 00:19 GMT)

I feel like I've read this .plan a billion times. :[

Ross Pawley   (Aug 17, 2007 at 02:40 GMT)

Anyone play Planetside when it first started? It was fantastic. MASSIVE battles, really gave that "holy crap, this is war" feeling when you had hundreds of players in various vehicles and in different roles all fighting in a big continent.

I definitely agree though, MMOs that are Everquest-likes (WoW, LoTRO etc) are basically a waste. Having what is essentially an online die-rolling chat room to me seems very pointless. It's little more than keyboard whack-a-mole when you've set up your keyboard hotbar to be in the order necessary to do all your attacks. You basically press one key to target, then press the 1 key to start auto-attacking, then press 2-0 (possibly - and = as well, if you have that many abilities) and repeat starting from 2 until the miscellaneous creature is defeated. Rinse and repeat several hundreds of thousands of times.

That's not what an MMO should be, at all. The games that do break the mold tend to fail though, as evinced by Planetside, DDO (though that suffers from the developers not understanding and/or ignoring D&D balance, which is clearly evident by the fact that low level monsters have AC ratings in the 30s and 40s and most casters have infinite spell points). DDO particularly did some very fun and innovative things, but failed in a lot of areas that caused it to be merely mediocre.

On DDO:
Personally I think the reasons it wasn't so good are 1) the fact that the balance was completely broken, 2) all areas are instanced, so you never get the feeling of a large "world" which is something inherently necessary for D&D, and by extension, a D&D based MMO, 3) lack of content. Many people had to complete the same quests multiple times to level up, defeating the point. What Turbine *should* have done, was allow players to contribute and DM modules with friends, in a massive environment. This would solve issues 1 and 3 at the least.

Things they did right:
1) All experience is gained based on the quest level, not the per-kill level. You gain modifiers based on objectives completed in the quest. This essentially means there is no reason to merely go and "grind". However, lack of a large amount of quests made it so you had to "grind quests" by repeating them for experience.

2) The traps. They are all physical, as in PnP RPGs. So if you walk into a trap and it's blades coming out of the wall, you have the ability to *dodge* out of the way, manually. So you would end up triggering the trap, and being able to avoid it based on your own skill. Skills involved with finding them are purely character based for the most part, which is good.

3) You were able to complete quests in many different ways. As a rogue, you could hide/move silently through many of the challenges. As a wizard or sorceror, you could possibly complete them in interesting ways with various spells. Even fighting classes had some of this, since it was possible to dodge arrows, or trap enemies into compromised positions for increased effectiveness in battle.

I would go into what made Planetside great and not so great, but that would be a far longer block of text. It boils down to whining people on the forums ending up in questionable balance patches, a lack of variety in the bases, and the fact that the player population continued to decline over the years.

Trace Kern   (Aug 17, 2007 at 05:40 GMT)

Quote:

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I would love to play an MMO like that (i'm not a real big fan of WoW type games), but my computer and most other people's computer couldn't handle it. 50 people shooting maching guns at each other would take its toll on your machine. (Not to bash your ideas or anything, just a thought. I actually like most of your ideas)

I also like the idea of making your own bases and land, but i am curious how that would really work. I mean does your chunck of land disappear when your not on? If not, how do you defend it, while your not there?

Anyway, i agree with what your saying and good luck

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Well, when I first started playing Planetside way back when, I didn't have that great a computer, but I could easily handle 50+ people firing all sorts of weapons at once.
As long as the game is designed and programmed well, then just becuase you're using guns instead of swords won't really matter much at all.

As for bases, no your land won't vanish while you're gone. If/when I or someone else implements this kind of feature, it would incorporate AI to enable you to set up automated defenses in the event that you happen to be offline when that PC or NPC horde comes knocking.

Which actually reminds me of another idea I'm willing to let others steal, especially seeing as I didn't actually come up with it.
Imagine that you're a single PC player commanding a dozen or more NPC soldiers, sent by your PC commander to exterminate an nest of insectoid aliens off on the borderlands. Okay, so you order your soldiers into the APCs and head out. The NPCs are mainly controlled by AI, they can be given orders such as Follow Me, Attack My Target, Fire At Will, etc.
Your squad heads towards the nest, and you pull up to unload the troops. As you open up with atillary a swarm of warrior bugs comes rushing down the rise of the nest, crying for blood.
Your troops open up with guns and rockets, cutting down the bugs as they rush you. Overhead some flying bugs swoop in and cut down a few of your soldiers.
Soon though the stream of warrior bugs reaches your front lines and it goes into close range combat, sometimes with shotguns, sometimes with plasma swords.
In the end you manage to wipe out the bugs, and blast the hive to a smoking ruin with your big guns from the rear. The day is won!

Now, sounds impossible right? Too many NPCs relying on AI right?
Nope.

There's already a game called Saga of Ryzom which utilizes an AI controller which is capable of running literally thousands of NPC units simultaneously, all without noticeable client lag or slowdown.
The basics are that undividual units can be controlled for skirmish fighting, larger numbers (squads) can be handled by another agent, armies by yet another, and the whole swarm by yet another.
What this results in is a completely NPC enemy race/army/horde which will actually respond to player actions and input.

Leave that enemy hive untouched, it'll build it's numbers to a critical point, at which it will begin moving into surrounding territory, attacking enemies as they're encountered, focusing attention on tough opponents, garrisoning key locations...
Basicly, acting like a more or less intelligent army would!

It's possible. It's already been done once, and it *can* be done again. All it takes is the right mix of dedication, talent, and tools to make it a reality.

My point? Don't be afraid to dream big, but especially don't be afraid to think totally out of the box and be different, not just in flavor, but ingredients!

David Dougher   (Aug 17, 2007 at 14:48 GMT)

Let's not forget that there are two realities here.

The first is that games like WoW sell. They sell a lot. You might decry the level grind, but when you look at the gameplay, the artwork, the sound effects, and the audio, it is meshed together to create a really fun, immersive environment. 9 million subscribers think it's worth playing.

The second is that while there are other ways that MMO's can be approached none have produced the kind of numbers that these games have. Level based grind games are the 80% market. That means that there is still a 20% market out there for niche MMO's. It also means that there is more opportunity for niche development which means smaller teams, meybe even indie teams.

I have been working on Adellion for quite a while now and I can honestly say that it is very different than WoW, or Asheron's call, or EQ or LotR, or any of a dozen other major MMO titles. It is also a niche MMO - the game is not architected for the kinds of numbers WoW gets. We would collapse in a second with those kinds of numbers. Instead we are going for a very specific market, one we feel is large enough to support the kind of game we are building. We won't be buying Ferrari's when it launches, but we will be having fun and making a living.

Which brings me to my point. I hear all the time about people bad mouthing FPS games, MMO games, RTS games as all being the same as Quake, WoW, StarCraft (fill in your favorite comparison here.) It simply isn't true. Yes, the game mechanics are similar, but every one of those MMO's, FPS's and RTS's has their own story to tell.

It's like a book or a movie. Yes, a lot of sci-fi, fantasy, murder mysteries, seem to be the same. Each genre has its own thematic lines most have similar underlying plots. But people LIKE those plots. They will read similar barbarian stories over and over because they like the big brawny guy finally sticking it to the evil wizard and riding off with the rescued damsel.

The bigger games become, the more we will see replays of the popular themes. Big game producers need blockbusters just like TV and Movies and Books do. MMO's are the biggest money maker out there in the game world, but they also carry the highest risk, so don't be surprised to see a repeating fantasy or sci-fi theme, or similar game mechanics, and even similar artwork.

It will be in the niche markets that you will find the different stuff. It's simple economics. If people didn't like the way games like EQ and WoW and LotR worked they wouldn't buy them anymore. But they really do, and they are willing to pay for them. I like making niche games. As soon as Adellion launches I will be moving onto another niche game. It doesn't mean I think less of anybody who made WoW. In fact, I have the utmost respect for them. They are dealing with balance issues, and population issues I hope to never, ever see.

So don't put down game companies who are making the games the majority of people like to play. If your tastes run to a different theme look for games that support you. They are out there. And if they are not then build them. That's what being an indie is all about.
Edited on Aug 17, 2007 14:50 GMT

Mario N. Bonassin   (Aug 17, 2007 at 16:37 GMT)

Check out Neocron, ifs its still around. It was a MMO that was the first to be FPS based, yes it was out before planetside. It was very fun, good storylines, plenty of factions you can create a character for, but limited character types. The items you made were actually better than the drops. But there weren't any kind of dungeons, at least not like people want to day. It was a heavy PvP world, it had an opt out option but if you didn't opt out early you were stuck. They had a ton of vehicles, Which i remember having huge races across the world sponsored by gms that gave out items, very fun and different from the general grind. But it was zone based, so you'd travel for 3min then zone for 2min. It also had apartments and clan apartments that you could share items much easier. and Hackers

Since it was a completely twitch fps system that was one of it biggest downfalls. If you weren't a master at FPS they you were dead every time. I played the game for a year and I still was never able to beat those Halo junkies. But the system offers some to very little skills that improved your chances. Any MMO needs to have skills that make hitting something a random factor. Its the only way to maintain a constant balance between skilled and unskilled people. Otherwise your unskilled people will get frustrated with getting killed all the time and quit. Thats one of the reasons WoW did so well, KISS.

Conan has an interesting combat system which may do some bridging.

I just did a quick search on Neocron and it looks like they have a new version out, which may have addressed some of these issues.
Edited on Aug 17, 2007 16:40 GMT

Trace Kern   (Aug 17, 2007 at 17:07 GMT)

@David - On most points but one, I agree with your comments here. My only point with this blog is that I see far too many indie teams or solos assume that the only way to make an MMO is to copy the big guys. That that's all there is to an MMO and to do anything else is crazy, stupid, (insert derogitory adjective here).

Yes, niche games is where an indie team really should be focusing their attention, because to take on the big markets without a *lot* of talent might well be financial suicide.

Now, as for your other assertion, that 80% of the market *wants* those "grind" games? I'd have to disagree.
I've done a lot of research into player reviews, opinion polls, and player retention stats reports; all spanning many websites, magazines, and fan-forums. The general conclusion I've come to is this. At least 25-50% of the players who currently play the big games play them because they feel that's all there is. They "like" them only because they don't know anything better.
Many are the times I've seen forums drowned with posts decrying the "grind" nature of most big MMOs. Only they don't know what else there is to play.

Now, there are still a *lot* of players who probably do in fact enjoy the big games. And even for me it was fun for a while. Just that that so-called niche market is probably a lot larger than people realize.
There's hundreds, probably thousands of players out there that are looking for something... Something *different* than what they're already playing. They move from game to game, staying for a few months, only to move on to the next fad.

In any event, take my opinions for what you will. But *my* bottom line is this:
Indies, don't ignore unique and different ideas! Make the games *you* want to play, not what everyone else is making. You're already small, so don't be afraid to take risks and try something different.
You might just be suprised with what you create...

Wysardry   (Aug 17, 2007 at 18:38 GMT)

The biggest problem is that many people seem to think that the terms "MMO(G)" and "MMORPG" are unconditionally interchangeable.

Another related problem is that game genres in general are becoming more loosely defined, which is confusing for newcomers and frustrating for more experienced players.

If you start removing and/or changing features found in a particular genre eventually you will reach a point where it should not be classified as such. One obvious example of developers ignoring this is Oblivion, which plays like an above average RPG/FPS hybrid, but is a mediocre experience if you're expecting an RPG.

Thomas Buscaglia   (Aug 17, 2007 at 20:08 GMT)

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I feel like I've read this .plan a billion times. :[

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The sad thing is that many developers still don't get it.

Good rant.

Ross Pawley   (Aug 18, 2007 at 00:25 GMT)

The idea that because WoW has 9 million subscribers must mean that those people want to play a boring Everquest-like keyboard whack-a-mole game is entirely specious. A huge proportion of the total is made up by 1) guild mules, 2) people that play solely because they have friends that play it, or what I like to call, the 3d-chat-MMOG-phenomena and 3) they played it to the point where they have a financial and emotional attachment to their character that's not easy to give up. Given an objective poll of the 5-6million subscribers that are actually linked to real humans and not part of duplicate accounts or guild-mules, I seriously doubt that under 50% would prefer a WoW (an Everquest-like) style "game" (if it can even be called that) to something with actual gameplay**, such as Planetside (as an example, obviously it would have to be in the same genre and style). Of course, a minority of players are vehemently opposed to having any skill required in such games.

WoW, et al (all Everquest-likes) inherently have no gameplay. They are essentially just die rollers with a chat room attached. My reasoning for this assertion is due to the fact that the player does not in fact control his characters actions outside the realm of "attacking" or "not-attacking". It is simply a game of "press the number row in order, then repeat for the next enemy" which can't be said to be "gameplay".

Ethan Groves   (Aug 19, 2007 at 03:15 GMT)

Quote:

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WoW, et al (all Everquest-likes) inherently have no gameplay. They are essentially just die rollers with a chat room attached. My reasoning for this assertion is due to the fact that the player does not in fact control his characters actions outside the realm of "attacking" or "not-attacking". It is simply a game of "press the number row in order, then repeat for the next enemy" which can't be said to be "gameplay".

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Amen.

Trace Kern   (Aug 19, 2007 at 05:58 GMT)

You know, when I posted this blog, I hadn't expected to touch off the firestorm it almost seems to have become.
Not saying anyone's flaming, just that this seems to be a hot topic.

Now, my originaly purpose in writing this was to try and encourage new indies to try and think beyond the so called "tried and true" formulas for making an MMO*.
I don't want to say there is any "right way" to make any kind of game, even an MMO. I was just personally annoyed at seeing so many potential developers assuming there was only one path.

With that said, feel free to continue to debate amongst yourselves. I'm gonna go back to trying to learn enough C++ so I can keep moving forwards in my own projects.

Kevin McLaughlin   (Aug 19, 2007 at 06:04 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

Bartle wrote an interesting article a while back, lamenting that "MMOs are being developed to the tastes of newbies", or some such. While I disagree with some of his conclusions, he DID have some valid points.

Since 1999, the number of MMO subs has doubled every two years, fairly consistently. Given that people drop out of the hobby too, that means that at any given time maybe 50% or so of the playerbase has played these games for under a year. They don't have the experience to know WHAT they want, yet; and they have not had the time to become tired and jaded to the "Stock MMO Build".

This then helps to explain the phenominon where internet polls and forums CLEARLY show that "nobody" likes the EQ/WOW model, but millions of people are playing it anyway. The people answering the polls are the veteran players, for the most part. They're...us. People who have played for years, and are sick to tears with the same old stuff, and crying for something new.

Unfortunately, we aren't the majority.

Just as unfortunately, most of us enjoy MMOing enough that we suck it up and pay a monthly sub to some game or another anyway, and don't vote with our feet.

It is easier and cheaper to develop a Stock MMO Template game. Stock MMO Template games sell, and tend to sell better than games which require some real thought or ask the player to interact with the game on a more meaningful level than pushing a few buttons to fire off abilities in combat (what this says about our culture is a bit sad, too...). Eventually (might have even already happened) we'll see the experienced gamer crowd grow to such a size that a 200k+ "game for vets" will be viable. But until they're sure they can get the numbers, producers look at the string of "deep, immersive, innovative, complex" games that have been small or failed completely, and then...

...they look at WOW. Since it costs about as much to develop a game for 20k players as it does to develop one for 10 million players, guess where they're going to sink their money? ;)

Frank Carney   (Aug 21, 2007 at 03:36 GMT)

I understand the frustration with games deciding if you hit something. The problem is a miss communication of what the whole battle is supposed to represent. One main problem is how many people here have actually played a pen and paper RPG? The whole hack is slash is a visual representation of something that has been hard in the past to represent with animations.
Example:
Player 1 attacks.
Player 2 successfully defends player one attack.
Player 1 attacks.
Player 2 is not successful in defending themselves and takes some damage.

In order to do this physically we need animations, a much more complicated control interface, and hopefully we don't end up with a "first person to swing wins" scenario. Otherwise whoever has a better ping rate wins. Try playing Quake3 Arena at 28.8K baud if you would like to see a game where whoever has the best ping rate wins too often.

While the concept of doing all the little nuances of an armed combat with animation and player control is possible, making it work online may be harder. You may end up sacrificing a lot to achieve this. Like maybe the first M in MMO.

Now, to achieve having your own world or land to defend you could do this with peer to peer networking. Perhaps your player goes around and tallies up a bunch of cash and possessions. This allows the character to play offline to purchase land that is stored on their own computer and deck it out. You could also set it up so only trusted users are allowed to enter this domain. The main problem this approach would create is cheating if people hack the data files. Although, a decent encryption scheme could lock it down. Then again, in order to play offline it would require going online to unlock the world then going back offline to adjust things in your world. Then you also run the risk of people coming in and trashing your world if they figure out how to get in.

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