How to find a development team? To prototype or not to prototype?

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Daniel Staub   (Nov 21, 2006 at 16:29 GMT)

From what I have seen in the GG community finding an experienced Torque Programmer is hard. This is due to the fact that most of them have their own projects. Your best bet is to detail what your vision for your project in the hope of catching the interest of an experienced Torque Programmer who would be willing to put his own project aside to work on yours.

After you have "The Vision" TM and the Lead Programmer getting the other parts of the team is less of a problem. Most people don't want to join a team that has only a guy with an idea. Hell, every one of us is a guy with an idea. A guy with an idea and money is better but most of us know that without an experienced Lead Programmer a project isn't going anywhere fast.

Once you can say "I have a Vision, a Lead Programmer, and funding" people will give you a second look. If you can add just one item of artwork for people to associate with the project then you should have no problems gathering a team.

Aun Taraseina   (Nov 21, 2006 at 16:47 GMT)

Hmm..

Your story is very interesting felt kinda bad for your bussniess.

Good luck here anyway.

Tony Richards   (Nov 21, 2006 at 17:28 GMT)

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- How do we find a development team at a very low cost for a startup indie?

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Exactly what Daniel said. Unless you're a lead programmer or an artist, you're going to have a very difficult time building a team, even if you have money. You're up against convincing someone to give up their dream (or at least put it on hold for a bit) to implement your dream....

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- Create a business plan to drive what the team develops. (in progress)

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Great idea. Even if you're not wanting investors, it's always a good idea to have a biz plan.

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- Create a project plan (in progress)
- Create Business Requirements document (in progress)
- Create Software Requirements document (in progress)
- Create Architectural Solution document
- Create High Level Design document
- Create Low Level Design documents
- Give Low Level Design documents to development team

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Screeech... put on the breaks. None of these should be done until you have your team leads.

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- Wait for GG's Constructor to be released

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drool... I can't wait for it... and really, nobody should. It'll be out eventually and hopefully it'll be able to import .dif or .map files, but in the mean time you should go ahead and use whatever is out there. If you're waiting on tools, you'll always be waiting on tools.

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- Wait for GG's TorqueX to be released

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Like above, there's no reason to wait... if you're building a 2d game, grab TGB... if it's going to be a 3d game, go ahead and grab TGE, or at least the demo version. Anything you create for TGB or TGE will quite likely work with TorqueX.... and if it doesn't then it shouldn't be too difficult to port.

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- Development team creates software
- QA team tests software
- Create a website to allow users to download the software, marketing material, forumns, etc.
- Create installation program/scripts

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Somewhere in here you missed a few important items.

Develop art / asset pipeline -- Very important, and possibly can't be done without your lead artists in place.

Implement / install asset management and collaboration tools -- Also very important, and probably cannot be done without both your lead programmer and artist in place.

And most important of all....
Play test play test play test

If you're not play testing, distributing early alpha releases, etc all the way through your production, as soon as possible then you're in for a huge big gigantuan (insert more explicatives here) surprise.... things that seem fun on paper tend to turn out less fun than you'd originally thought... and some of the simplest things that might even be a bug or an accident turn out to be the most fun.... take Tribes and skiing as an example.... and Tribes: Vengeance and skiing too... T:V skiing sucked, T1 and arguably T2 skiing was awesome.

Quick suggestion... join a team, help someone out for a bit, learn a few things, complete a game or two, then start your own indie game development company. I know, hard advice to follow

Anyways, just my 2 cents.

edit typos
Edited on Nov 21, 2006 17:29 GMT

Brian Peal   (Nov 21, 2006 at 18:13 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

Thanks for the great advice guys. Unfortunately, joining another team is not an option. We have a few million dollars from investors waiting to be invested into the product and they hound us every other day to get in. So missing the opportunity is not an option.

As for waiting on the Constructor and TorqueX: We have to totally disagree with starting development on other toolsets only to migrate over. This may work for an indie who is self-financed.

The productivity and advantages of using these new products from GG overwhelms any benefits of having to have developers learn Quark and the various art pipeline tools and quarks of each. As my background as a C# development manager/architect, I can relate and quickly adopt TorqueX. The learning curve time to learn C?C++ and the possibly learning the code structure of TGE and TorqueX is not a best way to spend investor's money. From an investor point of view, waiting on these products is worth the wait as they will be the basis of our new product.

The core concept of our metaverse is the ability for users to create their own content so having Constructor integrated with TorqueX is a major bonus for our development timeline. I sure wish we were involved in the beta for these. (hint, hint)

We am willing to pay for developers. Heck, I even tried to hire GG to do the codeing. The problem is the same as problems in the business software development side. Time and materials verses feature based payments. We prefer to pay for completed features to be developed verses per hour. How do we ensure we are not overpaying by the hour for a junior developer to complete a task which a senior developer could do in half the cost/time?

Again, thanks you all for the great advice!

Daniel Staub   (Nov 21, 2006 at 18:28 GMT)

@Brian - I totally disagree with you on waiting for Constructor and TorqueX even with your plans.

Constructor is for the most part a level creation tool. You don't need it for it's intended purpose at all. Other tools can be used. Your team will not be at the point where they would be ready to integrate Constructor for quite some time, there is plenty they can work on before then.

C# vs. C++

My view as a programmer is that there are two parts to programming.
1) The logical problem solving mindset.
2) The Syntax.

Once you have developed #1 you are more then halfway there.

#2 depends on the language you are using. Once you have a bit of experience in 2 or more languages you can use any of them given a syntax bible.

My view is that waiting on TorqueX is not needed at all. You are going to want to do as much as you can in TorqueScript as you can and it will be the same in TGB \ TGE \ TorqueX.

The only reason to go with TorqueX is the Xbox 360. If that is not a target then stick with TGE.

Brian Peal   (Nov 21, 2006 at 18:55 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

@Daniel - I have to respectfully agree that we disagree.

In business software development teams, we hire developers first by the language required, second by skill set in the industry (i.e. medical, retail, etc.), and third by level of expertise. If I had to hire 15 C++ developers to start development only to have to pay to re-tool them for C# verses just waiting 45 days and hiring C# developers to start with, we would lose lots of money.

Sure we could start with C++ teams and teach them C#, but my experience (over 24 years in development with many different languages) has taught me that this is not always the best management decision from a cost perspective. In addition, XBOX360 is one of our target platforms.

At this time, I am not convinced that TorqueScript will be 100% portable to TorqueX as it appears that TorqueScript is based upon C/C++. In any case, we are not creating a typical game, so a majority of the features we need to create will be done against the source code. In fact, the bulk of our development efforts is on creating the tools required by the end-user as the metaverse will be 100% content created by them.

Of course, we all bring different experience to the table and comments are welcomed and appreciated.
Edited on Nov 21, 2006 19:00 GMT

Tony Richards   (Nov 21, 2006 at 19:10 GMT)

Why would you hire an artist that doesn't already know Quark or some other level creation / modeling tool?

Why would you hire a programmer that only knows C#?

Brian Peal   (Nov 21, 2006 at 19:25 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

@Tony - Hi Tony. There is very little to no need for any artists. It is up to the end users to create their own content. The only real need for an artist is for designs for screens used in tools and marketing. We need the developers for creation of new features/tools/modules such as land construction module, building construction module(aka Constructor), virtual object construction module (aka Constructor), city government module, money exchanges module, auction module, e-commerce module, player customization module, inventory management module, chat module, MMORPG style multi-server networking design, integration with Oracle RAC servers for database, etc.

Tony Richards   (Nov 21, 2006 at 19:33 GMT)

Ah, so you're making something more like Kaneva and not actually making a game.

www.kaneva.com/home.aspx
Edited on Nov 21, 2006 19:33 GMT

Daniel Staub   (Nov 21, 2006 at 19:51 GMT)

A quick tangent that has nothing to do with your project.

"In business software development teams, we hire developers first by the language required, second by skill set in the industry (i.e. medical, retail, etc.), and third by level of expertise."

Yep and the bugs the hell out of me and most other programmers I have worked with.

Most of the time the language they want the project done in has been chosen before bringing in the Lead Programmer and doesn't matter. I hate walking into a project and being told we have to use X tool or language and when we ask why the answer ends up being "We were told it is what the industry is moving to". If there is a valid reason for making us use tool X or language Y then fine.

Sorry. I needed to get that rant off my chest.

@Brain - OK, given that the Xbox 360 is a target for you, your experience with C#, and the fact that you plan on doing so much non-script work I can see how you would need to wait until TorqueX is out before bringing on anyone other then the Lead Programmer.

Vince Gee   (Nov 21, 2006 at 19:52 GMT)

Edited on Nov 21, 2006 19:55 GMT

Vince Gee   (Nov 21, 2006 at 19:54 GMT)

Edited on Nov 21, 2006 19:54 GMT

David .NfoCipher. Bunt   (Nov 22, 2006 at 00:25 GMT)

This could be why you're not having much luck finding people.
What you're describing is what most people come here to try to avoid.

First, you've got investors to please. While it's nice to have funding already set up, the "vision" is already set, expectations are made and the whole goal is to turn a profit or attract enough attention to get large corporate buyout lovin'. That's a traditional business model that people here try to avoid.

Second, you've already picked C# - reason - you want it on the xbox. Programmers *hate* it when you've already picked x,y,z tools for them. Did I mention we *hate* that?
As for the "wanting it on the xbox" - the 3d torque engine that currently works on xbox is written in c++.. Oh yes.
TorqueX will be 2d for an unspecified amount of time. There's no networking support for an unspecified amount of time. Unspecified amount of time is not something investors want to hear. You'd basically have to write all that stuff yourself or wait. Or, you could license the c++ engine that does run on xbox and start working.

Thrid, I'm not sure you'll be able to bundle constructor with every client. Besides the obvious licensing issues to be worked out, you'd have to modify it quite heavily to work in the client/server model you're describing. Also, not a golden arrow, so you'll basically have to write that yourself too.

Finally, having all those documents and check lists and things fit the corporate model, it just doesn't translate well. You've got a game idea - you need to make a quick dirty test app to try it out. There could be and probably are show stopping obsticles to be delt with before making plans on a grand scale.

As for finding a team, I'm sure you could contact some of these game programmer college factories and have 50 resumes in your inbox before morning. As for the project, it sounds interesting, but I'm seeing way too many red flags in these posts that would prevent me from having anything more than a passing interest. I'm guessing others are too and that might be part of the problem with man power.

Jeppie   (Nov 22, 2006 at 05:16 GMT)

Brian,

Just think, there was probably some shmuck 2 years ago that said "I'm gonna wait for constructor and TSE to start my project" too.

>> What you're describing is what most people come here to try to avoid.
Yea, no kidding brother. I was thinking the exact same thing. Hmm, lets see, short term contract, low pay, already have to be an expert in everything you're going to do so the learning angle is out the window. People not recognized for talent, only knowledge. Investors, high pressure. Sounds like the job I already have (or one I surely wouldn't want).
Edited on Nov 22, 2006 05:29 GMT

Thak   (Nov 22, 2006 at 08:03 GMT)

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In fact, the bulk of our development efforts is on creating the tools required by the end-user as the metaverse will be 100% content created by them.

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The Horror! :p I can only imagine what this would lead to... *shudders*

Also I don't think people would buy a product they need to create the content for themselves.
The modding community out there is large, but only the games that have already a lot of content get modded, because, thats what ya do, you take whats there and build on it. Hence: Mod.
Sounds to me like you are not providing anything except a framework, but at the same time will not allow users of the Framework to retain their copyright and make money off their own content.

So I would strongly advise you to invest in prefabricated content at least, so people have something they can use from the start.

Phil Carlisle   (Nov 22, 2006 at 11:27 GMT)

Thak: I think blockland proves exactly the opposite. User created worlds CAN work.

I like David's reply though, I think he has some rational argument.

At the end of the day, I'm ALWAYS concerned when people say they have investors for something, especially something that doesnt exist, but moreso something that hasnt even been prototyped and designed yet.

You have investors willing to shed millions on something so vague? You must be an expert at schmooze. But honestly, I'd feel happier working with someone who understood that game development ISNT business development. In business you are fullfilling a requirement. In games, you are doing the same, but the requirement is a lot more vague.

I still dont understand the idea of using C# here either. But i think David put that quite well.

Brian: It might seem like a lot of the responses are negative, but consider the target audience. If you want actually experienced developers who WILL complete your project with you, you have to understand that most of us have already worked FOR someone and for the most part, dont want to experience that again. I will *never* just work for someone without actually having some control over my own destiny again. It just doesnt work out (like youre experience with your previous business).

I'd suggest you actually try and find someone to help with design and prototyping. I'd suggest that you offer some payment (so you show you take the project seriously) and you also offer incentives in terms of interests in the final product.

The best thing you can do, is build a relationship over time with a few key people. Staffing a games company is a nightmare at the best of times, just trying to spend some investment money isnt going to help that.

At the end of the day, having investors who are prepared to invest in something they really havent got a clue about, scares me. It's good for you maybe, but I wouldnt bet my living on such a shaky setup.

Phil Carlisle   (Nov 22, 2006 at 11:28 GMT)

Oh, and on the prototyping front.. it absolutely DOES make sense to make a prototype. Fundamentally prototyping has been accepted as the best way to actually determine wether a game (or game like) product actually works.

Designs are useful, prototypes are essential.

Just look at almost all major developments these days. They ALL incorporate a good deal of prototyping. This is a reasonably recent innovation, in that these days publishers include prototype time in most project budgets. But imagine spore without the huge number of prototypes Will and his team made?? If its good enough for EA/Maxis...
Edited on Nov 22, 2006 11:30 GMT

Alan H   (Nov 22, 2006 at 15:40 GMT)

Hey Brian,

Are you talking about integrating Constructor into the game for the players to use to make their own content? Wouldn't that violate the licensing with Garage Games?

Brian Peal   (Nov 22, 2006 at 19:32 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

@Alan: Do you know something I don't know? As Constructor has not been released, what is the license for it? I remember in some blog post about Constructor where GG's long term goal is to incorporate it into TGE just like the other tools there today.
Edited on Nov 22, 2006 19:39 GMT

Brian Peal   (Nov 22, 2006 at 19:38 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

User created worlds have not only been widely used and liked by many. It is the core of SecondLife.com's model and they have been doing it for many, many years now.

Business ran game development is alive and very strong. Several companies such as Sony, Microsoft, EA and others are most likely running an software development life cycle (SDLC) approach to development of their products. I can assure you that the programmers in their companies do not get to choose what language or tools they want when they join the company.

David .NfoCipher. Bunt   (Nov 22, 2006 at 20:22 GMT)

>So I am pleading to the community for advise on how to find a development team which will deliver and at a price an indie can afford.

>Several companies such as Sony, Microsoft, EA and others are most likely running an software development life cycle (SDLC) approach to development of their products.

So here is where I get confused. You're asking indies to follow the same model as the big guys. Question is - are you offering big guy salaries? In the same story about having investors, you seem to want labor at indie rates.
Like I said, the people that could pull off a project of this scale are here my choice. If they wanted to work in the business ran game development environment, they'd already be there or came from there.

What exactly are you offering here? What are you planning to offer as the project grows? What sort of package do you have together that will attract the sort of developers you need for this project? This is one of those situations where you get what you pay for.

Alan H   (Nov 22, 2006 at 21:07 GMT)

@Brian - I was just asking the question about licensing. I wasn't implying that I know anything more than the general community.

Brian Peal   (Nov 22, 2006 at 22:56 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

@Alan - darn, we were hoping you knew when it would be released :-)

@David - Yes, we pay higher than indie rates and compensation as required on a per person basis. We just posted some job postings on GG today. More are to follow.

@All the negative helpers - The focus of this blog was to seek assitance from the community and it seems that was a very, very wrong way to look for help. We will now turn to recruiters as there is way to much negativity in this community! That's the way to spread the good word about indies. For those who are so negative, please do not apply as you already display a defeatist view. BTW, if you are all so against a commercial based licensing of Torque, maybe GG should remove the Commercial licensing?
Edited on Nov 22, 2006 22:58 GMT

Brian Peal   (Nov 24, 2006 at 03:13 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

To all: Appears that GG announced the release date for TorqueX as Dec 11, 2006.

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