Visions: The MMORPG with the Bible

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Tank Dork   (May 03, 2007 at 06:13 GMT)

When I first read the title I was sceptical. Biblical games are generally very core audience. Your vision approach though is a revolutionary idea to bring a Christian message to your player base without them feeling preached at, while still experiencing classic MMOG style gaming. I will be keeping an eye on this one.

Anton Bursch   (May 03, 2007 at 08:05 GMT)

Are you guys going to make money off of this? Please tell me you aren't. Tell me there are some decent people out there who are simply interested in creatively expressing their beliefs and who are not interested in making money from them. Tell me you guys aren't doing this for money. Right? You aren't selling christianity are you? You aren't exploiting it are you? This is just cool for you, right? You aren't trying to get rich off of people's beliefs are you? I don't have a fundemental problem with christianity. I do have a fundemental problem with people who try to sell it.

EDIT:

Good luck with you game. I don't mean to start a fight about whether or not one should exploit religion for money. I really hope you guys mean well and aren't trying to use religion to make money. I know, it's pretty much a business to rape anything, including relgion, for money, but, as an indie developer I hope you guys are better than that. If not, well, I suppose one more angle to make cash off christianity won't make much of a difference. Good luck.
Edited on May 03, 2007 08:12 GMT

Matt Huston   (May 03, 2007 at 08:12 GMT)

Looking good Mark.

I am sure Mark is putting in a lot of hard work, maybe even as a full-time job and you can't expect him to just work a full-time job for free. He is selling his game - it just happens to be influenced by Christianity. All games are influenced by something. I don't think a percentage of World of Warcraft sales are going to the "Save the Orcs" charity. Anyway, as he said, we don't want to start a debate about it here.

Dave Young   (May 03, 2007 at 09:47 GMT)

I know the team working on this and the motivation is far FAR from "trying to make money from Christianity". I sincerely hope that they make a great profit and enjoy the fruits of their labors, especially when it helps to keep the game running, expand upon the available Vision quests (which sound awesome!) and make it all it can be, one day expanding to a worldwide audience. All of which is near impossible to do with no funding. Not every business model is built around exploitation, though all of them include financial aspects. That's the reality of running an organization.

Michael Perry   (May 03, 2007 at 13:00 GMT)

A very refreshing approach on game creation based on a major religion. I'm so used to seeing "Moses Adventures" or "Guide-the-generic-sprite-into-another-generic-sprite-and-call-it-The Ark." kind of games.

This is quite an ambitious project, which is my favorite kind =).

You explained your concept fairly well, but I have a question or two based on the following quotes:

Quote:

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Characters will live the life of a historical person and deal with the day to day tasks of life. There has already been hundreds (if not thousands) of hours of research have been done in an attempt to re-create the time as historically accurate as possible, given the availability of information.

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Quote:

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Now, what about the Bible part? That is where the game gets its name. Through "vision" quests, the player will go back in time (alone or in groups) to re-live the events of the Bible.

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I understand the Bible concept, but could you elaborate more on the first quote?
I'm a big fan of historically accurate information portrayed in digital format (i.e. video games). Will you be covering the early structuring of Christianity and the struggles faced by those following and building the religion? As with most religions, when first founded they are considered a "cult", and often persecuted by political powers and more established theologies. Due to movies and books such as The Da Vinci Code and The Last Templar, it should be common knowledge that Christianity was not this magical religion founded and immediately accepted by the populace.

What is now chronologically accepted as being the second major branch in the Abrahamic religions, one can consider Christianity as being the middle child of the group, and its actual history apart from the Bible would be amazing to see and follow through a video game.

By the way, I can join in on the mutual feeling of growing out of the "lone Torque developer" mindset and feeling a part of something bigger, with many doors and assets opening up to you. "Tis a wonderful feeling."

Again, good luck and great work.
Edited on May 03, 2007 13:05 GMT

Bryan Stroebel   (May 03, 2007 at 14:17 GMT)

@Anton:

WTF? These guys are putting a lot of hard work into this project. I say charge everyone for it. Who made you the arbiter what christians should sell and not sell?

Mark Dynna   (May 03, 2007 at 14:48 GMT)

@Anton: I totally understand where you're coming from, but the argument against selling anything religious-based for money is far far too late. If you live in a major urban centre it shouldn't be difficult to find a store selling Bibles, Christian study books, music, bumper stickers, coffee mugs and any kind of product you can think of. Make no mistake, these products and stores are being successful as well. Also look at the commercial success of The Passion of the Christ, and The Nativity Story. The fact is, Christians are demanding Christian media content. I don't think our game is "exploiting" the religion. Our goal is to present:
1) The historical facts of early Christianity (as accurately as possible).
2) To present the stories and content of the Bible in a new and vibrant way.

When we have asked for feedback about our project at churches or from religious people we have heard nothing but encouragement. Christian parents want their kids playing video games with Christian content, and they are willing to pay for it.

Mark Dynna   (May 03, 2007 at 14:52 GMT)

Quote:

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Will you be covering the early structuring of Christianity and the struggles faced by those following and building the religion?

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Absolutely. Our intention with this game is not to take the history of early Christianity into the realm of "mysticism." It would be foolish to not deal with the very real struggles that early Christians had. One thing I realized I failed to mention: time.

The game will start in 100 AD, and the timeline will advance at a constant rate. Seasons will come and go, and years will roll on. As time advances, we will introduce real world historical events and allow the players to experience them and deal with them, just as the real people of that time did. Our overall design goal is to allow players to live and experience the history that they are playing in, and indeed, being a part of.

Ethan Groves   (May 03, 2007 at 15:00 GMT)

Anton has a valid point. If a developer intentionally makes a game to target a specific religious base, they are "using the religion to make money." But if the developer is making a game that has religious themes, they are using the game to express a religion. There is a difference. Let me say it again: I don't think they are trying to use the religion to make money, I think they are trying to use the game to express their religious beliefs.

Think of it this way. Would you expect a religious person to make a game that DIRECTLY OPPOSED THEIR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS? No! They are going to make a game that supports, shares, expresses their religion.

"Nuff said.


@Mark Dynna
I think you've got some real potential with your game.
BTW, you included the period, (that little black dot that comes at the end of sentences) in your link to your website. Your link should be: http://www.visionsgame.com/

Leroy Frederick   (May 03, 2007 at 15:03 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

First off, the project looks and sounds cool to me and should definetly be a breath of fresh air to the MMO market (at least in story/subject matter).

Regarding Anton's comment, the idea that anything that deals with Christian (or religious as you would put it) themes should not / cannot be a commercial venture is old fashioned and ignorant. You have to remember that some of the richest people in history where biblical characters (Joseph, Solomon, David etc) and they also dealt with trade and business. Also the Bible speaks a lot about dealing with finance and financial endeavours. Therefore I respectfully think the statement is somewhat irrelevant. (This is not meant to come across nasty or aggressive just in case it reads that way :0) )

Anyhow, I Look forward to seeing the future progress of this project!

Sparkling   (May 03, 2007 at 15:53 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

Excellent blog Mark. :) Thank you for taking the time to post this for our project! I think you've been lead programmer more like 3 months though. ;) I'm absolutely thrilled with the progress we've made since then! You're doing a great job!

@Anton - Please understand that we've already been working on this game for 3-4 years, that the goal is to make a different kind of game for a different kind of gamer, and that we have set aside several other "non-Christian" game ideas to focus on creating the Biblically founded game first. Yes, our promary goal is to reach people with a refreshing Christian game, to give gamers ana lternative to the bloodbath and mindless nonsense that is currently available in so many games today. And we are hoping that everyone who wants to play the game will be able to play the game, at least a little bit. But we anticipate heavy operating costs, not to mention a need to feed our children, and we're hoping that eventually the game will pay for itself and provide some extra to pay for our livlihoods. We have had over 65 people contribute *something* to the game in the past 4 years, we have an average of about 12-20 developers active at any given time, and these people deserve to be rewarded for their sacrifices to the game development. It's a HUGE game. Involving thousands of human hours of labor to create. It's not about exploiting Christianity, it's about glorifying God with our fruit of our labor, and living in the world (meaning we have to pay the bills demanded by this world) we have been born into. If you would like to look over our FAQ page on the website you'll see that in fact we are planning (of course the game isn't launched yet so it's not set in stone but this is our hope and our plan) to have a sliding scale payment plan to be able to accomodate even the most modest of budgets. And I am adamantly against the idea of paying cash for game items - I feel that DOES create an exploitation scenario where only people with deep pockets can succeed in the game. So no, we're making a game because we're passionate about the game. Not because of any ulterior motives. :) I hope this sets your mind at ease and will allow you to explore more of our website and the content of the game we are creating. :)

@Dave - Thanks for your friendship! It's great to have your encouragement and support! I'm so glad we met.

And just to affirm, yes this is very much intended to be an immersion into history. To experience life as it might have been like in the 2nd century. There will be bad guys, as well as games. There will be work to do, places to go, and people to see. And I chose the MMORPG format because it is my personal most favorite kind of game to play - the social factor makes all the difference in the world to me. Unfortunately, it is also the most difficult kind of game to make! But who wants to make a game they are not interested in playing? Not me. And I wanna play online with my friends.

Blessings to you all!
-Sparkling
Producer of Visions
http://www.visionsgame.com

Jay Verba   (May 03, 2007 at 17:01 GMT)

Interesting concept. I don't have a problem with religion, or even charging for it. My issue with what I've seen here is that it doesn't sound fun =( Not to be negative, but simply watching bible scenes in visions, or doing the daily tasks of life seems like poor fodder for a game. Maybe building an island in second life would suffice for the purpose of social networking?

Also, I imagine that a can of worms is inherent in trying to depict historical and biblical events since so many people disagree on the "facts." Is there some particular sect you are representing, like Catholicism or Born Again? Maybe including that in your title or tag-line would help your target audience self-select themselves and avoid some potentially disruptive conflicts?

All that being said, bravo for your effort and best of luck!

Anton Bursch   (May 03, 2007 at 17:06 GMT)

I wish good luck for anyone making a game.

I do live in the United States of America where it's 'ok' to have an opinion about religion. It's ok. I'm allowed. I'm not sueing them for fuck's sake. Sheesh. I'm not fucking Jack Thompson. If you want to make a product of people's religion, get used to debate, cause it comes with the territory. Personally, I said my bit and that's all I have to say. I am allowed to care about what sells in the name of my religion you know. And I am allowed to talk about it. Or am I?

But I don't really give a shit. I wish the guys making this good luck.

Mark Dynna   (May 03, 2007 at 17:18 GMT)

@Jay: I hear ya. We're working on getting the core gameplay elements going right now. After that we will be open to design tweaks to increase the "fun" factor.

Joshua Dallman   (May 03, 2007 at 18:38 GMT)

I haven't read this whole post or all the comments, but FYI this bible game was made using TGE and is out:

http://thedeliverancegame.com/

Quote:

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Deliverance by West Creek Studios. You've been summoned by the Creator of the Universe...To complete a dangerous mission. Are you worthy? Deliverance is a Bible-based, action-packed PC Computer Game that takes you on the suspenseful Exodus journey with Moses and Aaron of the Old Testament. You'll go face to face with Pharaoh, unleash deadly plagues, free the slaves...and part the Red Sea.

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It is cartoonish and campy and far from historically accurate which is disappointing. The one thing they did do right is not hit you over the head with religion, the game can be played and enjoyed by anyone.

A historically accurate game would appeal to me greatly, but not a Christian game. I once watched an hour long documentry on the History channel about the route that Moses took. Note that it was on the History channel and not a religious channel. The program was designed to appeal to anyone with an interest in history and was only indirectly religous. If a Christian game took this same approach and was historically accurate I would be intersted in it, because it's then no longer a Christian game but a history game. Just something to consider with regard to expanding audience and market.

Mark Dynna   (May 03, 2007 at 19:00 GMT)

That game looks really fun. Its a very different feel than what we're going for, however.

Arcanor   (May 04, 2007 at 01:47 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

Great work Mark. There's no reason for the bible to stay boring. This is a fantastic concept and you guys are really making the most of it.

I wish the Visions team much success!

Ajari Wilson   (May 04, 2007 at 13:56 GMT)

People make money on religion everyday. How is this any different than a set of DVDs with animated stories of Jesus, Moses, Adam and Eve, and David and Goliath each being sold for $19.95 at Wal-Mart, phone order, or the internet? So it's ok for these people to make money on religion but not Mark Dynna and his team? I don't get it.

Show me a church that doesn't pass the collection plate and then come back and tell Mark he's wrong for selling his product. This is nothing compared to the hundreds of years of corruption, rape, molestation, wars, slavery, and murders Christianity and religions in general has caused or by people who do it in the name of these religions.
Edited on May 04, 2007 13:59 GMT

Allyn "Mr_Bloodworth" Mcelrath   (May 04, 2007 at 15:48 GMT)

Good luck with your game. Just be prepared for some not so nice feedback from, well, every were.

Question: Are you going to be covering the centuries during which the Christian religion slaughtered any one not willing to convert? You know, the time period where the world was basically forced to throw out there own beliefs and converted to Christianity or were wiped out? I mean, you did say it was a historical game, or is it just a biblical game?


Again, good luck.
Edited on May 04, 2007 15:50 GMT

Mark Dynna   (May 04, 2007 at 16:07 GMT)

Well, the game will start at 100 AD. Right now we are planning to advance the time at 1 game day = 1 real hour. At that rate it will take 36,500 real hours (1,520.83 days, or 4.16 years) to get to 200 AD. So, if you're referring to the Middle Ages, it will take a long time to get there.

During our time Christians were not widely accepted, and quite often faced imprisonment or execution. Especially after the Jewish rebellion of 136, Emperor Hadrian began a nasty campaign aimed against the Jews and Christians.

It was not until Emperor Constantine's conversion to Christianity sometime in the 3rd century (not sure the exact date) that Christianity began to gain widespread acceptance.
Edited on May 04, 2007 16:08 GMT

Aaron E   (May 04, 2007 at 22:24 GMT)

Hi guys,

The following comments are not meant to fan the embers of religious debate, but to offer a slightly different perspective. This is a topic that I've pondered quite a bit and am curious what others think about it. Here goes . . .

After a fair amount of exposure to the text, I haven't read anything in the New Testament documents that encourages, condones or even winks at genocide, murder, rape, forcible conversions or many of the other unpleasant things that "Nominal Christians" have participated in over the centuries.

My guess is that those men (and women) had little understanding of the NT message and even less desire to discover it. In my mind, it would be great if those infamous "Christian" atrocities and their perpetrators could be identified, not by name of the religion they claimed, but by their *deviation* from that faith.

I admit that my understanding of the Christain faith is still limited, but from what I can tell, every footstep away from the example of Christ is another step toward his opposite. After enough of those errant steps, I suspect that the Christian label should no longer apply.

Even in a biological organism, cells that deviate too far from the DNA blueprint get a new name -- Cancer. What if individuals and groups who commit evil in the name of Christ were given similar names in the history books?

I can only imagine what it would be like if each crime committed in the name of Christianity were recorded in history as an attack on both its intended victims *and* the New Testament message of hope and forgiveness.

Mark Dynna   (May 04, 2007 at 22:30 GMT)

Excellently put Aaron. I agree wholly, and your words are filled with truth.

Alan H   (May 08, 2007 at 00:38 GMT)

@Anton - I've noticed that anytime over the years that Sparkling posted anything about Visions you have always been very negative. I find it curious since above you named Christianity as your religion in between cussing. If you want to discuss in private please feel free to email me.

Now, as someone who has been fleeced by so called Christians in the past and more recently having been involved with this game in the past. I've picked Sparkling's brain and asked her some hard and pointed questions and I feel I can say that this game is being developed with the right intentions. Sparkling has said many times in the past what her reasons are, I won't type them as I won't put words in her mouth, but her reasons are very altruistic. If it wasn't I would not have helped out.

It is silly to not expect the game to cost something, afterall, as an MMORPG it will require maintenance and staff.

I find it very interesting that the indie community cheers the latest shooter ripoff but when a truely unique game idea in a setting that isn't another alien invasion or post-apocalyptic comes along it is ripped on because it is focused on - gasp - Christian religion? Maybe if it were Muslim, or Buddist, or Hindu, or Zorastian or anything but "Christian" it would be okay? Would adding zombie and aliens stop the dissent?

By the way Anton, everyone is allowed an opinion, not just those who get upset when others don't agree with them.

@Aaron - you make good points sir. Many atrocities have been perpetrated by those who do so "in the name of God" that goes directly against the teachings of said religion. The inquisition, the crusades, jihads, etc, all are wrong and even more vile for using religion to justify their crimes. They are indeed cancers upon all that is good.

Anton Bursch   (May 08, 2007 at 20:47 GMT)

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Edited on May 08, 2007 21:34 GMT

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