by date
RPG, what does it mean?
RPG, what does it mean?
| Name: | Frank Carney |  |
|---|---|---|
| Date Posted: | Apr 01, 2007 | |
| Rating: |  5.0 out of 5 | |
| Public: | YES | |
| Comments: | YES | |
| RSS Feed: |  or Subscribe with  . | |
| Profile Page: | View profile page for Frank Carney |
Blog post
I have been thinking lately (a few years) about what it means to "role play". When I played pen and paper games with people I just "played" by acting out the player. However, most of the RPGs I have played have had nothing to do with "role playing" other than some vague fantasy connection that many RPGs embody.
Now, I am not disappointed with these games for what they are. They have all been fun, but I have found the most fun I have ever had playing a RPG has been in Morrowind. I still find myself going back to "play" a different way. The only time I have been disappointed in when the game presented self inconsistencies. For instance: I have found out I can steal weapons and armor in the game by creating an enchanted throwing dagger that will cause the NPC to become equipped with another weapon or armor piece temporarily. I thought, wow, I can go steal the super awesome "wraith guard" from Vivec himself (man god if you don't know) without killing him. Well, it turns out, I can't. Vivec is defined as a monster in the engine and cannot be stolen from. I don't know if this was intentional, but is slightly inconsistent. Now, this is not a complete disappointment because I can get a grand soul gem and capture this man god and use his essence to enchant something. If he were a regular NPC I could not do that. I also get bragging rights for beating him senseless with my bare fists. Hehe!
Now, back to why I like Morrowind better than say FFX or Dragon Warrior. I started a game once that I wanted to go to Solthsiem and build up my character before I do any missions on the mainland. So, I went to Solthsiem and built up my character before doing any missions on the mainland. That may sound simple, but most games will not let you do that. They restrict you from doing that by using a linear story. The story method is not my preferred way to play. Morrowind gives you a choice, and there are very few situations where they remove that choice.
This goes back to: What does RPG mean? To me it is about choice and how I am allowed to play or not play. Obviously the game world needs some rules to make it believable. Also, I would argue that there needs to be some story so that the player can "play" within bounds that make sense and gives some purpose to the game, but locking the player into story is not what I want from a RPG. I want to be try and play different roles in unique ways that are often beyond what the developers could have imagined in the first place.
So, I am starting to write up a design that embodies my desires for an RPG as I would like to see and play it. I hope to create a world that gives people choices about how they want to role play each character in the world. I am not sure what the final result will be, but I suspect the journey itself will make me go places I have never thought about.
Thanks for listening,
Frank
Now, I am not disappointed with these games for what they are. They have all been fun, but I have found the most fun I have ever had playing a RPG has been in Morrowind. I still find myself going back to "play" a different way. The only time I have been disappointed in when the game presented self inconsistencies. For instance: I have found out I can steal weapons and armor in the game by creating an enchanted throwing dagger that will cause the NPC to become equipped with another weapon or armor piece temporarily. I thought, wow, I can go steal the super awesome "wraith guard" from Vivec himself (man god if you don't know) without killing him. Well, it turns out, I can't. Vivec is defined as a monster in the engine and cannot be stolen from. I don't know if this was intentional, but is slightly inconsistent. Now, this is not a complete disappointment because I can get a grand soul gem and capture this man god and use his essence to enchant something. If he were a regular NPC I could not do that. I also get bragging rights for beating him senseless with my bare fists. Hehe!
Now, back to why I like Morrowind better than say FFX or Dragon Warrior. I started a game once that I wanted to go to Solthsiem and build up my character before I do any missions on the mainland. So, I went to Solthsiem and built up my character before doing any missions on the mainland. That may sound simple, but most games will not let you do that. They restrict you from doing that by using a linear story. The story method is not my preferred way to play. Morrowind gives you a choice, and there are very few situations where they remove that choice.
This goes back to: What does RPG mean? To me it is about choice and how I am allowed to play or not play. Obviously the game world needs some rules to make it believable. Also, I would argue that there needs to be some story so that the player can "play" within bounds that make sense and gives some purpose to the game, but locking the player into story is not what I want from a RPG. I want to be try and play different roles in unique ways that are often beyond what the developers could have imagined in the first place.
So, I am starting to write up a design that embodies my desires for an RPG as I would like to see and play it. I hope to create a world that gives people choices about how they want to role play each character in the world. I am not sure what the final result will be, but I suspect the journey itself will make me go places I have never thought about.
Thanks for listening,
Frank
Recent Blog Posts
| List: | 12/25/07 - Milestone Reached: Mission Launched from Database 12/24/07 - Creating Objects Without Creating Them 12/24/07 - Another Sqlite Blog 09/03/07 - SQLite is Fun! 08/20/07 - Playing House 07/05/07 - Getting burned out and coming back, again... 04/07/07 - Inputs, Inputs everywhere... 04/01/07 - RPG, what does it mean? |
|---|
Submit your own resources!| Kevin James (Apr 01, 2007 at 23:17 GMT) Resource Rating: 5 |
I also am a big Morrowind fan and have been playing and replaying the game for years. I think its biggest downfall is the generic and distant NPCs . . . the same monolouge is used over and over and over again.
I think many games today labeled as 'RPG' aren't anything near a RPG. Dark Messiah for instance. I love the game because of its innotvative and exciting combat, every fight is different, but its a First Person Shooter with elements of an RPG.
I'm waiting for Dark Messiah + Morrowind. Let me know when it gets here.
| Steve M (Apr 01, 2007 at 23:53 GMT) |
To me, an RPG is about escaping into the world of your character. I do prefer choice to being on rails so-to-speak. In Oblivion, you don't ever have to participate in the main story line if you don't want to. I enjoyed the freedom the game provided me. I tried Morrowind, but discovered the game too late and couldn't get passed the dated look.
Steve
Edited on Apr 02, 2007 15:57 GMT
| Kevin James (Apr 02, 2007 at 01:03 GMT) Resource Rating: 5 |
| Orion Elenzil (Apr 02, 2007 at 01:27 GMT) |
yes, if you happen to turn into a rock-mole then by god yes you can eat that +2 ring of protection and see your AC drop. it's amazing that something as technologically primitive nonetheless has room for so much player creativity.
| Jay Barnson (Apr 02, 2007 at 02:26 GMT) |
But Is It An RPG?
We're constantly fighting with the ideal versus the reality.
On the one hand, we know what we WANT an RPG to be, and what we instinctively feel it could be.
Then we've got the pen-and-paper RPG, which might come pretty close to the ideal depending upon the people that you are playing with.
And then we've got the computer games, which are a simulation-of-a-simulation-of-a-simulation.
| Vashner (Apr 02, 2007 at 04:37 GMT) Resource Rating: 5 |
Then came sony... then the dark ages of RPG's fell upon the gamers and they toiled under the glow of the nerfbat as it stole there armor, swords and billed there credit cards at the same time.
A poem.. (lol)
| Christopher Dapo (Apr 02, 2007 at 06:24 GMT) |
So I devised my own! And now, it seems it may happen sooner than even I had predicted. Only time will tell, and this time the possibilities will be endless!
I'll be looking for team members if you're interested.
@ Jay -
Simulation, Shmimulation! It's time to put the "Role" back in role-playing games!
- Ronixus
| J Sears (Apr 02, 2007 at 08:53 GMT) |
But there are a greater number of people who want to be themselves while leveling and building this character they are playing, sure if they are a rogue they will probably be sneaky when attacking and steal from people, if a warrior they will get up there in the combat. I know to most die hard rpg fans that wouldn't be rpg but to the largest section of the crowd that's how they want it.
That's why on every mmorpg you see they have 1-2 role playing servers and all the rest are be yourself.
I do agree that in most rpgs and mmorpgs the choices/freedoms are pretty limited. But I think this is for mainly 2 reasons, first is it's extremely hard to make up a game (especially an mmorpg where there has to be some kind of balance for the players so everyone stays happy) that can allow anything and have all actions cause changes in the world. That is an immense task. And secondly, this applies mostly to mmorpgs, is the problem of making sure that players can't ruin it for other players. Let's say you allow people to truly do anything so someone playing a rogue starts ambushing people and robbing them of all their stuff. Well most players arn't mature enough to understand that's part of the world. Also there's players who will abuse the system and start doing things purely to try and ruin it for other people (and yes we all know we have to deal with people who enjoy making others miserable in the real world but there's no code we can type in to keep them from being that way) so it's just a tough balance to find
But that being said I am all for someone who makes an rpg/mmorpg full of freedoms and choices and an actual involved and changing story, I just think that is a long time away from anyone getting close
| Leroy Frederick (Apr 02, 2007 at 13:49 GMT) |
For me, my favourite rpg of all time has to be FF7. Yes it's linear and very fixed story wise, but boy what a story, what characters and what gameplay!
I don't mind if the rpg I'm playing is played through the eyes of a pre-defined character provided the story, circumstances and situations the character is put in is interesting and combines enough elements of versatile gameplay and choice. If FF7's case for example, be able to find or miss materia (magic) and weapons, stealing/learning other creatures abilities (or was that 8?), the sub games (motorcycle chase, arcade etc) and many other classic set pieces!
Edited on Apr 02, 2007 13:49 GMT
| Kevin James (Apr 02, 2007 at 13:54 GMT) Resource Rating: 5 |
Quote:
But that being said I am all for someone who makes an rpg/mmorpg full of freedoms and choices and an actual involved and changing story, I just think that is a long time away from anyone getting close
I think the best chance for a game like that being made is in the indie world. Commercial companies are going to keep making what works and what gets money. I'm guessing that even the indie companies whose livilihood depends on making games wouldn't dare making a game as described above by J Sears.
So who does that leave? Loner hobby developers. But whats the chance of a lonewolf creating a game so revolutionary as a RPG where every choice has an imact on the world around you? A loner developer's best shot at it would be a 2D game.
Bottom Line: A loner hobbyist developer is the only likely canidate to create a 2D RPG game where every action has an impact on the world around them. Unless of course every gamer in the world refuses to buy all the generic RPGs thrown at them. The commercial companies may be interested then.
Edited on Apr 02, 2007 13:55 GMT
| Frank Carney (Apr 03, 2007 at 03:32 GMT) |
How to do this in Morrowind:
1. Build up illusion and mysticism skills.
2. Build a spell that the first component is calm humanoid and the second component is absorb health.
3. Meet intended victim and cast calm humanoid.
4. Bribe them up to max disposition. If this is an enemy humanoid (in a cave) then do not ever pull out a weapon, probe, or lock pick.
5. Cast the spell you made to calm humanoid and absorb health.
Maybe not as straight forward as say a spell called: vampiric embrace (you could name it that though), but you can play as a vampire that wins the affections of his victims. Congratulations, you just played as Count Dracula! How do you feel?
That is what I mean by RPG. Whether or not the game mechanics support it, the freedom to do the above steps in the simulation allow you to "play".
Orion,
Yes, nethack is awesome for what you are allowed to do.
Nethack excelled at allowing your imagination to fill in the details. However, I like the simulation. Especially the 3D simulation. There is nothing like being turned into a vampire and finding you can jump twice as high and are as strong as an ox. I guess in a sense I like RPG elements that allows freedom of role playing while having a simulation that has progressive freedom of ability (jumping, running, fighting, etc). Together that is a powerful combination that I think Morrowind nailed.
Kevin,
I agree that the NPCs could have been more exciting, but they were going for a different style I think. I think they were shooting for more of the "real" rather than something like Fable.
M-theory,
I haven't played Oblivion much. Of what I did play I was far more interested in moving a dead rat around watching its body slump all over the place. I made my sister practically puke because she thought I was so morbid as I was exploring the game mechanics. As far as game play I have not seen enough.
Jay,
While his writeup is interesting it fails my idea/criteria in that the character is not predefined by the game itself. Also, the idea that the game mechanics have to have a certain formularic approach is not really a good criteria in my opinion.
I will just have to see what is fun and try and improve upon the Morrowind model.
| Kevin James (Apr 03, 2007 at 14:51 GMT) Resource Rating: 5 |
Every person in this region says this: "blah blah blah", Every person in this city says this: "yahdah yahdah yahdah", and once you beat the game every NPC in the world says this: . . . well, you know what they say.
I think Bethesda was "going" for such a system, but in my opinion it was just a cop out. I'd venture to guess that only 10% or less of all the NPCs in Morrowind have personalities. They could have done better. Don't think that I have something against Morrowind, its actually one of my favorite games, I'm just . . . critiquing it.
I know what you mean by roleplaying in Morrowind, but I never felt like I was whatever I "roleplayed" was me. One time, I played as a Khajiit "Wildman". I ate only stuff from the outdoors, mushrooms, plants, etc, and wore nothing but pants. I ran around the countryside, clawing to death mudcrabs and whatnot until I got bored.
A half-naked Khajiit running around clawing to death mudcrabs is a pretty strange sight, huh? I think it all would have been worth it, if a local legend or even just a rumor was started about this wildman.
That idea makes me think of "Dwarf Fortress", an acsii game that is really quite amazing. One of the things that really impressed me about it was that there would be people talking about different named monsters that you killed while out on an adventure or whatever. I even found an embroidered lion leather backpack with art work on it reenacting a battle where one of my henchmen killed a named lion. (Keep in mind this is a text game)
Features such as that are a step in the right direction, and I wish I saw more of it in big name commercial games.
Thus endeth my spheel.
| Frank Carney (Apr 04, 2007 at 01:43 GMT) |
Yes, yes, YES! That is exactly the kind of thing I am talking about. Your example of the Wildman is excellent. The only time in Morrowind that I heard anything that I thought was related to what I was doing was this: I heard about a traveling mage that summons monsters and soul traps them. I thought they were talking about me, but I have no idea if they were or not. However, it made a connection to my gameplay (in my mind at least) and made me think the game had way more depth. I still do not know if it does or not, but I suspect not.
That is one of the improvements I would like to make. Hopefully I will be able to realize such a feature. Let me try and flesh this out. In order to validate the player's existence more feedback is necessary at the NPC level. A methodical way needs to be developed that the computer will evaluate the player's actions and provide appropriate commentary/action to validate the behavior. The actions by the player that are evaluated need to extend beyond prebuilt missions. Basically all behavior needs to have some sort of evaluation.
For instance:
Did you hear about the strange outlander who continually jumps up and down everywhere he goes?
This is something that was definitely missing from Morrowind. Good eye. This would allow for such observations that the player is: a ladies man, a brute, a scholar, an idiot, etc.
Thanks,
Frank
You must be a member and be logged in to either append comments or rate this resource.
