Grand Theft Ping Pong?

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Tom Bentz   (Mar 07, 2006 at 22:35 GMT)

Nice perspective. Makes it more clear why being independant is better than giving in to the darkside.

Ben Jones   (Mar 07, 2006 at 22:45 GMT)

ahahahahah... yeah ping pong will save them, too bad its not 1990 anymore...

Travis Wood   (Mar 07, 2006 at 22:53 GMT)

funny in a way......ya its a stupid company its its its.....[Rockstar]

Todd Pickens   (Mar 07, 2006 at 23:24 GMT)

Ping Pong, thats pretty damn funny.

I was contacted this past week by one of the "big" companies that is interested in me as a lead concept artist. There was a point when I would have jumped at it, but my attitude about game development vs quality of life has changed so much in the past couple of years that when I read the email I just sort of chuckled at the irony of the timing.

I made it through a few of those feast famine cycles in the industry, and I have watched many close friends lives get turned upside down or completely wrecked by it.

It would take one hell of an offer to get me to go back to that sort of life, and even then, it would be with a very definite goal of making it a short stay.

Matt Hughson   (Mar 07, 2006 at 23:28 GMT)

I'm actually pretty suprised at this point of view coming from someone from the indy game world. To me this seems like one of the most "indy" moves by a large game company in a while. Just a couple quotes that I think fit into that theory:

"We have always been a company that likes to take risks, and do things differently from everyone else. For us this does not just mean gangster films, or car chases or westerns (much as we still love them), but anything that we think is interesting and has not been successfully handled elsewhere in a videogame."

"The fascination is really with purity, on concentrating the entire power of the hardware on one activity to create a game that is precisely addictive in its focused simplicity."

"In terms of value for money we think the hundreds of hours of gameplay of Grand Theft Auto is probably worth more than the $50 price tag, but rather than pushing to increase the price of games, we'd rather keep on over-delivering on value."

I mean honestly, to me that sounds like it could have come straight from a company like PomPom or even Garage Games itself. To say that they are just acting deperate or that this is a last ditch effort, seems a little niave and even more counter productive. We've been saying for years how the big guys should take more lessons from the indy community, but then when they do, we razz and jeer them? I think the truth is we would rather see a big company fall using their bussiness model, rather than succeed using ours.

::quotes taken from this IGN interview
Edited on Mar 07, 2006 23:56 GMT

A   (Mar 07, 2006 at 23:31 GMT)

I usually don't comment on anyone's blogs except to give a compliment or encouragement, but this will be different.

I too find it a peculiar/funny/amused to see RockStar writing a Ping Pong game, but I think you're going a little over board with your cynical critism. Personally, I found Max Payne, GTA, and other games produced by RockStar to be top notch games, and I'm sure there are others who feel the same. I wonder what that number may be? Tens of thousands, millions(??). I wonder...

I don't think it's a laughing matter about companies going through lay offs. I'm sure you're laughing at the companies, but it sounds like you're laughing at the company and the people getting layed off. I'm sure many of these individuals have families to take care of, and probably go through some hardships. Is what you're dong a polite thing to do? I think it's sad.

I wonder if anyone else sees the irony in this blog -- someone with a Marble game laughing at another for making a PING PONG game.

My 2 cents.

Jordan   (Mar 07, 2006 at 23:39 GMT)

Yeah i'd have to agree with Matt on this. I havent played a rockstar game since GTA3, and after that they just seemed to be tired iterations of the same stuff. I was intrigued when i read they were doing this table tennis.

i like ping pong. I just hate how you need several people around to get a game going. And even then its only fun against people of comparable skill level. This would do away with that if it was done right. I wish it was on the revolution, seems like a good fit with the input device. And I don't really see how this is funny to so many people, if anything else it should be supported.

A   (Mar 07, 2006 at 23:41 GMT)

I just looked at the IGN interview provided by Matt, and man, that's looking awesome!!! It doesn't seem like a laughing matter to me:)

Andy Schatz   (Mar 07, 2006 at 23:56 GMT)

Quote:

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it seems to me that just a few years ago, when they were riding high on GTA, they were spouting all this crap about ... how they were going to change the game industry with adult titles, real stories, sex, and violence.

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...and they did. I'd say 50 percent of games released in the past 3 years have been inspired in some way by GTA3.

...dunno, Ping Pong sounds like fun to me! :)

Steven Peterson   (Mar 07, 2006 at 23:59 GMT)   Resource Rating: 4

um, so Jeff, after the bloodshed in your first paragraph, you wouldn't happen to have a list of pro-studios that are accepting resume's would you?

Actually, in all seriousness, I must be reading the wrong web-sites because I knew about the ping-pong but not about the layoffs (except for at LionHead..)

As for the rest of it - I also was amused, but i'm intrested to see what they come up with. One never knows... Good blog though. I bookmarked your site, looks like a good one to start watching! :-)

Paul /*Wedge*/ DElia   (Mar 08, 2006 at 00:02 GMT)

It's silly because... who the hell can't just go out and play ping pong in reality? This isn't like simulating big league baseball, or over the top skateboarding. I do know the high levels of ping pong are friggin' nuts, but I mean... seriously.

Todd Pickens   (Mar 08, 2006 at 00:38 GMT)

I think it is pretty damn funny. Lay offs are no laughing matter nor is the impact they have on lives of the people involved.

There are plenty of good reasons to make a Ping Pong game, its a valid idea and a marketable one. The last good thing Rock Star released was GTA 3, in my opinion. And it definitely did have an impact on the industry, some good some bad.

What is funny, is that its Rock Star who is making a ping pong game. It gave me a good laugh. Its sort of like the HALO crew making Barbie and Ken game, only funnier.

Barry Gallagher   (Mar 08, 2006 at 00:41 GMT)

...its Called TABLE TENNIS! ... and its a highly sophistimacated game.. with lots of subtlely.. from such diverse techniques as hitting the ball with the front of the bat contrasted with the technique of hitting the ball with the back of the bat..

[from a peeved ex table tennis player] :D


ps. did you know they made the regulation ball twice the size it used to be, purely so it would be easier to see on tv. It slowed the game down to half speed aswell which sux..

Matt Hughson   (Mar 08, 2006 at 00:43 GMT)

Well to be fair to Jeff, I don't think he was making a joke off all the layoffs. I work at EA (one of the studios that lost a lot of people last month), and I have to read through a lot of tripe about how funny it is that some of my friends lost their jobs, so I've gotten pretty good at spotting it :P I think he was more just setting the 'stage' for his argument: "Things are splitting at the seams, when the savour cometh: Ping-Pong".

@Paul - Well I could think of quite a few successful games that go against the grain of what you're saying. How bout a game where you move a marble around on basic forms of geometry :) I think the best games are the ones that take something real, and make it play like we wish it did in real life; to make the real seem surreal. To continue with the Marble Blast analogy, it's not that pushing a marble around is inherently fantastic, it's that Marble Blast makes it feel fantastic while working in the confines of what we (the player) deem plausible. I mean, it seems funny to me that we are forgetting that one of the first games to ever really capture the imagination of players was non other than Ping-Pong!

Jeff Tunnell   (Mar 08, 2006 at 00:46 GMT)

@Akio: It's our MISSION to make little games like Marble Blast. If an Indie wants to do Ping Pong, it makes total sense. It makes no sense for a company who's MISSION was to make huge adult themed games to jump to something like Ping Pong, no matter how next-generation it is.

There is no place in my blog that says this will be a crappy game. But, in fact, it can be the best Ping Pong game in the universe, and it makes no sense for Rockstar to be making it. To me, it sparks of desperation. Coming back after the fact and saying that they have always wanted to do games like this, is totally revisionist history.

-Jeff Tunnell, GG

Edit: Here is a little tidbit about the finances of Take Two out on the net today:

www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=15170

Edit#2: Oh yeah, Scot Miller, the Executive Producer/Owner of Max Payne agrees with me:

dukenukem.typepad.com/game_matters/2006/03/killing_a_brand.html
Edited on Mar 08, 2006 01:05 GMT

Magnus Blikstad   (Mar 08, 2006 at 01:08 GMT)

Quote:

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It makes no sense for a company who's MISSION was to make adult themed games to jump to something like Ping Pong.

---

(disclaimer: I haven't read all the comment above your last one yet, so I might have missed something. I'm too tired to do it right now. Will do tomorrow morning though =).

Anyway, I personally think it makes PERFECT sense. I don't see anything strange at all here. rockstar, just like any company, are in it to make a profit. And from that point of view there's absolutely nothing wrong with this. There's (relative) low risk involved in terms of cost to produce the game, and it could potentially sell quite well (it could sell nothing too, but I'm guessing the production costs for this are a spit in the ocean if you compare it to their other titles). So... makes perfect sense to me.

Steven Peterson   (Mar 08, 2006 at 01:27 GMT)   Resource Rating: 4

Quote:

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To me, it sparks of desperation.

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The feeling I got was not one of financial-desparation directly, but more their trying to "redeem" themselves in the eyes of the parents and "Walmarts" of the world; particularly after the whole hot-coffee debacal. It's like them saying "hey we're a ligitimit viable corporation like anyone else, and we can make good-wholesome family-appropriet content too!

Not that that makes it any better or more sincere but, oh-well...

--

hmmm.. sorry for the spelling, it's been along day of codeing...

Toby W. Allen   (Mar 08, 2006 at 02:19 GMT)

It kinda makes sense for Rockstar to do the Ping Pong, it's an untapped game really, it looks pretty good, and could be fun - somewhat of a competition to the street soccer series from what I've seen, in terms of street style. This also shows the departure from GTA which was about 70% of Take Two's sales, which is what analyst feared, as this doesn't give it diversity. Apparently the Rockstar guys like to play this, we'll see how far it goes. I'd like to see a Squash game or rock climbing.

Vashner   (Mar 08, 2006 at 03:22 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

The problem is wall street people that got spoiled from big Y2k IT spending and keep wanting those type of numbers. Intel is a good example. They have just completed a huge jump to nano tech stressed silicon IC's at 65. nm and people dumping stocks because of weaker than forcasted sales.

Just saying something incredible happend. Everytime Moore's law advanced we advance as human society technology wise. Impacting every industry, maybe suttle impacts but still. Anytime you can increase automation performance business advances.

This is like Lukes run in the death trench. It looked bad but it was glory in the end. Just keep on target and Torque is gonna own the world soon.

Mincetro   (Mar 08, 2006 at 03:23 GMT)

Rockstar had it's day, its share of doing just to get media attention, but it gets old after a decade.

They may have realised it was time to finally move on.

Joe Rossi   (Mar 08, 2006 at 05:57 GMT)

It must be a way to joke with everyone. Ping pong has got to be the starkest contrast to GTA.

They can't be doing it to make profit. I don't see how they'll sell enough copies to make it worthwhile. But who knows, maybe they'll add some adult-themed secrets in there to make it interesting ;)

Tom Bentz   (Mar 08, 2006 at 06:59 GMT)

Maybe it will be an adult themed Ping pong game. There will be a radio with gangsta rap playing, hot strippers trying to distract you from hitting the ball, and if you dont like your opponent you can smash his hands with your paddle. It will be a ping pong game with so many levels and will be so challenging that it will seem to go on forever and ever. You will get more bang for your buck and will be worth well more than the $50 you spend on it.

Nauris Krauze   (Mar 08, 2006 at 07:40 GMT)

I dunno. It makes perfect sense to me, frankly. It must be damn hard to get rid of the GTA-stigma. I mean, whenever speculation ensues about what Rockstar is going to do next, you hear "GTA in Tokyo", "no, GTA in future, man!", Well, they slapped everyone in face in typical Rockstar fashion with this announcement. I have no great interest in sports games and table tennis, but I actually expect them to revitalize the sports genre which has become quite exhausted lately.

And yeh, making good table tennis game would make perfect sense for indie, the thing is, though, no indie has done it. Why? It sure wouldnt be easy undertaking because of the speed of the game, I`m actually mildly interested in how they are going about the controls of the thing.

I think we simply have started thinking about Rockstar as that "pimp-killing-sims" developer and they are trying to distance themselves and show that they are *game* developers foremost which means they can undertake whatever the hell they want. I`d also guess that their plans of table tennis game threw marketing suits into cardiac arrest. All *they* would want is GTA-in-Tokyo. No! GTA-in-future!
Edited on Mar 08, 2006 07:41 GMT

Hokuto   (Mar 08, 2006 at 08:47 GMT)

Well, one thing to think about is... do we really want big companies making indie(type) ( or even casual-type) of games taking business and space away from true indie/small comapnies?

(went to visit the ign page)
Actually looking at those screenshots, it doen't look like they are making an indie-type of game... you can still make yourown indie version... no problem :)
Edited on Mar 08, 2006 08:50 GMT

Nauris Krauze   (Mar 08, 2006 at 10:56 GMT)

Well, Hokuto, its doesnt really matter what we want , does it? If bigger player decides he wants to play in your playground, you just have to come up with something new and more interesting. That`s your Tao of Indie, so to speak :)
What you going to do- lobby laws that force big companies to stick to tired FPS and RTS genres? They`re pretty good at it as it is :)

Hokuto   (Mar 08, 2006 at 12:15 GMT)

never mind..

Dee   (Mar 08, 2006 at 13:06 GMT)

Table Tennis .... Rockstar .... he he he ......

Terry   (Mar 08, 2006 at 14:16 GMT)

I would just have to say that money is money and market is market. I came to GG just over a year ago, and when I purchased my first Torque license I remember reading somewhere that 2D games would not be accepted. Can't remember the exact verbage, but something about them being old style and inferior. This is a 3D world.

And now we have TGB. Why? Because it works, there seems to be a market for it, and it appears to be fun. Primarily, it sells and creates a revenue stream. As much as we like to tout the word "Indie", most of us would still like to make a buck. Now 2D is a good thing. I'm not sure about "revisionist history", but I'll try to produce and sell whatever might be hot at the time. Or what I hope might be.

50 years ago a lot of people laughed at hula-hoops, and a few years later snickering people said who would pay money for a plain old rock with a name. We still laugh, but those people were in the right place at the right time with the right idea (product). Which, I think, is precisely why GG is here at this point in time. I'm going to wait to call it an odd move for RockStar until I see where it goes. If they sell a million, it makes it damned hard to laugh...

Greg Findlay   (Mar 08, 2006 at 14:18 GMT)

I'm with Jeff, this is a really stupid move by Rockstar. When I think of Rockstar I think mature extreme games which like both Jeff and Scott Miller mention as being good for branding. Yes, people can have a knee jerk reaction to Rockstar but do you think those are the people who would buy Rockstar games in the first place? They should be using the bad boy rep to their advantage, they always have in the past. This is just spoiling their brand.

Stefan Lundmark   (Mar 08, 2006 at 14:29 GMT)

I agree with Terry, really good point.

X-Tatic   (Mar 08, 2006 at 14:57 GMT)

Although I understand the branding argument, im still take Terry's pov on this whole thing.
Edited on Mar 08, 2006 14:58 GMT

Jeff Tunnell   (Mar 08, 2006 at 16:51 GMT)

@Terry: Just to make it VERY clear. GarageGames never said it wanted only 3D games. As a matter of fact, I personally, have never liked 3D games as much as 2D games. You can look at our publishing page, but here is a quote:

Quote:

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Our standards are simple: we are looking for FUN games.

---

In fact, one of the first games we published was 2D. We did have harsh words about knock offs, but not 2D.

@All: I am surprised that so many of you don't understand the irony of this move by Rockstar. One thing that I need to clear up: I don't care if Rockstar or any other company wants to make a game that is normally in the indie space. Our success does not depend on what they do or don't do. They have a perfect right to make money. But, will the money they make replace the loss of brand image? Just take a quick look at their web page and tell me where the Ping Pong game fits in. Do they put it next to the hooker or the Gansta? Hmm... maybe the trained killer or the bounty hunter.

Part of the reason I even bring this up has to do with the tremendous amount of hubris Rockstar had when GTA was first flying high. They made huge accusations towards the rest of the industry about how clueless everybody in the game industry was. Many of you are not understanding the irony, but I love it.

One last parting comment from me. Some of you may not understand this, but if you are running huge studio who's mission in life is to do make hard edged, adult products, the industry is turning rough, and you wake up one day and the best shot you can take is Ping Pong, then you screwed up somewhere along the way.

-Jeff Tunnell, GG

edit: sp
Edited on Mar 08, 2006 17:12 GMT

Phil Carlisle   (Mar 08, 2006 at 18:24 GMT)

Hmm, it makes you wonder if its going to end up as XXX extreme table tennis!

Man, that is some freaky decision making going on there. I think someone at the top of the company has been given too much of a free reign there somehow. If I were an investor in that company, I'd have been chewing the guy a new one right about now.

I was in a position to watch this happen about 10 years ago when Team17 were in a very good position, having gotten a bunch of cash for Worms 1. We were in a new department (online games) and were casting around for "the" online game to create. Our MD suggested "milk race" because he was interested in that sport. Of course if you analyse it, its a completely stupid idea for Team17's audience. But if you were not a good manager, you'd have just done it "because the MD said so". I think maybe this is the case?

I see it that basically Sam or whoever has taken a shine to doing his favourite sport as a game and somehow people have caved in and gone with it.

Frankly, whoever greenlighted this baby should be shot. Good game or no, you just dont mess with your market that much. They would have been better just selling it under the take two banner as another property rather than selling it as an R* game.

But its a bizarre old business aint it. :)

BTW: EA sacks its bottom 5% everytime they get a profits warning. Not exactly a rarity.

John McArthur   (Mar 08, 2006 at 19:21 GMT)

Just some random thoughts:
1. I guess it would be like a rockstar, like Ozzy, one day wants to make a pop song? Its kinda silly.

2. If EA and every other AAA publisher is going to move in on the 'arcade' themed games, is it more foolish to not get in on the action?

3. Of all the games? Wasnt ping pong the FIRST digital game. Weird/Strange decision. Sounds fishy, like does rockstar really mean it or they just making a statement about all the publishers getting into the arcade scene. I dont know.

@ Jeff: What is the reference point(link) for rockstar doing ping pong? thanks.

- john

Todd Pickens   (Mar 08, 2006 at 19:39 GMT)

Since this seems to be so popular, I thought I would add a little fresh meat to the pot.

Here is an Indi doing something cool with an old idea he calls it "PLASMA PONG"

www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=378340

Nauris Krauze   (Mar 08, 2006 at 20:52 GMT)

What`s with the forceful branding? By that logic Origin should have sticked to fantasy RPGs and never made a space sim. Or...err...Dynamix stuck to sci-fi robot simulators and never done The Incredible Machine or Trophy Bass.
Personally I`d hate to make the same game all over again all my life.

Jeremy Alessi   (Mar 09, 2006 at 00:47 GMT)

I see the irony of the situation. There's nothing inherently wrong with them making any game they want. However, it's a bit ironic that they jacked the industry up so high ... and let's face it GTA is part of the reason development costs (among other issues like social concerns) began to soar with all it's content, big name voice acting, and grandiose theme.

Now because they've pushed the industry and players up against a wall ... it's ironic that the direction they are pushing next is the subtle, small, and fun direction. Nothing wrong with it ... just a far cry from where they were pushing everyone a few years ago. I think Jeff is somewhat excited about this because he was able to see this trend coming well before GTA 3 was even released. Now, he sits poised to dominate this new era of more subtle, small, and plain old fun titles. Perhaps the cynicism comes because it's annoying that a larger company like Rockstar could come in and sweep the space that Jeff's been working so hard to create for the past 6 years.
Edited on Mar 09, 2006 00:48 GMT

Jonathan Rose   (Mar 09, 2006 at 01:37 GMT)

To be perfectly fair, GTA3 and up did make boatloads of money.

Further, I don't believe there is a ping pong game out there that actually resembles a real game of ping pong.
Edited on Mar 09, 2006 01:39 GMT

Jeff Wilkinson   (Mar 09, 2006 at 02:05 GMT)

I remember Jeff or someone from the garage that in one of your posts when dynamix made the tribes engine you also used the same engine for different games like the fishing/hunting games witch helped greatly in the funding of dynamix and did sell quite well so it could be just rockstar is just trying a diffrent avenue, On a side note I work at a retail store and I notice that there are more people buying fun short games like the popcap games.
Edited on Mar 09, 2006 02:05 GMT

Anton Bursch   (Mar 09, 2006 at 04:44 GMT)

Ping Pong by Rockstar. Yeah. And Maria Carey really wanted to make art when she posed nude. ;) I gotcha.

I can see it now:

Quote:

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Terror erupted in a middle school in Vermont when a 13 year old and a 14 year old snuck ping pong paddles into the lunch room and using a home made ball of wadded paper plate the student played 6 rounds of ping pong on the top of a lunch table while dozens of fellow students stood immobilized in shock. The attack ended abrubtly when a janitor at the school jumped in front of the ping pong ball stopping the game. Security guards then tackled the student ping pong players and held them until the police arrived.

When asked, one of the ping pong players stated that he had learned to play ping pong at home with his parents. The parents of the student denied teaching their child ping pong but admitted to allowing the child to purchase the Ping Pong video game. The parents of many of the students trapped in the lunch room during the attack are forming a class action lawsuit against the Ping Pong game developers, Rockstar.

---

Jeff Tunnell   (Mar 09, 2006 at 06:47 GMT)

Make no mistake. I am absolutely not worried about Rockstar coming into the market for small games. Their product will be in a box and cost $40-60. That is not our market.
Edited on Mar 09, 2006 06:49 GMT

Toby W. Allen   (Mar 09, 2006 at 13:56 GMT)

This article shows that T2 is still too reliant on Rockstar's GTA series, of which the last one didn't get the sales. http://www.totalvideogames.com/news/Take-Two_Release_First_Quarter_Results_9459_0_0.htm

Noah Dyer   (Mar 13, 2006 at 20:09 GMT)

It's definitely ironic. But even if they're eating humble pie in the name of profit, is this the game to do it with? I might pay $40-$60 for a ping pong game on the Revolution (if the controller could succesfully mimick a paddle), but I really doubt I'll be able to see that much value if it's for the 360 or PS3. I'm not a big sports game fan in the first place, but does anyone besides Forest Gump want to play 30 years in ping pong career mode for the fun of it, or even to unlock a 100 point achievment? ;) For indies its all about the fun and using limited resources wisely. Rockstars budget may be big, but its still limited. I'm pretty sure the budget for this game would be better spent on something else, be it in line with Rockstar's current brand or a total paradigm shift like Ping Pong.

Alan H   (Mar 23, 2006 at 18:06 GMT)

Perhaps Rockstar will include character nudity and sexual themes in tournament mode.

I hated hearing about the layoffs and such but it is similar to what is happening in the movie industry. The consumer is getting pretty savy and is not buying the pure crap anymore and the industry hasn't figured that out yet.

It's like the post Y2K layoffs after the millenium craze. It's nothing more than market correction.

The pendelum is just swining back the other way and like a pendelum must, it will eventually change directions again.

CSMP   (Jan 04, 2008 at 14:01 GMT)

lol @ Tom Bentz

"Maybe it will be an adult themed Ping pong game. There will be a radio with gangsta rap playing, hot strippers trying to distract you from hitting the ball, and if you dont like your opponent you can smash his hands with your paddle. It will be a ping pong game with so many levels and will be so challenging that it will seem to go on forever and ever. You will get more bang for your buck and will be worth well more than the $50 you spend on it"

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